Standard for eBooks?

[Ed Hansberry]

<a href="http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=6833">http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=6833</a><br /><br />On the whole, eBooks have not been much of a success. At best it is a niche market with limited appeal to people that have devices that can use them. It seems Microsoft's own Reader application has been left for dead, both on the desktop and mobile device, and with that insane DRM implementation, good riddance. Every hardware implementation seems to have fallen by the wayside too. I haven't heard much of Sony's latest product in this area either, the <a href="http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=6833">Sony Reader</a>. Much of the problem is the books are in multiple formats. Some ebooks are only availble in one of the multiple formats - MS Reader, eReader.com (Palm .pdb), Adobe or worse, something totally proprietery to a given site. Perhaps that is all about to change.<br /><br /><i>"The e-book industry has come to agreement on e-book standard standards. Yes! Agreement by the e-book industry on standards. It's not completely finalized yet, but we appear to be on the verge of a monumental achievement that will propel the industry forward. "The combined standards efforts will result in a non-proprietary way for publishers to deliver digital books through the distribution chain to consumers, similar to the MP3 format for digital music. No patent encumbrances are expected of either new specification."</i><br /><br />I hope this comes to pass, but for now, I'll file this under "I'll believe it when I see it."

[paschott]

I don't know if it's the proprietary nature of the e-book formats that has killed the product so much as the fact that DRM locks you in to one device for the most part and that an e-book costs as much as the full retail of a hardback. Why would I buy an e-book if I can buy a paperback version of the book for 1/4 of the cost?

I really like e-books. I like being able to load HTML, CHM, TXT, RTF, or PDB files on my PPC and read them as needed. Project Gutenberg provides quite a bit of material and the books I get that come with a CHM file can be loaded and read with uBook - easy reference material at times.

I look forward to seeing what develops from this as well. I really hope that e-books can drop in price to the point that they're reasonable and that they'll be usable in a way that won't make us buy the book again if we change devices.

-Pete

[SteveHoward999]

Not sure where the idea that MSReader format is dead came from. Judging from the thousands of books available in that format - legal or otherwise - there is huge demand for it. There is also large demand for HTML, PDF and other formats too...

But I'm sure, given the choice, users would prefer a standard file format that allows them to choose a reader on features and functionality, rather than, say, being locked into what is most readaily available, or the application who's format the book library is built with.

[cgavula]

It appears that all they've done is agree to a container standard. Not that that isn't a huge thing, it speaks nothing of the underlying document standard or the DRM standard. So really, at this point, nothing is resolved.

I believe the two biggest problems are as mentioned: The incompatible DRM standards (requiring multiple reader programs) and the pricepoints being too high. No one will buy an ebook if the paper copy is cheaper.

Now if they can agree to the rest we'll have someting!

--Chris

[tendomentis]

I've always liked Repligo, because it formats the text so cleanly both on a pocket pc and a smartphone. And, I can print directly to Repligo from any application.

All of my ebooks are in PDF format though. I just convert them on the fly to Repligo when I want to bring one along on my handheld.

[paschott]

I've always liked Repligo, because it formats the text so cleanly both on a pocket pc and a smartphone. And, I can print directly to Repligo from any application.

All of my ebooks are in PDF format though. I just convert them on the fly to Repligo when I want to bring one along on my handheld.

Repligo is cool, but it doesn't work as well as I'd like for some formats. For PDF files (after conversion), though - it's awesome. I just wasn't able to easily use it to move around with just the D-Pad, something I really look for when reading an e-book. Generally, I'll try to convert my docs to HTML/RTF and then zip them. I can then use uBook to read the resulting file.

There are even some PDF Converters available in Open Source, though the names are escaping me right now. Useful to convert the PDF to HTML or something that can be read with a more lightweight reader. :)

-Pete

[joker]

RepliGo works anytime, anywhere. It handles any printable information, and everything is printable.

Btw WHO cares for a so-called "ebook standard" anyway? RepliGo is my standard, since YEARS now!

Heck, you could even use the Adobe Reader as "your personal" standard, just the same way as with RepliGo, but then the Adobe Reader has a much worse performance and eats a huge amount of CPU-power constantly.

[Tierran]

It appears that all they've done is agree to a container standard. Not that that isn't a huge thing, it speaks nothing of the underlying document standard or the DRM standard. So really, at this point, nothing is resolved.

