iPAQ Revenues Down 25 Percent

[Janak Parekh]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://brighthand.com/article/HP_Results_Q4_05' target='_blank'>http://brighthand.com/article/HP_Results_Q4_05</a><br /><br /></div><i>"During its most recent financial quarter, HP took in $216 million from sales of its iPAQ models. This is 25 percent below the amount the company took in during the same period of the previous year."</i><br /><br />Ed over at Brighthand speculates that it's part of the general decline of nonconnected devices, but HP hasn't helped itself by: a) having an inconsistent device strategy that cannibalizes their own products (noticed that the hx4700 isn't listed on their webpage anymore?); b) being extremely slow to release connected/converged devices, and c) slow to release WM5-supported devices and upgrades, essentially making many of their devices outdated while other vendors blow past them. Let's hope the <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=46416">recent HP reorganization</a> effort bears fruit and turns this line around.

[Menneisyys]

c) slow to release WM5-supported devices and upgrades, essentially making many of their devices outdated while other vendors blow past them

Well, half a year ago I would have 100% agreed with this, but, seeing the WM5 problems with the Dell Axim x50 WM5 upgrades, I think HP (and Fujitsu-Siemens, for that matter) was right in choosing not to rush to the market with useless WM5 upgrades.

I think the rushed WM5 upgrades, in the long run, cause much more problems to Dell than good.

[Darius Wey]

c) slow to release WM5-supported devices and upgrades, essentially making many of their devices outdated while other vendors blow past them.

Now that you mention it, it's probably worth pointing out that the American release date of the recently-announced hw6900 series has been pushed from Spring to Summer. Ain't it grand? :(

[Janak Parekh]

Well, half a year ago I would have 100% agreed with this, but, seeing the WM5 problems with the Dell Axim x50 WM5 upgrades, I think HP (and Fujitsu-Siemens, for that matter) was right in choosing not to rush to the market with useless WM5 upgrades.
Well... HP claims that the delay was due to the difficulty in obtaining a driver/license -- let's not assume the fact that they're releasing it late makes it any better, or that Dell couldn't have done a better job in their timeframe.

In addition, at least Dell has a flagship unit with VGA; HP doesn't even have that anymore, it seems.

--janak

[DaleReeck]

I wouldn't be shocked to see HP leave the market altogether. Their recent converged offerings don't seem very inspired and their nonconverged devices have all but disappeared it seems. The fact there is no direct replacement (as far as we know) for the 4700 (i.e., a VGA device) is telling IMO.

[Menneisyys]

The fact there is no direct replacement (as far as we know) for the 4700 (i.e., a VGA device) is telling IMO.

Yup, the folks at HP consider the hx2790 as the successor of the hx4700 :)

[Menneisyys]

let's not assume the fact that they're releasing it late makes it any better

Well, seeing Dell's failure with the x50 WM5 upgrade, I think HP will really try to come up with something less disastrous :) Of course, time will tell... I really hope the hx4700 WM5 upgrade will be bugfree because, then, I may also get a hx4700 because of the gorgeous screen.

or that Dell couldn't have done a better job in their timeframe.

Well, Dell hasn't done much either in the last six months, x50 WM5 upgrade-wise. Of course, in their defense: they have concentrated on fixing the bugs in their x51 series (the last A06 ROM is pretty good - but, IMHO, isn't as stable and reliable as that of the Qtek 9100 1.6.7.1); maybe this is why they have almost completely neglected x50 users. Perhaps, if they haven't had a new series to bugfix, they may have released a much better WM5 upgrade for the "old" series.

[dhpss]

BIG YAWN for all Windows Mobile vendors in the US...
Look at the store shelves of all major retail stores..A couple of PDAs sitting there collecting dust..and start disappearing one by one...All the sales persons are clueless....

Only thing that are in the hype our days are convergeance devices since they have the phone in it and they are mostly phone centric...

But the vendors seem to neglect the power PDA users..(VGA, nice form factor, Storage Slots,...)

As far as HP is concerned...No wonder all the iPaq enthousiast Web Site (e.g. DavesiPaq, iPaqHQ, etc...) are converted to different identity..

HP wake up...You are losing your iPaq brand...

