Europe Launches GPS Rival?

[Ed Hansberry]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://news.com.com/2300-1033_3-6011169-1.html?part=rss&tag=6011169&subj=news' target='_blank'>http://news.com.com/2300-1033_3-601...11169&subj=news</a><br /><br /></div><i>"The European Union launched its first Galileo navigation satellite, the Giove-A, on Dec. 28 in a program to end Europe's reliance on the United States' Global Positioning System, or GPS. The European system, which is expected to go into service in 2008, aims to have an accuracy of 3 feet or less--five times better than the current GPS system."</i><br /><br />Now, a few things strike me as odd here. First of all, why do we need another GPS system? Does the current global system not work well enough for you? I am not a GPS user, so I don't know how well it works. I know it is accurate to within 6 feet <i>if</i> you have the right kind of receiver. GPS accuracy is less so because the US military deliberately makes it a bit fuzzy without the right hardware. Furthermore, using Differential GPS, it is accurate to 1 centimeter.<br /><br />So, what is the point of this new system? Even if it is five times more accurate than the US system for the general user, that means the US system is accurate to within 15 feet. If you need accuracy beyond that while driving around, you should have your driver's license revoked. Is this just so Europe has its own system, or is there really an advantage here, besides to the hardware makers that plan to make a killing off of new equipment purchases.

[martin_ayton]

Well, the EU bureaucrats and politicos give a whole pile of reasons, most of which seem to be centred around the fact that this is a commercial (vs. military) system with built in quality checking etc. etc. which will enable commercial businesses to build services off of it with greater reliability and hence less risk than they can off the US GPS network.

In reality, it's probably a massive vanity project based on a deep-felt need (in some quarters) not to rely on a US system over which the EU has absolutely no control.

However, that said, isn't it time that the EU and other parts of the world started to stand on their own feet and not always rely on US taxpayers to get stuff done? It probably shouldn't have been by duplicating something that already exists (although the GPS system is aging and Congress has been stalling on voting funding to replace it) but at least it's a start.

[hamishmacdonald]

The one reason I can think of off the top of my head is that the US threatened to pull the plug on the GPS system not long ago. (I read something to that effect a few months back.)

[Arne Hess]

Now, a few things strike me as odd here. First of all, why do we need another GPS system? Does the current global system not work well enough for you? I am not a GPS user, so I don't know how well it works. I know it is accurate to within 6 feet if you have the right kind of receiver. GPS accuracy is less so because the US military deliberately makes it a bit fuzzy without the right hardware. Furthermore, using Differential GPS, it is accurate to 1 centimeter.
Some quote from Wikipedia about Galileo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_satellite_navigation_system):
As well as being an impressive technological achievement and a hugely practical tool, Galileo will be a political statement of European independence from the United States and its GPS system. A strong motivator for an independent system is that, though GPS is now widely used worldwide for civilian applications, it is a military system, which as recently as 2000 had selective availability that may be enabled in particular areas of coverage during times of war. Galileo's proponents argue that civil infrastructure, including aeroplane navigation and landing, should not rely solely upon GPS.
So, what is the point of this new system? Even if it is five times more accurate than the US system for the general user, that means the US system is accurate to within 15 feet. If you need accuracy beyond that while driving around, you should have your driver's license revoked. Is this just so Europe has its own system, or is there really an advantage here, besides to the hardware makers that plan to make a killing off of new equipment purchases.
Hehehe... :-) Not everything in the world is about Pocket PCs and car navigation. GPS is used today in air and nautical use as well and that's what Galileo is addressing as well:

There will be four different navigation services available:

* The Open Service (OS) will be free for anyone to access. The OS signals will be broadcast in two bands, at 1164–1214 MHz and at 1563–1591 MHz. Receivers will achieve an accuracy of &lt;4 m horizontally and &lt;8 m vertically if they use both OS bands. Receivers that use only a single band will still achieve &lt;15 m horizontally and &lt;35 m vertically, comparable to what the civilian GPS C/A service provides today. It is expected that most future mass market receivers, such as automotive navigation systems, will process both the GPS C/A and the Galileo OS signals, for maximum coverage.
* The encrypted Commercial Service (CS) will be available for a fee and will offer an accuracy of better than 1 m. The CS can also be complemented by ground stations to bring the accuracy down to less than 10 cm. This signal will be broadcast in three frequency bands, the two used for the OS signals, as well as at 1260–1300 MHz.
* The encrypted Public Regulated Service (PRS) and Safety of Life Service (SoL) will both provide an accuracy comparable to the Open Service. Their main aim is robustness against jamming and the reliable detection of problems within 10 seconds. They will be targeted at security authorities (police, military, etc.) and safety-critical transport applications (air-traffic control, automated aircraft landing, etc.), respectively.
* In addition, the Galileo satellites will be able to detect and report signals from COSPAS-SARSAT search-and-rescue beacons in the 406.0–406.1 MHz band, which makes them a part of the Global Maritime Distress Safety System.