I believe the two biggest problems are as mentioned: The incompatible DRM standards (requiring multiple reader programs) and the pricepoints being too high. No one will buy an ebook if the paper copy is cheaper.

Now if they can agree to the rest we'll have someting!

--Chris

I've never seen an ebook that was more expensive than a paper book

[VanHlebar]

When it comes to ebooks for novels, I only purchase ebooks now. I haven't purchased a hard cover or paperback book in over 5 years. I use ereader books only as the DRM is easy to use, and ports over to as many devices as I want. If I change my credit card number, then I just redownload the books with the new card number and I am off and running again.

As for the price point of the ebooks, well this has been debated for every also and will continue to be debated. For me, I have come to the conclusion that I am willing to pay a convience fee for having books readily available when ever I want them. If I want to purchase a book while sitting at my son's soccer tournament and start reading it I can, can't do that with a paper back book.

I realize and understand the arguments made for the lower price of ebooks, but I also understand that there is a bit more work to getting books into an ebook format.

I think the fact that there hopefully will be a standard container for ebooks is a huge step forward. Now it will allow us to pick the reader we want based on the functions of the reader itself, one of which might very well be the DRM that that particular reader uses.

My biggest gripe on ebooks, is that not all authors or publishing companies will release books in this format. Hopefully this will change and I am starting to see many more titles available as each year goes by.

-Eric

[paschott]

I've never seen an ebook that was more expensive than a paper book

Almost every book I've looked at has been more expensive. Maybe that's changed recently, but generally speaking - if I want to buy an e-book shortly after it comes out in hardback, the book should be cheaper than the hardback. It doesn't require nearly as much overhead to provide me that e-book. No warehouse, no distribution, no seller, no shipping, no printing cost. The only costs associated would be royalties for the publisher/author, storage/bandwidth costs which should be minimal for all but the most popular/large e-books, and whatever time is spent on converting/protecting the book (which should be pretty minimal unless doing a lot of bookmarks or other custom features). Even giving the author and publisher slightly more money, the cost should not come out to nearly as much as producing a paper book. Still, the costs have really kept me from buying a new book in e-book format despite the convenience.

Also, if you're seeing them for approximately the same cost as the paperback, please share the website(s). I'm sure others will be interested as well. :D

-Pete

[Tierran]

eReader (formerly Peanut Press)...one of the most common places to get eBooks is the myserious place I go.

Anne McCaffrey's new Pern book is $24.95 in hardcover right now.

You can get it at Amazon for $20.46 after shipping.

Or you can get it for $16.16 at eReader.

[pivaska]

I use either Haili Reader or MS Reader. So far I have not purchased an ebook because Gutenburg Press has a zillion of them for free. I just haven't caught up yet on those "I've always wanted to read." I read about an book every week and a half using a Dell Axim 51V and have not had any problems. Some people just need a "book" in their hands because "it feels right." When I started with my PDA it didn't feel right either but you get use to it. I can even read in the dark in bed and not disturb my wife.

[pjtrader]

I'm really not sure why everyone automatically assumes that ebooks should be cheaper than paper books. The money we pay isn't simply the cost of the paper, it includes the overhead of the publishing house, advances and royalties to the author, paying the editorial staff, sales, marketing, copy editor, art staff, etc. In fact, from most of the popular e-book sites the most sold books are those that are produced in print format. Most would even venture to say that ebook only produced books suffer because they do not generally have the quality in editorial staff, art, etc that the major publishers have.

With e-format, you have the electronic delivery and DRM concepts to handle. With paper, you have shipping and handling. So I think it's pretty naive of us to assume that just because we get our books in e-format that we deserve to have them at a substantial discount.

But that's just my 2cents worth...wholly unresearched and unsubstantiated.

[cgavula]

eReader (formerly Peanut Press)...one of the most common places to get eBooks is the myserious place I go.

Anne McCaffrey's new Pern book is $24.95 in hardcover right now.

You can get it at Amazon for $20.46 after shipping.

Or you can get it for $16.16 at eReader.

And Stephen R. Donaldson's The Runes of the Earth is $26.95 hardcover, but only $5.99 in paper and yet it's still $14.40 (best price) at ereader. That is definitely NOT cheaper. ereader often doesn't lower the prices of titles that have gone to paperback until LONG after they are out in paperback (never in some cases).

--Chris

[Tierran]

So what you're saying is that comparison shopping still is a smart thing to do. :roll:

[JonMisurda]

eReader (formerly Peanut Press)...one of the most common places to get eBooks is the myserious place I go.

