The Frustrations of CDMA Devices

[Jason Dunn]

Talk about being caught between a rock and a hard place: CDMA devices offer great transfer rates with EVDO, and in North America at least, UMTS is almost nowhere to be seen. So if you want speed, you need an EVDO device. As a Windows Mobile geek, my frustration is that there's not a lot of choice when it comes to devices. Worse, CDMA devices (well, outside of Korea at least) don't have SIM cards that can easily move from one device to another. Why is that so frustrating for me? A few years ago, Samsung sent me an i700 for review. I was excited to review it, and had emailed the head of PR for Telus (our CDMA carrier here) in Alberta. She agreed to loan me an account with 1xRTT data so I could test the device. Great right? Not quite.<br /><br />It turns out that Telus, like many CDMA carriers in North America, will not activate devices that originate from outside their network. Telus is particularly strict about this, because the engineers refused to activate the phone even with the PR person trying to convince them. Can you believe that? So, ultimately I had to send it to Janak to review, and he <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/articles.php?action=expand,20748">dished out an amazingly thorough review</a>.<!><br /><br />Three years later, the situation repeated itself: Microsoft sent me a Palm Treo 700w to review. I was looking forward to it, long being envious of the hardware design of the Palm OS Treo. This time, I knew Telus wasn't going to activate it, so I didn't even bother trying. It was pre-activated on the Verizon network, the idea being I'd just be on voice/data roaming here in Canada. I happily unpacked the box, charged it up...and promptly couldn't get any data service. A bit of debugging here and there, several emails back and forth with my contacts at Microsoft, and they opted to send me another one. The second 700w had exactly the same problem. :( This time I got connected directly with Verizon support and they were unable to explain why it wouldn't roam. So I ended up sending the second 700w back, and once again, Janak ended up <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/articles.php?action=expand,47663">writing a huge review</a> on the phone that I couldn't review (though he didn't get the phone from me this time). You'd almost think this was nothing more than me wanting to get Janak to write reviews once every three years. :lol:<br /><br />So in the end, it always comes back to the same things: CDMA devices, no matter how cool, are significantly less flexible when it comes to being able to easily connect to any carrier. Mobile device geeks like me don't wait for a device to be offered by carriers, especially not Canadian carriers who tend to be six to twelve months behind their counterparts in the USA (it used to be much worse, believe me). The <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/index.php?action=expand,48473">Qualcomm announcement</a> is good news, but there's no indication of anything changing with regards to seeing SIM cards in CDMA phones. The CDMA carriers enjoy their lock-in power a little too much, and don't realize it's likely costing them more customers than it's keeping them.<br /><br />So I remain a GSM guy with a SIM card, always looking for the ultimate Windows Mobile device - and never being able to step into the realm of true wireless high-speed.

[Janak Parekh]

You'd almost think this was nothing more than me wanting to get Janak to write reviews once every three years. :lol:
What, that wasn't the case? 8O :lol:

The CDMA carriers enjoy their lock-in power a little too much, and don't realize it's likely costing them more customers than it's keeping them.
That's the thing: it's not costing them customers in any measurable number. Sure, the geek like you or me are going to prefer GSM. But that is something like 1% of the potential mobile-using population -- and some of that 1%, like me, sticks (suffers?) with Verizon anyway thanks to coverage and speed. Verizon is doing very well here in the US, and until that changes, they really have no incentive to change their practices.

The good news is that UMTS/HSDPA is on its way here in the US, so Cingular will pose some serious competition soon. As for Canada, well... no advice for you there. :(

Oh, and here's one other interesting point: for the average consumer, there is a slight advantage of lock-in -- the carrier is compelled to support them if the device doesn't work as expected. I know carrier support sucks sometimes, but it's important. Case in point: when I got my JasJar and activated it on T-Mobile, the phone module wouldn't reliably work. There was no way I was going to call T-Mobile support and try to explain to them what a JasJar is. Instead, after poking around and talking to people, I found out that the Universal/JasJar is picky with some SIMs, and I engineered an excuse with T-Mobile to get a new SIM, which did work perfectly. That may work for geeks like me, but 99% of the population doesn't want to deal with this. In fact, most GSM-toters rarely ever touch the SIM; it's put in by the cell phone salesperson and it sits there.