You see, Galileo will provide way more services as GPS provides today (non-military use).

[krisbrown]

OK firstly it was too hard for Europe to swallow the idea of having major operations over here relying on US controlled technology, also the Euro version will have a built in warning system if it loses track of where you are making it suitable for plane landings, the UK is looking at charging by mileage ..having every car fitted with GPS, this wouldn't really be politically possible using a US system, of course there allready is another GPS , the Russians have had one for years.

The increased accuracy is a bit mute because the US is allready working on an updated GPS themselves.

[signothefish]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6720387/

"WASHINGTON - President Bush has ordered plans for temporarily disabling the U.S. network of global positioning satellites during a national crisis to prevent terrorists from using the navigational technology, the White House said Wednesday."

That way, the EU can continue to provide the terrorists the means necessary to get 'er done.

[Joff]

I believe the main reasons are political ones.

The US army have freightened to turn off the GPS signal in the past.
It makes a lot of sense to me that the EU is trying to gain some independence.

The second argument is that it will create thousands of desperately needed high tech jobs within the EU.

[iant54]

The reasons are political and economic - as far as the latter is concerned, the European Union can rake in oodles of money for letting companies and individuals use "their GPS". Oh, and the odd little country, such as China ....

[WorksForTurkeys]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6720387/

"WASHINGTON - President Bush has ordered plans for temporarily disabling the U.S. network of global positioning satellites during a national crisis to prevent terrorists from using the navigational technology, the White House said Wednesday."

That way, the EU can continue to provide the terrorists the means necessary to get 'er done.

which would make the EU system at target for terrorists unable to affect the US system - now if terrorists want to cripple the EU economy without chancing retailiation by the US military, they have an unprotected civilian target... instead of trains in Spain, they'll be targeting planes over France.

[x51vuser]

So, what is the point of this new system? Even if it is five times more accurate than the US system for the general user, that means the US system is accurate to within 15 feet. If you need accuracy beyond that while driving around, you should have your driver's license revoked. Is this just so Europe has its own system, or is there really an advantage here, besides to the hardware makers that plan to make a killing off of new equipment purchases.

Yup these people are morons. They have no clue how to
approach more complex problems - for example trip to Mars or
at least fight poverty, prostitution. So.. they throw money where
they think they could be someone now that nobody wants to buy big Airbus.
Very likely they will allow only their own GPS to be used in the EU.

[Philip Colmer]

A couple of other points that I don't think have been mentioned so far:

1. The EU system works alongside the US system. My understanding is that existing hardware can pick up signals from both.

2. It is also my understanding that the signals from the EU system can be picked up indoors - something you can't do with the US system - well, not without line of sight out of a window by my experience.

--Philip

[griph]

Yup these people are morons.
Whoah sonny!! ;-)
Do try to keep your bigotted inflamatory opinions to yourself.

[x51vuser]

Yup these people are morons.
Whoah sonny!! ;-)
Do try to keep your bigotted inflamatory opinions to yourself.

Why is that ?
Is it better to live in the EU without knowing what people think of it ?
Just read The Economist if you want more reality.

[SHC]

I don't know if it's possible with the current US owned GPS system but there are rumours of using the new EU system to:

1. Use it to enable country-wide road pricing (£/mile)
2. Congestion charging
3. Speed limit enforcement

I'm sure there are other reasons too.

[Me_too]

So, what is the point of this new system? Even if it is five times more accurate than the US system for the general user, that means the US system is accurate to within 15 feet. If you need accuracy beyond that while driving around, you should have your driver's license revoked. Is this just so Europe has its own system, or is there really an advantage here, besides to the hardware makers that plan to make a killing off of new equipment purchases.

The EU is the world's largest trading block and any GPS network is going to be a strategic asset as the world of warfare relies increasingly on guided weaponry.

Notwithstanding the increased commercial opportunities (e.g. aircraft guidance systems) of a technologically more advanced system, in the long term the EU could not afford to depend on a military system under the control of a foreign power, for pretty obvious reasons.

[Duncan]

It's quite simple. Currently using GPS means trusting the US military and leadership to be competent. Here in Europe we grew to realise how utterly misplaced that trust is.

[BogdanK]

Currently using GPS means trusting the US military and leadership to be competent. Here in Europe we grew to realise how utterly misplaced that trust is.


I'm and American but I say Amen to that. Hope that that trust is going to be restored one day - but I'm not holding my breath - to many years to go under the current administration



Please, let's just say that more is better - if one system goes wrong then there are backups.