Anne McCaffrey's new Pern book is $24.95 in hardcover right now.

You can get it at Amazon for $20.46 after shipping.

Or you can get it for $16.16 at eReader.

And Stephen R. Donaldson's The Runes of the Earth is $26.95 hardcover, but only $5.99 in paper and yet it's still $14.40 (best price) at ereader. That is definitely NOT cheaper. ereader often doesn't lower the prices of titles that have gone to paperback until LONG after they are out in paperback (never in some cases).

--Chris

It's $10.40 at amazon for the MS Reader version. I've found Amazon to be cheapest usually when they have the eBook.

Jon

[paschott]

So what you're saying is that comparison shopping still is a smart thing to do. :roll:

I think the point is that the eBook doesn't drop in price corresponding to the paper book. When a paperback is available and 1/3 the cost of an eBook, who's going to buy the eBook except for someone who wants the book in that format?

I still think that this pricing is one of the factors that keeps sales of e-books from being a success. Yes, it's cheaper than the hardcover when it first comes out. However, once I can get even the hardcover for less due to sellers wanting to move the hardcover out to make room for more books or whatever - it just doesn't make sense to buy an e-Book at that point pricewise. Add in the DRM restrictions of most formats (I think eReader has this DRM about as good as it gets - who wants to share their CC#?) and it's just not worth it for the consumer.

If it's not worth the price for the consumer, why should publishers support the format? They won't see sales and won't bother investing in the technology.

However, give me an e-Book when it comes out at close to paperback prices and/or drop the price accordingly with the current retail price of the book and I'll be interested. Don't try to sell me a book that's years old and available in the bargain bins @ bookstores at 4x the price.

I really wish I had some data about the actual costs involved to compare. I still think that the overhead would be much lower for an eBook just by getting around all of the middle-men and the difference in cost could be justified.

Interesting thread and concept. I'll be watching to see how the new technology develops as well.

-Pete

[Tierran]

I very often find ebooks priced lower too...I've never bought a book that was more than the paper back :)

[Felix Torres]

ebook pricing is all over the place.
The only constant is that, except for Baen, nobody prices ebooks cheaper than paperbacks as a policy.
DRM or no DRM, ebooks are massless and frictionless, and hence should not under any condition cost more than treeware, yet they are rarely discounted appropriately. Mostly because publishers only provide half-hearted support out of fear of piracy.

Personally, I see very little in the above-listed announcement.
It is a half-step forward but it does *nothing* to change the existing market dynamic where PDAs, Tablets, and the ebookwise reader are the only widely-available readers worth buying. And neither of the three platforms is exactly drawing crowds.
Basically, this is just another example of PR-ware echoed by a wishful-thinker.

For any ebook format announcement to show me any credibility it has to start by listing a firm commitment of full-catalog support by at least the top three publishers in the US. And that isn't hapenning any time soon.

[juni]

MS Reader isn't dead, it is still the best one out there in my opinion. The MS Word reader plugin is a great free tool for creating ebooks :).

I only buy paper books if I can't find an ebook version. It feels weird holding a big book these days. :D

[ChristopherTD]

I have bought lots of books in MS Reader and eReader format. Having moved to a VGA device I am reading eReader books only because it has support for VGA (MS Reader doesn't) and because I can read all the books I purchased by entering the unlock codes (which are under my control).

MS won't activate my new PPC, claiming I am out of activations, which isn't surprising given that their method of detecting devices is flaky and you have no way to deactivate a device you no longer use.

Although I have championed MS Reader in the past, I shan't be purchasing any more titles in that format. If I want to read the books I own first I have to steal them. It isn't right!

As for a common format, I am not holding my breath. The OEBP format was hijacked by the vendors and has become a proprietary closed (and seemingly moribund) format. Interestingly the more restrictive the DRM the quicker a tool appears to defeat it. There don't seem to be any tools to break eReader DRM because it is flexible enough to satisfy legitimate uses, and to deter sharing, one of the keys is a credit card number.

[DaleReeck]

MS will give activate your device if you do that email thing on the activation web site and ask them for a new activation. Given how often I get new devices (alot), I've had to have them manually activate my device 20 times already over the last few years :)

But in the end it doesn't matter which reader is better. Not every book is available in every format. You use whatever reader you need to. If I have a choice, I try to use eReader, but often you don't have a choice.