--janak

[bluetrane]

I hate all the wireless providers here in Canada. Even though Rogers is GSM it is such a ripoff. The data plans for all the major providers are a joke
(rogers and fido edge = 100mb/100$ , telus and bell evdo = 250mb/100$ )

don’t even get me started on prices for voice…..

what we need in Canada is some healthy competition in this sector and not this oligopoly that has been plaguing us for years

[Phoenix]

That's the thing: it's not costing them customers in any measurable number. Sure, the geek like you or me are going to prefer GSM. But that is something like 1% of the potential mobile-using population -- and some of that 1%, like me, sticks (suffers?) with Verizon anyway thanks to coverage and speed. Verizon is doing very well here in the US, and until that changes, they really have no incentive to change their practices.

Ain't that the truth. Or so it seems.

But that flexibility is exactly why I stick with GSM. I can buy what I want and swap phones whenever I choose.

[Janak Parekh]

what we need in Canada is some healthy competition in this sector and not this oligopoly that has been plaguing us for years
Canada is a tough place to be a profitable carrier, if you think about it. You've got a country comparable in size to the US (even if you only consider southern Canada, it's still absolutely massive), so you've got huge infrastructure costs, but the population density is far less. This means that it promotes such oligopolies, and they can even more so dictate the terms. :(

I'd imagine it's the same in Oz -- Darius, got any thoughts on this?

--janak

[bluetrane]

Fido and Clearnet were a perfect example of healthy competition in Canada. They offered many deals that shattered price points in this country.

However they were swallowed by rogers and telus respectivly. Ah i miss the good old days of unlimited GPRS and city fido :)

[Janak Parekh]

Fido and Clearnet were a perfect example of healthy competition in Canada. They offered many deals that shattered price points in this country.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they have limited coverage at best? I remember Jason talking about how Fido's coverage was minimal outside of cities proper, but he stuck with it because of the rates.

--janak

[Darius Wey]

I'd imagine it's the same in Oz -- Darius, got any thoughts on this?

Very similar, though definitely not priced as bad as $100 per hundred megabytes. For example, Vodafone offers 1GB for $100 (3G or GPRS). 3 (Three) offers 1GB for $129 (3G). Some carriers here offer unlimited data (fair use) for around $50, though not at 3G speeds.

Either way, I still find it all too expensive. While prices are coming down, it's happening way too slowly for my liking. In fact, I'm not even subscribed to a data plan at the moment because of the costs. :|

[manywhere]

Maybe it is time to start a "Thoughts GSM/3G Network®" operation in Canada as an MVNO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MVNO)? I just guess it takes a whole lotta money to get that running though. ;)

[nosmohtac]

I'm in agreement with most of the posts here. It is very frustrating that all of the best (IMHO) PPCPE devices are GSM, and I don't even have a GSM Provider in my area (except one that only sells a local plan and won't support data). I don't want to stray off topic with this statement, but it is the similar to the frustration I had a year ago with the new PPC offerings from HP. They had so many to choose from but none of them. even the most expensive, offered the best features of all of them in any one unit.

I would love to move over to a GSM device for several reasons stated in all of the earilier posts, but I stick with verizon, and use DUN w/BT with my Loox720, mainly because of the coverage. I wouldn't even mind the slower speeds on GSM, because I don't use it often enough to justify the high cost (IMO) of VZW data plans, and I'm already using slow data with DUN.

Everything as it is now, I would be elated if HTC and any Major CDMA carrier in the U.S. would offer a CDMA version of the Universal/JASJAR.
I wouldn't even mind using a Palm treo 700w if they would release one with at least 64MB of RAM.

