Engadget : Origami Is a Paper Tiger for Now

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.engadget.com/2006/03/15/switched-on-origami-is-a-paper-tiger-for-now/' target='_blank'>http://www.engadget.com/2006/03/15/...-tiger-for-now/</a><br /><br /></div><i>"Here we go again. In its unending capitalistic quest, Microsoft is determined to figure out how to sell people their nth computer. Today, its ideal consumer's computing inventory looks something like this -- a couple of desktops around the home, a notebook for those mobile jaunts, a Media Center PC for controlling the television experience serving up Windows Media files to an Xbox 360 or lesser Media Center Extenders, and at least a Windows Mobile Pocket PC or Smartphone device. But, wait. That could leave an unacceptable seven minutes and 34 seconds during waking hours when you don't have a Windows license at your wallet-handling fingertips. "</i><br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/2003/ekkie_engadget_origami_200603.jpg" /><br /><br />I know from the <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=47071">recent poll</a> that Janak conducted a few weeks back, a large percentage of you (~30%) are not very excited by the prospects of Origami (a.k.a. UMPC). Well, you can add Engadget guest columnist Ross Rubin to that list as he goes on to expound on the non-existing market for Origami, though he does leave the door slightly ajar for the future if the price is right. Overall, his main gripe is in the lack of value of a device that is too big to be pocketable, but yet is geared towards mobility. Give it a read and let us know if he's captured the essence of Origami or if he's just missing the point.

[JimV]

You would think with a name like Origami it woud do something really cool like fold up. Then it would be pocketable and everyone would want one. Just think a big foldable screen...

[Tierran]

I think a lot of people are missing the point. Just 3 years ago, I was willing to lay down $600 for a Pocket PC device that does a fraction of what this can do at the same price. It is bigger, yes. But honestly, I stopped trying to do a lot of the things I wanted to do on my Pocket PC due to the fact it simply doesn't do them well.

1) Any MS Office function
2) Web browsing
3) Can't use any of my PC software
4) Mediocre video playback at best

If I need these more powerful features, I'm more than happy to have it all in a bag with me. I don't want to carry around a heavy laptop though and when I'm on a plane, I hate having a laptop with me but my PDA just doesn't do what I'd like it to.

I'd much rather have something like the Origami or a small tablet &amp; a pda/smartphone for basic PIM. That's what I originally had a PDA for and that's what I want mine for.

[christak]

If this comes in at $500-$700, I'll be very interested in/likely to get one... We have an OQO at the office and I really like that device, but the OQO costs too much for me to buy one for myself...

8)

[ctitanic]

Well, as you can see, origamis have a market. Read the above posts.

[Perry Reed]

Of course I'm a big Pocket PC fan. But then I'm also a big Tablet PC fan (and as the host of The Tablet PC Show podcast (http://tabletpc.thepodcastnetwork.com), I ought to be...

One of the glaring weaknesses in the Pocket PCs, in my opinion, has always been the lightweight Office applications, especially the Inbox. The UMPCs (aka Origami devices) solve that because you get the full-blown Office applications running on a very small device.

No, it's not as portable as most of the Pocket PCs out there, although they're not a whole lot bigger than the beefier Mobile devices available. None of them would fit in my pants pocket. However, they would go almost anywhere with me, perhaps in a small bag or carrying case, or for those who carry one, a purse.

Add to that a Smartphone or small phone-enabled Pocket PC, like a Treo, pair them up with Bluetooth and use the phone's high-speed data access to give the UMPC data-anywhere capability, and you've got a pretty powerful combination.

So, I don't see the UMPCs killing off the Smartphone or small phone-enabled PDAs at all, but I do see them giving the larger, more expensive Pocket PCs a run for the money. Perhaps not immediately as the initial price of the UMPCs looks to be about $1000, but Microsoft and Intel are both working to bring down those prices to somewhere close to $500 and at that price, they are definitely a PDA-killer.

[ctitanic]

I don't think that they are definitely a PDA-killer but they will cut the price of current PPCs a lot. There are moments where you need a small device to take some notes, to help you with contacts addresses or emails that you can't remember or just as an alarm clock. For those times the PPC will be the perfect device. The UMPC will take care of those moments when you need a PC but you don't want to carry a 7 pound laptop or Tablet PC. The UMPC is going to be the perfect companion for vacations. But OEMs have to keep the price in the range of $600 to $900. That what the market is ready to pay for.

[Kevin Daly]

I think pocketablility as a criterion has been over-stressed.
When it comes to truly pocketable devices, you won't get far beyond smartphones, but anything small enough to fit in your pocket will be constrained by the laws of physics, geometry and so on to have a display too small for many purposes.

If we look at the market for powerful yet portable devices, the UMPC is lined up against competitors which are either horrendously expensive (including all those gorgeous paper-thin notebooks from newly-evil Sony) or at-least-a-bit-more-expensive+considerably-more-bulky.

And I swear, if anyone mentions iPods again I will reach out of their monitor and slap them.

[zetsurin]

Well, as you can see, origamis have a market. Read the above posts.

And more than likely those few posts will constitute it's _entire_ market.

[ctitanic]

And I swear, if anyone mentions iPods again I will
reach out of their monitor and slap them.

well, it's MS's fault that many think about Origamis like iPod killers:

http://ultramobilepc-tips.blogspot.com/2006/03/origami-blog-updated.html

[ctitanic]

Well, as you can see, origamis have a market. Read the above posts.

And more than likely those few posts will constitute it's _entire_ market.

I don't think so. Like somebody said, many with PPC wants something more powerful than a PPC but less bulky than a Laptop. And of course, they don't want to pay for a companion PC more than 1000 dollars.

Check OrigamiProject forum and you will see that many people are interested in this concept.

[Tierran]

Well, as you can see, origamis have a market. Read the above posts.

And more than likely those few posts will constitute it's _entire_ market.

I doubt it...3-4 years ago the PDA market was exploding. People were excited about what it offered. Then it died. Why? Mainly because the Pocket PC didn't really offer what people thought it did.

[ctitanic]

No counting unhappy gamers that don't like PSPs. ;)

[Damion Chaplin]

Internet browsing on a PPC (even a VGA one) is terrible. I could see carrying something like this for the always-connected hi-speed internet access (when paired with the PPCPE). I just can't see paying over $500 for that functionality. That's about the only thing I would use this for that my PPC doesn't already do (and that I couldn't wait to get back to my desktop to do).

[ctitanic]

Internet browsing on a PPC (even a VGA one) is terrible. I could see carrying something like this for the always-connected hi-speed internet access (when paired with the PPCPE). I just can't see paying over $500 for that functionality. That's about the only thing I would use this for that my PPC doesn't already do (and that I couldn't wait to get back to my desktop to do).
that's true, but there are a lot of people that needs no just browsing, they need to write notes, review examens, write notes about documents, add notes to documents, show power point presentations, compile a patch for a program where a few lines of code needed to be changed, etc.

[ctitanic]

Here is an example:

http://origamiproject.com/forums/thread/2501.aspx

that's what teachers want.

And this other thread is about what students want and like from this concept:

http://origamiproject.com/forums/thread/2365.aspx

and there are a lot of people asking about games:

http://origamiproject.com/forums/thread/1453.aspx
http://origamiproject.com/forums/thread/2257.aspx

[Mark Johnson]

Every time I get into my car I'm carrying my 4-pound TabletPC, PPC, Nano, and cell phone. I've completely given up on waiting for the PPC to "grow up" to the point where I can properly "round-trip" and/or synronize my data, and (more importantly) run equivalent apps for all the XP ones I need (mobile QuickBooks, etc.) I'm completely "locked in" to carrying my 4 pound TabletPC because I need "real" application access on the road.

At the same time, trying to "one hand" the TabletPC is absurd. It is just too large to use for contacts/task management, etc. (Which is why it is always in the back seat and my PPC is on my passenger seat.)

The Origami is a far better solution. It will work as well as a PPC for contacts/tasks and still be small enough for "one-handed" use. It will run QuickBooks, etc. Both my PPC and TPC will be replaced with the Origami.

My hope is that if MS finally gets a decent "one-handed navigation" interface for WMP on the Origami, I'll just dock it in my car and be able to dump the Nano as well.

I'm not as sure how excited I am to use it as a cell phone. Mostly depends on price and the quality of the "hands-free" bluetooth headset dialing options. If I actually have to pick up the Origami to make/recieve a call, forget it. If the software is good enough to let me "voice command" it from a bluetooth headset, then I'm in! (Of course, that MUST include the ability to voice dial ANY number by speaking the numbers. I'm amazed and how almost all cell phones ONLY offer the ability to voice dial pre-programmed names like "call mom" or "call office" but never let you say "dial five five five one two one two." If the Origami lets me do this by clicking a button on a bluetooth headset, I'm in for that too! Then all four of my current "gotta have it on me before I get in the car" items go down to just one! The weight reduction is probably from like 6 pounds to 2.

I'm sure there will be plenty of "in-car" docks that will let you put the music player audio into your car stereo AND charge the unit on the road, so battery life will be a non-issue. You dock it at home at night and it charges, you get into your car to drive to work and it charges, you get to your office desk and dock it and it charges, you get into your car for a client meeting and dock it and it charges, etc. For a lot of people like me, 3 or 4 hour battery life IS "all day battery life."