[DaleReeck]

Yep. Back in the day, all my PDA stuff was bought in a store. Now, I can't remember the last time I bought a PDA in a store (well, my current Sprint 6700, but even that was still designed by Taiwanese HTC). All my stuff over the last two years was bought from Europe (e.g., Pocket Loox) or Asia (HTC devices like the PDA2K and Universal).

Stores used to have 10 PocketPC's and as many Palms on display. Now, you are lucky to see one or two HP's, a couple of Palms and a GPS/PDA combo device or two. The phone store is where all the PDA's are at now :)

[paschott]

Actually, I stopped paying a lot of attention to HP after they decided that they weren't going to offer upgrades to WM2003SE for a lot of their devices. One of the main reasons I bought an iPaq initially was because of Compaqs history of providing at least one version upgrade. That and the dual-memory slots factored in when I dropped the money on the device. Less than a year later it was obsolete and unsupported except for some really minor and (to me) pointless patches.

Honestly, I'm looking more at something like the JasJar or similar now. One device, VGA, keyboard, either PPC or HPC configuration. Only drawback I can see so far is the price. :cry:

I agree with some of the earlier comments - give us more of what we're looking for - VGA, more memory, WM5, CF and SD (no wierd proprietary stuff - we don't want to switch our memory cards again), built-in wireless, and the option of phone/no phone for that. I personally like the slide-out keyboard some of the devices have, but keyboard isn't a must have to me. And don't forget to actually offer us full version upgrades - we're willing to pay for them. It beats buying a brand new device when the current one is capable of handling it.

As it currently stands, my next device is unlikely to be an HP as they just don't have my trust as a company that cares about what I want or will support me in the future. If that changes, I will reconsider.

-Pete (hoping someone @ HP is actually listening)

[airconvent]

I'm not too keen on these new "convergent" devices.
But Dell did give HP a run for their money. Full featured, VGA and CHEAPER than HP products. They lost alot of market share to Dell. If not for the fact Dell stumbled on their WM5 implementation, HP would probably had done worse.
They took too long to get rid of the 4700 which was becoming long in the tooth and a tad too big for todays pint size devices. What HP should have done long ago was to give the 2750 a VGA screen and price it the same as the Dell or cheaper. that would have made both the 4700 and 2750 lovers happy....
but of course, we can't deny the emergence of the convergent devices as can be seen from the popularity of the O2 Atom &amp; Mini , Dopods , etc.

[Mark Johnson]

I think the issue is larger than "one manufacturer has misstepped" or "the market now wants converged devices" or any of the other speculation we've been seeing in recent years.

I remember when the changes in the platform were DRAMATIC each year. Mono went to color, size reductions were substantial, power was increasing in ways you'd notice every day no matter what you used it for. Now the last major upgrade to the platform as a whole was the move to VGA. I don't, by any means, count the release of WM2005 as a "major" upgrade (which isn't to say it's not an improvement, just not one that really makes an Axim x51v dramatically more functional than a x50v.)

The devices are not shrinking, they are not "doing" anything fundamentally different than the devices of three years ago, their prices are not going down to any significant degree. What's to buy? The only thing even announced that I'd open my wallet for is the Acer n300/311 and they're not even for sale in North America.

We're in the PPC doldrums now I'm afraid. Remember the late 90's when at every Comdex you were going to see something new you HAD to have? When hardcore PPC people like us just couldn't stop ourselves from buying a new unit EVERY year?
1997: Wow! the Casio e10 has a pen interface! I gotta have that!
1998: Wow! the e100 has color! I GOTTA have that now!
1999: Dude the Jornada 540 is WAY smaller! Give it to me NOW!
2000: The 568 has a D-pad, hi-res color, an SD slot! Want it bad!
2001: The Toshiba is even thinner! How much?!? Here's my credit card!
2002: Wow! The HP 1910 is smaller yet! I'll trade you a kidney for it!
2003: What happened? Why is there nothing to buy this year?
2004: Hello? Microsoft? Sell me something please?
2005: Finally! The Axim x50v! Gotta have the VGA. Too bad it's so big.
2006: Anyone gonna sell something cool this year? Hello, anyone? Hey Acer, can I have that n300? No? Please? Still no? Oh well, I guess I can stick with the x50v for another year...

No wonder the "enthusiasm" is dropping off. There's nothing to buy this year that's different from what I already own. That's the PPC market in a microcosm.

