Microsoft to XDA-Developers: Remove The ROMs

[Jon Westfall]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=294142' target='_blank'>http://forum.xda-developers.com/sho...ad.php?t=294142</a><br /><br /></div><i>"Ofcourse one can disagree over the severity of the problems caused by the availability of the images versus the impact to our community of simply removing everything. But at this point, we have no other option then to take down any and all ROM images that contain a Microsoft OS, although we still feel strongly this is a disservice not just to our own users but also to the larger community of mobile device developers and enthousiasts. But at the end of the day this is Microsoft's software and legally speaking, they are within their right to ask us to remove it. And even if there were legal ways to challenge this, we certainly do not feel like a protracted legal fight with Microsoft. They can probably afford more lawyers than we can."</i><br /><br />It's a sad day indeed in the developer community - a great resource for ROMs is about to be dismantled (Thankfully, XDA-Developers itself will still be around, just ROM-less). While many will undoubtedly be annoyed with MS for their choice to ask XDA-Devs to remove the ROMs, I'd like to point out a few reasons why I believe MS has decided to do so...<br /><br />1. They mention that <i>"We have received feedback from several sources on the software hosted by XDA-developers, including mobile operators with customers requesting support on “unofficial ROM images”</i>. What does this mean? Well, it means that XDA-Devs has gotten too popular - not just for for enthusiasts, but also for amateurs. Unfortunately, Amateurs install ROMs on their devices and then are informed that support will not be forthcoming from their equipment provider. This annoys novices (Who can't understand how the software that says "Microsoft" on it isn't supported), and causes headaches for OEMs.<br /><br />2. This should stop (or make it harder) for unscrupulous individual vendors from popping a new ROM on a device, promoting it on eBay as "With updated software unlocking great new features", and selling it to users who are really clueless about what a ROM is. This also lowers the resell value for everyone who sells their old devices - someone with a legit ROM will get a lower price than someone with a "souped-up" ROM. With WM6 now coming out, I can see this problem getting really bad - WM6 on devices sold through eBay that were never meant to have WM6 for a variety of reasons. Could be a messy situation.<br /><br />It's sad to see this resource go, but I think we all knew eventually it would be pulled. While it's annoying for the hard core enthusiasts, I believe it will be a positive move for the future of Windows Mobile in general. It's too bad that Microsoft can't just setup a repository of "development ROMs" that individuals who agree to using un-supported software can access...

[UCCOFFEE]

I think it is somehow pocket pc thoughts fault too .... since PPCT is too popular, and you put the Dopod D810 GPS enabled rom news on the front page....

Anyway, I ll miss xda-developers .....

[Jon Westfall]

I think it is somehow pocket pc thoughts fault too .... since PPCT is too popular, and you put the Dopod D810 GPS enabled rom news on the front page....

Anyway, I ll miss xda-developers .....

Well, we weren't exactly the only people on the net to carry that news ;)

And XDA-Developers isn't going away completely - just the ROMs. If the ROMs are the only thing you consider of worth at XDA-Developers, then you may want to poke around a bit more there!

[T-Will]

Would anyone happen to know if there's a WM6 ROM available for an iPaq 4100 series Pocket PC? I have a friend who may or may not be interested. :wink:

[JKingGrim]

Hopefully the windows update feature on WM6 will allow us to keep our OS's up to date just like we can with our PCs. Can the windows update program actually update the AKU of the OS, or will it be superficial updates?

[Sven Johannsen]

Can the windows update program actually update the AKU of the OS, or will it be superficial updates?It can. There has always been an interesting relationship between MS and those they sell (license) the OS too...the OEMs...not the consumer. So how much will actually be available via the update function remains to be seen.

[Paragon]

Can the windows update program actually update the AKU of the OS, or will it be superficial updates?It can. There has always been an interesting relationship between MS and those they sell (license) the OS too...the OEMs...not the consumer. So how much will actually be available via the update function remains to be seen.

Yeah, I was quite surprised to hear that the update feature was going to be in WM6. I hope it will turn out to be a positive feature that allows us to get OS updates from MS. So far any speculation on this has been that the feature is a direct link to Microsoft for updates. I'm not so sure that is the case. I think it fits in with present procedures if it is a function that is controled by the carriers, and the updates still come from them, but in a more efficient manner. Who knows? At least it is a baby step in the right direction.

As for xda-developers having to take down their ROMs.....BUMMER.