[Grbld]

"WASHINGTON - President Bush has ordered plans for temporarily disabling the U.S. network of global positioning satellites during a national crisis to prevent terrorists from using the navigational technology, the White House said Wednesday."

That way, the EU can continue to provide the terrorists the means necessary to get 'er done.

What a bunch of baloney!!!

As an airline pilot with plenty of experience in the US and Europe, I can tell you that this is yet another "play the terrorist-card" to justify something.

All four aircraft that were used in the 9/11 attacks, namely B757 and B767s (which I have flown for several years) have NO GPS at all! The versions that were delivered in the last 6 years or so did have GPS, but the older ones in use by major US airlines today do not. Their sole means of navigation are intertial (gyroscopic) nav and radio beacons. So turning off GPS would've made ZERO difference on 9/11 and since all the aircraft in service today that use GPS as -one of the- means for navigation, even turning off GPS will hardly impact navigation to begin with.

Heck, even if you lost all those internal navigation computers on current airliners, you can simply manually tune radio beacons and navigate from there, just like in a tiny Cessna.

Not to sound overly political, but in a world where air, sea and road usage of a satellite nav system is heavily relied upon, having this system be subject to political strategic usage is a valid point for implementing a secondary system.

Drifting a little off-topic, but being fully immersed in all security and safety issues that are part of the aviation business, a measure like turning off GPS if you suspect that a terrorist is hijacking one plane is completely overboard.

One must not forget that 100% security is by definition not possible. You can take all security measures at airports and on the plane and then someone with a stinger shoots you down. Attempting to achieve 100% security brings vastly disproportionate costs. And if you're thinking of countering with "you can't put a price tag on a human life", then take a look at healthcare, where in the Western world, it's perfectly accepted to have a 4% failure rate in diagnosis, to avoid out of control examination costs.

Sorry, rant is over!


Grbld

[Duncan]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6720387/

"WASHINGTON - President Bush has ordered plans for temporarily disabling the U.S. network of global positioning satellites during a national crisis to prevent terrorists from using the navigational technology, the White House said Wednesday."

That way, the EU can continue to provide the terrorists the means necessary to get 'er done.

Ah - that magic word - terrorists (which allows the US government to get away with doing anything they ruddy well want to) . They were invented in 2001 y'know. If only the people of Europe - say those in the UK, Spain and Italy - knew what a threat terrorism was eh...!

Seriously - when Bush says crap like this - does no-one ever think of asking him just exactly what form this crisis might take? Where terrorists somehow use GPS to commit acts of terrorism? Do we think that somehow they won't be able to find Washington DC with the GPS network down? ('Damn' thinks Osama, 'We can't launch our terror attacks now because none of us find anything anymore').

Just exactly how stupid do people have to be to listen to this stuff and not go - 'hang on - that doesn't make any sense...!'?

[Duncan]

Yup these people are morons. They have no clue how to
approach more complex problems - for example trip to Mars or
at least fight poverty, prostitution. So.. they throw money where
they think they could be someone now that nobody wants to buy big Airbus.
Very likely they will allow only their own GPS to be used in the EU.

What a startlingly incisive analysis. The three biggest problems in the EU - going to Mars, poverty and prostitution.

We should look to America - where they are going to Mars... er maybe... er someday.

Well - they have the solution to poverty at least - I believe it's called - doing bugger all about it, blaming the poor and deprived for not having been born better off and giving tax breaks to the very richest while dismantling services for those in dire need.

For heavens sake - where do people get these notions from?

Why is that ?
Is it better to live in the EU without knowing what people think of it ?
Just read The Economist if you want more reality.

I rather doubt that you get your information about the world from reading The Economist. Call it a hunch.

As for knowing what 'people' (I assume you mean Americans) think of the EU - sure we know. We hear about all of the crazy ideas that certain American ideologues have about the EU. We find them hilarious (I especially loved the commentator who declared that the lack of air conditioning units in UK houses showed we were worse off than Americans...!).

[signothefish]

I'm not concerned about aircraft as much as I am guided missiles. With countries like Iran and North Korea trying to acquire nuclear weapons, all they have to do is take advantage of the US GPS system. But if they shut that down, they can use EU's GPS system to fulfill the mission.

[Duncan]

I'm not concerned about aircraft as much as I am guided missiles. With countries like Iran and North Korea trying to acquire nuclear weapons, all they have to do is take advantage of the US GPS system. But if they shut that down, they can use EU's GPS system to fulfill the mission.

There are around a dozen guidance systems available for use with long range missiles - only one of which relies on GPS. Most missile systems will use a combination of several. If a hostile power develops a guided nuke they will not be prevented from accurately targetting anywhere they want simply because GPS is switched off.