[Felix Torres]

Not every book is available in every format.

Or available at all.
Which is what is really holding ebooks back.
Simple drill: look at th NYT Best seller's list; how many of the top 100 are available in ebook form? At what list price?
Or, check the monthly mailer from any of the book clubs; How many of the selections are available in ebook form at all?

Sure, out-of-copyright stuff is readily available.
(And Penguin is not amused. My heart fair bleeds for them. Not!)
And some publishers, like Baen, go out of their way to have a solid catalog. But even *they* don't offer their full catalog in ebook form.

The sheer hit-or-miss nature of the offerings coupled with the erratic prices and downright stupid designs and pricing for most of the dedicated reader hardware is holding back the development of ebooks and all the fuss over formats is just fiddling on the margins.
Meaningless.

[ChristopherTD]

MS will give activate your device if you do that email thing on the activation web site and ask them for a new activation. Given how often I get new devices (alot), I've had to have them manually activate my device 20 times already over the last few years :)

But in the end it doesn't matter which reader is better. Not every book is available in every format. You use whatever reader you need to. If I have a choice, I try to use eReader, but often you don't have a choice.

I have done that activation dance many times too - but now that MS Reader itself doesn't support my VGA device very well, I can't be bothered. Eventually they may update the software and I might revisit it, but in the meantime I will drain my eReader backlog!

[hamishmacdonald]

As a reader, I'll never again buy a DRM-locked book because of all the hassles that happen with MS Reader whenever I buy a new device. Activation limits, the process not working with the latest OS, etc etc. Sorry, no thanks. I feel burned.

As an author, I'm experimenting with eBooks and finding that offering them for free, unlocked, is a good way to reach people who are:
a) far away
b) possibly hesitant to spend money on an unknown author.

I've created properly laid-out PDF and LIT versions of my novel for my website, but the host of www.ManyBooks.net has a script that can turn any sort of raw text into just about every e-book format going, and I've had way more downloads (in the hundreds) from his site.

So that's my experience in the field.

[jgrnt1]

It's not just the proprietary nature of DRM, it's the varying implementations. I use Mobipocket Reader exclusively on my iPAQ 4700. It's the only reader I've installed for several years. However, when I change devices, I have to redownload all of my ebooks, which is a huge task. A universal device, or universal software, won't fix this. I'd still have to redownload all the books because of the DRM implementation.

With books, when I buy them, they're mine for life. With ebooks, they're mine until I change devices, update the ROM, etc., then I have to go get them again. What happens if Mobipocket dies in five or ten years and I can't get a new PID for my new device? My entire library of ebooks will have been wiped out. DRM needs to be tied to me, not a device. That way, I'll always have the ebooks.

[VanHlebar]

It's not just the proprietary nature of DRM, it's the varying implementations. I use Mobipocket Reader exclusively on my iPAQ 4700. It's the only reader I've installed for several years. However, when I change devices, I have to redownload all of my ebooks, which is a huge task. A universal device, or universal software, won't fix this. I'd still have to redownload all the books because of the DRM implementation.

With books, when I buy them, they're mine for life. With ebooks, they're mine until I change devices, update the ROM, etc., then I have to go get them again. What happens if Mobipocket dies in five or ten years and I can't get a new PID for my new device? My entire library of ebooks will have been wiped out. DRM needs to be tied to me, not a device. That way, I'll always have the ebooks.

Well this isn't the case with eReader. I have changed my device about 6 times over the past 2 years and I have never had to redownload my books. Since I have never changed my credit card that I used to purchase the books with, all I have to do is plug the SD card into the new device and I am back up and running again.

I think that eReader has a great DRM solution, the problem as someone has already stated, is that they don't always have the best selection of books available. It is getting better and I have watched more and more books become available in the past 4 years. I just wish that more publishers/authors would see the light that if you provide it to us in a format that we are looking for, we won't be forced to get it in an illegal fashion.

-Eric

[disconnected]

A standardized format seems like a good thing, but I'd also like some way to guarantee continued access to my ebooks.

I buy almost all of my books from ereader (with a few from Powells or Fictionwise in the ereader format, and very few in other formats -- mslit or mobipocket). I'm not a big fan of DRM, but at least ereader's is pretty easy to live with. However, the problem of losing access to my whole library still exists. If ereader goes out of business, sooner or later the software won't be able to be run on whatever operating systems we'll be using then. At that point I guess I'd be willing to become a criminal and buy any illegal software that's written to convert the books.