Dave

[bnycastro]

xda-dev's is a great place, i've learned a lot from the community there it's sad that the ROMs will have to go but i hope the community stays.

[Janak Parekh]

I'd like to point out a few reasons why I believe MS has decided to do so...
There's a much simpler reason, too. Cooked ROMs are a clear license violation and violate copyright laws. It's like distributing hacked-up copies of Vista. For better or worse, Microsoft's in their rights to do so.

--janak

[Darius Wey]

I think it is somehow pocket pc thoughts fault too .... since PPCT is too popular, and you put the Dopod D810 GPS enabled rom news on the front page....

Note that the GPS-enabled ROM was not cooked. It was an official ROM hosted on the Dopod servers, and it was posted as news for the Dopod D810 community. You weren't encouraged to flash a non-Dopod version of the Trinity with the Dopod ROM; in fact, Jon posted a disclaimer warning of the risks associated with such a procedure.

[paschott]

I'm definitely disappointed by this as the only way I'm likely to get a WM6 ROM for my Cingular 8125 is through a 3rd party. I don't see why any mobile phone vendor would have an incentive to provide WM6 upgrades (or even AKU 3.x) for devices that are now older and would rather encourage people to buy a new device in order to get that ROM.

I really wish that MS had treated PPC's/WM devices more like PCs - provide the OS, provide the people who buy the device with a way to upgrade it the way they want, including new OS's. Having us dependent on the device resellers means we will almost always be forced to buy new devices in order to get a significant upgrade.


As for XDA - I'll admit that the ROMs aren't the only reason to go there. They have a lot of good discussion on other topics as well, from backing up/restoring to hacking the registry, to troubleshooting some of the various annoyances with various devices and software editions. At least for the Wizard, there's a lot of good information about accessories and the like as well. I'll still visit regularly just to see what's going on with the various devices, though I doubt that the upgrade forums will be nearly as interesting now. At least it should cut down on the various "how do I" type requests that seemed to propagate so much, but I expect a lot more "please send me a link ..." requests. :)

-Pete

[stllhogan]

I'm definitely disappointed by this as the only way I'm likely to get a WM6 ROM for my Cingular 8125 is through a 3rd party. I don't see why any mobile phone vendor would have an incentive to provide WM6 upgrades (or even AKU 3.x) for devices that are now older and would rather encourage people to buy a new device in order to get that ROM.

As I understood (or would like to imagine) the reason HTC stepped out as more of a company in the last year was to offer support for those who discontinued the support for devices manufactured by them. Hopefully this will get ride of some of the past problems like Toshiba and Audiovox had. Where Toshiba would make a product and Audiovox would "support" and distribute it, I've never been impressed with Audiovox's support, seems like they drop it when they find it beneficial to themselves.

I never checked into the site before, not owning an Xda, but now I'm going to.

[ADBrown]

Would anyone happen to know if there's a WM6 ROM available for an iPaq 4100 series Pocket PC? I have a friend who may or may not be interested. :wink:

Definitely not. There isn't even a 2003 SE or 5.0 upgrade for the 4100s, official or not.

[ADBrown]

There's a much simpler reason, too. Cooked ROMs are a clear license violation and violate copyright laws. It's like distributing hacked-up copies of Vista.

No, it's not at all like that. For starters, it's nearly impossible to pirate Windows Mobile, since every device which can run it already has paid a license fee. The only way that would work is if there's a manufacturer software or upgrade which is being sold for cash, and how often does that happen? And even if it did, when have you ever seen such an upgrade posted on XDA-Devs?

Second, I'm not sure what you imagine a "cooked ROM" to be in this scenario, since 99% of what XDA-Devs did was to recombine freely distributed software and updates so that otherwise unsupported devices could take advantage of them.

While Microsoft may be within their legal rights, there's no rational reason for them alone to bother XDA-Developers.com. Frankly, I see this as Microsoft playing ball with the carriers, who don't want devices they've sold being modified to do more, or--gasp--having the useless crap that they preload removed. Cingular doesn't want it's 8525 users loading a clean ROM without the Cingular music and ringtone store being stamped on everything, and neither does any other carrier pushing their expensive services.

[JvanEkris]

Distribution of ROM images without permission of Microsoft is illegal as well, regardless of the end user having a licence. And the WM6 ROMs are a clear violation in any case (nobody has a licence yet).