Plus - just to make this clear - the Galileo system can also be switched off or encrypted in times of emergency or war. Indeed - the most accurate usage of the system will be restricted to European and friendly powers anyway.

All these grand pronouncements about switching of GPS etc. are just a very useful way of looking like the US administration is really doing something about terrorism (apart, of course, from doing all it can to increase the number of terrorists in the world). They know that to even question the common sense of any of this is to be painted as someone who loves Saddam/hates America/is an enemy of freedom etc. Thus no-one points at the naked emperor and everyone is lulled into a false sense of security.

[BevHoward]

GPS accuracy is less so because the US military deliberately makes it a bit fuzzy without the right hardware.

That deliberate "fuzziness" was addressed (turned off) during the Clinton administration.

Furthermore, using Differential GPS, it is accurate to 1 centimeter.

Requires different hardware plus an expensive subscription.

[x51vuser]

The three biggest problems in the EU - going to Mars, poverty and prostitution.

These were just examples !!! See what I meant ?

We should look to America - where they are going to Mars... er maybe... er someday.

Look yourself. I am not American so I let Americans to look to what they want.
I only reserve the right to own opinion :-P

I rather doubt that you get your information about the world from reading The Economist. Call it a hunch.

Aaaaaaahhhhaaa .... what do yaaaaa know ???!!!!!

As for knowing what 'people' (I assume you mean Americans) think of the EU - sure we know.

Never assume.
This is typical problem with picky Eurols. They misinterpret somebody's words and here we go with another "Balkan party".

We hear about all of the crazy ideas that certain American ideologues have about the EU. We find them hilarious (I especially loved the commentator who declared that the lack of air conditioning units in UK houses showed we were worse off than Americans...!).

blah blah blah .... let's wait for global warming to develop ... we will see who will laugh !!!!!
You do not know even how to build highways nor houses !!!!

[Duncan]

blah blah blah .... let's wait for global warming to develop ... we will see who will laugh !!!!!
You do not know even how to build highways nor houses !!!!

My apologies - my previous reply to you assumed you were capable of at least a basic level of rationality. I now realise my error.

[gorgoroth]

Haaa the smell of european bashing. I'm sure we can bring the discussion on every single subject ( why european have a food system? doesn't they want to rely on our macarony cheese?)
I dont' understand why you wouldn't want the two system to coexist. What is the interest on having only one? If european want's to spend their money on this system, why should it bother you? Will it shut down GPS signal? not at all. In the country of free market, why should you sundenly be concerned because a new product is released? GPS didn't evolve for years. It's about time some other services brings something new to the localisation services.
Don't always think the world is a big US. GPS is always working in your big landscapes. The concentration in europe make it difficult to reach a signal if you don't have highly sensitive chips like SIRF III. So I would go for an indoor service.
If US see Europe as a competitor, let me says they are not looking in the right direction. Asia is a much more competitive market, and is not only about china.
About the terrorist reason, I find this so funny I will not even answer to this. I just try to imagine a suicide bomber with a PDA trying to find the right spot on a map, or a north korean leader trying to buy secretely a GPS in the US using a fake ID. Please be serious. Do you think somebody is ready to press the shutdown button in the US in case of an attack, and that a stupid europeean would not syncronise himself with this shutdown order because ...heck we are european?

Anyway, I don't see why this discussion is going when you have CDMA and 80% of the world has GSM and you find this perfectly normal to have a competitive system.

[x51vuser]

My apologies - my previous reply to you assumed you were capable of at least a basic level of rationality. I now realise my error.

ok, no problem.
You can stay with your "basic rationality" and reinvent another wheel.

[Perry Reed]

There are around a dozen guidance systems available for use with long range missiles - only one of which relies on GPS. Most missile systems will use a combination of several. If a hostile power develops a guided nuke they will not be prevented from accurately targetting anywhere they want simply because GPS is switched off.

Plus - just to make this clear - the Galileo system can also be switched off or encrypted in times of emergency or war. Indeed - the most accurate usage of the system will be restricted to European and friendly powers anyway.

Actually, I've just read this morning of reports of unmanned "drones" using GPS guidance being used in attacks by Hizbollah (sp?) on Israel. so it's probably a good thing that GPS and the new Euro version can be switched off.

That said, I think this is probably more of a political statement than anything else. "Look, we can do GPS, too!" but a bit of redunancy never hurts and it will probably prove to be a good thing for most of us once receivers are sold that can use both networks for the most accurate reporting.

And to the person (sorry I forget who it was) who said that GPS receivers can't be used indoors.... That's not quite true. My receiver, a small Holux GPSlim 236 Bluetooth receiver, works just find indoors and far from windows. That's one of the reasons I picked it over other similar receivers.