[ctitanic]

wow! zetsurin, now you can see how wrong you are?

[ctitanic]

Pocket Streets compared to this screen shot in 1:1 scale of Streets and Maps is just a joke.

http://origamiproject.com/blogs/images/STFullScreen.JPG

[ctitanic]

More teachers interested in Origamis:

http://www.origamiportal.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=44

[Tierran]

No counting unhappy gamers that don't like PSPs. ;)

World of Warcraft + Origami = I heart MS

[ctitanic]

No counting unhappy gamers that don't like PSPs. ;)

World of Warcraft + Origami = I heart MS

I have not heard anything about it yet but if you want to see a bunch of teenagers making plans about how to play quake and other games in these devices just click here:

http://www.origamiportal.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=36&amp;forum=1&amp;post_id=610#forumpost610

[Perry Reed]

Pocket Streets compared to this screen shot in 1:1 scale of Streets and Maps is just a joke.


I don't know that it's all that useful to compare Windows XP to Windows Mobile. We all know that XP is more powerful.

The real question is, which device is better suited to doing the tasks that people need to do in a small enough form-factor that they're willing to carry the device.

Obviously the Windows Mobile devices are going to scale much smaller than any Windows XP device, including the OQO or the UMPCs. But those devices do offer the power of Windows XP in a device much smaller than anything we've seen previously.

So, are folks going to want to carry the slightly larger device in order to get the power of XP, or will the better portability of Windows Mobile induce folks to carry the smaller devices that will do the tasks "good enough" for their needs.

I expect that everyone will have a slightly different answer and the debate will go on. However, my personal opinion is that people who would otherwise have gone for a larger, more powerful Windows Mobile device will instead opt for the UMPCs, while those who want the increased portability will go with a Smartphone or a smaller Pocket PC Phone Edition device. I think the combination of the phone and UMPC will be the most powerful solution for a lot of people.

[CTSLICK]

A random thought...

My current daily gadget haul to work:
Dumb-phone w/ bluetooth
Non-connected PDA with bluetooth
My personal laptop
iPod

In the future?
Smartphone
Origami
iPod (maybe?)

Other random thoughts
Origami as an all-in-one media control device?

[Tierran]

A random thought...

My current daily gadget haul to work:
Dumb-phone w/ bluetooth
Non-connected PDA with bluetooth
My personal laptop
iPod

In the future?
Smartphone
Origami
iPod (maybe?)

Other random thoughts
Origami as an all-in-one media control device?

Swap iPod with my iRiver DAP and you have what my plans are ;)

[Jason Lee]

No counting unhappy gamers that don't like PSPs. ;)

World of Warcraft + Origami = I heart MS

I was sooo thinking the exact same thing! LOL
WoW on my tablet is nice but if i can get one of these things for $600? I'd buy one just for fun. :) Especially if it will run WoW. ;)

I'v been disapointed in how underpowerd pocket pcs have become. I love my k-jam but it is just not quite as fast as my sx66 was. I've lost my CF slot (years ago) and now my SD slot... There have been may times i was soo close to buying a dell x51v just as a second ppc for work or media. or just to test software and play games on. But it seemed kinda redundant having 2 pocket pcs. But one of these might possible fill that need. IF they are cheep enough and can play WoW. hahahaha.

[ketchup]

I work as an IT Manager for a restaurant company. We have a lot of field people that carry Blackberry devices with them everywhere. They also have notebook computers but, because they are too heavy or bulky (in their opinions) they leave them at home and do all of their "paperwork" when they get home.

With a UMPC, they can take it with them and do the work they need to do and have connectivity using the "modem" feature the Blackberry devices give them. Price and usability still need to be figured out.

We are also looking at the Fujitsu UPPC (P1510). It seems to be only about 1/4"-1/2" larger overall than the UMPC devices, but is a convertable Tablet PC. This would give them a true keyboard. (The price is not cheap, though)

We'll have to really wait and see at what price-point the UMPC devices are released at and if larger batteries will be available right off.

[dochall]

I can't find where I originally said this but this is (may be) pretty much what I want. In fact I suspect that Bill and Steve are videoing my every movement.

I had a pocket pc when they were still called palm size pc's.
I was excited about the Tablet PC and have had one since launch and tablet pc functionality is number one on my list of requirements.

I am sick carting a full size laptop around though and the pocket pc does not fulfill all my needs. I want something that be good enough from my home office (where I have a choice of desktop machines) to my office desk (where I have a laptop) and then taking notes in meetings.

So instead of carrying around a ppc, phone, ipod and laptop I plan to replace it with a smartphone, subnotebook and ipod. The oqo is too small screen wise so I've been looking at the LS800 or the fujistu 1510p. That purchase is on hold until we start to see some UMPC reviews. My only problem is that 7" may be too small. I don't want something that I can get into a pocket. I want something that is useable and light.

Yes I will have to carry it an bag. Guess what - I carry an ordinary laptop rucksack around with me virtually all the time during the working week. I don't mind carrying it a bag I just a smaller lighter bag. If I'm off down to the disco I don't carry my ppc or my laptop. Funnily enough they've never been a particular priority when out socialising.

I also want something of a size I can happily carry with me to meetings reasonably; a bit like when I used to carry a filoxfax (remember them). A 12.1" tablet pc is just too big - though I do it at the moment.

I would love to see something with HSPDA/UMTS capability built in ideally but I suspect that I will still end buying a first generation device and trading it in when connected devices become available. It's pretty close to the ideal form factor for my needs and I suspect quite a few other people in the 'knowledge worker' world.

[whydidnt]

I still say these are too big to be that ultimate device. The OQO has the size right, and provides many of the same advantages. The screen on the OQO is also a very usuable resolution for most of what I use it for as well. I also wonder what kind of prices we are going to see on these devices. As mentioned earlier, we already have tablets and notebooks that are just over 2 pounds and quite small, but manufacturers have historically priced these at $1500+, how will they be able to provide basically the same thing, in Origami at a hugely lower price?

I feel that if I have to carry the device in a bag, then it might as well be 3 pounds and have a full size keyboard since I've got to drag the bag around anyway, might as well make the device inside it very usuable. The more I think about this, the more I want my OQO to dual boot with WM for PIM functions, like the DualCore is supposed to do. The fact that these devices still won't have true instant on access to stuff will be an issue. Too bad the DualCore is roughly the same size as the Oragmi devices.

[Silver5]

Could someone explain the difference between these seemingly pointless devices and Tablet PC?

It would appear to me that they could just have made smaller tablet PCs instead of going in a new direction. Pocket PC phones are perfectly pocketable now and though they are limited in comparison to a full notebook or tablet they definitely allow me to do anything that I should reasonably expect to be able to do with something that fits in my pocket comfortably.

I want to see them do something really innovative with the laptop/notebook/tablet instead of developing something new. My laptop would really please me if it were a touchscreen (like a tablet) that didn't require a special stylus. I would like to be able to tap two items on the screen and drag them both to wherever I want them to be, at the same time. I want to be able to tell my computer what to do using my voice, instead of a mouse. I want very high resolution screens (my laptop is 1920x1200 on a 15.4" screen). I would like to see boot times almost dissappear. I want the adapters to be smaller! Why should the adapter be bigger than two laptop batteries?!! I have more things that I'd love to see happen that are not really far-fetched, nor limited to super-geeks who know all kinds of weird codes or ridiculously complicated computer "stuff." These things would really make using the computer easier, allow me to do more with it, and reduce the time it takes me to complete a task.

[birick]

I'm in, I just hope I can make myself wait a year for the 2nd generation devices. It will be difficult for me to not buy the first one on the market. I have been wanting a device like this for a long time. Goodbye PPC...stay home notebook...This is all I need for my work / travel.

[ctitanic]

Could someone explain the difference between these seemingly pointless devices and Tablet PC?
weight, size and price and in some cases a passive display that allows you to use your hands.

[ADBrown]

The Origami is a far better solution. It will work as well as a PPC for contacts/tasks and still be small enough for "one-handed" use. It will run QuickBooks, etc. Both my PPC and TPC will be replaced with the Origami.

You do realize that you're talking about something 4-6 times the physical size of an average Pocket PC, right? Much closer to the tablet form-factor than anything else. And it's not going to be instant-on like a PPC.

Frankly, I suspect that most people who are looking forward to these are going to have their hopes dashed. It's the fault of MS/Intel, really--they built a picture with the hype that bears little to no resemblence to the devices which they actually have coming out within the next year or two. The hype talks about small elegant devices selling for $600, and what's going to arrive is large and slow devices selling for no less than $1000, and most closer to $1500.

[ctitanic]

You do realize that you're talking about something 4-6 times the physical size of an average Pocket PC, right? Much closer to the tablet form-factor than anything else. And it's not going to be instant-on like a PPC.
from where you are getting these numbers????
an origami is around 1.5 the size of a Pocket PC! or less!
In another hand, to have a usable origami after turn it on takes just a few seconds. Origamis comes with two turn on/off mode, in one of them basically you are sending the origami into a standby mode. That's the mode the most of the time was used by the Origami Team in their daily use tests.

[Phoenix]

I think there will definitely be a market for Origami, but I think the majority of it will be made up of vertical markets - businesses who currently use Tablet PC's and educational venues.

There will be individual consumers who will buy it, but these people are going to make up a very small percentage of the overall sales, IMO. Who knows, maybe Origami will be a real hit with individuals, but I don't particularly think so... at least not at this point.