[Paragon]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they have limited coverage at best? I remember Jason talking about how Fido's coverage was minimal outside of cities proper, but he stuck with it because of the rates.

--janak

Absolutely. Fido's coverage was terrible outside metro areas until Rogers took over and combined the networks.

Until recently I had a Fido plan with a $50.00 unlimited data plan that they had been living up to for a few years.

As for CDMA, lack of flexibility is really one of the few drawbacks. It can be a very big one if you want to switch devices a lot, which I used to do. I'm now using a 6700 on Telus and locked into a 3 year contract. For me it is something of a self imposed regulator which heps me with my addiction to the latest and greatest. (My name is Dave, and I have an addiction) ;) Since our GSM carriers seldom have any PHone Edition devices Telus and Bell are our only choice for carrier supplied devices. This means that my wizard that I paid about 1000 Canadian bucks for has been replaced by it's cousin the UT6700 for 150 bucks. Warranty with the Wizard which barely existed and required shipping the device around the world as well as dealing with very unhelpful or nonexistent support has now been replace by my Telus store down the street. so far I have found there support folks to be very helpful and the data dept. is actually knowledgeable.

All that said, if you can't live with a device for a year or more then CDMA may not work for you very well. You can sell CDMA devices and turn over your contract to the buyer but it is not an easy process since there are few people out there willing to take that deal. You can buy CDMA devices without a contract and pay a similar price as you would for an unlocked GSM device.

Dave

[bluetrane]

Fido and Clearnet were a perfect example of healthy competition in Canada. They offered many deals that shattered price points in this country.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they have limited coverage at best? I remember Jason talking about how Fido's coverage was minimal outside of cities proper, but he stuck with it because of the rates.

--janak

the coverage was fine. It covered major cities and roadways

[bluetrane]

Absolutely. Fido's coverage was terrible outside metro areas until Rogers took over and combined the networks.

Until recently I had a Fido plan with a $50.00 unlimited data plan that they had been living up to for a few years.

Dave

i think this proves my point. Even though you thought FIDO was a dog (pun intended) you still used their service because of combination of lack of choice and price.

[daS]

That's the thing: it's not costing them customers in any measurable number. Sure, the geek like you or me are going to prefer GSM. But that is something like 1% of the potential mobile-using population
You are right on the mark Janak, and from the carrier's perspective, we 1%'ers are net loses.

That's because they assume they will get support calls. The minimum cost to the carrier when you call customer service is around US$15 (perhaps more, because my data is a couple of years old.) A call that involves more than just telling the customer how to enter a phone number into speed dial is considerably more. Therefore, the carriers don't believe they make money on the ubergeeks.

On the other hand, most of us are the early adopters of their higher end services. They should understand that it's better - and cheaper! to work out the bugs with people who understand technology than with the average consumer.

My biggest gripe with Verizon is that, since they control the devices, they can "dumb them down" or lock out features. I currently use T-Mobile and Cingular (both GSM carriers.) I get poor coverage where I now live on T-Mobile (my company account) so I got the company to agree to allow me to switch to Verizon. However, I didn't do it because Verizon doesn't provide a phone that can be used as a wireless modem for my notebook (via Bluetooth.) I would have to get a PC Card as well as a phone. Because CDMA doesn't use a SIM, I would need two phone numbers at a much higher cost than what I'm currently paying. :roll:
[/i]

[whydidnt]

At this point, I've taken the expensive route to get what I want. My primary phone is the i730 on Verizon. I use it in business and rely heavily on the EvDO connection for email, and (shh!) tethering to my laptop when traveling.

I also have a JasJar, which is currently without a SIM. Use it for heavy data entry and occaisonal surfing via BT.