[Duncan]

Actually, I've just read this morning of reports of unmanned "drones" using GPS guidance being used in attacks by Hizbollah (sp?) on Israel. so it's probably a good thing that GPS and the new Euro version can be switched off.

Nope. Modern systems are likely to be built withe the ability to use GPS - but not to rely on it. Switch GPS off and I guarantee that those drones will still work and do so accurately.

In an actual time of war (I mean a real war - not this 'War on Terrorism' idiocy that allows Bush to think he's the first president ever to face terrorism) GPS the world over will be restricted to the military - that's a given. Just don't run away with the idea that it will stop a single guided missile or drone.

That said, I think this is probably more of a political statement than anything else. "Look, we can do GPS, too!" but a bit of redunancy never hurts and it will probably prove to be a good thing for most of us once receivers are sold that can use both networks for the most accurate reporting.

To be frank - that sounds suspiciously like it is borne of this odd idea, that seems to permeate America, that Europe only acts out of some kind of political and social envy/petulance towards the USA. Simply put - Galileo is a better system, it takes away reliance on a foreign power (indeed - a foreign military) and gives us a competing technology with which to challenge the US system economically. It really has little to do with political statements.

Put simply - GPS was one of the few major modern technologies where we lagged behind (with Europe ahead of the US in several areas - and Far East Asia ahead of the whole lot of us in a number of areas). It has always been inevitable that we would plug that gap.

More to the point - why shouldn't we? What possible argument is there for just sitting around and waiting to be given whatever the US military decides to do when they can get round to it? I'm not even sure what the US ability to launch new satelites is these days - with the shuttle being such a lame duck. Last I can recall NASA (and US companies) were still having to buy space on ESA and commercial Arianespace launches.

[Paragon]

It's quite simple. Currently using GPS means trusting the US military and leadership to be competent. Here in Europe we grew to realise how utterly misplaced that trust is.

Duncan, the next time I'm in the UK I think you and I need to have a beer together...I'm buying. :beer:

As for the EU developing its own GPS system, it is a very prudent thing to do. GPS is about more than the soccer mom finding her way to the away games. As Arne Hess said, it's about much more than PPCs and personal navigation. Why leave something as important as that up to the whims of another government?!

....This terrorist card thing really needs to be torn up. It is being used as an excuse for far too many things.

Dave

[Jason Dunn]

This thread is on the razor's edge of becoming too political and being locked - please, people, let's keep this about the technology and not turn it into a political bash-fest.

[Janak Parekh]

please, people, let's keep this about the technology and not turn it into a political bash-fest.
The problem with this is that there is a significant political element behind Galileo's creation. :(

Anyway, to try and refocus this back on the technical side of things: for one, I would find the higher resolution pretty cool. As a regular of a dense city (and an insanely dense borough in that dense city), higher accuracy would make GPS more useful; for instance, I could imagine proximity-based services in future Pocket PCs. (bing "You are standing next to your favorite coffee shop!"... well, that's a bad example, seeing as how I don't drink coffee, but you get the idea.)

There's also been recent work on communication services that work using proximity (either to meet people, or a meetup feature, etc.) -- all of these would benefit with higher GPS resolutions. Of course, that assumes more Pocket PCs would integrate GPS technology.

--janak

[gorgoroth]

This thread is on the razor's edge of becoming too political and being locked - please, people, let's keep this about the technology and not turn it into a political bash-fest.
This is true, but if you read ed's news, you will find it's already politicaly oriented and not so technical. There is no info about each system abilities, the news is old news ( we know about galileo for years now) and the comment is all about the need for europeans to have an equivalent system.
I think this thread was lauched on the political side since the begining :roll:

[Perry Reed]

I'm going to stay away from the political comments and therefore will NOT reply to Duncan's remarks on my first comment.

One feature of the Euro system that I like is the ability to add ground-based stations to complement the sats. That would seem to me to be a very good solution for crowded cities where tall buildings make acquiring sat signals difficult or impossible. Don't XM and Sirius satellite radio have that capability as well? I seem to recall that someone else is doing it, but cannot remember just who.

[Steven Cedrone]

Anyway, to try and refocus this back on the technical side of things: for one, I would find the higher resolution pretty cool. As a regular of a dense city (and an insanely dense borough in that dense city), higher accuracy would make GPS more useful; for instance, I could imagine proximity-based services in future Pocket PCs. (bing "You are standing next to your favorite coffee shop!"... well, that's a bad example, seeing as how I don't drink coffee, but you get the idea.)

