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View Full Version : Palm's New GSM Treos: The 750v and the 680


Janak Parekh
10-16-2006, 05:00 PM
Palm's been busy lately on the GSM Treo front, between the Treo 750v, their GSM Pocket PC Phone, and the Treo 680, a new consumer GSM Palm OS phone. I had the opportunity to play with the former and attend the launch event of the latter last week in midtown New York City. Read on for pictures and my thoughts on Palm's latest efforts.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/parekh/features/gsmtreos/1.jpg"><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/parekh/features/gsmtreos/1s.jpg" /></a><br /><!><i>Figure 1: My Treo 700w and the Treo 750v. Whoa, antennaless Treo!</i><br /><br />NYC was busy with technology press events last week in and around DigitalLife, such as DigitalFocus, where I was able to stop by the Palm booth and play with the 750v.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/parekh/features/gsmtreos/2.jpg"><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/parekh/features/gsmtreos/2s.jpg" /></a><br /><i>Figure 2: Flashless pic of the 700w vs. 750v. The screen is actually a lot clearer than what is shown here; it's very close to the 700w/wx.</i><br /><br />The 750v is a top-notch device; it has <a href="http://euro.palm.com/uk/en/products/treo750v/specs.html">very similar specs</a> to the 700wx CPU and memorywise, and features quadband GSM/GPRS/EDGE and triband UMTS. Yes, I mean UMTS 850/1900/2100, supporting UMTS in the US, Europe, and even Australia! About time that a device supported everything! The 750v is also upgradeable to HSDPA via a firmware update that hasn't been offered yet.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/parekh/features/gsmtreos/3.jpg"><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/parekh/features/gsmtreos/3s.jpg" /></a><br /><i>Figure 3: Rear view of the two devices.</i><br /><br />The 750v's back is slightly more contoured than the 700w's and has a rubberized grip. It feels <i>really</i> nice in the hand. I also like the speaker/camera setup; overall, the device just looks a lot cleaner. The only downside is that they gave up the SD slot for a miniSD slot, located on the right behind a door.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/parekh/features/gsmtreos/4.jpg"><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/parekh/features/gsmtreos/4s.jpg" /></a><br /><i>Figure 4: Side view.</i><br /><br />See that dimpled side panel? That fits one's thumb or pinkie naturally, so along with the rubberized grip, the 750v fits like a glove. It's remarkable how these little tweaks make the 750v so much nicer than the 700w. The top is completely clean except for the silent profile switch.<br /><br />I pressed the Palm rep, but wasn't able to get any detail on anything of interest. About all I could get out of him is that Palm will indeed seek to market the 750v internationally, but absolutely no confirmation on when, where, or how much. The rumors I've heard is that the 750v will be eventually featured on Cingular, but he refused to even crack a smile or wink an eye to help me confirm this as fact or fiction. :|<br /><br />If you can't wait for Cingular or Palm or whomever else they're partnering with, you might want to <a href="http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2006/10/12/treo-750v-unlocked/">check out this Engadget article</a>; they detail how they managed to unlock a 750v and use it on Cingular's network with UMTS. They even managed to get a Blackberry Connect setup working.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/parekh/features/gsmtreos/Engadget750v.jpg" /><br /><i>Figure 5: Engadget has the device working on Cingular. The "U" means it's locked onto a UMTS signal.</i><br /><br />I've been drooling over several devices of late: Cingular's rumored 8525, the Hermes, and T-Mobile's Dash. I think I need to add this one more to the list. :D<br /><br />Next up: the Treo 680.<br /><br /><PAGEBREAK><span><b>The Treo 680 Press Event</b></span><br />As you know by now, the Treo 680 is a PalmOS device, so I'm not going to get much into the hardware. However, here's a few pictures and thoughts from the event, held at DigitalLife last Thursday.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/parekh/features/gsmtreos/5.jpg"><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/parekh/features/gsmtreos/5s.jpg" /></a><br /><i>Figure 6: The PR venue was in the back of the press area, on the fourth floor of a little pavilion in the middle of the Javits center.