Finally I have a 2125 smartphone activated on Cingular. I carry that when I don't want to drag the i730 with me. I can switch the SIM to other GSM phones, but haven't since I received the 2125 as it seems to do everything phone very well. I forward calls on that phone to the i730 when I'm not using it. I have also found Cingular's data footprint - at least where I travel - to be much larger than Verizon's - so I sometimes need to use their EDGE network as I can't access data on Verizon's network.

The issue for me is that I end up paying for two voice and data plans. Fortunately, my company covers the cost of one of them. However, until Cingular rolls out more 3G coverage AND a good 3G WM phone to go with it, I'm not going to let $60.00/month get in the way of using these devices in a way that works best for me. I suspect that sometime next year, I'll ditch Verizon and their lock-in style practices - as Cingular will start to catch up with the data network.

[JD Silver]

The desire for the coverage offered by CDMA, and EVDO, versus the flexibilty of Sim cards has been a constant annoyance for me in the Great White North. I tried Rogers in Edmonton, but poor coverage brought me back to Telus. My PDA/Phone is my only phone, so a good network is paramount.

For the moment, I am very happy with the HTC Apache (aka UTStarcom 6700), but some of the recent offerings in GSM (like the new Mio) are sooo tempting. Sigh.

[disconnected]

I love the idea of SIM cards, but for now I'm sticking with CDMA for the speed. Right now, until May 21, Sprint is selling an unlimited phone-as-modem plan on EVDO phones for 39.99 per month. I've signed up for it (giving up my "unofficial free tethering" on 1xrtt), and they tell me the price will stay the same indefinitely, but of course you can't believe anything Sprint says, so I won't quite believe it until I've gotten several correct bills; in the past, whenever I've changed my plan, it's taken several months of wrong bills and long phone calls to get things straightened out.

It really, really annoys me that when you sign up for any given plan, you don't get any sort of receipt that tells you what you're actually getting. On their website, they only show the PAM options under the business plans, and they don't make a lot of sense --

-- Flexible PAM Data Plan -- 39.99 for 40 MB (additional usage capped at 69.99)

-- Unlimited PAM Data Plan -- 49.99 (separate voice plan required), but with a special offer of 39.99 --"sign up by May 21 to lock into this great price". It's a phone, not a card, so I don't know why you wouldn't have a voice plan anyway. And why would anyone pick the 40MB plan as long as the unlimited deal exists?

If it's really true, I'm pretty happy with the price......and I just bought a Slingbox.

[Janak Parekh]

However, I didn't do it because Verizon doesn't provide a phone that can be used as a wireless modem for my notebook (via Bluetooth.) I would have to get a PC Card as well as a phone. Because CDMA doesn't use a SIM, I would need two phone numbers at a much higher cost than what I'm currently paying. :roll:
Actually, Verizon does support USB tethering with a limited number of devices, for an additional $15/month (e.g., $44.95+$15=$59.95, the same price as a PC card plan). But it's not Bluetooth, and the list of phones doesn't include any WM devices... :( Verizon has been rumored to be adding the 700w to this list, but as of yet it hasn't happened. There are unofficial tools (e.g., PDANet), but I'm not ready to take that risk.

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

I'm now using a 6700 on Telus and locked into a 3 year contract.
BTW, I despise these increasingly-longer contracts. Here in the US, 2-year contracts are the norm, but I usually pay more to get the flexibility of a 1-year contract. 3 years to get a decent phone price is just insane. :evil:

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

i think this proves my point. Even though you thought FIDO was a dog (pun intended) you still used their service because of combination of lack of choice and price.
Of course. Smaller carriers have to offer incentive, and aggressive pricing is one of them. Of course, the Canadian carriers now know they don't need to offer this since they have no competition. :|

Strangely enough, while our mobile service has issues in nearly every other department, US service is probably amongst the most cheaply-priced; we've had unlimited GPRS/EDGE/1xRTT/EVDO and aggressive per-minute voice plans for years.