[jngold_me]

No wonder the "enthusiasm" is dropping off. There's nothing to buy this year that's different from what I already own. That's the PPC market in a microcosm.

Enthusiasm for traditional PDA's yes, but there's a new mad rush for converged devices.

HP just realizes this now and that's why they have re-org'ed the handheld division to be a separate operating unit.

As for Dell, maybe they'll buy Palm. ;)

[axe]

Actually, I stopped paying a lot of attention to HP after they decided that they weren't going to offer upgrades to WM2003SE for a lot of their devices. One of the main reasons I bought an iPaq initially was because of Compaqs history of providing at least one version upgrade. That and the dual-memory slots factored in when I dropped the money on the device. Less than a year later it was obsolete and unsupported except for some really minor and (to me) pointless patches.

wow, I thought I was reading one of my old posts. I couldn't agree more, and I don't even consider HPs when thinking about upgrades. I haven't broken down and bought the Dell x50/51 series yet, but I sure drool at them. As for Dell's upgrade woes, at least they are commited to getting it right, based on the Flashes I've seen... At least their hat is in the upgrade ring.

with my bluetooth phone and data plan, I'm happy not to be looking down the converged road, so that's not a isue for me.

my 2c

[rob_ocelot]

IMO, this is the trickle-down effect of their decision two years ago to not release WM2003SE upgrades for particular models and their lame backtracking excuses as to why. Consumers usually have a fairly short memory but the effects of this particular screwing had cemented itself in the minds of many HP owners at the time.

It's sad when nearly three years after it's release the h4150 is still a worthy machine for routine tasks -- in the wake of 500-600+ Mhz VGA 'powerhouses' which really haven't been all that much of a quantum leap over those older QVGA machines. HP never saw the potential in the h4xxx series three years ago and still don't get it now when they release like-a-looks like the neutered rx1950.

Perhaps PPC makers should take a cue from the videogame console industry -- get the hardware into as many hands as possible, even to the point of taking a loss and then make your money with software (and in this case OS upgrades, but imagine if some of the really good 3rd party software was sold under the HP banner?). We would have gladly shelled out for WM2003SE and then some.

[whydidnt]

HP's biggest issue has been lack of commitment to the converged device area where most growth with PDA's is now occurring. They still haven't shown that they understand that market. Both the 63XX series and the 65XX series are too large to be considered as an everyday phone by the masses. The size of the device, as much as ease of use has been a prime driving force in large quantities of consumers desire to use the Treo. HP apparently still hasn't figured this out, stuck trying to create PDA's that have phones rather than vice versa.

Couple the above with extremely unimaginative, ugly hardware designs in the most recent offerings and slow roll out of devices with the new OS and I'd say they are lucky that they haven't lost more market share. I still say it goes back to the way they seem to have abandoned the Compaq styling that was originally present with the Ipaq.

Finally, let's face it, MS has really let all of their OEM's down with their implementation of WM5. Their first attempt at persistent storage is pretty poorly thought out and has introduced many issues that the OEM's's are stuck trying to fix by stealing RAM for cache, etc. Other than persistent storage (which for many of us isn't a huge issue, since we have been using a regular backup program) there just doesn't seem enough there to get large quantities of people to spend the money to upgrade.

[SteveHoward999]

BIG YAWN for all Windows Mobile vendors in the US...
Look at the store shelves of all major retail stores..A couple of PDAs sitting there collecting dust..and start disappearing one by one...All the sales persons are clueless....

Those scarce few PDAs are usually broken and abused Palms. I haven't seen a PocketPC on a shelf in my area since about a year ago - and that was a broken and abused Toshiba E400.

It would be good if

1 - the American youth had more respect for items on display for trial
2 - the vendors watched out for such abuse and spanked the offenders
3 - the vendors replaced the broken machines instead of leaving them on display
4 - the vendors had a friggin' clue!


I noticed a particular keyboard on a store recently that had clearly been deliberately smashed. Most of the keys were missing, and the few remaining were not attached. "Ignorant kids", I thought. I went to a competitor store next door - amazingly they had the same keyboard on display, in the same sorry state. I visited a third store and saw the same thing.

Now the even more amazing thing is that I want back to two of these stores a couple of weeks later, and the same keyboards (or possibly their replacements) were on display in exactly the same sorry state. It doesn't take a genious to remove/replace the keyboard or put it in one of the glass display cases. Anything but leave the keyboard there on public display. But apparently the sales staff are not attentive enough to address such issues.


