Can you uninstall pre-installed software?

[pmgibson]

On WM5, is it possible to uninstall or remove the pre-installed software?

I'm thinking about all the stuff on the expected AT&T 8925 -- most of it is stuff I'd not be interested in, but I'd really like to be able to reclaim that ROM.

[schmenge]

On WM5, is it possible to uninstall or remove the pre-installed software?

I'm thinking about all the stuff on the expected AT&T 8925 -- most of it is stuff I'd not be interested in, but I'd really like to be able to reclaim that ROM.

Generally speaking you cannot uninstall from ROM. You could do a hard reset and when the routine to install those programs starts executing again, do another reset and nothing will install. You will have to go through and manually configure things like GPRS/Edge as that is also setup during that phase. But since the files are in ROM you can't easily reclaim that space for anything anyway.

[pmgibson]

But since the files are in ROM you can't easily reclaim that space for anything anyway.

But I thought the ROM was used for installing programs -- you know, the things I actually want instead of the things AT&T wants me to want. :D

Are there two kinds of ROM? Again, I feel like I'm missing something.

Appreciate the education you guys are giving me. :)

[schmenge]

First, my disclaimer. I may be all wrong on this; it wouldn't be the first time. :) But here is my understanding (and since WM5 uses persistent storage, this may be a little off.

Your devices comes with RAM and ROM. ROM is Read Only Memory and this is where the OS, and the provider customization resides. You have to "flash" to install to this. RAM is for you and the OS divides this into Storage Memory and Program Memory. Storage Memory is where you store programs (although I try and install everything but plugins to a SD card) and Program Memory is where the programs run when active.

There are probably programs out there that allow you to install things to ROM, but I am not aware of any and just leave it alone.

[pmgibson]

Hmmmm.

My x51v shows (on the memory management screen):

Storage = 195.01 MB total, 158.71MB in use, 36.31MB Free

Program = 113.45MB total, 32.48MB in use, 81.00MB Free

The Dell specs are 256Mb ROM and 64Mb RAM. I had PPCTechs upgrade my RAM to 128Mb.

So I *think* all the programs that I've added to the system went into ROM. I *think*. Based on that I figured, if I could install to it why can't I uninstall pre-installed stuff from it.

So I'm still missing / misunderstanding something.

Thanks folks.

[schmenge]

The memory screen does not show space in ROM, only the Program and Storage memory. Maybe an easier way to look at it is to go to the Uninstall Programs setting. If a program is listed there, you can uninstall it.

[applejosh]

On WM5 devices, RAM is completely dedicated to running programs (which is why there is only 64MB of real RAM in just about any devices nowadays). The file system is kept in FlashRAM (which is why filesystem operations are generally slower in WM5 devices). From what I understand, the FlashRAM is divided up between the OS (and factory installed stuff) and user accessible space for installing programs. I also think that the OS/factory install stuff is an image, and not part of an edit capable filesystem. The analogy I use (and I could be completely wrong on this) is that the OS/factory image is like a CD-ROM image (or .iso file). You can see the individual files, but you can't selectively remove files (at least not without software tools specially created for the job). (Note: my (maybe inaccurate) analogy is not about UDF filesystems on CD-RW's but rather read only iso filesystems.)

Now there might be tools out there that can bust up the ROM images, but I don't know what they are, and I'm relatively certain that they are probably not for the inexperienced. There are some forums somewhere (xda-developers?) that create ROM images for their devices. Not sure if the tools they use could be used on any WM5 device, though.

[pmgibson]

The memory screen does not show space in ROM, only the Program and Storage memory. Maybe an easier way to look at it is to go to the Uninstall Programs setting. If a program is listed there, you can uninstall it.

This is the part I don't get then. If the memory screen is not showing ROM, then why does my x51v show 195Mb total? That's way more than the RAM available, even after the upgrade from 64Mb to 128Mb.

[applejosh]

I think schmenge is stuck on WM2003se and lower OS's. WM5's memory structure completely changed.

The memory screen on WM5+ devices will show the part of ROM (or FlashRAM or whatever you want to call it) that is usable to the user in the Storage column. It does not show what the OS/factory "image" takes up. The Program column shows the real RAM (minus what the OS itself uses, which is why, on my 64MB RAM device, I'm only showing a total of 49.40MB).