--janak

[Paragon]

I'm now using a 6700 on Telus and locked into a 3 year contract.
BTW, I despise these increasingly-longer contracts. Here in the US, 2-year contracts are the norm, but I usually pay more to get the flexibility of a 1-year contract. 3 years to get a decent phone price is just insane. :evil:

--janak

Nobody says you have to lock into a long term contract, right? :) For those who don't mind it is a great deal. Personally I have a wife and four kids, the oldest heading off to college shortly so there are lots of possibilities to pass it off to someone else. Plus I think outside of us hardcore users most people don't mind locking in. It is just another pain that is done and out of the way for awhile, plus they get a decent discount as well.

Dave

[whydidnt]

Strangely enough, while our mobile service has issues in nearly every other department, US service is probably amongst the most cheaply-priced; we've had unlimited GPRS/EDGE/1xRTT/EVDO and aggressive per-minute voice plans for years.

That's because large percentages of us in the USA seem to shop on price alone. It's one reason Wal-Mart has grown to be the largest retailer in the world. It's also a reason that we don't always get the latest technology first. Too many American's are too cheap to pay for the newest features. Our cell phone companies typically compete first on price, 2nd on features. Take TMobile out of the mix and I think the three major companies offer virtually the same price plans.

[inteller]

as someone who was with Sprint for 5 years I can say I got REALLY tired of waiting for those idiots to get decent phones....and their lack of support for the phones they did get was VERY disappointing. I know that when HSDPA comes out here in the state at the end of the year SPrint will hold ZERO advantages. Their voice plans already suck....their data plans suck ($40? give me a break).

I know that I'll be able to take a Hermes, pop in my 3G SIM, and go. I could never do that with sprint.

[eagle63]

as someone who was with Sprint for 5 years I can say I got REALLY tired of waiting for those idiots to get decent phones....and their lack of support for the phones they did get was VERY disappointing. I know that when HSDPA comes out here in the state at the end of the year SPrint will hold ZERO advantages. Their voice plans already suck....their data plans suck ($40? give me a break).

I know that I'll be able to take a Hermes, pop in my 3G SIM, and go. I could never do that with sprint.

$40 data plans?? You must be thinking of Verizon. Sprint's unlimited EVDO plan is $15/month, which is untouchable by any other carrier. It's the main reason I stay with Sprint. If the GSM carriers can offer competitive HSDPA plans (whenever they finally get around to rolling it out) I'd consider switching as I love the idea of a SIM card. Unfortunately, I don't forsee Cingular offering high speed data for anywhere close to $15/month. TMobile could, but I don't know if any of us will live long enough to see them roll HSDPA out. :)

[Janak Parekh]

That's because large percentages of us in the USA seem to shop on price alone. It's one reason Wal-Mart has grown to be the largest retailer in the world. It's also a reason that we don't always get the latest technology first.
While the former may be true, the latter isn't entirely true. Our rollout of EVDO is one of the earlier widescale 3G deployments in the world. And, thanks to unlimited pricing, 3G data here is far more useable than many other places, where is it utterly overpriced.

Take TMobile out of the mix and I think the three major companies offer virtually the same price plans.
Cingular is pretty aggressive about voice minutes, too.

--janak

[inteller]

as someone who was with Sprint for 5 years I can say I got REALLY tired of waiting for those idiots to get decent phones....and their lack of support for the phones they did get was VERY disappointing. I know that when HSDPA comes out here in the state at the end of the year SPrint will hold ZERO advantages. Their voice plans already suck....their data plans suck ($40? give me a break).

I know that I'll be able to take a Hermes, pop in my 3G SIM, and go. I could never do that with sprint.