Jaap

[Menneisyys]

I think it is somehow pocket pc thoughts fault too .... since PPCT is too popular, and you put the Dopod D810 GPS enabled rom news on the front page....

Anyway, I ll miss xda-developers .....

IMHO, you can rightfully install any non-cooked (and the given ROM is *not* cooked), official ROM on your Pocket PC. The new Dopod ROM, which does enable GPS, is in no way cooked - actually, the original XDA-Dev thread(s) linked in the official download sources to get it from.

And, show me a Trinity user that would *NOT* want to enable GPS in their device ;-) Particularly because this ROM update fixes / enhances a lot of other things (boot-in time after reset, SDHC support, slightly lower A2DP CPU usage etc)

[surur]

Its indeed tragic, and while we all know MS in in their rights, anyone who feels this is a positive move is deluded.

Surur

[Menneisyys]

BTW, the related xda-dev discussion is here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=294142

(worth a read)

[Menneisyys]

I think it is somehow pocket pc thoughts fault too .... since PPCT is too popular, and you put the Dopod D810 GPS enabled rom news on the front page....

Anyway, I ll miss xda-developers .....

IMHO, you can rightfully install any non-cooked (and the given ROM is *not* cooked), official ROM on your Pocket PC. The new Dopod ROM, which does enable GPS, is in no way cooked - actually, the original XDA-Dev thread(s) linked in the official download sources to get it from.

And, show me a Trinity user that would *NOT* want to enable GPS in their device ;-) Particularly because this ROM update fixes / enhances a lot of other things (boot-in time after reset, SDHC support, slightly lower A2DP CPU usage etc)

For example, it was because of the hackability of the Trinity that, when I had the chance to choose a device to be ordered / paid for by my employer, made me settle for the Trinity and the Windows Mobile platform in general. The close second was the Nokia N95 because of the seamless A2DP (which isn't really possible with the Trinity) and the GPS (and because I wanted an up-to-date, flashy, high-end Nokia phone to play with Symbian ;-) ). Without the XDA-Dev hack (the, then, only way to make the Trinity GPS-enabled - now HTC also promises an official ROM with GPS support), I wouldn't have recommended the Trinity over the N95. That is, it was (again) because of the excellent XDA-Dev folks that HTC could score another sold Trinity.

I think a LOT of other people have gone for the Trinity just for the GPS hackability, not just me.

[JKingGrim]

Can the windows update program actually update the AKU of the OS, or will it be superficial updates?It can. There has always been an interesting relationship between MS and those they sell (license) the OS too...the OEMs...not the consumer. So how much will actually be available via the update function remains to be seen.

Yeah, I was quite surprised to hear that the update feature was going to be in WM6. I hope it will turn out to be a positive feature that allows us to get OS updates from MS. So far any speculation on this has been that the feature is a direct link to Microsoft for updates. I'm not so sure that is the case. I think it fits in with present procedures if it is a function that is controled by the carriers, and the updates still come from them, but in a more efficient manner. Who knows? At least it is a baby step in the right direction.

As for xda-developers having to take down their ROMs.....BUMMER.

DaveIf microsoft has a way to directly deliver updates to me without going through my carrier, why should my carrier be allowed to stop them? That should be illegal for my carrier to prevent me from updating my OS. The carrier is selling my the service. They should have no say in what I do with my phone. I really hope WM6 users will be able to get aku updates in this way from now on. On my desktop PC, I can get updates straight from MS, without my hardware manufacturer or even my ISP intervening. Why should a handheld be any different. I really hope MS starts delivering AKU updates for WM6 in this fashion. I couldn't imagine my 6700 still on the factory ROM.

This is the one thing I hate about converged devices as opposed to just having a PDA. Its like Sprint thinks they own and can control what I can and cant do with my device. Its my d@mn pda, not sprint's.

[SteveHoward999]

If microsoft has a way to directly deliver updates to me without going through my carrier, why should my carrier be allowed to stop them? That should be illegal for my carrier to prevent me from updating my OS. The carrier is selling my the service. They should have no say in what I do with my phone.

Yeah but the problem is Corporate America has deeper pockets than you do. So tey shaft you every which-way and there's nothing you can do about it ... unless you find a way to update your ROM to a non-branded version ... ehem ... cough ...

[Paragon]

If microsoft has a way to directly deliver updates to me without going through my carrier, why should my carrier be allowed to stop them? That should be illegal for my carrier to prevent me from updating my OS.