It's true that for Origami to make any kind of a dent, it's going to have to come way down in price - I'd say between $500 and $700 for everything.

It's also going to need WWAN, WLAN, and WPAN to be successful. All three... Cellular (both CDMA and GSM versions and 3G/3.5G/3.75G data), Wifi, and BT.

It's also going to need astounding battery life, or forget it.

...And let's not fail to mention, slim dimensions as well.

But even with all this, it's not going to replace Windows Mobile devices. For some it will, but I don't believe it ever will for most. Perhaps it'll be more popular for people to carry both a WM device and Origami, as some here have suggested.

Part of understanding this requires understanding how WM devices are evolving. Devices running this operating system are quickly going the route of convergence - Pocket PC's with cellular attributes. Soon, all Pocket PC type devices will have cell phone functionality and no one is going to use an Origami device as their cell phone. It might be nice to have this ability in the Origami (I certainly would never shun the idea of voice capability in addition to data), but the device is simply too big and/or bulky to use for that purpose on a regular basis, even with a BT earpiece.

Not to mention, even if full-fledge Windows XP or Vista could be brought to a device the size of a Pocket PC, no one would want the complications that that OS would bring when merely wanting to make calls, manage some contacts, messages, and emails, play a few games, indulge in a bit of entertainment (videos or music), or reference other info.

In other words, most everything that people need or want to do over and above a basic cell phone can be accomplished with Windows Mobile.

The Origami is too big and heavy to be pocketable and to be used as a primary cell phone, and it's screen is too small to replace a notebook computer. It also comes with no integrated optical drive or keyboard (and yes, I understand that's the point, but these features will be needed to effectively replace a portable notebook computer, and who wants to lug these external components around?) So as cool as the device seems to be, it's going to be a very tough sell to the average consumer.

Windows XP or Vista on a portable device will answer the specific requirements of certain vertical markets and a sparce handful of individuals, but it's not the answer to everything. Origami is not going to kill the iPod. It's not going to kill the PSP. It's not going to kill Windows Mobile.

Origami is slick in some respects, but some would say that it's a solution looking for a problem.

[Craig Horlacher]

My first thought was that it looked like a cool idea. After I thought about it for awhile, I realized it can't replace my pocket pc - due to size and probably battery life. Also, I can't see it replacing my PSP since it just would be too big and heavy to carry around for mobile gaming and the button layout doesn't look very good for that.

I can see this taking over in areas where people are using small laptops (like the toshiba libretto or those really small sony ones) or replacing tablet pc's.

I saw references to this being an ipod killer. It's physical attributes would allow it to inflict more damage then, for instance, a pocet pc, if one was to use the device as a hammer. Other than that, I think apple can sleep easily.

[ADBrown]

You do realize that you're talking about something 4-6 times the physical size of an average Pocket PC, right? Much closer to the tablet form-factor than anything else. And it's not going to be instant-on like a PPC.
from where you are getting these numbers????
an origami is around 1.5 the size of a Pocket PC! or less!


The current models are about eight to ten inches long and six wide. That's roughly four times the footprint of most PPCs. Add any more thickness over the roughly 0.6 inches of PPCs, and you're probably talking six times the size of a PPC. Check out the specs, rather than the promotional materials. Check out this photo for a sense of perspective, and remember that that's a 7 inch screen.

http://news.com.com/2300-1044_3-6046778-1.html?part=rss&amp;tag=6046778&amp;subj=news

Like I said, people have gotten a false impression from the hype.

[ctitanic]

Also, I can't see it replacing my PSP since it just would be too big and heavy to carry around for mobile gaming and the button layout doesn't look very good for that.

Have you thought that being a PC this device will have or could have a 1000 of games while a PSP just have less than 50?

Have you thought about all the multimedia possibilities that these devices have because they are PCs and the PSPs do not have due to the Sony restrictions?

I know a lot of PSP users willing to dish their PSP just because of these new origamis ;)

[Tierran]

The biggest misconception is that people who are against this device thing its a PDA replacement. PIM remains the realm of the PDA. The Origami takes back all of the things that a full computer is better at.

[ctitanic]

You do realize that you're talking about something 4-6 times the physical size of an average Pocket PC, right? Much closer to the tablet form-factor than anything else. And it's not going to be instant-on like a PPC.
from where you are getting these numbers????
an origami is around 1.5 the size of a Pocket PC! or less!


The current models are about eight to ten inches long and six wide. That's roughly four times the footprint of most PPCs. Add any more thickness over the roughly 0.6 inches of PPCs, and you're probably talking six times the size of a PPC. Check out the specs, rather than the promotional materials. Check out this photo for a sense of perspective, and remember that that's a 7 inch screen.

http://news.com.com/2300-1044_3-6046778-1.html?part=rss&amp;tag=6046778&amp;subj=news

Like I said, people have gotten a false impression from the hype.

Please, calculate the area of both devices and devide one by the other. There is no way that one is bigger than the other 4 times.

[ctitanic]

The biggest misconception is that people who are against this device thing its a PDA replacement. PIM remains the realm of the PDA. The Origami takes back all of the things that a full computer is better at.

Well said!

[Phoenix]

...The Origami takes back all of the things that a full computer is better at.

I can't say I agree with that 100%. Yes, it's true that any computer can do more than any device out there, but that statement would suggest that a full-fledge computer is the preferred device for doing anything other than PIM. Windows Mobile is good for more than just PIM, and the preferred device for doing many other things in addition, for many people.

Sometimes, a simpler OS is what's best.

[ADBrown]

Please, calculate the area of both devices and devide one by the other. There is no way that one is bigger than the other 4 times.

You're right. I've done the math. It's six point one times larger. My Axim X51v is 4.7" x 2.9" x 0.6". The Samsung Q1 (the smallest new UMPC) is 9" x 5.5" x 1.0". That makes 8.1 cubic inches for the Axim, compared to 49 cubic inches for the Q1. That makes the Q1 6.1 times the size of the Axim.

[Craig Horlacher]

Also, I can't see it replacing my PSP since it just would be too big and heavy to carry around for mobile gaming and the button layout doesn't look very good for that.

Have you thought that being a PC this device will have or could have a 1000 of games while a PSP just have less than 50?

Have you thought about all the multimedia possibilities that these devices have because they are PCs and the PSPs do not have due to the Sony restrictions?

I know a lot of PSP users willing to dish their PSP just because of these new origamis ;)

I did think about the game library...problem is most pc games have heavy requirements that I doubt an origami will come close to meeting. The psp does have over 100 games now and over 350 movies on umd. The games coming out in the last number of month have improved dramatically over some older games. Still, a bad psp game is usually pretty good as far as mobile gaming goes. I actually have one freind who had sold his psp around 6 months ago because he didn't like the games and just bought another because they've gotten so much better. They're improving graphics and load times in ways I didn't think would be possible.

I think a graphics subsystem in an origami with enough power to run current games would kill the battery.

You should really check into the current game selection for psp. There is a very good selection now and the games coming out seem to be improving in quality greatly. I still love some of the older games like ridge racer and wipeout. The graphics and framerate of thoes games are amazing.

[ctitanic]

Please, calculate the area of both devices and devide one by the other. There is no way that one is bigger than the other 4 times.

You're right. I've done the math. It's six point one times larger. My Axim X51v is 4.7" x 2.9" x 0.6". The Samsung Q1 (the smallest new UMPC) is 9" x 5.5" x 1.0". That makes 8.1 cubic inches for the Axim, compared to 49 cubic inches for the Q1. That makes the Q1 6.1 times the size of the Axim.

less than 6 times! Could you compare it with a hx4700?

but... I'm not talking about to replace a ppc with one of these origamis. I'm talking about the convinience of having one of these as a companion PC.

[ADBrown]

less than 6 times!

Huh? 6.1 is more than 6.

Could you compare it with a hx4700?

5.33 times larger than the iPaq hx4700.

but... I'm not talking about to replace a ppc with one of these origamis. I'm talking about the convinience of having one of these as a companion PC.

But they're large enough, and expensive enough, that they show little benefit over a more conventional tablet PC or sub-notebook. I mean, you can get a IBM Thinkpad X40 convertible notebook/tablet for less than an Origami, and the Thinkpad has better specs. That's why I think that the market is limited at best. They're not better than notebooks, they're not better than PPCs, and they don't do any one thing particuarly well. They're a solution in search of a problem.

[Tierran]

...The Origami takes back all of the things that a full computer is better at.

I can't say I agree with that 100%. Yes, it's true that any computer can do more than any device out there, but that statement would suggest that a full-fledge computer is the preferred device for doing anything other than PIM. Windows Mobile is good for more than just PIM, and the preferred device for doing many other things in addition, for many people.

Sometimes, a simpler OS is what's best.

No, it would suggest exactly what it says. The Origami allows me to do things on a small, highly portable device that the Pocket PC has never been well suited to doing.

What small portable device at the pricepoint of an Origami exists now that would allow people to do things they do on a PDA that could be done better on a more powerful device? Maybe people do things on Windows Mobile not because they want to but because its currently the best option.

[ctitanic]

But they're large enough, and expensive enough, that they show little benefit over a more conventional tablet PC or sub-notebook. I mean, you can get a IBM Thinkpad X40 convertible notebook/tablet for less than an Origami, and the Thinkpad has better specs. That's why I think that the market is limited at best. They're not better than notebooks, they're not better than PPCs, and they don't do any one thing particuarly well. They're a solution in search of a problem.