$40 data plans?? You must be thinking of Verizon. Sprint's unlimited EVDO plan is $15/month, which is untouchable by any other carrier. It's the main reason I stay with Sprint. If the GSM carriers can offer competitive HSDPA plans (whenever they finally get around to rolling it out) I'd consider switching as I love the idea of a SIM card. Unfortunately, I don't forsee Cingular offering high speed data for anywhere close to $15/month. TMobile could, but I don't know if any of us will live long enough to see them roll HSDPA out. :)


It will be $20 a month, just like MEdiaNet has always been. GPRS customers never had to do anything different when EDGE came along, except buy an EDGE handset and pop in their SIM. From that perspective Cingular has the advantage because they dont have all the overhead of getting people into new phones. Just release the phones and people will figure it out for themselves.

[whydidnt]

While the former may be true, the latter isn't entirely true. Our rollout of EVDO is one of the earlier widescale 3G deployments in the world.

We are still far behind Japan, Korean and other Asian countries in the roll-out of this technology. There are logistics issues - size of area to cover, population denisty, etc - but a significant reason is US consumers and businesses don't want to pay for the additional functionality - many think it should just be included - All we need to do is read some of the quotes in this thread for validation of that. :D


Cingular is pretty aggressive about voice minutes, too.

Well, I pay the exact same amount for the exact same minutes to both Verizon and Cingular, but haven't looked at plans that include a lot more minutes, to see if that's true accross the board. I take it from your comments, it's probably not.

[Janak Parekh]

We are still far behind Japan, Korean and other Asian countries in the roll-out of this technology. There are logistics issues - size of area to cover, population denisty, etc - but a significant reason is US consumers and businesses don't want to pay for the additional functionality - many think it should just be included - All we need to do is read some of the quotes in this thread for validation of that. :D
Point taken, but we're still pretty competitive if you look at the entire world.

Well, I pay the exact same amount for the exact same minutes to both Verizon and Cingular, but haven't looked at plans that include a lot more minutes, to see if that's true accross the board. I take it from your comments, it's probably not.
Last I checked, Cingular offers more minutes at the same price point and has Rollover. Not that I need it; I use my 700w far more for data than voice now. 8O

--janak

[eagle63]

It will be $20 a month, just like MEdiaNet has always been. GPRS customers never had to do anything different when EDGE came along, except buy an EDGE handset and pop in their SIM. From that perspective Cingular has the advantage because they dont have all the overhead of getting people into new phones. Just release the phones and people will figure it out for themselves.

Hmmm, last time I walked into a Cingular store and inquired about the MediaNet plan they told me it's not for PDAPhones. For those, you need to have their $35/month plan. Last time I was checking out the GSM discussions at TreoCentral, it sounded like if you were REALLY lucky and were able to sweet talk a rookie Cingular rep into giving you the MediaNet plan for your Treo 650 you *might* get away with it. Umm, no thanks.

I'd be willing to wager some cash that Cingular won't be letting anyone have HSDPA for anything less than $30/month. I sure hope I'm wrong though....

[Cybrid]

... plus they get a decent discount as well.

DaveNope, not anymore. My first cellphone is now 7 years old. I puchased it for $399 (as opposed to $799 full purchase price) on a 1 year plan vs my 6700 for $399 ($549 regular) for a 3 year plan. I can see inflation taking a toll but a $400 discount per year being reduced to $50?

[Paragon]

... plus they get a decent discount as well.

DaveNope, not anymore. My first cellphone is now 7 years old. I puchased it for $399 (as opposed to $799 full purchase price) on a 1 year plan vs my 6700 for $399 ($549 regular) for a 3 year plan. I can see inflation taking a toll but a $400 discount per year being reduced to $50?

At Telus you now get it for $150 on 3 year. I still say that is a huge difference from the grand I paid for my GSM Wizard.

Dave

[Cybrid]

At Telus you now get it for $150 on 3 year. I still say that is a huge difference from the grand I paid for my GSM Wizard.

Dave($549-150)/3=133.33 a year.... Still not seeming to be a deal ;)

You've got a point on the 1G Wizard but that may be the price of having a taste for the rarer PPC's in life. :D