Unfortunately that is wrong. Microsoft do not have the right to deal directly with us. We are not their customers. The OEMs and carriers are their customers. They buy the licences, and install them on devices we buy from them, not Microsoft.

First lesson in Business 101: Do NOT interfere with your customers, customers.

this update process will only happen with the carriers' approval. I wish it were different, but it's not.

[inteller]

There's a much simpler reason, too. Cooked ROMs are a clear license violation and violate copyright laws. It's like distributing hacked-up copies of Vista.

No, it's not at all like that. For starters, it's nearly impossible to pirate Windows Mobile, since every device which can run it already has paid a license fee. The only way that would work is if there's a manufacturer software or upgrade which is being sold for cash, and how often does that happen? And even if it did, when have you ever seen such an upgrade posted on XDA-Devs?

Second, I'm not sure what you imagine a "cooked ROM" to be in this scenario, since 99% of what XDA-Devs did was to recombine freely distributed software and updates so that otherwise unsupported devices could take advantage of them.

While Microsoft may be within their legal rights, there's no rational reason for them alone to bother XDA-Developers.com. Frankly, I see this as Microsoft playing ball with the carriers, who don't want devices they've sold being modified to do more, or--gasp--having the useless crap that they preload removed. Cingular doesn't want it's 8525 users loading a clean ROM without the Cingular music and ringtone store being stamped on everything, and neither does any other carrier pushing their expensive services.

and you know what I have to say to cingular and other carriers? **** you! There is a reason people cook roms to get rid of their crap....because its CRAP. No one forced Cingular to spend time making these useless customizations that DO NOTHING to improve the functionality of the device.

Microsoft could have cared less about XDA developers. I think they agreed in spirit with them. remember, XDA dev was founded in part by carriers unwillingness to provide upgrades to the original XDA. The other thing is XDA has proven that new OS fit on existing devices with a very small amount of developer resources....so it really blew the carrier argument that providing upgrades was not profitable OUT OF THE WATER.

Carriers, you all ****ing suck, and there will be an underground movement continue providing ROMs for units you refuse to upgrade. Your throwaway mentality has to stop. TO a certain degree XDA dev allowed that to happen.

[Paragon]

There's a much simpler reason, too. Cooked ROMs are a clear license violation and violate copyright laws. It's like distributing hacked-up copies of Vista.

No, it's not at all like that. For starters, it's nearly impossible to pirate Windows Mobile, since every device which can run it already has paid a license fee. .

Sorry, ADBrown, but you are wrong here. Just because I own a device with a version of WM5.0 doesn't give me the right to put any version I want on it. I have effectively bought and paid for a ROM that my carrier built and installed on my device. I do NOT have the right to install a ROM that another carrier has developed, that may have different function built into it.

If I'm Mr. TMobile and I spend my money to develop a ROM that has A2DP in it, and make it available to MY customers, I'm going to be exceptionally P'd off if Mr. ATT's customers are installing it on there devices. As well, if I'm Mr. ATT, I'm going to be P'd off if my customers are calling my support staff and asking for support because they put that idiot Mr. TMobile's ROM on one of my devices and expect me to foot the bill for the device they bricked. :)

Dave

[Janak Parekh]

No, it's not at all like that. For starters, it's nearly impossible to pirate Windows Mobile, since every device which can run it already has paid a license fee.
That's similar to the OEM configuration on desktops. Still, you can't (legally) install others' copies of Vista, or build different install CDs and distribute them.

While Microsoft may be within their legal rights, there's no rational reason for them alone to bother XDA-Developers.com. Frankly, I see this as Microsoft playing ball with the carriers, who don't want devices they've sold being modified to do more, or--gasp--having the useless crap that they preload removed.
Right. I do agree that MS probably acted now on behest of the carriers. I think the carriers do have one legitimate beef, and that is that users who brick their devices eventually go back to the carrier for support. That said, I think the carriers certainly do lock things down too much, but it's not something the economy is currently poised to change; if anything, the trends we see is that newer mobile OSes enable even more lockdown, not less.

--janak

[Jon Westfall]

...it's not something the economy is currently poised to change; if anything, the trends we see is that newer mobile OSes enable even more lockdown, not less.