I disagree. This first generation is going to be a little bit expensive but even at 1000 dollars you wont find any tablet pc with this size.

[Tierran]

But they're large enough, and expensive enough, that they show little benefit over a more conventional tablet PC or sub-notebook.

$600 vs $1200

2lbs vs 6lbs

There you go

[ADBrown]

But they're large enough, and expensive enough, that they show little benefit over a more conventional tablet PC or sub-notebook.

$600 vs $1200

2lbs vs 6lbs

There you go

Again, hype versus reality. Even Intel and MS admit that there won't be any devices under $1000 for at least a year, period, no exceptions. The Samsung device is priced at $1500, and the other models are expected to be likewise, if they're available at all. $600 is a hype number of what MS and Intel claim these devices might sell for some time in 2007 or 2008. Compare that to the fact that the cheapest available tablet PC right now is around $800 and 3.5 pounds. The Thinkpad X40 I mentioned is just 2.7 pounds, and starts at $930.

[ctitanic]

But they're large enough, and expensive enough, that they show little benefit over a more conventional tablet PC or sub-notebook.

$600 vs $1200

2lbs vs 6lbs

There you go

Again, hype versus reality. Even Intel and MS admit that there won't be any devices under $1000 for at least a year, period, no exceptions. The Samsung device is priced at $1500, and the other models are expected to be likewise, if they're available at all. $600 is a hype number of what MS and Intel claim these devices might sell for some time in 2007 or 2008. Compare that to the fact that the cheapest available tablet PC right now is around $800 and 3.5 pounds. The Thinkpad X40 I mentioned is just 2.7 pounds, and starts at $1000.

http://www.alltp.com/store/detail.aspx?ID=129

and

I'm not looking for a laptop. I have one. I'm looking for a Tablet PC. Could you find me one for less than 1100 dollars and with a screen size less than 10"?

[ctitanic]

More about prices, taken from MS site

How much will UMPCs cost?
Pricing is determined by the manufacturers, but we are anticipating UMPCs to fall initially in the $600 to $1200 range, depending on features. As more units are sold, prices should come down. We believe that through careful choice of components, it is possible to sell UMPCs for $500.


http://origamiproject.com/faqs/opfaq.aspx

[Stephen Beesley]

I want something that be good enough from my home office (where I have a choice of desktop machines) to my office desk (where I have a laptop) and then taking notes in meetings.

This pretty much exactly sums up what I am after in my primary mobile device. Since my first Newton and attachable keyboard I have been looking for something I can set up pretty much anywhere and be able to do most of what I would do at my desktop. Currently, my Axim x50v with BT keyboard and Mouse is as close as I have ever been, but it is still not quite there.

Yes I will have to carry it an bag. Guess what - I carry an ordinary laptop rucksack around with me virtually all the time during the working week. I don't mind carrying it a bag I just a smaller lighter bag.

Again, this is a "me too". I can see myself with this in my bag and a smaller PPC phone device in my pocket for those times I do not want to carry a bag.

IMHO - like many other posters I think that the price point of these devices is going to be the determining factor in their success. If it at or not too far above the high end PPC price then I can see a market, but if they come in at around US$1500 or so (which I guess they will :cry: ) then I cannot see them being a success despite the potential.

I just hope I am wrong about prices...

[ctitanic]

This

http://www.alltp.com/store/SearchResult.aspx?CategoryID=23

this is the close Tablet PC to what I'm looking for. Price: 1600 dollars.

[ADBrown]

http://www.alltp.com/store/detail.aspx?ID=129


I seriously doubt the reliability of this store, given a few things:

Their cart mechanism doesn't actually work.

They're asking you to put down money for a product that hasn't been built yet.

And the pricing for the device that they're selling hasn't been announced yet.

Again, Intel themselves have said these aren't going to be selling for under $1000 this year. If you don't believe me, look it up. The fact that Microsoft is still pushing hype over reality doesn't negate reality.

I'm not looking for a laptop. I have one. I'm looking for a Tablet PC. Could you find me one for less than 1100 dollars and with a screen size less than 10"?

Well, pushing right past the fact that the X40 is a convertible... You're demanding a lot, but it's possible. I'd advise you look for one of the Sony Vaio U series or an OQO. You should be able to find a U50 or U8G for in that price range. They're semi-rare, so eBay is your friend. They have a 5" screen, with real SVGA resolution and touchscreen, rather than the strange 800 x 480 "wide VGA." Getting an OQO under $1100 is a matter of persistance and timing. Stay on top of eBay, they do sometimes go for as little as $1000.

If you could accept a 10" screen, your options would open up considerably, as there are several inexpensive models at this size. But to me, what it sounds like you really want is something like a PPC running XP. I'm sorry, but that's just not practical at the moment. You can't pack enough storage, enough processor speed, and enough battery power into a small enough case, and the devices that try (like the OQO) usually end up doing everything, and nothing well. I've had an OQO, and a Vaio too. They're large, they run hot, they have extremely short battery life, and they're just not very practical.

[ctitanic]

that store is well known within the Tablet PC community. I have exchanged some emails with the owner. If you have any doubt look around or even better, call them, they have a 800 number. In any case, it's a little bit safer than buying from eBay ;)

[Phoenix]

...The Origami takes back all of the things that a full computer is better at.

I can't say I agree with that 100%. Yes, it's true that any computer can do more than any device out there, but that statement would suggest that a full-fledge computer is the preferred device for doing anything other than PIM. Windows Mobile is good for more than just PIM, and the preferred device for doing many other things in addition, for many people.

Sometimes, a simpler OS is what's best.

No, it would suggest exactly what it says. The Origami allows me to do things on a small, highly portable device that the Pocket PC has never been well suited to doing.

Well certainly XP will allow a person to do things that can't be done on any other device, but that doesn't automatically mean that it's better suited for most every given task.

Origami is trying to squeeze and find a space for itself in between portable computers and handhelds. How many people are going to need an Origami device to manage their lives when on the go? A device with no keyboard and no optical drive that is too big to stuff into a pocket is going to have a difficult time finding acceptance outside of vertical markets. Besides, I can play videos, music, play games, check messages, manage emails, navigate while on the road, make calls, keep my life organized, etc., all on a WM device. Since when is Windows Mobile not well suited to those things? And aside from a notebook computer handling more advanced tasks, how many individuals are seriously going to need a device that can do more than WM when on the go?

Most people in need of accomplishing tasks beyond this are not going to buy an Origami. They're going to buy a notebook computer which has a keyboard and an optical drive.

What small portable device at the pricepoint of an Origami exists now that would allow people to do things they do on a PDA that could be done better on a more powerful device?

A portable notebook. But again, you say "could be done better". Windows is not best suited for every portable task. The point of WM is to keep you connected, organized, and entertained while you're away so you don't have to lug a full computer around with you everywhere you go.

Maybe people do things on Windows Mobile not because they want to but because its currently the best option.

Like who? I think people are going to use what is best for the job. If they wanted more power and flexibility than what WM offered, then they wouldn't force themselves to use WM. They wouldn't buy it in the first place. WM is pocketable. Origami is not. People buy WM devices because they do enough of what they need in a very portable, pocketable form factor when on the go. If people want more power, they're going to buy a notebook/sub-notebook.

I know that some people are going to buy the Origami. This is what they want. But my words are written keeping in mind that this new device is struggling to find a category that has the word "NEED" stamped all over it.

Origami might be a better solution for those using Tablet PC's, but these are found more in vertical markets (specific business/educational settings). I don't see Origami as a device that will ever gain mainstream acceptance.

[Mark Johnson]

...how many individuals are seriously going to need a device that can do more than WM when on the go?


Actually, the way you phrased that question is perfect. It defines the "minimum" size of the "target buyer" market quite well.

The answer to your question is: Every person who currently "normally" carries a WM device AND ALSO an XP notebook when they leave the office. I'm one of them, and that's actually a very large market. The fact that many of us really do NEED to have XP "on the go" means there is quite a bit of demand from those of us in the "Windows Mobile alone just can't cut it for me" crowd.

Obviously the "other camp" (which I'll call the "we ain't gots to show you need no stinking XP when we leaves the office!" group) really would initially react with "what would I need an Origami for?"

There seems to be a decent chance that Microsoft will be able (over time) to coax "you guys" over to the "well maybe I'll carry something a bit bigger if I can play Warcraft" or "OK, I'll consider it when they drop under $700" position. There is essentially none that Microsoft will convince "my guys" that we really can get along just fine with Windows Mobile alone. Basically, they've been trying since PalmSized PC and lots of guys like me know "that dog don't hunt" and never will. We know this because coming on a decade later, we still have to lug the laptop whenever we head out of the office.

It is a reasonable question why they didn't just call it "Tablet PC Micro Edition" or "Tablet PC Mobile Media Edition" or "Tablet PC for Passive Digitizers Which Will Save A Few Bucks Edition" since it is so fundamentally similar. My guess is this is just a (smart) marketing choice since they've generated a lot of buzz.

[Don't Panic!]