&lt;puff, pant> Yes, I'm OK, thanks. I needed that!

[Janak Parekh]

We're in the PPC doldrums now I'm afraid. Remember the late 90's when at every Comdex you were going to see something new you HAD to have? When hardcore PPC people like us just couldn't stop ourselves from buying a new unit EVERY year?
That's only the case if you look at nonconverged devices. Converged device-wise, I've been blown away by the power I hold in my hand with a JasJar or even a Treo 700w. The integration of fast input, fast data, compelling form-factor... the devices are becoming more useable for a greater variety of tasks. If you're saying they've lost the toy factor, that's possible. They've grown up. I still find them compelling updates, though.

And by your metric, desktops and laptops move far more slowly than handheld devices do, even now.

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

Finally, let's face it, MS has really let all of their OEM's down with their implementation of WM5. Their first attempt at persistent storage is pretty poorly thought out and has introduced many issues that the OEM's's are stuck trying to fix by stealing RAM for cache, etc.
No, I don't face it. ;) I have very few problems with their implementation of persistent store. It's fair to say that for touchscreen-intensive applications, WM5 offers few visible updates, but I am very happy with my WM5 phones compared to my horribly clumsy, "tap on screen" 2003 devices. Now, unless I'm playing games, I rarely take out the stylus.

--janak

[disconnected]

I've had 5 iPAQs, from 36xx to 4700. I bought just about every new generation because there was always something new being added -- card slots, Bluetooth, WiFi, VGA. Now there doesn't seem to be anything for me to buy.

I've been perfectly happy with 2 devices, iPAQ and bluethooth phone, with free unlimited Vision from Sprint, but there's no upgrade path now. If I buy a new EVDO Sprint phone, they can apparently now track tethered usage, and unlimited tethering is 80.00 per month! I'd pay about 20.00, but definitely not 80.00

I'd be willing to go to a converged device, but the screens are all too small. I seldom use my phone for voice calls, so I don't care much about phone features, but I don't want to lose PDA features. My eyes are not the greatest, and I use the iPAQ extensively for reading ebooks and navigation (Mapopolis); I want a VGA screen, 3.5 inches at the very least, preferably larger, and 2 slots, either SD and CF or both SD. I don't care about keyboards (wouldn't really mind one if it was hidden) or cameras (fine if it's there, fine if it's not). USB host, GPS, and profiles for bluetooth headphones would be nice, but I can live without them. I don't care one way or the other about persistent storage, and I'm not thrilled with the idea of not being able to synch with WiFi. I'd definitely like more RAM. I wasn't happy about losing RAM going from the 5500 to the 4700; Mapopolis is a memory hog.

I'm afraid that most people want their devices as small as possible, and that all new converged devices will have small screens. Ironically, at the same time the PDA/phone is shrinking, there are starting to be more dedicated ebook readers coming along.

[SteveHoward999]

I seldom use my phone for voice calls, so I don't care much about phone features, but I don't want to lose PDA features. My eyes are not the greatest, and I use the iPAQ extensively for reading ebooks and navigation (Mapopolis); I want a VGA screen, 3.5 inches at the very least, preferably larger, and 2 slots, either SD and CF or both SD. I don't care about keyboards (wouldn't really mind one if it was hidden) or cameras (fine if it's there, fine if it's not). USB host, GPS, and profiles for bluetooth headphones would be nice, but I can live without them. I don't care one way or the other about persistent storage, and I'm not thrilled with the idea of not being able to synch with WiFi. I'd definitely like more RAM.

See you and me a re in the same boat - we have great PDAs that we like and we can see no desirable upgrade path right now. The closest for me would be the HTC Universal, but I need a quad-band phone so it's a no-go. Besides, it does not offer enough 'more' than my E830 to make it worthwhile forking out $1,000 (how much???) for.

I live in hope that there is a manufacturer out there that has plans to make large-screen VGA devices, converged or not, that will get my juices flowing. Meantime there really is little to beat the machines we have right now, even if they are almost 2 years old ...

[signothefish]

What's obvious is that vendors are realizing that the masses are not attracted by the kind of features that we power-users find appealing. Instead, I believe Pocket PC vendors have put new features on hold, even backtracked a little, in order to make the transition from stand-alone PDAs to mobile communicators. That's clearly where the brunt of their focus is right now.