If it means it makes it easier for me to find my hidden tupperware (http://www.geocaching.com) in the woods, I am all for it!!! :wink:

[disconnected]

I have to agree that the original article seemed more political than technical. I also think that if Europe (or anyplace other than the US) had developed GPS first, that our US politicians would unanimously agree that we needed our own system, and should not rely on Europe to manage it. The same concerns have been raised about control of the internet.

[Duncan]

This thread is on the razor's edge of becoming too political and being locked - please, people, let's keep this about the technology and not turn it into a political bash-fest.

To be honest Jason - the very moment Ed asked the question it became a political discussion. There is no way to discsuss why Galileo is so important and necessary without reference to reliance on a system run by a foreign military power. Or that the US can turn GPS off or restrict it at their whim. Or that the EU is a competing economic power to the US. All of which has political implications.

The technical question answers itself - a better system is a better system - and why would anyone not want that?

[mcsouth]

All politics aside, I think that we can probably all agree on a few points here; redundancy is a good thing, especially when that redundancy is based on different systems run by different interests. It makes perfect sense to me that Europe would develop their own system to reduce their dependance on a foreign-based system - especially when GPS-based technology is becoming a critical part of the economy.

Considering the age of the GPS system, I would expect that Galileo would be significantly more accurate and offer better penetration/reception in congested areas - technology continues to advance in these areas, and the expertise is certainly not restricted to the US.

The part about Bush stating they will shut the GPS system if necessary is probably a pretty remote issue; shutting down GPS would almost immediately cripple the US economy (not that Bush hasn't been doing pretty good at that anyways). Numerous industries rely on GPS technology on a daily basis to run their business - long haul trucking, delivery firms, even agriculture is starting to rely on GPS for precision farming applications. Shutting down the GPS network for even a little bit will have a significant ripple effect on the economy. As others have mentioned, shutting down GPS would have limited effect on terrorist actions anyways, especially when you inform them of this fact!

Regarding accuracy, there are several ways to get a "free" differential signal to tighten up the GPS accuracy. Our company sells several different GPS-based autoguidance systems for agricultural equipment that starts at 10 inch accuracy, and goes all the way down to sub-inch accuracy - assuming you want to spring for your own RTK base station. These are affordable systems you can buy today, so the idea that GPS is limited to 15 foot accuracy is not true when using differential correction.

And as far as the "us v. them" thing, I think we could all agree that there are plenty of foolish persons in public office around the world - they are not all confined to the US. We've certainly had our fair share in Canada....

[signothefish]

I love it!

All politics aside... blah blah blah... not that Bush hasn't been doing pretty good at that anyways... blah blah blah... there are plenty of foolish persons in public office around the world - they are not all confined to the US... blah blah blah...

Just can't help yourself, can you? :mrgreen:

[Kris Kumar]

I like the increased accuracy. It means now you can use GPS while you are on your feet, navigating your way thru a market.

Not to mention, someday it will let me program my lawn mower to mow my yard instead of my neighbour's. ;-)

[myuser]

I'm going to have to chime in and say that more redundancy is always better. Besides, I can understand the EU's need for an independent system, especially when they feel the current system isn't accessible enough to provide for the economic growth and prosperity that Europe has in its sights.

I love it!

All politics aside... blah blah blah... not that Bush hasn't been doing pretty good at that anyways... blah blah blah... there are plenty of foolish persons in public office around the world - they are not all confined to the US... blah blah blah...

Just can't help yourself, can you? :mrgreen:


Hey signothefish, at least he's stating his opinion in an intelligent, coherent and logical way. Can the same be said about YOUR contribution to this thread? :roll:

[Duncan]

And as far as the "us v. them" thing, I think we could all agree that there are plenty of foolish persons in public office around the world - they are not all confined to the US. We've certainly had our fair share in Canada....

At the risk of getting told off - a colleague of mine who teaches politics once summed up the difference between European and US politics as:

'We elect corruptible fools. They elect corrupted idiots."

[jarekt]

Nothing is better for technological progress than competition so I love the idea of double system (Galileo and GPS) positioning devices as i love the idea of having choice when i'm to buy anything (PC OS for example). From my experience GPS is not accurate at all (few meters with my SFII) and thats not only problem with GPS (downloading almanach and efemeryds [sorry 4 my english :P] can take more than an hour and is simply impossible during drive through urban area which means that Your fresh bought receiver switched on in car will not work at all during all journey, as the matter of fact TTF from warm start also should be improved). Even with the same accuracy as GPS using both system simltanesly will double Your satisfaction with using positioning device. What du You want more?

PS. Flame war based on GPS discusion? That' something I haven't seen before ROTFL.

