Sprint to Release Treo 700wx, "Fixing" Memory?

[Janak Parekh]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.clieuk.co.uk/wm.shtml' target='_blank'>http://www.clieuk.co.uk/wm.shtml</a><br /><br /></div><i>"A few days ago we posted a rumour that the Sprint Windows Mobile Treo was coming soon. Now we have confirmation that the device at least exists. Posters on the TreoCentral Treo community site has noticed that the device has shown up in the latest copy of Sprint PCS Connection Manager for using your phone as a Modem/USB...there were rumors that Sprint demanded some changes before carrying it. It is now believed that the Sprint Windows Mobile Treo will have 64MB RAM, instead of the 32 Mb which crippled the Verizon model...The device is expected to be released for business customers from 27 August, and for the rest of us by the 3rd September."</i><br /><br />Surur speculates that Verizon Palm users won't be the "happiest bunnies in the world". As a bunny in question, my response: it's galling enough that we have to deal with a subpar memory configuration, but the continued lack of tethering support on Verizon's part is what is <b>really</b> irritating me. The suggestion that Sprint will allow tethering out of the box makes me almost ready to ditch Verizon and offload the device. :evil:

[njl2016]

I hate Verizon. They are THE worst cell phone carrier. I hate their crippled devices and overpriced plans.

I must say though, when I was in New Hampshire Maine, I got service when all my friends with Sprint didn't. In fact, I got better service in NH than I did at home in Boston. :?

[Janak Parekh]

I hate Verizon. They are THE worst cell phone carrier.
Nah, one wishes they were the worst. Their service is actually darn good. ;)

I must say though, when I was in New Hampshire Maine, I got service when all my friends with Sprint didn't. In fact, I got better service in NH than I did at home in Boston. :?
Yup, that's exactly why I've stuck with Verizon. It works everywhere in the Northeast.

--janak

[DaleReeck]

I'm on a family plan with VZW and a single user plan with Sprint. The same services costing $100 on VZW costs $70 on Sprint. Also, in my area, VZW is still dorking around with getting EVDO working. Sprint has had it for over a year.

Different services work better in different parts of the country, so an individual's milage may very. But in general, I've found Sprint to have good coverage and better services than VZW - overall just a better value. Sprint is very underated IMO.

[Janak Parekh]

Different services work better in different parts of the country, so an individual's milage may very.
Well, this is the key, isn't it? :) If and when I move in the near future (after finishing my PhD), I'll be sure to reevaluate all the carriers. I'd be very happy to be back in GSM-land...

--janak

[Chris Spera]

Surur speculates that Verizon Palm users won't be the "happiest bunnies in the world". As a bunny in question, my response: it's galling enough that we have to deal with a subpar memory configuration, but the continued lack of tethering support on Verizon's part is what is really irritating me. The suggestion that Sprint will allow tethering out of the box makes me almost ready to ditch Verizon and offload the device. :evil:

What really burns my butt is that Palm KNEW this to be an issue. When I reviewed the device on pocketnow.com (http://www.pocketnow.com/index.php?a=portal_detail&amp;t=reviews&amp;id=758) earlier this year, I really roasted Palm for releasing the device with this memory configuration. When I asked them about this in their media exclusive conference call (and their response is why I felt so strongly about this...), I was told, in no uncertain terms, that their research indicated that 32MB was the sweet spot. I'm still shaking my head over that one.

IMHO, the bare minimum for a decent functioning device is 64MB (as I'm certain everyone will agree). The sweet spot for a WM2003SE device is 128MB (the HTC Blue Angel is great with its native 128MB of RAM). Given WM5's new memory architecture, I think the sweet spot for it would be between 96MB and 128MB of RAM. On board flash storage in WM5 devices is a bonus. My K-JAM can run things just as well from the Mini-SD card I have, as it can from its internal storage.

The thing that would bother me the most about this, is that I don't think Palm or VzW will offer any 700w owners an upgrade path. I think you're going to be stuck with the limping 700w you've got (old and busted), while Sprint customers get the benefit of your complaints (new hotness). I think VzW will eventually stock and sell this one; but they aren't going to help anyone move to it from the original 700w, which is too bad...