</i><br /><br /><a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/parekh/features/gsmtreos/6.jpg"><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/parekh/features/gsmtreos/6s.jpg" /></a><br /><i>Figure 7: Ed Colligan, CEO of Palm, starts the PR event.</i><br /><br />Ed stressed Palm's mantra of "ease of use", and is intending this device to be sold at a "great price point", although they refused to elaborate on the pricing as of yet. The device is quadband GPRS/EDGE (no UMTS or HSDPA), and intended to go international quickly. The device looks very much like a Palm OS-based 750v.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/parekh/features/gsmtreos/7.jpg"><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/parekh/features/gsmtreos/7s.jpg" /></a><br /><i>Figure 8: Phil McClendon, Senior Product Manager, introducing the Treo 680.</i><br /><br />Phil introduced the device in detail; it's Palm OS (Garnet, I'd assume, although he didn't bother to mention :P), 64MB of memory, SDIO slot, and is thinner/lighter than other Treos, featuring a 1200mAh battery (although they claim this does not affect battery life significantly).<br /><br />A variety of OS improvements are included, starting with a new Phone application and on-device user guides geared towards a better consumer experience. The new applications sounded interesting to me, until I heard further details. The phone app has quick launch items, a Today screen, wallpaper, and integrated contacts. You can now ignore calls with an SMS and add a new phone number to existing contact. The device has a list of most recently used email addresses. In addition, Exchange contact sync and autosync (i.e. x-minute intervals) are supported. There's PDF attachment support, a pictures and video app, slideshow with music, voice memos, streaming media, including WMA/WMV support plugged into Blazer out of the box.<br /><br />The audience seemed rapt at this feature list, but I was kind of... well... the 700w <b>already supports most of this</b>! The 680 is basically the 750v form factor, and the 700w customizations backported to the Palm OS, and on a non-3G device to boot. About the only value proposition of this device is its aggressive price point, which we don't even know yet, and nice form factor and colors. I'll be honest -- it does have the potential to be a great consumer device -- but I also think this proves, <b>beyond all</b>, that the Palm OS is strictly in catchup mode to Windows Mobile now. Even Palm's customizations on Windows Mobile have been far ahead of their customizations on Palm OS! They did demo a nice Google Maps app, but that's done by Google anyway, and we certainly have had <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=51336">Virtual Earth Mobile</a> for quite some time.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/parekh/features/gsmtreos/9.jpg"><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/parekh/features/gsmtreos/9s.jpg" /></a><br /><i>Figure 9: Palm's demographic slide.</i><br /><br />Palm is clearly intending the Treo 680 to be geared towards a broader audience than just "mobile professionals", rather, the "mobile accomplishers". To this, they are offering the device in four colors (Arctic, Copper, Crimson, and Graphite), which is a great idea, but from a technology standpoint, again, there's really nothing new here.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/parekh/features/gsmtreos/11.jpg"><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/parekh/features/gsmtreos/11s.jpg" /></a><br /><i>Figure 10: Palm will launch an aggressive advertising campaign for the Treo 680.</i><br /><br />And that was about it. Most of the press mobbed the devices, but I wasn't particularly keen on crowding in, so I left. I didn't even take pictures of the unit. It's <a href="http://www.palm.com/us/products/smartphones/treo680/index.html">all available on Palm's site</a> if you're interested in the Palm OS, but me, I'm going to stay with Windows Mobile. I think Palm basically proved their own Windows Mobile devices are far more advanced, so why should I bother with older tech? I do have to admit that the new work they've done on the form factor is very nice, and as such I'll be looking forward to the 750v. But their Palm OS technology just elicits one big yawn.<br /><br /><b>Edit:</b> One other interesting point came up during the Q&amp;A session at the end: the Treo 680 is <i>not</i> being manufactured by HTC, unlike most (all?) of their previous Treos. Palm is branching out to Inventec for this unit. It'll be good to see if Inventec manages to land other large deals; HTC has a bit of a monopoly on the new converged device market, and competition is a good thing.