If dualcor debuts in Q1 2006 then all bets are off. WM5 and Tablet PC all in one h8y? Geddouttahere. ;)

[whydidnt]

The answer to your question is: Every person who currently "normally" carries a WM device AND ALSO an XP notebook when they leave the office. I'm one of them, and that's actually a very large market. The fact that many of us really do NEED to have XP "on the go" means there is quite a bit of demand from those of us in the "Windows Mobile alone just can't cut it for me" crowd.


I don't agree with this assessment. Very small portable computers are already available. If that was the magic elixir, your colleagues would already have a Libretto, or tiny Sony, Fujitsu, etc. The biggest issue is the lack of a keyboard on Origami. How much of what you use XP for requires text entry of at least a moderate level? Sure you can tack on a portable keyboard, but then your back to carrying yet another bit of hardware.

The mobile device market has already proved that mass market users want a keyboard - witness the success of the Treo and Blackberry devices. The fact that MS, once again has decided one isn't necessary shows they still don't know who is going to buy these devices.
Few people are going to carry something this big around to listen to music, play games or watch movies. There are already smaller, easier to carry devices that do this, and do it well.

This whole thing smacks of someone at MS trying to find a way to get Bill G's beloved tablet PC more widely accepted, instead of trying to solve a specific user need.

[Nurhisham Hussein]

I'm sorry, but that's just not practical at the moment. You can't pack enough storage, enough processor speed, and enough battery power into a small enough case, and the devices that try (like the OQO) usually end up doing everything, and nothing well. I've had an OQO, and a Vaio too. They're large, they run hot, they have extremely short battery life, and they're just not very practical.

I hate to say I agree with ADBrown...but I agree with him :lol: The points he's making are all on the money. I've got the Vaio U8G (a rebranded U50) - a great machine that I picked up for a song (about the equivalent of US$1100), because they're on clearance here. Lovely screen, great at multimedia and presentations, really good wifi, passive digitiser (like a PDA), and a lot of fun. Apart from the smaller screen, built in stand and Touch Pack, it's pretty much a prototypical UMPC. But I also have a Thinkpad X31 (3 1/2 lbs, 12 inch screen) - guess which one I use more?

The Sony is a lot more portable, yes - but that's not much of an advantage when I still have to carry it in a bag, and even less when bringing the adaptor along is a necessity. for the curious, it's about 3.5 to 4 times the size of my Loox. There's a cute foldable keyboard included with the Sony, but it's still nearly as large as the device itself - one more thing to carry.

The battery life is short, about enough for a 2-hour movie, but that's it. In fact the manual actually recommends using it tethered to the AC plug at all times. There's an extended battery available that triples the run time, but at US$400 I'm not sure it's worth it. My X31 can reach 4.5 hrs without breaking a sweat, and 7hrs plus with all power saving options on. I'd worry about the 7-inch screen spec of the Origami/UMPC - it'll take even more juice. This to me is the real deal-breaker for the Origami's (apart from price) - they really need to meet at least the current standard for notebooks in terms of battery life. There's no point in being able to carry around gigabytes of media, when you can only look and listen to a fraction of it without constantly having to hunt for power. I think Apple's quite safe on this score.

Heat - the fan's more or less constantly on when running, and the Sony can get uncomfortable to hold. For that matter, I can still feel heat being generated when on standby - not good. The larger size of the Origami would help with this (more space to dissipate), but you've got higher spec components, like bigger hard drives, to deal with as well.

I'm not sure about Vista, but the XP UI is not really suited for touch panel work. Microsoft's Touch Pack may help, but I seriously doubt it - we really need a new interaction paradigm. And there's one disadvantage of having a larger, 7in screen that utilises a passive digitiser - you could potentially touch the screen with your hand when writing, inadvertantly moving the cursor, which isn't that big of a problem on a 5in screen. That's one of the main reasons why active digitisers were so long a part of the TPC spec, which incidently is why the Vaio U line never qualified as one.

Don't think I'm down on the concept of the Origami/UMPC - I just think that people are going to be disappointed in what it can actually do. This is not a notebook replacement. The passive screen digitiser means it won't overlap much with Tablet PC demand either - no pressure sensitivity. If you've got the right reasons for getting one, then by all means. I think this would be a fantastic device for students, teachers, and people who do a lot of presentations - doing mark ups on your presentations in real time is great for interaction. My Dad would love to get one for that reason, and it's portability. I use the Sony for what I bought it for - notes, equations and diagrams in the classroom, where my PDA screen would be a little cramped to do (of course, gadget lust had a bit to do with it too).

Would I want an Origami? If they manage to solve the issues with current technology - battery life, heat, price, UI - then I'm onboard. Heck, even if they don't, I might get one - but that's the geek in me. But as a mass-market consumer or even business device, I've yet to be convinced.

[Nurhisham Hussein]

The biggest issue is the lack of a keyboard on Origami. How much of what you use XP for requires text entry of at least a moderate level?

Absolutely - text entry with HWR can be a pain, and the alternatives are worse. A lot of the things you take for granted with a keyboard/mouse paradigm, you can't depend on anymore. It's an even larger shift than in Windows Mobile - which was designed from the ground up for pen-based input and interaction. You could use programs like OneNote, which are designed for handwritten notes - but after thirty years of using a keyboard, my handwriting is about as a legible as a doctor's :lol:

[Mark Johnson]

The biggest issue is the lack of a keyboard on Origami. How much of what you use XP for requires text entry of at least a moderate level?

I think there's a bit of a problem with the question. I currently do a great deal of text entry on my XP TabletPC *when I'm at my desk* (and I do it "docked" to my full-size split-layout Microsoft Natural Multimedia keyboard and my IntelliMouse Explorer.) When I'm out of the office, I do almost no text entry on either my PPC or my TPC, I simply "refer to" the data that's already been input.

My problem is that the PPC only lets me refer to the data in a handful of (relatively lame to be honest) "stripped down" versions of the apps I use, and often can't give me ANY access to some apps I need. (Hence the TPC that's always with me.)

I really don't see the lack of a keyboard on the Origami to be a problem for me as I will have a keyboard when I need one (in the office, through a dock or USB cable) and won't have one when I'm on the go (the same way I don't have one now on my Axim.)

[isajoo]

this is whats going on at the reasearch department at microsoft..."well the market already has a regular laptop...we can make a bigger screen like a 20" lcd laptop...no that would suck...the market already has pda/smartphones we can just make them smaller...no that would suck...well what should we make...xp programs are good and laptops are too big to carry around...we can make a lot of people happy by making an xp portable device that they can use on the go" well its not like microsoft had any other way to go... the origami is new concept and it will succeed at its job...it will not kill pocket pcs it does not fit in the pocket(plus smart phones are killing pda...in a sense)...it will not kill ipods it is way too big...it will not kill psp it is not a gamers device(for work only)...it WILL KILL small laptops/tablet pcs because it IS A XP DEVICE WITH A 7" touchscreen.

will i buy 1? hell no...i dont need to pay $800-$1500... my toshiba e750 was $180 bucks... i use it for what it was made for...surfing the web on the toilet and viewing pictures/videos of porn. :lol: and sometimes both. :wink:
the pocketpc is died...long live the pppc=portable porn pc :idea:

[ctitanic]

The answer to your question is: Every person who currently "normally" carries a WM device AND ALSO an XP notebook when they leave the office. I'm one of them, and that's actually a very large market. The fact that many of us really do NEED to have XP "on the go" means there is quite a bit of demand from those of us in the "Windows Mobile alone just can't cut it for me" crowd.


I don't agree with this assessment. Very small portable computers are already available. If that was the magic elixir, your colleagues would already have a Libretto, or tiny Sony, Fujitsu, etc. The biggest issue is the lack of a keyboard on Origami. How much of what you use XP for requires text entry of at least a moderate level? Sure you can tack on a portable keyboard, but then your back to carrying yet another bit of hardware.



you are forgeting the price factor. Small laptops generally cost over 1200.

[Phoenix]

...how many individuals are seriously going to need a device that can do more than WM when on the go?


Actually, the way you phrased that question is perfect. It defines the "minimum" size of the "target buyer" market quite well.

The answer to your question is: Every person who currently "normally" carries a WM device AND ALSO an XP notebook when they leave the office. I'm one of them, and that's actually a very large market. The fact that many of us really do NEED to have XP "on the go" means there is quite a bit of demand from those of us in the "Windows Mobile alone just can't cut it for me" crowd...

OK, let me clarify. When I say "on the go", I'm not targeting mobile business people. I'm talking about when people in general are just out and about - running errands, going to appointments, shopping, picking up the kids, out for fun, etc. Just out and about, on the go... the times where lugging around anything bigger and heavier than a WM device is impractical.

I'm also not suggesting that WM could replace a person's need for a regular computer in life overall. In my life, I need a WM device and a computer (in my case, a laptop), and many people do. But people aren't going to lug around a UMPC in place of a WM device any more than they'd lug around a subnotebook or a portable DVD player everywhere they'd go. During the day, mobile business people will need to make use of a notebook computer from time to time (and for some, everyday during some of their work hours). But that's business. For the rest of our lives, people aren't going to lug this thing around to manage life and play a few games.

This leads me, once again, to point out the fact that a UMPC isn't going to be big enough to practically replace a notebook computer, either. A 7" screen, no optical drive, and no keyboard, while running a complicated OS like XP and it's associated software, all in a form factor that is not pocketable, does not make for a practical device.