[applejosh]

Different services work better in different parts of the country, so an individual's milage may very. But in general, I've found Sprint to have good coverage and better services than VZW - overall just a better value. Sprint is very underated IMO.

I have Verizon now. I had Sprint for a year, but as it turned out there was a hole in their coverage area right around my office. Couldn't have been more than a mile wide at most (just outside of the downtown area, too). But it was a black hole as far as reception went. So I went back to Verizon, and it mostly suits my needs, at least for the moment... 8O

[Ed@Brighthand]

the continued lack of tethering support on Verizon's part is what is really irritating me.
Have you tried out PdaNet (http://software.brighthand.com/product.asp?id=4237)?

[DaleReeck]

Different services work better in different parts of the country, so an individual's milage may very. But in general, I've found Sprint to have good coverage and better services than VZW - overall just a better value. Sprint is very underated IMO.

I have Verizon now. I had Sprint for a year, but as it turned out there was a hole in their coverage area right around my office. Couldn't have been more than a mile wide at most (just outside of the downtown area, too). But it was a black hole as far as reception went. So I went back to Verizon, and it mostly suits my needs, at least for the moment... 8O

Even though I don't live in a huge city (Buffalo NY), we really don't have any real holes in the coverage of all the major carriers. From the city center to a 25 mile radius to the suburbs, coverage is pretty complete. Even the boonies seem to always have a signal - at least roaming. I've personally never seen a hole anywhere in my local travels.

In fact, most of the eastern US is pretty solid. Lookng at the maps, it seems that in the west and especially parts of the midwest, coverage isn't as overlapping.

[DaleReeck]

I was told, in no uncertain terms, that their research indicated that 32MB was the sweet spot. I'm still shaking my head over that one.


Honestly, I think they are outright lying. We all know that there is absolutely no way that any person who used a 32MB device, even a novice, would find 32MB acceptable. Not unless "acceptable" means rebooting it three times a day to recover memory.

Not to be conspiracy guy here, but I think they were hoping people would be so in love with the idea of a Treo running Windows Mobile, that they could save a few dollars by shortchanging the memory - that people wouldn't mind a few reboots a day. Or maybe it was easier and cheaper to take the basic Palm 32MB model 650, slam Windows Mobile on it and call it a 700, with little hardware modification necessary. Because, other than that, there is no research that can be done that would indicate 32MB being the "sweet spot".

[Kash76]

I can understand if you don't get coverage at your home or office but why else would you want to pay $45 a month for data? Verizon is really restricting their growth in that dept.

[seaflipper]

[quote=Janak Parekh] was told, in no uncertain terms, that their research indicated that 32MB was the sweet spot. I'm still shaking my head over that one..

I personally don't have a lot of memory issues on my Treo700w. Occasionally I do run into a thing or two. My exchange box runs between 45 to 250 emails in my inbox per day, I don't sync subfolders. I have noticed a recent apparent "slow down" with the device, but it could just be me :lol:

But what I really am curious to know is will all the Sprint people start complaining about how much faster their battery life is draining compared to their old 700w :lol:

[Kash76]

[quote=Janak Parekh] was told, in no uncertain terms, that their research indicated that 32MB was the sweet spot. I'm still shaking my head over that one..

I personally don't have a lot of memory issues on my Treo700w. Occasionally I do run into a thing or two. My exchange box runs between 45 to 250 emails in my inbox per day, I don't sync subfolders. I have noticed a recent apparent "slow down" with the device, but it could just be me :lol:

But what I really am curious to know is will all the Sprint people start complaining about how much faster their battery life is draining compared to their old 700w :lol:

With all the stuff that I will be able to run at once on my new Sprint 700wx I'll take a little battery hit :)

[mpaque]

Time to dump my 700w on Ebay. I see its value dropping quickly once the new device comes out.

[whydidnt]

I think some of you are missing the point.