whydidnt
10-16-2006, 06:07 PM
I really do like the minor form-factor changes on the 750v. It looks like it will be even easier to hold and use. I've been playing with a 700wx lately and that already fits very nicely in my hand. However, I still can't get used to the lower resolution screen, it's really noticeable to me both in Internet browsing and e-mail, 2 primary functions that I count on from my device.

I've also started playing with the Hermes, and it is really a fantastic device, with a great screen and fast response. However, no UMTS in my area yet, and I do miss the keyboard/number keys being exposed on the front of the unit. It is much easier to quickly look up a contact on the treo because I can just start typing with one hand. With the Hermes, I've got to use both hands and then slide the keyboard out, or fight with the tiny toothpick provided that HTC thinks is a stylus. :roll:

I think that both are very good, but neither is perfect for me. The Dash sounds like a very promising compromise, but doesn't offer 3G, so that probably won't be "the" device for me either. Here's hoping someday Palm decides to branch out and try something different than the square screen Treos. With a few tweaks they would have a killer deviced.

Janak Parekh
10-16-2006, 07:14 PM
I really do like the minor form-factor changes on the 750v. It looks like it will be even easier to hold and use. I've been playing with a 700wx lately and that already fits very nicely in my hand. However, I still can't get used to the lower resolution screen, it's really noticeable to me both in Internet browsing and e-mail, 2 primary functions that I count on from my device.
For Internet browsing I agree. For email, not so much. Tick the font size in WM5 down one notch, and it's actually quite useable.

I've also started playing with the Hermes, and it is really a fantastic device, with a great screen and fast response. However, no UMTS in my area yet
Well, this is not specific to the Hermes. Or are you saying there is CDMA 3G but not GSM 3G?

It is much easier to quickly look up a contact on the treo because I can just start typing with one hand.
Yup, agreed, but a front-mounted thumbboard usually necessitates the square form factor. Alternatively, you could use Voice Command, but I prefer just typing out the name if I can.

The Dash sounds like a very promising compromise, but doesn't offer 3G, so that probably won't be "the" device for me either.
Well, my previous comment applies. There's also the Q...

With a few tweaks they would have a killer deviced.
I think any such revamp will be medium- to long-term, if it ever happens. Palm's famous, as we all know, for moving relatively slowly. ;)

--janak

Silver5
10-16-2006, 07:35 PM
I have been looking forward to seeing more on this site about the 750v. It seems like it will be or already is one of the better WM5 devices available. I wish Palm would have been a little quicker to put this kind of device on the market for GSM users.

I just bought a HP iPAQ 6915 because I like this form factor and this Treo was not available...plus, I wanted the GPS. It might have been different if this was already in stores though.

Janak Parekh
10-16-2006, 08:02 PM
I just bought a HP iPAQ 6915 because I like this form factor and this Treo was not available...plus, I wanted the GPS. It might have been different if this was already in stores though.
I would have liked to see more posted on the 750v too, but we don't have European editors to have given it a run through. The 6915 is nice, and it does have the GPS, but it's also quite a bit bigger. But as long as you're happy with it, that's the most important thing. :)

--janak

Eugenia
10-16-2006, 08:03 PM
What pisses me off on the Palm Treos is the non-support of the Palm WiFi SD card. I am not even asking for an onboard chipset that's a technical challenge. I am just asking for an update of the driver. I blogged about this a few days ago, I won't let it go:
http://eugenia.blogsome.com/2006/10/12/palm-is-the-carriers-whore/

Janak Parekh
10-16-2006, 08:12 PM
What pisses me off on the Palm Treos is the non-support of the Palm WiFi SD card. I am not even asking for an onboard chipset that's a technical challenge. I am just asking for an update of the driver.
Well, the Pocket PC Treos do support Palm's WiFi SD card (http://web.palm.com/products/Product.jhtml?id=390004&amp;cat=b100018), so it's not quite so simple. I think Palm has made a corporate strategy decision about not investing R&amp;D into finishing WiFi support on the Palm OS Treos. Not sure why they'd want to make a decision like that, but one possibility is that they view the Palm OS devices as strictly consumer items, and thanks to modern cellular data networks, WiFi is more of an enterprise need. (I've personally never had a need for WiFi thanks to EVDO service.)

--janak

twpd
10-16-2006, 08:14 PM
why should I bother with older tech? I do have to admit that the new work they've done on the form factor is very nice, and as such I'll be looking forward to the 750v. But their Palm OS technology just elicits one big yawn.

It probably won't need resetting as often as the wobbly Wondows Mobile o/s so, on an always-on device that's a big plus point!

Eugenia
10-16-2006, 08:20 PM
Janak, I fail to see why not spending $5,000 to an Indian programmer to *update* the palm wifi driver for the sd card is too much of an R&amp;D. They simply don't want their PalmOS treos to support Wifi, and this is the carriers speaking, not Palm.

commander66
10-16-2006, 10:30 PM
I proudly own a 750v since last friday. It's really a great device especially with the Palm improvements to the Today-Screen.