Now some people may say, "Well, UMPC's aren't meant to replace notebooks or PPC's." Well I say, "They'd better." Otherwise, what's the point of them?

UMPC's are nice to look at. But they're impractical. Too big, heavy, and complicated to replace WM, and too small and ill-equipped to replace a notebook computer. Aside from any arguments in favor of them that some may make regarding their form factor, and aside from specific vertical market applications, they don't meet any needs that a PPC and a notebook or convertible don't already meet.

Again, some people will buy them. But I truly believe that they aren't going to be mainstream popular.

There seems to be a decent chance that Microsoft will be able (over time) to coax "you guys" over to the "well maybe I'll carry something a bit bigger if I can play Warcraft" or "OK, I'll consider it when they drop under $700" position.

I don't know about that. Although dropping the price to $500 or so could certainly add to any appeal they may already offer to some, it's just not a practical device.

Now let me say once again that I could see it being used in a business or hospital or a school, where people on foot would need a slate form factor and could benefit from something lighter than a standard Tablet PC or convertible.

But no matter how badly Bill Gates wants UMPC's to be the next big thing, if it doesn't meet a real need, a truly practical need (outside of just being a "cool" device to own), then it won't succeed and will simply go the way of the Dodo.

Who knows, maybe the target audience for UMPC's are indeed vertical markets only. Maybe they were never intended for the mainstream.

[ctitanic]

I disagree. I own a PPC and a laptop. I have been using laptops as my main PC since 1994, the main reason is that working as a Programmer many times I need access to my code, some times to change something, sometimes to take a look of it to answer a question. When I'm on vacation I carry my Laptop and my PPC with me. The laptop I already explained the reasons, the PPC to keep answering tech support questions connecting it to a phone via BT. When questions comes from a forum it's a pain in the a$$ to answer them from my PPC. If I have to change anything in the code or in my website I have to wait until I come back to my Laptop. The UMPC is going to give me the possibility of having all I need anytime I need close to me. The PPC will help me to take care of the so called by me "lite" deals.

[Phoenix]

I disagree. I own a PPC and a laptop. I have been using laptops as my main PC since 1994, the main reason is that working as a Programmer many times I need access to my code, some times to change something, sometimes to take a look of it to answer a question. When I'm on vacation I carry my Laptop and my PPC with me. The laptop I already explained the reasons, the PPC to keep answering tech support questions connecting it to a phone via BT. When questions comes from a forum it's a pain in the a$$ to answer them from my PPC. If I have to change anything in the code or in my website I have to wait until I come back to my Laptop. The UMPC is going to give me the possibility of having all I need anytime I need close to me. The PPC will help me to take care of the so called by me "lite" deals.

I hear what you're saying, but you're talking about a very specific business need of yours here. And as I already mentioned, I could see in certain business sectors a UMPC meeting very specific needs (and I do mean "specific", because I don't think even most businesses are going to invest in these). But I'm talking primarily about the level of acceptance from the mainstream public in general.

I don't think the mainstream public is going to start carrying around bags everywhere they go just so they can have their UMPC at their side at all times. And I don't see that becoming a trend anytime soon. Because that's exactly what's going to be needed for anyone who wants to carry one, and these aren't going to be stuffed into a pocket.

I think if these have any success, it's going to be so limited.

[ctitanic]

The main and only problem that I can see on these devices in their first generation is price. We all agree that the price range has to be less than 1000 dollars and close to 500. In the first generation it will be around 1000 dollars and little more and that will harm sales a big time. I'm sure that with the push of MS and Intel joined the price will go down in the second generation.

[ctitanic]

I disagree. I own a PPC and a laptop. I have been using laptops as my main PC since 1994, the main reason is that working as a Programmer many times I need access to my code, some times to change something, sometimes to take a look of it to answer a question. When I'm on vacation I carry my Laptop and my PPC with me. The laptop I already explained the reasons, the PPC to keep answering tech support questions connecting it to a phone via BT. When questions comes from a forum it's a pain in the a$$ to answer them from my PPC. If I have to change anything in the code or in my website I have to wait until I come back to my Laptop. The UMPC is going to give me the possibility of having all I need anytime I need close to me. The PPC will help me to take care of the so called by me "lite" deals.

I hear what you're saying, but you're talking about a very specific business need of yours here. And as I already mentioned, I could see in certain business sectors a UMPC meeting very specific needs (and I do mean "specific", because I don't think even most businesses are going to invest in these). But I'm talking primarily about the level of acceptance from the mainstream public in general.

I don't think the mainstream public is going to start carrying around bags everywhere they go just so they can have their UMPC at their side at all times. And I don't see that becoming a trend anytime soon. Because that's exactly what's going to be needed for anyone who wants to carry one, and these aren't going to be stuffed into a pocket.

I think if these have any success, it's going to be so limited.

For my surprise, the most acceptance is coming no from business but from gamers. I found after the UMPC buzz that gamers are very very unhappy with the PSP, which is the best mobile console in the market. The idea of having something about the size of the PSP for less than 1000 dollars capable of running Windows XP has opened a door to the idea of having PC games (which are a lot better than console games) running in UMPCs. I'm clear that this is not going to happen in the first generation but it's clear to me that YES, there are going to be games for UMPCs and it's clear for me that these devices are easier to customize than Sony's restricted or protected PSPs.

[Phoenix]

...For my surprise, the most acceptance is coming no from business but from gamers...

Well if that really takes off at some point, it'll be very interesting to see what they do with it.

I would add that because UMPC's are computers and not just gaming devices, that gamers would represent a niche market.

[ctitanic]

...For my surprise, the most acceptance is coming no from business but from gamers...

Well if that really takes off at some point, it'll be very interesting to see what they do with it.

I would add that because UMPC's are computers and not just gaming devices, that gamers would represent a niche market.

You can be sure about it. PPCs are not gaming devices but currently the bigger market (at least where the money is and all developers can tell you that) are games. PPCs are not video player but currently everybody has played at least one movie in their PPCs. Now, compare, what's going to be better, to play a game in a PPC or in a UMPC, or to play a movie in a PPC or in an UMPC.

If you check around it's not hard to see that Microsoft is advertising these devices like a new entertainment device even when being a PC there are a lot of serious work that can be done from these devices.

Check my notes about this point here:
http://ultramobilepc-tips.blogspot.com/2006/03/origami-blog-updated.html

[ctitanic]

Check how gamers are trying to find out what games are going to work in these devices:

http://origamiproject.com/forums/thread/7.aspx

or even more...

http://origamiproject.com/forums/thread/1453.aspx

somebody in the above link says that MS could be working in a version of Halo for UMPC.

[Tierran]

OK, let me clarify. When I say "on the go", I'm not targeting mobile business people. I'm talking about when people in general are just out and about - running errands, going to appointments, shopping, picking up the kids, out for fun, etc. Just out and about, on the go... the times where lugging around anything bigger and heavier than a WM device is impractical.

And none of those people use a WM device either. A PDA is a rarity to own...we're a small and dying breed unfortunately.

[whydidnt]

For my surprise, the most acceptance is coming no from business but from gamers. I found after the UMPC buzz that gamers are very very unhappy with the PSP, which is the best mobile console in the market.

For this to work for gamers MS is going to have to convince game manufacturers to do away with their DRM schemes. Most every mainstream game today requires access to the CD/DVD drive to verify the CD. In addition, there are some games that won't run if a virtual drive is found. Now I know there are some that are going to an internet based DRM format, but then the device will HAVE to have connectivity built in. It's not, at least in the current models. I can't see how these devices will be a gamers delight in the current environment - not to mention the probable minimal CPU/GPU included to make the device portable.

[ctitanic]

For my surprise, the most acceptance is coming no from business but from gamers. I found after the UMPC buzz that gamers are very very unhappy with the PSP, which is the best mobile console in the market.

For this to work for gamers MS is going to have to convince game manufacturers to do away with their DRM schemes. Most every mainstream game today requires access to the CD/DVD drive to verify the CD. In addition, there are some games that won't run if a virtual drive is found. Now I know there are some that are going to an internet based DRM format, but then the device will HAVE to have connectivity built in. It's not, at least in the current models. I can't see how these devices will be a gamers delight in the current environment - not to mention the probable minimal CPU/GPU included to make the device portable.

what do you mean by connectivity built in. All of them have WiFi and all of them have BT. So I don't see any problem with Internet games (at least it will have the same problems that PSP owners have right now). About games, I'm sure that we will see new games and solutions for UMPCs. But... older games like Quake and Quake 2 did not need the CD on drive to play ;) These older games needed less video card resources and in this first generation if any game will work right out of the box, those are going to be old games due to video chips limitations ;)

But once again... Games for UMPCs will start to pop up like popcorn.

[ctitanic]

The major problems with games are graphic card and resolution. The 600x480 resolution is not standard so some games like the same Quake probably wont run on that resolution or just part of the screen wont be accessible. Games like strategic kind of probably will have better chance to work without any problem, these games need usually less graphic resources and the screen resolution is more flexible.

But all these are speculations. Like I said, new games will come out ASA the first UMPC hit the market.

Edit: did somebody port quake for PPCs already??? Yes, somebody did that already... so... I'm sure that those guys are thinking about what I'm saying here right now.