I agree that prices are all over the place (and don't consistently change to keep up with the paper prices). I'm willing to live with that, but it can't be helping to promote widespread adoption.

I also think that makers of devices that are used for reading (PPCs, tablets, dedicated readers, or whatever), do a terrible job of promoting the devices for this purpose. My husband and I tend to read ebooks in restaurants on our PPCs (we're not very good company :) ), and almost daily either a server or another customer will come up and ask us about them; hardly anyone even knows that ebooks (or PPCs) exist! I wish Microsoft or the OEMs would try harder to exploit this market -- I don't know what I'll do if/when PPCs with decent sized VGA screens disappear. Does anyone read ebooks on a phone screen? I don't think my eyes are good enough, buy maybe younger people can manage it. If Sprint, etc. offer music downloads, maybe they should offer ebook downloads as well.

Whenever a new book is published that I want to read, I try to get it in ebook form. I'd estimate only about 15 to 20% of them are available as ebooks. I won't buy hardcovers because they're not portable enough, so publishers would get more of my money than they currently do if they released everything as ebooks. (I'd pay the hardcover price for the ebooks instead of waiting for the paperback).

I don't know much about the mechanics of publishing, but I'd assume that all current hardcopy books must exist in some digital format so I'd think formatting them as ebooks shouldn't be too expensive.

I don't understand why the publishers worry about ebook piracy. If a book is really popular, the paper copy will be scanned. If it's not really popular, they should be pleased for any additional sales from an ebook version.

It would also be nice if publishers would release more of their back catalog as ebooks. Most books totally disappear from bookstores within months of publication. I can see why physical space is scarce, but this wouldn't be a problem with ebooks. I was thrilled when Harper Collins (perfectbound) released almost every Agatha Christie book as an ebook. I bought them all, even though I'd probably read most of them two or three times already.

[Steve Jordan]

Creating a common e-book format will clearly improve some situations, and complicate others. Personally, I see it as mostly a plus to have a common format: You'll have a choice of multiple readers, allowing you to pick the one whose features you prefer; A standardized format will help guarantee its longetivity in the market; and competition over one format will help straighten out a lot of the draconian DRM issues, sales, costs, and availability.

It may take some time to work out some of these issues (especially DRM and cost), but the intervention of just one or two inspired e-book producers could fix that faster than you'd expect.

I was sorry to NOT see Sony or Microsoft listed as supporters, but if this idea gets fully off the ground, hopefully that will change. We don't need another VHS/Betamax War.

If this does become a universal format, I know I'll be using it for my books. Why not? The worst that can happen is... just one more format...

[dawgpoundfan]

I have read well over 100 books on my various PocketPCs. I am amazed it does not catch on more. Some of the reasons I like it over paper:

1. Instant access to my book no matter when and where, I used the 6700 so my phone is my book. Standing in line at the Post Office I check email then read a few pages.

2. When I was bottle feeding my two children at night the only thing that kept me going was the ability to read while the lights were out, with just a faint glow of the screen it never bothered the kids - try that with a hardbook.

3. True one-handed reading. I don't need to set my drink or burger down to turn pages just toggle

4. Read at night and not wake up my wife - trust me you don't want to wake up my wife at night w/out just cause.

5. Rarely do I read a book twice - but ereader has my order from 12/17/2004 sitting there waiting for re-download if I want - you can't tell me you can find every paperback you ever read 2 1/2 years ago in one minute like I can with ereader? Plus they take WAY less room :).

6. I bought Darwin's Children/Darwin's Radio two book special for 4.99 on ereader. I just looked up the price on amazon for the paperback and they are 7.99 EACH new....

7. Ark Ship by Sonny Whitelaw is available on Amazon for 18.99 paperback - yep that is right look it up - but I read it on ereader for 5.12....

8. On Amazon paperback (regular purchase, not used) I can get The Reckoning 7.99 (Jeff Long), State of Union 7.99 (Thor), Path of the Assassin 7.50(Thor), and Lions of Lucerne 7.50 (Thor) for a total of
30.47. I bought these all at once on ereader for 20.33.

I am just using Amazon as a benchmark because it is big and has fairly decent prices. I almost ALWAYS save money over paperbacks. Three are so many to choose from, don't focus on the "just out of hardback" or "on the discount rack hardback" books. The vast majority of books have been in paperback for a long time, and usually ereader is cheaper!