Palm ALWAYS cuts corners on memory/features with their first version of any device. That way they when they release a version that has a reasonable amount of memory they get to make a 2nd sale. I will bet that if/when the 700wx is available on Verizon 35-40% of the original 700w purchasers pay to buy a new device. Palm just sold people 2 devices for the same function. 8O

They are unable or unwilling to innovate in a meaningful way so they make money on incremental upgrades. BTW, they get away with this because no other handset maker has been bright enough to try and copy their design and people really like it. I am always amazed at how moronic HP has been in this space. It's like they purposely have failed to provide a usable phone style device. HTC has been closest with their wizard device, but many don't want to deal with a landscape keyboard. Until a competitor releases a device that competes on form/function with the Treo, Palm is going to continue down the same path.

[pgh1969pa]

Do I think 32mb is too small....absolutely! BUT...those who bought them seem to be making their biggest complaints *after* Sprint spills the beans about their improved version. If your Treo worked fine for you yesterday, how does this news change your life or make your device suddenly non-functional today. If it wasn't doing the job, I'm sure Verizon would exchange or provide a refund within a reasonable period of time.

Why would you buy something that you consider insufficent?

[mpaque]

My Treo, for the most part, works fine, but it does have its issues. I suspect those issues are because of the lack of memory. I've felt that way since I purchased it. I was willing to put up with them because I like the form factor, the qwerty keyboard and evdo. Sprint's announcement does nothing to my device except make it worth a lot less on Ebay. I typically keep my phones for 6 months. All I was saying is that it's time to dump this puppy before it's worth a lot less than it already is. Now the real question is....... what do I replace it with? :mrgreen:

[Janak Parekh]

IMHO, the bare minimum for a decent functioning device is 64MB (as I'm certain everyone will agree).
I don't agree, actually. I have very few memory problems. To be sure, it's a bit annoying, but I knew what I'd get going into the picture, and overall the 700w is very functional. The one category of users I think it's extremely ill-suited for, though, is GPS users. For me, the lack of tethering is much, much worse. I certainly wouldn't call 32MB "busted".

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

Have you tried out PdaNet (http://software.brighthand.com/product.asp?id=4237)?
Yes. There are multiple problems with it:

1. It's not Verizon-sanctioned. If you overuse the service, you are subject to large fees or cancellation for violating their TOS.

2. It doesn't always work reliably. I have experienced frequent disconnects, especially when using the unsupported Bluetooth mechanism.

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

a few reboots a day.
8O I might reboot once a week. Maybe I just use my device differently than you use yours...

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

I can understand if you don't get coverage at your home or office but why else would you want to pay $45 a month for data? Verizon is really restricting their growth in that dept.
I suspect that's deliberate on their part to prevent overloading of their network.

Palm ALWAYS cuts corners on memory/features with their first version of any device. That way they when they release a version that has a reasonable amount of memory they get to make a 2nd sale.
That's an interesting theory, but I don't necessarily buy it. Sure, they don't mind the extra sale, but I doubt that'd be the reason for restricting an initial unit. And, you'll piss off enough users, which will reduce any potential benefit significantly.

Nah, I'd use Occam's razor and say it was simply shortsightedness.

--janak

[Kash76]

Is the GPS comment just due to the screen size? I'm curious because since I dumped my Dell x50v months back I miss the GPS and is part of the reason I'm excited for the 700w.

[Janak Parekh]

Is the GPS comment just due to the screen size?
That's part of it... the other is that GPS maps can sometimes take quite a bit of memory to load. I haven't tried using GPS on my unit, but I'm guessing that, as a minimum, all other apps will have to close before GPS apps work well.

(You should try searching the boards to see how well the 700w works for GPS. As a NYCgoer, I rarely need it...)

--janak

[Kash76]

I trialed a Verizon 700w and was able to run a few things while running mapopolis. At least if there was issue with 32 I won't have to worry about that anymore :)

[Yahdie]

Isn't it odd that Verizon allows tethering with almost all their devices BUT the one's running Windows?

[DaleReeck]

I don't agree, actually. I have very few memory problems. To be sure, it's a bit annoying, but I knew what I'd get going into the picture, and overall the 700w is very functional. The one category of users I think it's extremely ill-suited for, though, is GPS users. For me, the lack of tethering is much, much worse. I certainly wouldn't call 32MB "busted".