[whydidnt]

I think there's a bit of a problem with the question. I currently do a great deal of text entry on my XP TabletPC *when I'm at my desk* (and I do it "docked" to my full-size split-layout Microsoft Natural Multimedia keyboard and my IntelliMouse Explorer.) When I'm out of the office, I do almost no text entry on either my PPC or my TPC, I simply "refer to" the data that's already been input.


We seem to have the exact opposite issue. I don't have too much issue with viewing data on my PPC device, it's the input that I always struggle with. :D

If all you want to do is view the information, then Origami could be a solution for you, but I don't see how Origami is any better solution than current sub-notebooks.

I do think Origami is what TabletPC should have been from the start. I just don't think it's necessarily going to solve large numbers of users needs like MS and Intel seem to think it is.

[ctitanic]

I think there's a bit of a problem with the question. I currently do a great deal of text entry on my XP TabletPC *when I'm at my desk* (and I do it "docked" to my full-size split-layout Microsoft Natural Multimedia keyboard and my IntelliMouse Explorer.) When I'm out of the office, I do almost no text entry on either my PPC or my TPC, I simply "refer to" the data that's already been input.


We seem to have the exact opposite issue. I don't have too much issue with viewing data on my PPC device, it's the input that I always struggle with. :D

If all you want to do is view the information, then Origami could be a solution for you, but I don't see how Origami is any better solution than current sub-notebooks.

I do think Origami is what TabletPC should have been from the start. I just don't think it's necessarily going to solve large numbers of users needs like MS and Intel seem to think it is.

Have you thought that mainly Tablet PC owners are people that don't like and don't want a keyboard? Just think about it for one minute. The use of a sub notebook keyboard is far from be as good experience as using a full size keyboard ;)

[whydidnt]

what do you mean by connectivity built in. All of them have WiFi and all of them have BT. So I don't see any problem with Internet games (at least it will have the same problems that PSP owners have right now).

I'm talking about having 3G connectivity built in. These are mobile devices, and you probably don't have WiFi access everywhere you go. Bluetooth is okay, but I've never had great success getting 3G like connections over bluetooth, and again, is the average consumer going to invest time in setting up a bluetooth connection?

I wasn't actually speaking about Internet enabled games, as much as those games that phone home to make sure it's a valid copy before you can use them. Seems that will probably be the next wave of copy protection on games.

Having tried the whole game thing on the OQO (I know even less power), I think it's more of a red herring, I doubt that Origami is really going to convince large number of gamers to it's platform. Have you ever tried to hold a two pound object in the air for a long period of time, as would be necessary to play games like one does with the PSP? You probably are a lot stronger than me, but my arms get tired after holding the under 1 lb OQO for more than about 20 minutes.

[whydidnt]

Have you thought that mainly Tablet PC owners are people that don't like and don't want a keyboard? Just think about it for one minute. The use of a sub notebook keyboard is far from be as good experience as using a full size keyboard ;)

Sure, but the Tablet PC platform so far has been anything but a huge market, and non-convertible Tablets have been even bigger failures, other than in vertical markets.

I fail to see how a small segment of people who don't want keyboards is going to create a huge market for this platform. Mainstream consumers want keyboards to enter information, this has been proven in the mobile phone market, and will be proven again with this market --- Unless MS's new touch interface is heads and shoulders above anything else we've seen so far. :wink:

[ctitanic]

what do you mean by connectivity built in. All of them have WiFi and all of them have BT. So I don't see any problem with Internet games (at least it will have the same problems that PSP owners have right now).

I'm talking about having 3G connectivity built in. These are mobile devices, and you probably don't have WiFi access everywhere you go. Bluetooth is okay, but I've never had great success getting 3G like connections over bluetooth, and again, is the average consumer going to invest time in setting up a bluetooth connection?

PSP users have more problems than that from the point of view of connectivity and they are happy ;)


I wasn't actually speaking about Internet enabled games, as much as those games that phone home to make sure it's a valid copy before you can use them. Seems that will probably be the next wave of copy protection on games. Here you go and good solution.


Having tried the whole game thing on the OQO (I know even less power), I think it's more of a red herring, I doubt that Origami is really going to convince large number of gamers to it's platform. Have you ever tried to hold a two pound object in the air for a long period of time, as would be necessary to play games like one does with the PSP? You probably are a lot stronger than me, but my arms get tired after holding the under 1 lb OQO for more than about 20 minutes.
You are getting old my friend! If game makers for PPC convinced owners I'm sure that now they are going to convince UMPC onwers too.

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

So I guess no one here has any strong opinions on Origami? :lol:

I just wanted to state that everyone here is making some strong and valid points on both sides of the fence. Great discussion and no flames! Keep it up.

[Perry Reed]

I've noticed a few people making the argument that the UMPCs are just a solution looking for a problem. I find that amusing given that that same argument has been made so many times regarding Pocket PCs (and PDAs in general).

[ctitanic]

So I guess no one here has any strong opinions on Origami? :lol:

I just wanted to state that everyone here is making some strong and valid points on both sides of the fence. Great discussion and no flames! Keep it up.

I enjoy when a discussion is well and decently handled. To know the point of view of others is the only way to progress. ;)

[ctitanic]

I've noticed a few people making the argument that the UMPCs are just a solution looking for a problem. I find that amusing given that that same argument has been made so many times regarding Pocket PCs (and PDAs in general).

Exactly! I really was expecting more support in a PPC community that is used to this kind of arguments against small devices like PDAs. But again, reviewing all posts we have more people supporting Origamis here than people no supporting these devices. I believe that at the end, price is going to be the one saying the last word.

[Oleander]

I had the fine opportunity to put my grubby little hands at the Samsung Origami unit at Cebit. Before even getting there, my cow-orkers where pretty tired of hearing about the wonders of the Origami. So you could pretty much say I was biased towards the Origami.
All this changed after 5 minutes with it between my hands. :?

This device is _exactly_ so heavy that the only way I can imagine that I would use it would be at a tabletop and I would carry it around in my backpack. Hey wait! There's already a device doing that (http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/latit_x1?c=us&amp;cs=555&amp;l=en&amp;s=biz&amp;~tab=viewstab#tabtop)

My opinion is that Origami has folded before the game has begun.

[whydidnt]

Having tried the whole game thing on the OQO (I know even less power), I think it's more of a red herring, I doubt that Origami is really going to convince large number of gamers to it's platform. Have you ever tried to hold a two pound object in the air for a long period of time, as would be necessary to play games like one does with the PSP? You probably are a lot stronger than me, but my arms get tired after holding the under 1 lb OQO for more than about 20 minutes.
You are getting old my friend! If game makers for PPC convinced owners I'm sure that now they are going to convince UMPC onwers too.

No argument about the getting old part. :D
But, seriously have you ever tried to hold a two pound object in front of your body for an extended period of time. I can assure you it is a decidedly different experience than holding a 7 ounce PPC device (at least for me).

[ctitanic]

I had the fine opportunity to put my grubby little hands at the Samsung Origami unit at Cebit. Before even getting there, my cow-orkers where pretty tired of hearing about the wonders of the Origami. So you could pretty much say I was biased towards the Origami.
All this changed after 5 minutes with it between my hands. :?

This device is _exactly_ so heavy that the only way I can imagine that I would use it would be at a tabletop and I would carry it around in my backpack. Hey wait! There's already a device doing that (http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/latit_x1?c=us&amp;cs=555&amp;l=en&amp;s=biz&amp;~tab=viewstab#tabtop)

My opinion is that Origami has folded before the game has begun.

The origami is that heavy that you are willing then to carry the Dell X1, 2.5 pounds! Origami=less than 2 pounds, that's the whole idea.

[ctitanic]

Having tried the whole game thing on the OQO (I know even less power), I think it's more of a red herring, I doubt that Origami is really going to convince large number of gamers to it's platform. Have you ever tried to hold a two pound object in the air for a long period of time, as would be necessary to play games like one does with the PSP? You probably are a lot stronger than me, but my arms get tired after holding the under 1 lb OQO for more than about 20 minutes.
You are getting old my friend! If game makers for PPC convinced owners I'm sure that now they are going to convince UMPC onwers too.

No argument about the getting old part. :D
But, seriously have you ever tried to hold a two pound object in front of your body for an extended period of time. I can assure you it is a decidedly different experience than holding a 7 ounce PPC device (at least for me).

My wife is going to be happy to see me doing some exercise! :D And from my previous post you can see that people are happier to carry 2.5 pounds around. ;)

[ctitanic]

Hey wait! There's already a device doing that (http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/latit_x1?c=us&amp;cs=555&amp;l=en&amp;s=biz&amp;~tab=viewstab#tabtop)


Hey wait! there is a device costing 1748 dollars and up!

[ctitanic]

can you use ink in your PC to do this?

http://www.tweaks2k2.com/images/mix06.jpg

More pictures and news here

http://www.whatisnew.com/blogs/dailynews/archive/2006/03/22/7649.aspx


Blue Origami
http://static.flickr.com/51/115033841_589fcc87fa_m.jpg

[adamz]

&lt;snip>
My hope is that if MS finally gets a decent "one-handed navigation" interface for WMP on the Origami, I'll just dock it in my car and be able to dump the Nano as well.

&lt;snip>
I'm sure there will be plenty of "in-car" docks that will let you put the music player audio into your car stereo AND charge the unit on the road, so battery life will be a non-issue. You dock it at home at night and it charges, you get into your car to drive to work and it charges, you get to your office desk and dock it and it charges, you get into your car for a client meeting and dock it and it charges, etc. For a lot of people like me, 3 or 4 hour battery life IS "all day battery life."