[signothefish]

Hey signothefish, at least he's stating his opinion in an intelligent, coherent and logical way. Can the same be said about YOUR contribution to this thread? :roll:

I have restrained myself well, but many of you have been bashing the US and Bush, without any intervention by Jason. I can carry on an intelligent, well thought out political argument, but this isn't the place to do it. Many of you have not heeded his warning, and this thread will get locked soon enough, because you just can't leave well enough alone. @Duncan, that's enough. Seriously.

[Ed Hansberry]

At the risk of getting told off - a colleague of mine who teaches politics once summed up the difference between European and US politics as:

'We elect corruptible fools. They elect corrupted idiots."
Are you the way you are on purpose or is it simply beyond your control to act this way? What possilbe way could your comment benefit this discussion and community?

[Duncan]

At the risk of getting told off - a colleague of mine who teaches politics once summed up the difference between European and US politics as:

'We elect corruptible fools. They elect corrupted idiots."
Are you the way you are on purpose or is it simply beyond your control to act this way?

Ed - it was a joke. A joke at the expense of all of us (or at least all of our politicians). Nothing more than a quip after a heated discussion. Obviously in retrospect I shouldn't have made it (sorry Jason) but hardly enough to warrant the above.

In fairness, you did start this thread with a question that could only be fully answered in terms of politics and EU/US competition (as others have pointed out too) - seriously - what did you think would happen? How did you envision the reasons behind Galileo being discussed?

[DimensionZero]

Okay, there's one point which everyone seems to have missed over all this political stuff... I think one person slightly touched on it and that's the fact that there will always be technological advancement...

What's the point of building a new system?
Well, one could ask why build faster computers? Our current ones work, so why bother?

Without some kind of rivalry, we would be stuck in the stone age and never move forward.

That's my 2 cents...

[TimFountain]

OK firstly it was too hard for Europe to swallow the idea of having major operations over here relying on US controlled technology, also the Euro version will have a built in warning system if it loses track of where you are making it suitable for plane landings, the UK is looking at charging by mileage ..having every car fitted with GPS, this wouldn't really be politically possible using a US system, of course there allready is another GPS , the Russians have had one for years.

The increased accuracy is a bit mute because the US is allready working on an updated GPS themselves.

Erm, an Aircraft approach certified GPS uses a technology called RAIM (Received Autonomous Integrated Monitoring) to ensure the reliability of the GPS guidance. This require majority voting an hence at least one more satellite to be in view than for a straight 3-D fix (5 vs. 4). Several newer GPS approaches in the US have the same minimums as a CAT-I ILS approach (200 Decision Height and 1/2SM Vis.). The WAAS panel mounted GPS receiver in the plane I fly normally reports 6ft accuracy.

Main reason Europe want their own GPS system is so they can charge for it. Also they were unhappy that the US gov could pull the plug without any notice, which to be fair to the EU is a pretty good reason to establish your own system....

Accuracy of GPS is improved by sending a correction signal that is sent from a number of fixed locations on the ground to a set of geostationary satellites and then back the the GPS receiver on a different frequency from the GPS signal. This is called WAAS (Wide Area Augmentation Service). The EU has their onw local one, sent from a nearby, local, FM transmitter, which is called LAAS (Local ....). I believe only Stuttgart is trailing LAAS.

- Tim (PP ASEL, Tailwheel, Complex, High performance, IR Student)

[JakeRich]

OK firstly it was too hard for Europe to swallow the idea of having major operations over here relying on US controlled technology, also the Euro version will have a built in warning system if it loses track of where you are making it suitable for plane landings, the UK is looking at charging by mileage ..having every car fitted with GPS, this wouldn't really be politically possible using a US system, of course there allready is another GPS , the Russians have had one for years.

The increased accuracy is a bit mute because the US is allready working on an updated GPS themselves.

Erm, an Aircraft approach certified GPS uses a technology called RAIM (Received Autonomous Integrated Monitoring) to ensure the reliability of the GPS guidance. This require majority voting an hence at least one more satellite to be in view than for a straight 3-D fix (5 vs. 4). Several newer GPS approaches in the US have the same minimums as a CAT-I ILS approach (200 Decision Height and 1/2SM Vis.). The WAAS panel mounted GPS receiver in the plane I fly normally reports 6ft accuracy.

Main reason Europe want their own GPS system is so they can charge for it. Also they were unhappy that the US gov could pull the plug without any notice, which to be fair to the EU is a pretty good reason to establish your own system....

Accuracy of GPS is improved by sending a correction signal that is sent from a number of fixed locations on the ground to a set of geostationary satellites and then back the the GPS receiver on a different frequency from the GPS signal. This is called WAAS (Wide Area Augmentation Service). The EU has their onw local one, sent from a nearby, local, FM transmitter, which is called LAAS (Local ....). I believe only Stuttgart is trailing LAAS.