If you are willing to read new authors and are looking for a GREAT way to read a lot of books whenever and wherever you want ereader is a huge advantage over paperbacks and hardcovers.

[davea0511]

Phooey! Ebooks are history. Have you heard of the latest rage? It's called a "BOOK" (just drop the "E" at the beginning and you've got the correct pronunciation). It has tons of advantages over the antiquated and failing "Ebook" format. Just read this news blurb:

B.O.O.K.

Introducing the new Bio-Optic Organized Knowledge device - trade named B.O.O.K.

B.O.O.K. is a revolutionary breakthrough in technology: no wires, no downloading required, no format converting required, no DRM, no electric circuits to go bad, no batteries to replace or to go bad, no charging involved, completely nonvolatile memory, and nothing to be connected or switched on.

It's so easy to use, even a child can operate it. Compact and portable, it can be used anywhere, even when sitting in an armchair by the fire - yet it is powerful enough to hold as much information as a CD-ROM disc.

It is composed of hundreds of incredibly thin and flexible opaque displays called "sheets", each capable of holding thousands of bits of information in sequential order, which are stacked and bound at one edge. A flick of the finger takes you to the next sheet. What's more there's no boot-up time to start reading! B.O.O.K. may be taken up at any time and used by merely opening it. B.O.O.K. never crashes or requires rebooting.

An optional "BOOKmark" accessory allows you to open B.O.O.K. to the exact place you left it in a previous session, with no boot-up time or screen clicking at all. Numerous B.O.O.K. markers can be used in a single B.O.O.K. if the user wants to store numerous views simultaneously for extremely easy data retrieval. The number of BOOKmarks is limited only by the number of pages in the B.O.O.K. You can also make personal notes next to B.O.O.K. text entries with an optional programming tool, the Portable Erasable Nib Cryptic Intercommunication Language Stylus (P.E.N.C.I.L.S.)

Portable, durable, affordable, and almost always usable as freeware (see below), B.O.O.K. is being hailed as the precursor of a new entertainment wave. Also, B.O.O.K.'s appeal seems so certain that thousands of content creators have committed to the platform. What's more: nearly all publishers worldwide have immediately committed to publishing more content to B.O.O.K. devices than to any other medium, and are already meeting that objective, overnight!

Lastly in a spirit of good will and openess most titles are free to borrow by going to a L.I.B.R.A.R.Y. (pronounced "lie-brairee") Nobody knows what this acronym stands for, but the fact that these wonderful and well stocked suppositories exist already in almost every town and city is almost mind boggling even to the greatest minds of the century. Many people believe this fact alone is reason enough to ditch all other reading devices altogether.

[dawgpoundfan]

Hmmmm, Book......hmmmmmm.....nope, doesn't ring a bell. LIBRARY....isn't that Give me Library or give me death? yea I remember that.

[nategesner]

I love e-books but got tired of reading the free classics. The simple fact is that the majority of new books seem to cost more than if I were to purchase them in paperback. This makes no sense and tells me that the market is still a small, weak group. Until significant users exist, we'll not have the power to force change, much like the digital music world is still experiencing. And, yes, I still love the feel of a good book in my hands, the smell of the paper, the sound of the pages flipping, etc. But there are plenty of pros for having e-books and both can exist simultaneously.

As for DRM, why don't they just assign a "license" to the individual, much like a driver's license, library card, social security number, etc. Every time the user makes a purchase, he is required to enter his individual user numer and the number is imbedded in the file. He also loads the number into his music player, book reader, etc. When the file license matches the player license, it functions. Pretty simple, but that's why I'm not a software engineer...

[davea0511]

... yes, I still love the feel of a good book in my hands, the smell of the paper, the sound of the pages flipping, etc...

Totally agree. Funny how one can get to enjoy the smell of a paperback.

Though I must admit, despit how wonderfull a "B.O.O.K." (see above) is, it is really cool to have dozens of books in a small PDA and read them at night with the light off without waking the wife.

[jgrnt1]

As for DRM, why don't they just assign a "license" to the individual, much like a driver's license, library card, social security number, etc. Every time the user makes a purchase, he is required to enter his individual user numer and the number is imbedded in the file. He also loads the number into his music player, book reader, etc. When the file license matches the player license, it functions.