Sounds like not too many people read Mark Johnson's post there. The best place for these UMPCs is docked on the dashboard of the car. They cost about the same as a built-in GPS navigation system, but they'll give you added features such as music, movies, games, email, internet, handwritten input, touch screen input, etc... in addition to GPS Navigation... in addition to the ability to easily take it out of the car and use elsewhere. This is a much better solution than a non-removable in-car computer.
You can't use a Laptop in the car. You can't use a Tablet PC in the car. The UMPC's large touch-screen and big buttons are perfect. Windows Mobile devices tend to be a bit small and underpowered for in-car systems. It's not supposed to be a laptop replacement or a Windows Mobile phone replacement, and you shouldn't be typing on a keyboard while driving. The touch screen and voice recognition will give you easy access to the information and entertainment you need most while mobile.

[Nurhisham Hussein]

Check how gamers are trying to find out what games are going to work in these devices:

Great links thanks.

The major problems with games are graphic card and resolution. The 600x480 resolution is not standard so some games like the same Quake probably wont run on that resolution or just part of the screen wont be accessible. Games like strategic kind of probably will have better chance to work without any problem, these games need usually less graphic resources and the screen resolution is more flexible.

The problem I see, beyond the wide screen resolution and GPU, is interaction. Leaving aside new games specially designed for the Origami/UMPC, a lot of older games, both FPS and RTS, still require some interaction with a keyboard or multi-button joystick/gamepad. This was only brought up once in the threads you linked to - people are still thinking in the mouse/keyboard paradigm even when it's obviously not there. I haven't tried an FPS on my Sony yet, but Jagged Alliance 2 was rather awkward to control - lots of keyboard commands. MOO2 worked well, as did Space Empires IV. In all cases, using the stylus was preferable to the onboard mini-joystick/buttons combo.

The origami is that heavy that you are willing then to carry the Dell X1, 2.5 pounds! Origami=less than 2 pounds, that's the whole idea.

I'd rather it was lighter - even 2lbs is too much for something you're using in your hands. The Sony's weight or just little heavier is about perfect - around 1.2lbs. Based on my point above about stylus vs onboard buttons, you really need to be able to carry this around in one hand - in which case lighter is better.

[Phoenix]

OK, let me clarify. When I say "on the go", I'm not targeting mobile business people. I'm talking about when people in general are just out and about - running errands, going to appointments, shopping, picking up the kids, out for fun, etc. Just out and about, on the go... the times where lugging around anything bigger and heavier than a WM device is impractical.

And none of those people use a WM device either. A PDA is a rarity to own...we're a small and dying breed unfortunately.

That's a black and white statement if I ever heard one, and not true. Many people use handhelds - they've sold by the millions. But if you think that no one carries something as pocketable as a PPC, consider how few will lug around a bigger, bulkier, heavier UMPC.


I've noticed a few people making the argument that the UMPCs are just a solution looking for a problem. I find that amusing given that that same argument has been made so many times regarding Pocket PCs (and PDAs in general).

I hear ya, but people always make arguments on both sides of the fence for just about anything new.

However, there are different attributes at play here with UMPC's that didn't exist for handhelds. Attributes that are harder to justify.


...The best place for these UMPCs is docked on the dashboard of the car...

Now I could see a UMPC serving, potentially, as a good solution for an all-in-one in-car computer that would remain docked in the car 99% of the time, but first some conditions would need to be met (at least IMO):

- UMPC's would need to be equipped with 3G+ data and cellular voice capability in addition to Wifi and BT, as I've mentioned before.
- There would need to be excellent peripherals connected to it (like an optical drive, wireless keyboard and mouse (ThinkOutside?), and BT GPS transceiver).
- There would need to be great software to go along with it that could simplify navigating features while on the road.
- And again, the price of UMPC's would need to drop to $500 (give or take a bit).

This is a very specific application, but again, this would be vertical - a real niche market.

[ctitanic]

hishamh, you have packed all the problems that gamers will have with UMPCs very well. But, currently you can find 1000s of games for PC and even if just 10% of them can be used in Origamis that 10% is going to be 100 or 1000s times more than what is available for PSP or any other portable console. ;)

Adding that to the fact that Games developers wont miss this oportunity I still think that gamers will be or become part of the destination market of origamis.

Origamis as a Road Assistent or Navigation system is another huge market. And I do not think that you are going to need many accessories for that. Of course, a 3G or GPRS connection is going to be a MUST HAVE but there are some solutions currently in the market that can be used without having to change anything in the Origamis of this first generation. Coming generation will be better no doubt about it and this limitations will become available as soon as they become cheaper technology.

[Stephen Beesley]

I believe that at the end, price is going to be the one saying the last word.

I agree that this is the key issue - if these devices come in around the same as a top end PPC then well and good, the more they vary from that price then the less success IMHO.

Unfortunately, I suspect that they are going to be a lot more expensive than I would like, particularly in non-US markets :mecry:

[Phoenix]

...Origamis as a Road Assistent or Navigation system is another huge market. And I do not think that you are going to need many accessories for that...

I mention the other peripherals because I see the Origami not just as a navigational device, but as an in-car entertainment system (which is what I should have said in my last post, just to clarify). This of course, would include movies, audio CD's, AM/FM and satellite radio, TV, internet access and data/voice communications, and so forth, which would require the peripherals I made mention of (in addition to others). Using a UMPC only for navigation would be a real waste of all of its other abilities, and I think there are better solutions if navigation is all someone wants.

I have to say, now that I have my focus on this device as an in-car entertainment/navigation solution, I'm pretty excited about its potential. Lots of possiblities in this sector.

We need a good in-car software solution for it (something similar to what Drivesoft (http://www.drivesoft.net/ds_images_screens.htm) offers with their in-car systems) and a much lower price.

But as I've been giving this application more thought, for UMPC's to be really effective in this area, they're most likely going to need other design elements that I didn't mention before - that is, a slightly more rugged design. They'll need the ability to withstand hot and cold temperatures and humidity (say, when your car is parked out in the hot sun, the freezing cold (as well as out in the cold all night), and whether it's dry or humid). They're also going to need a shock-absorbing design that would allow them to withstand excessive vibration when driving. And of course, optical drives and maybe other components would need similar designs specs.

I haven't investigated what the best peripheral solution would be for AM/FM/satellite radio, TV, and maybe other auxillary controls (like a car-cam) in conjuction with a UMPC. But I think that would be the only thing left to figure out.

[phmurphy]

I haven't had time to read the almost 100 replies, but as a plant ecologist, I am always looking for a better clipboard-like data collector. I do a lot with the PDA but it would be nice to have better screen visibility outside, and I like a bigger screen so I can see more of each map. So what is the screen type? TFT works pretty good, but the best light for the screen is when the sun is coming over your right or left shoulder and you are typically only a little twitch away from having the sun flashed directly into your eyes since the PDA can function like a mirror.

Next are weight and battery life. WE are on the way to my dream clipboard, but this is just a step in the right direction if the screen, weight, battery life and price are just right.

Pat

[Pete Wilson]

Anyone who thinks Windows Mobile is designed for a pen has never used a Newton. Windows Mobile is a joke compared to the Newton's pen interface.


It's an even larger shift than in Windows Mobile - which was designed from the ground up for pen-based input and interaction.

[Stephen Beesley]

Anyone who thinks Windows Mobile is designed for a pen has never used a Newton. Windows Mobile is a joke compared to the Newton's pen interface.


It's an even larger shift than in Windows Mobile - which was designed from the ground up for pen-based input and interaction.

Could not agree more - the WM interface is just scaled down Windows with pen support. Now the Newton OS, that was a real pen centric operating system.

I frequently take out my ol' Newton 2000 and have a doodle around and every time I do so I wish for a new device with an updated version of the OS.

On the Origami front, I am intrigued by the little semi-circular "soft keyboards" (or what ever the hell they are...) that you seem to be able to invoke in the bottom left and right of the screen - any info on what these are for?

[sergiobiguzzi]

As physician, I would love to have something larger than my Ipaq 4700 and smaller than my Dell Latitude X1.
I would still keep the Latitude in my briefcase and leave the Origami in my office to be used within the Hospital while I make rounds or a see patient in the clinic.
Only one condition, almost a MUST. The possibility of turning on the Origami instantly. There is nothing more upsetting than having few colleagues standing by to wait for the familiar Windows XP sound.
I will check one out as soon as they will be available.
Sergio Biguzzi

[Nurhisham Hussein]

Anyone who thinks Windows Mobile is designed for a pen has never used a Newton. Windows Mobile is a joke compared to the Newton's pen interface.

Could not agree more - the WM interface is just scaled down Windows with pen support.

Point taken - but that doesn't invalidate the point I was trying to make, in fact just the opposite. If you think WM is cumbersome, try Win XP with a pen. Tablet PCs have the advantage of having a multi-function pen, but the Origamis will have passive digitisers, which limit you to tap and tap'n'hold.

On the Origami front, I am intrigued by the little semi-circular "soft keyboards" (or what ever the hell they are...) that you seem to be able to invoke in the bottom left and right of the screen - any info on what these are for?

It's a thumb keyboard - more info here (http://www.dialkeys.com/).