I was using a 650 for a long time and always hated the external antenna and the limitations on Palm OS.

I also tested a Nokia E61 as another front facing keyboard-device but didn't like the width of it. I prefer a thicker device as the Treo is.

If you like more informations or some side-by-side pictures with other devices ( SDAs, Qteks, Nokias ) let me know.

Janak Parekh
10-16-2006, 10:53 PM
It probably won't need resetting as often as the wobbly Wondows Mobile o/s so, on an always-on device that's a big plus point!
Oh? Not if my mom's TX is any indication; even worse, the TX reboots by itself, frequently, when using WiFi and/or Blazer. I haven't tried the ROM locking techniques yet that someone on our boards suggested, but out of the box Garnet is no longer a stable platform based on what I've read and experienced. WM5 has actually been pretty stable for me, lame memory configuration on the Treo 700w aside.

--janak

Janak Parekh
10-16-2006, 10:56 PM
Janak, I fail to see why not spending $5,000 to an Indian programmer to *update* the palm wifi driver for the sd card is too much of an R&amp;D. They simply don't want their PalmOS treos to support Wifi, and this is the carriers speaking, not Palm.
I didn't say it cost too much or that it was smart; I agree it's pretty stupid.

My point is this, though: I don't see your argument when the carriers are carrying WiFi-capable Treos as well. If that was truly the case, why would Palm write the driver for Windows Mobile and support it? In addition, all of the four major US carriers also sell HTC Windows Mobile devices with WiFi built in. It doesn't make any sense that the carriers are demanding no-WiFi devices, and certainly not anymore.

Oh, the other rumor I heard a few years ago is that Garnet isn't so good at handling two simultaneous data connections (e.g., both cellular and WiFi). No clue how that true is.

--janak

Janak Parekh
10-16-2006, 10:58 PM
I proudly own a 750v since last friday. It's really a great device especially with the Palm improvements to the Today-Screen.
Yup, I love the Today screen additions. That's something Palm's had on all their WM devices.

If you like more informations or some side-by-side pictures with other devices ( SDAs, Qteks, Nokias ) let me know.
How's the reception and UMTS performance? Have you heard any data on when HSDPA support may be rolled out?

--janak

whydidnt
10-16-2006, 11:00 PM
For Internet browsing I agree. For email, not so much. Tick the font size in WM5 down one notch, and it's actually quite useable.

I actually find it more irritating with email - I use FlexMail, and the preview pane is nearly unusable on the Treo even at a small font size.


Well, this is not specific to the Hermes. Or are you saying there is CDMA 3G but not GSM 3G?

That's right - Cingular hasn't lit up 3G service in Minneapolis (or many other places) yet. I can get 3G on either Sprint or Verizon though and it's great!


Yup, agreed, but a front-mounted thumbboard usually necessitates the square form factor.

That's what intrigues me about the Dash - of course I may not like the extra bulk when it gets right down to it, and the lack of 3G kills it. However, having used a 700P with a 360 x 360 resolution screen, I really think it would be quite easy to fit a 320 x 240 landscape screen in the same space the current one uses - the device could possibly be even shorter.


There's also the Q...

I've tried the Smartphone OS previously (2125) and find it a little too limited for my likes.


I think any such revamp will be medium- to long-term, if it ever happens. Palm's famous, as we all know, for moving relatively slowly. ;)

No kidding - just wish they would realize how much more dominant they could be if they just were quicker to innovate.

atpcz
10-16-2006, 11:01 PM
Meh I wasn't too impressed with the 750v. I've got 2 on test for a month from vodafone. Used it over the weekend in place of my Hermes.

I didn't like the battery life, the screen was "bouncy", the volume to low (even when turned up high), the buttons on the side didn't have any visual icons as to what they did (yes I know 2 of them are volume, but the other one you'd press and after a delay windows media player would pop up. talk about random!). There is no wi-fi built in, and to me the keyboard is too small. Oh and I also didn't like the fact that it doesn't charge via USB (has its own non-standard charger)

I've given the other one to a user at work to try. He says he loves it (the same person that when using a 9100 claimed he got "terrible headaches"). Personally I think it has more to do with Palm being a client of ours...