Unless I am mistaken, DRM is currently akin to Sony trying to do everything in a proprietary fashion (Betamax, minidisc, memory stick, etc.). I assume each different DRM implementation generates license fees for the owner of the DRM technology. An open standard means no, or greatly reduced, fees. DRM protects authors' and publishers' rights, but proprietary DRM only generates money for the license holder.

I'm still concerned about the longetivity of my ebooks. I have my father's collection of science fiction paperbacks from the 50's, 60's and 70's. Even though some of the older books now have brittle pages, I can still read all of them and will be able to do so thirty years from now. I doubt I'll be able to read any of my ebooks then, unless we have a common standard.

[nategesner]

I failed to address the primary point of this thread, which is standardization. I currently carry MobiReader, iSilo, eReader, and MS Reader. I primarilly keep MS Reader because of the free dictionaries, to include English -> German and German -> English. I love being able to select a word and then automatically look it up in the dictionary! I like how Mobi can download newsfeeds. I like how I can turn documents, HTML, and other formats into an e-book to read anywhere at any time.

I see it like the telephone system. Any phone will make a call because the foundational technology is standard. If I want a basic phone, no problem. If I want one with Caller ID, an answering machine, and volume control, I can get that as well. E-books should be able to follow the same process. Standardize the text and let the software developers determine how I can use that text.

Can someone explain in laymen's terms why books can't be stored as raw data? If publishers put out raw data, developers could build converters to force it to work with their particular program and with their particular features. This way we all have a common starting point. I was under the impression something similar existed with the old hyper-text of the early '90s. Is this really too hard?

While I love e-books and all that they bring to the table, the greatest weakness is that the format is not standardized and across-the-board compatible. Having to utilize multiple converters and readers just to build a library is often frustrating and enough to make me give up and buy the paper version.

By the by, I'm noticing that more and more libraries are now allowing people to "check out" e-books on-line. They come with a license that automatically expires in about 21 days. I've read a few books this way and it's pretty handy. Beats driving 30 minutes each way to the library or paying $15 - $20 for an electronic book! Anyone else tried this yet?

[Steve Jordan]

If you are willing to read new authors and are looking for a GREAT way to read a lot of books whenever and wherever you want ereader is a huge advantage over paperbacks and hardcovers.

I wish more people were interested in reading new authors... ;)

I agree with all of the above sentiments, with one caveat: The e-books I get from Amazon are (from what I've experienced) in one format only, MS Reader. Don't know why, but I have problems with MS Reader turning off my PPC after about 10 minutes of reading... very annoying... so I appreciate the availability of formats that can be read on other readers, you pick the one you want.

I hope that with a universal format, there will be plenty of compatible readers to choose from, so you can choose which one performs best for you.

[Steve Jordan]

Can someone explain in laymen's terms why books can't be stored as raw data? If publishers put out raw data, developers could build converters to force it to work with their particular program and with their particular features. This way we all have a common starting point. I was under the impression something similar existed with the old hyper-text of the early '90s. Is this really too hard?

No, it's not. There's no reason publishers and readers couldn't use ASCII (for absolutely raw) or HTML text (for formatting) as e-book formats, and I understand the Sony reader can read HTML and PDF. They chose not to, in their attempt to create their own (hopefully) dominant format and TRY TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD! (Did that white mouse say something?) Same reason no one's standardized DRM.

[nategesner]

It's amazing how progress is consistently held back by pride or blatant greed. They could easily create a product that satisfies the customer and still make a big profit, but they want to hold out for the biggest profit possible at the expense of consumer happiness.

[davea0511]

Can someone explain in laymen's terms why books can't be stored as raw data? If publishers put out raw data, developers could build converters to force it to work with their particular program and with their particular features. This way we all have a common starting point. I was under the impression something similar existed with the old hyper-text of the early '90s. Is this really too hard?

No, it's not. There's no reason publishers and readers couldn't use ASCII (for absolutely raw) or HTML text (for formatting) as e-book formats, and I understand the Sony reader can read HTML and PDF. They chose not to, in their attempt to create their own (hopefully) dominant format and TRY TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD! (Did that white mouse say something?) Same reason no one's standardized DRM.

Yeah, DRM is mostly it. Raw makes bigger files too, at least it should (DRM probably interferes with the compression that could otherwise be available). Somewhere around 90% of most dialog comes from a small vocabulary of around 50 words on average, meaning that without DRM ebooks should be extremely compressible - but I believe that compressibility is sacrificed at the expense of integrated DRM (somebody correct me if I'm wrong here).