- Tim (PP ASEL, Tailwheel, Complex, High performance, IR Student)Tim, good assessment but a small correction. DGPS, or Differential GPS, uses a local GPS receiver and transmitter near the airport to do the corrections, particularly for altitude, that were needed for GPS to be reliable for approaches. Basically, it knows where it is from a very accurate survey, and when it receives a fix from the GPS satellite receiver it compares that known location to the calculated fix and broadcasts the difference as a correction signal that the receiver in the aircraft then applies to the fix it has calculated. Hence the "differential" part of the name. Eventually someone came up with the idea of sending the DGPS correction to a stationary satellite and broadcasting "regional" corrections--not as accurate as the DGPS corrections because they cover a wider area, but more accurate than just a 3D fix. Hence, the name Wide Area Augmentation System (WAAS). EGNOS is the Galileo version of WAAS and works essentially the same way. I think LAAS is a variation of the DGPS approach, but I'm not absolutely sure of that.

As for the rest of the discussion, I can understand the motivations to establish Galileo--it could be a money maker and it establishes an independent system. Of course, it remains to be seen exactly who will be willing to pay for that increased accuracy and whether or not that income covers the expenses of launch and operations, but it is an interesting model. Be fun to watch!

[davea0511]

What a bunch of baloney!!!

... turning off GPS would've made ZERO difference on 9/11 and since all the aircraft in service today that use GPS as -one of the- means for navigation, even turning off GPS will hardly impact navigation to begin with.

... a measure like turning off GPS if you suspect that a terrorist is hijacking one plane is completely overboard.

Grbld

A crude missile guidance system could easily be made using GPS - far easier to do than with vision based systems. GPS would have made no difference in 9/11 and hijackings, but there are many scenarious where it could be a very powerful strategy.

The US should retain that right to shut off GPS if needed, and other nations would be foolish to solely rely on it.

It's just like the free wifi argument. You're welcome to use it - perhaps even encouraged to, but you better not plan a critical event that depends on it being there. That's just foolish. The owner of the free wifi point has the right to shut it off at any time, and should do so if the wifi point starts hurting his business.

[davea0511]

I'm not concerned about aircraft as much as I am guided missiles. With countries like Iran and North Korea trying to acquire nuclear weapons, all they have to do is take advantage of the US GPS system. But if they shut that down, they can use EU's GPS system to fulfill the mission.
During a missile strike of any kind (especially N Korea) I'm sure the EU would shut off their GPS system, if for no other reason than to avoid the suspicion of colluding with the enemy.

[davea0511]

I like the increased accuracy. It means now you can use GPS while you are on your feet, navigating your way thru a market.

Not to mention, someday it will let me program my lawn mower to mow my yard instead of my neighbour's. ;-)

Can we blame GPS if it "accidentally" mows over the neighbors cat?

:wink:

[davea0511]

At the risk of getting told off...

Here's a freindly suggestion: if a moderator says a thread is on the verge of being shut down, and then you feel the need to reply with something that starts out "At the rist of getting told off..", then please don't. Just please don't post whatever that last unwelcome word that you feel you just have to say.

I hope the thread keeps going because it's an important topic from a technical standpoint. My vote is that the moderator bans those that are stirring the pot rather than shutting down a valuable thread. Even if the pot stirrer is another moderator or a pillar in the community. We all make mistakes, and nothing should make us immune from consequences. I've been personally reprimanded myself before (years ago), and I'm glad that happened instead of having the thread shut down.

Enough said on that topic.

[Rob Alexander]

If it means it makes it easier for me to find my hidden tupperware (http://www.geocaching.com) in the woods, I am all for it!!! :wink:

Not me, man. The HUNT is half the fun. If my GPS were accurate to &lt;3 feet, I'd always be right on top of the cache. Where's the challenge in that? The higher level of accuracy could totally ruin the sport! :lol:

[Steven Cedrone]

Not me, man. The HUNT is half the fun. If my GPS were accurate to &lt;3 feet, I'd always be right on top of the cache. Where's the challenge in that? The higher level of accuracy could totally ruin the sport! :lol:

It would be up to the person hiding the cache to NOT put the coords dead on! :) I do agree though, it would make it a little too easy...

[abigsmurf]

people seem to be missing some of the reasoning behind this new system. Yes it creates independance from the US but it has two other main plus points:

The sub metre accuracy available to EVERYONE, not just big businesses.

It uses a transmission system far superior to GPS. Ever had a GPS system go haywire in an area with lots of tall buildings? The gallileo system is much much better in terms of penetrive ability. As a result tall buildings, thick cloud cover and other sorts of interference have a much reduced effect. If you do lots of city driving, this system is a godsend.

The citizens of the EU have paid for this and made it available to everyone around the world for nothing. Why bash them for it?