--janak

True, but you know what they say about building a better mousetrap... Carriers can lock it down, but they don't have the resources to keep it locked down compared to thousands of bored hacker-esque users that live to break the lock

[paschott]

Reminds me of the iPaq I'd bought a while ago. I bought it for a couple of reasons - reputation for excellence, dual-card support, and the history of Compaq usually offering at least one upgrade for existing devices to a later OS. I was quite willing to pay a small premium to get the next released OS for my device, but HP decided not to offer the upgrade at any cost, even though it had been tested on the device and there were even unofficial versions floating around. My decision - no more HPs.

Similar problem with the carriers. I've bought a device and would like certain things to work. Out of the box, the 1.18 ROM for a Wizard didn't work properly for notifications. XDA helped me find a basic 2.x ROM that would work. I followed instructions extremely carefully, knowing full well that if I bricked my device, I'd be shelling out the $$ for a new device because what I was doing was unsupported (something that too many people apparently didn't grasp according to the original post). However, once upgraded, my notifications worked and I was relatively content. Cingular eventually released the update, but some of the customizations offered are really convenient - built in .Net framework, some free apps, some registry tweaks. All of which were installed so as not to take up more storage space on the device.

However, with carriers, I really don't expect an upgrade to WM6 at any price - they will want me to buy a brand-new device rather than selling me an upgrade to one I already own. That's the sort of thinking that makes me not want something like this in the future. If you drop support for me because my device is almost 1 year old, why should I trust you to support me in the future?

As noted - MS is fully within their rights to do this, but I think it hurt the community much more than it helped it. Excitement was built through XDA because of what we could do. Take that away and I think people are more inclined towards things like the iPhone, despite its many flaws.

Personally, I really wish they'd concentrated on the "PC"portion of PocketPC - giving us the ability to upgrade our devices without depending on the retailer. If we want to use WM6 or any other release and our device is capable, by all means let us buy the upgrade and use it. Encourage the developers to tweak and enhance the OS. Locking us out will only dampen the enthusiasm and encourage other players in the market to do it right.

-Pete

[thierryb]

do not forget to sign the petition
http://www.petitiononline.com/xdadevs/petition.html

[Sven Johannsen]

...The other thing is XDA has proven that new OS fit on existing devices with a very small amount of developer resources....so it really blew the carrier argument that providing upgrades was not profitable OUT OF THE WATER...That doesn't neccessarily follow. Just because some creative, capable, hobbyists (rather than use the term hackers) CAN create ROMs with improved or new functionality, doesn't mean that it would be profitable for a company to do the same, having to pay management, programmers, testers, submit to third party testing, distribute and support the new ROM.

[stllhogan]

I think part of it is like when Audiovox rebranded Toshiba pda's they offerd support for as long as they found it paid off or as long as they had to. When a carrier rebrand's a device they take over support (at least most of the time) and pda's arn't really their field nor do they care, it's obsolete to them since it's a phone and phones need to be upgraded regularly in their minds. If Htc has an update made for the Hermes Cingular can't say "NO INSTALL," I just don't think they care enough.

[jarekt]

There's NOTHING positive with taking down the one and only place with WM support in a world where Microsoft gives no support at all. That's sad...

[inteller]

...The other thing is XDA has proven that new OS fit on existing devices with a very small amount of developer resources....so it really blew the carrier argument that providing upgrades was not profitable OUT OF THE WATER...That doesn't neccessarily follow. Just because some creative, capable, hobbyists (rather than use the term hackers) CAN create ROMs with improved or new functionality, doesn't mean that it would be profitable for a company to do the same, having to pay management, programmers, testers, submit to third party testing, distribute and support the new ROM.

yes it follows. It shows you don't need all of that useless overhead to 'validate' the ROM release. XDA Dev took already tested Microsoft patches and applied them to the ROM. Its like saying I can't get SP2 for XP until HP or Dell thoroughly tests it and gives it their stamp of approval....its just BS.

The carrier's job is to do one thing, connect to the radio inside the unit and provide a good signal. Everything else is up to the device/OS mfr.

[Joff]

My suspicion is that Microsoft may also has acted on behalf of chipset vendors like Qualcomm (in addition to OEMs and carriers).

I don't know the details of the Trinity but I believe that the Radio and GPS parts are based on a Qualcomm chipset.
And the ROM updates may contain propriatary binaries for the chipset.
Knowing how secretive and over-protective Qualcomm can be, I wouldn't be surprised if they have put pressure on M$.

This is all speculative of course :roll:

Perhaps the future lies in something like this:

http://www.openmoko.org/

I certainly find the concept promissing.