[davea0511]

Funny how libraries can freely check out regular books, but not ebooks. Could the DRM revolution be the start of the publisher's efforts to shut down public libraries? Me thinks so.

[nategesner]

Dude, go back about five posts and read my last paragraph. Then check out your local library. I move around a lot and the last three states I've lived in had on-line library catalogs that enable a cardholder to check out e-books without leaving your house. AND, this includes audio books in WMA format! This is all available because DRM is able to limit the amount of moving the file does and how long it lasts. After about three weeks, my DRM license expires and I can no longer use the file. Just delete and check it out again.

While not everything is available, it's a pretty healthy selection. I just checked my library system (Hawaii) and they have tens of thousands of books, thousands of audio books, and hundreds of music albums on-line for people to check out. Just check out your county or state library on-line and see what they offer.

[VanHlebar]

Dude, go back about five posts and read my last paragraph. Then check out your local library. I move around a lot and the last three states I've lived in had on-line library catalogs that enable a cardholder to check out e-books without leaving your house. AND, this includes audio books in WMA format! This is all available because DRM is able to limit the amount of moving the file does and how long it lasts. After about three weeks, my DRM license expires and I can no longer use the file. Just delete and check it out again.

While not everything is available, it's a pretty healthy selection. I just checked my library system (Hawaii) and they have tens of thousands of books, thousands of audio books, and hundreds of music albums on-line for people to check out. Just check out your county or state library on-line and see what they offer.

This would be a great idea, sadly, I just check both the Cincinnati Public Library and the Lane Public Library systems in my area and it doesn't look like either of them offer e-books to be checked out. Unless of course I am missing something, which is highly possible. :D

-Eric

[bechmann]

Eric, maybe you should check this out or take a closer look at Cincinnati Public Library and the Lane Public Library websites :) :
"The Ohio eBook Project is proud to announce the arrival of digital eBooks and Audio Books for your enjoyment. Patrons from member libraries can browse and search hundreds of great titles and download them to computers, transfer them to portable devices, or burn them onto CDs for reading and listening anywhere, anytime."

[VanHlebar]

Eric, maybe you should check this out or take a closer look at Cincinnati Public Library and the Lane Public Library websites :) :
"The Ohio eBook Project is proud to announce the arrival of digital eBooks and Audio Books for your enjoyment. Patrons from member libraries can browse and search hundreds of great titles and download them to computers, transfer them to portable devices, or burn them onto CDs for reading and listening anywhere, anytime."

Thanks for the help. It appears this is the only place to get them, as the public library's that I mentioned do not carry any ebooks at all. You can however use your public library card at the Ohio eBooks Project site to check out a variety of ebooks. Looks like they have a good selection, but the problem is that the ebooks are mostly only in audio format (OverDrive??) and if they are in the printed format they are only in pdf or mobireader, of which both stink in my opinion.

Great idea, but still sadly lacking. One more reason for a standard container to be a good thing, IF they ever get around to doing something serious about it that is.

-Eric

[juni]

Just a quick note: The latest MS Reader is VGA compatible - and it can be installed on a storage card. :)

[ChristopherTD]

Although the latest MS Reader is VGA aware, it doesn't actually display any more text than the QVGA version. Even at the smallest font setting.

Applying a brute force VGA tweak makes a tiny difference (you get a few more titles displayed in the library, and one extra line of text). I haven't tried it using something like TrueVGA or ozVGA because they break too many other things to be worth considering for me.

Whereas eReader lets you choose a variety of fonts and sizes to suit your preference. I end up with a setting that displays perhaps 50% more than QVGA which makes for a very satsifying display.

A couple more notches on the MS Reader font settings and it would be grand!

[sweb3028]

I personally use eReader. I have no problem paying similar prices for eBooks and paperback. For me, they are much more economical. I can store an entire library on my SD/CF cards. They are not taking up precious space in my house. My wife is not bothering me about keeping all of the books around that I have already read. Of course the biggest plus for me, it was much easier carrying my ebooks with me on my latest trip to the desert. It was also alot easier for me to buy them in the desert. There is definitely a practical application for them.

[Wasp]

The problem isn't with MS Reader, its with the ridiculous prices charged for the books. For science fiction readers, Baen Books gives a great deal on E-Books. You can buy any one book for $4 and there is no DRM involved. There is only the honor system. You can buy the monthly selection for $15 (6 books). My understanding is Baen is doing great with this policy. :D