The bluetooth stack seems newer on this than the Hermes though, as my Parrot kit picked it up fine and even displayed the signal strength and the battery life left. I also liked the SMS app - made a text message conversation look like an instant message.

You're right though, it does feel nice in the hands.

Janak Parekh
10-16-2006, 11:05 PM
Meh I wasn't too impressed with the 750v. I've got 2 on test for a month from vodafone. Used it over the weekend in place of my Hermes.
Well, the Treos are relatively weak data devices compared to the Hermes. My perception is that the Treos are good if you primarily need phone operation but still want Pocket PC. Its big value proposition is that you can turn it on and dial anyone easily with one hand.

I didn't like the battery life, the screen was "bouncy", the volume to low (even when turned up high), the buttons on the side didn't have any visual icons as to what they did (yes I know 2 of them are volume, but the other one you'd press and after a delay windows media player would pop up. talk about random!).
I wonder if the bounciness of the screen may disappear after some time. I can't remember if my 700w was bouncy. After applying a screen protector, I certainly don't notice any bounciness. And as for the launch button on the side, it can be remapped in Control Panel. Finally, interesting comment about the volume -- the 700w has pretty good volume by my standards, but I wasn't able to test the 750v as a phone.

Oh and I also didn't like the fact that it doesn't charge via USB (has its own non-standard charger)
You can get a 3rd-party sync-and-charge cable that does charge over USB. Works great with my Treo.

Thanks again for your comments!

--janak

whydidnt
10-16-2006, 11:07 PM
It probably won't need resetting as often as the wobbly Wondows Mobile o/s so, on an always-on device that's a big plus point!

This is a big Myth. I have a Treo 700P that is much less stable than any of the last generation WM devices. It frequently resets for no apparent reason.

AND don't even get me started on the LifeDrive, sitting gathering dust on my desk. Very slow and unstable. So much so that I refuse to resell it as I don't want the purchaser to hold me liable for selling a defective device.

Janak Parekh
10-16-2006, 11:08 PM
I actually find it more irritating with email - I use FlexMail, and the preview pane is nearly unusable on the Treo even at a small font size.
Ah, right, I was thinking of Inbox.

That's what intrigues me about the Dash - of course I may not like the extra bulk when it gets right down to it, and the lack of 3G kills it. However, having used a 700P with a 360 x 360 resolution screen, I really think it would be quite easy to fit a 320 x 240 landscape screen in the same space the current one uses - the device could possibly be even shorter.
Yes, I agree with you there, it would be interesting -- and we know WM5 Pocket PC supports 320x240. (BTW, the 700p is 320x320.) A perfectly acceptable alternative would be 480x480, which WM5 does fully support.

No kidding - just wish they would realize how much more dominant they could be if they just were quicker to innovate.
Hah, if they moved faster back in the '90s, there might not have been Windows Mobile. ;) In fact, at the PR, it was clear that the emphasis on the Treo platform was usability first and foremost as opposed to the latest technology. Mind you, they were focusing on the 680 as a consumer platform, but I think it generally applies to their corporate philosophy too.

--janak

gavinfabl
10-17-2006, 06:15 AM
Palm os cannot handle 2 data connections simultaneously. It cannot multitask. It was designed for a handheld not smartphone, hence as a handheld it's really good ie reliable and easy to use.

The crashes reported above on the TX relate to a bug with Blazer and Wifi and also problems with dbcache.

I have used the 750v and as hardware goes the design is very good and in real life it looks good.

The software or rom definitely needs an update to make it stable and improve the radio reception. I had a release model for 4 days. The radio reception was poor and it crashed like hell. I have 2 friends who have one. One friend , an experienced user, got so fed up of the crashes he returned handset 3 days later. The other really likes his, and is not having too many issues.

I personally have been trying Symbian UIQ3, with a Sony Ericsson m600i. That is a great design. Sold that now and just waiting for delivery of my new Fujitsu Siemens T830 anyday now :-)

tj8212
10-17-2006, 06:01 PM
I have more pics of the 680 here
http://www.tunjiafonja.com/tunjis_weblog/2006/10/treo_680_in_my_.html

ricksfiona
10-17-2006, 09:55 PM
This is a really good device especially with the UMTS and soon HSPDA support.

This may sound petty... But no 3rd party USB charger? Being a mobile person... You GOTTA have USB based cable to charge your device... There's no excuse for that....