--janak

But if its a "bit annoying", then you do have memory issues, no? My other phone, a Sprint 6700, has 64MB of memory and I am not annoyed at all. At least not with the memory ;)

[Chris Spera]

I don't agree, actually. I have very few memory problems. To be sure, it's a bit annoying, but I knew what I'd get going into the picture, and overall the 700w is very functional. The one category of users I think it's extremely ill-suited for, though, is GPS users. For me, the lack of tethering is much, much worse. I certainly wouldn't call 32MB "busted".

--janak

Janak,

we're a bit different, though, aren't we? Most users aren't power users like us, and are likely NOT going to know how to work around issues like this. We do. I agree that the 700w is functional if you know what to do and how to do it (i.e. what to do to get around the memory issues, and its not just a soft reset, though doing a few a day helps).

You're exactly right about GPS. I wouldn't put GPS on the 700w at all (wouldn't even think of doing it). Its got enough problems as it is, and GPS is only going to make it worse.

And no, 32MB isn't busted; but it doesn't work very well, and most users aren't going to know what to tweak, when or where to tweak to get around it (which is my point). They just want to use a device that works the way they would expect a device to work.

[Janak Parekh]

But if its a "bit annoying", then you do have memory issues, no? My other phone, a Sprint 6700, has 64MB of memory and I am not annoyed at all. At least not with the memory ;)
Well... I guess it boils down to if the lack of memory is causing problems. I rarely have problems. However, I can't always run as many programs as I'd like to. I certainly don't soft-reset "several times a day", as Chris might.

we're a bit different, though, aren't we? Most users aren't power users like us, and are likely NOT going to know how to work around issues like this.
By the same token, most "ordinary" users use just the apps built-in, and the 700w works quite well if you're just using those. It's also worth pointing out I don't use a task manager anymore -- I tried giving it up, and for most programs WM5's lame minimize button works tolerably. I also don't use Today plugins, because I find the 240x240 screen doesn't really have space for it and the built-in Palm plugins are effective enough.

Here's my point: I do think it's a mistake that Palm decided to include only 32MB in the device, and the 700wx would validate that point. However, I do not think it makes the device unusable or defective.

--janak

[Dave Beauvais]

I have Mapopolis on my 700w to use with my Bluetooth GPS for short trips to unfamiliar areas. It works perfectly and actually consumes remarkably little RAM while running. (I'm using the latest beta version (http://www.gpspassion.com/forumsen/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=53081) now.) Maps are stored on a 1 GB SD card. For longer trips, I switch back to my "old" iPAQ hx4700 (upgraded back down to WM2003 SE) which is a much better travel companion in terms of screen readability while driving. I can rely on that to see the map; the Treo I use mostly with spoken directions since so little of the map is visible on the 240x240 screen once the direction pane pops up.

I also intentionally did an experiment to see how long I could go without soft resetting. I did nothing different, ran the same applications I always do, and went thirteen days before IE froze while loading a Web page forcing me to soft reset. Like Janak, I no longer use a task manager/close button tweaker and just let WM5 close things as it sees fit. The biggest problem I have is the ridiculous memory leak. I can go from 14.7 MB free after a soft reset to less than 10 MB in just a few hours running nothing but built-in applications. Strangely, it almost never drop lower than 6 MB, even after several days with apps running.

What annoys me most with regard to system RAM is that multitasking on the 700w is sometimes like a Palm. Two large apps -- Pocket Informant and Windows Media Player, for example -- can almost never run at the same time, and switching to one will close the other almost every time. That is annoying as heck. I had a page open in IE that had a large number of graphics. I wanted to show a friend one of the images, but needed to turn the screen brightness up first. Simply loading the screen brightness control panel caused the OS' memory manager to close IE. Very frustrating. Most times I will browse with images off simply because pages download faster and IE consumes far less RAM. Most of what I read is RSS feeds via Bloglines (http://www.bloglines.com)' mobile interface, so text-only is very usable, if somewhat boring to look at.

[Janak Parekh]

Good summary -- the biggest problem, by far, is the memory leak. I do think there are two issues here: DLLs that don't unload by design and actual memory leaks. The latter eventually get to the point when you must soft-reset, but it isn't daily.

--janak