These webpages have a basic overview of WM5. If time permits today, I might be able to find more in depth descriptions.

http://www.pocketpcfaq.com/reviews/windowsmobile5.0/overview.htm
http://www.pocketpcfaq.com/faqs/5.0/memory_management.htm

[schmenge]

I knew that WM5 changed the rules somewhat, but wasn't sure exactly how. Assuming you could delete items from ROM, which I still don't think you can do, would the amount of storage memory increase or is a certain amount of space set aside?

[applejosh]

I'm going to guess that it depends on the device. I've heard (and have absolutely nothing to back this up) that some devices have two separate ROM's. One for the OS/factory install (I've heard the Treo's have this arrangement) using a faster read-centric ROM with execute in place capability, and another for the filesystem which has better write capabilities. Applying a smaller ROM won't do much here as anything left over in that ROM area is probably not accessible. On other devices, such as my Dell, I believe it is all one contiguous ROM area with whatever the ROM image does not take up being left over for the user area filesystem.

Again, this is just me guessing. I am not an expert on the inner workings of these things. Do not take my words as necessarily accurate on the subject.

If pmgibson is intent on freeing up a little bit of space, then he/she will probably have to do more research on sites/forums that focus on ROM image manipulation, etc. It's not going to be an easy process. Any warranties are certain to be voided. And it's going to be an "at your own risk" type situation.

[pmgibson]

If pmgibson is intent on freeing up a little bit of space, then he/she will probably have to do more research on sites/forums that focus on ROM image manipulation, etc. It's not going to be an easy process. Any warranties are certain to be voided. And it's going to be an "at your own risk" type situation.

I appreciate the information folks. (By the way, pmgibson is a she.)

I'm not going to get into heavy duty hacking to free up memory. My question started because I just wanted to know if there was a good way to not install all the stuff that it appears that AT&T is going to install on the 8925.

I was really looking for information that would help me decide if I should wait for the HTC product (not the AT&T version). And you all helped with that. I am going to wait and see how this shakes out.

Thanks for your help.

[jadesse]

Generally the programs that are preinstalled on a device & are part of the ROM cannot be uninstalled. There is the ROM that is used for storage & the part of the ROM where the OS is installed. The Device specs may say that your device has 256 MB of ROM. Depending on the device a portion of that is dedicated solely to the ROM image of the OS, drivers, & other programs that may be provided by the manufacture. When you receive your device you will not have full use of 256 MB to install programs. The only programs that you will be able to uninstall will be listed in the remove programs list.

The only way to remove those unwanted programs would be to have the ROM reprogrammed without them. Legally that would probably have to come form the manufacture.

[applejosh]

I'm not going to get into heavy duty hacking to free up memory. My question started because I just wanted to know if there was a good way to not install all the stuff that it appears that AT&T is going to install on the 8925.

I was really looking for information that would help me decide if I should wait for the HTC product (not the AT&T version). And you all helped with that. I am going to wait and see how this shakes out.

Thanks for your help.

I feel your pain. I'm kind of a purist in these things. (When setting up computers, I usually end up spending at least the first hour just uninstalling the junk they put on there.) Unfortunately, the PocketPC architecture is quite different from the PC, and manufacturers are able to force apps and unwanted "value-added" items upon their customers. Occasionally, the apps do appear in the Add/remove list (and are easily removed), but most of the time you're stuck with 'em.

Luckily, it looks like the 8925 is going to have plenty of storage ROM (256MB), so hopefully AT&T won't try to take all of that, and there will plenty of room left over for the end user. (Plus I always get a large memory card for whatever device I am using.)

Good luck.

[Nurhisham Hussein]

I'm not going to get into heavy duty hacking to free up memory. My question started because I just wanted to know if there was a good way to not install all the stuff that it appears that AT&T is going to install on the 8925.

If that's all your looking for, and not so much 'freeing' storage space, then schmenge's initial advice is the way to go. To reiterate: Do a hard reset, and just before the setup goes into installing AT&T's 'customizations', do a soft reset. This stops any extra custom programs from being installed, and you will be left with just the base OS. As noted, this means you'll have to set up connection settings manually (thankfully, not including GSM), but this is a fairly minor task.

As to the discussion on ROM and what goes into it: generally WM phone devices from a user perspective have three areas - OS image, Extended ROM (where all the carrier install programs reside), and Storage. It's only the last that can be seen and accessed by the user. Installed programs (including perversely any carrier customizations that already exist in the Extended ROM) and documents are allocated to the Storage area, unless you specify installation to a storage card.

Hacking is only a requisite if you want to increase the size of the Storage area by remove some or all of the cab files in extended ROM. In terms of the physical components, it's usually just a single chip, though I won't discount that Treos might a different physical setup.