Unfortunately, the wireless speeds are changing so fast that I'm afraid these same vendors are going to concentrate on keeping up with the networks (3G, 4G, 5G, etc). That will keep them so busy, they'll hardly have time to improve on the other features (802.11g, VGA, larger RAM, power improvements, etc). Look all around you, the latest trend shows they don't care near as much about these things as the communication part of the device. For those who are interested in converged devices, the latest trend is a welcome one.

:soapbox: Think of all of us who are already locked into a contract with our current wireless provider. Most of us could no more afford one of these new converged devices (not that we would want one that bad anyway) than we could an OQO. And once our contract is up, we realize we will have to pay at least $300 for a new device, and that will come with a renewed 2-year contract, and a hefty wireless bill each month because we want a large number of minutes during peak hours, and unlimited use of the fastest network just so we can see a bunch of web pages on a miniature screen (oh, and have push mail). Not to mention, the high-speed networks only cover the major metropolitan areas right now, so that leaves a lot of people out. And the US isn't like Europe, where the masses are more interested in connected devices because a lot of the high-speed networks are already in place due to a dense population. In the US, there are still a whole lot of people that live in the boondocks. And we're just getting to the point where cable modem and DSL are starting to take root in the rural areas. So what do we do? Stay with our current device and moan and complain about the lackluster new offerings. I think US users are affected most by the latest trends.

So when will the featuristic devices start up again? As soon as people either:
(1) Get tired of the newness of having converged devices on high-speed wireless networks they they either are not using that much, or
(2) They want to start taking advantage of that technology more with quality streaming media.
Then and only then will they realize they need something more out of their device. That's when they'll start screaming for better resolution screens, faster processors, better power technology, faster and better utilized graphics processors, etc. Until then, I'll either continue to stay on my soap box, or I'll move on to something else, such as one of those handheld PCs.

[bnycastro]

I agree there are so few PDA only devices now. Most devices coming out are converged... personally I like converged devices but would still like to see PDA only devices come out. Manufacturers need to understand that there is still demand for PDA only devices. By 'phasing out' [for lack of a better term] PDA only devices they are shooing away a lot of potential customers.

re: hp... compaq/hp drew me into using PPCs... it's sad that they are not innovating anymore my last iPAQ was a h2210... since then I've bought an i-mate and a dopod. The current iPAQs seem to lack the WOW factor of previous iPAQs The upcoming hw69xx isn't so enticing either.

[SteveHoward999]

What's obvious is that vendors are realizing that the masses are not attracted by the kind of features that we power-users find appealing.


Yeah that's true - but only because they don't know or understand just what those features are. I've shown my PDA to various people over the years and every one has been amazed by what it could do (particularly GPS, 3D games, video, highly interactive Flash stuff). Why? Because they had absolutely no idea that PDAs were anything more than glorified personal organisers. PDA manufacturers appear to have done absolutely no marketing to show people their true power and versatility.

Now that zillions of kidz are going to get their hands on converged devices, that is going to change pretty quickly ... but whether that resurrects the 'power' PDA or not remains to be seen. I do, however, agree that it *should* turn the kidz on to more powerful PDAs with larger screens so my fingers are crossed.

[Janak Parekh]

Yeah that's true - but only because they don't know or understand just what those features are.
That's not entirely true. While some of the high-end features are good for a small amount of the population, they simply aren't high priorities for most people -- more people than you'd imagine. My officemate, who is a CS PhD candidate like me, and a geek, is now the owner of a XV6700, Sony PSP, and an iPod Video -- and he almost never plays video on any of them.

Sure, he'd love a VGA display, and so would I -- but, honestly, I've given up the Jasjar because it was too big for the common uses of my PDA. I think you'll see VGA become far more pervasive in connected devices once the power requirements and cost requirements of smaller-sized VGA screens go down. Finally, I don't see connected/converged devices going away anytime soon; they're going to become more dominant. Disconnected power PDAs will remain, but as a distinctly niche item.

Well, my 2 cents. ;)

--janak

[sofene]

IMO, this is the trickle-down effect of their decision two years ago to not release WM2003SE upgrades for particular models and their lame backtracking excuses as to why. Consumers usually have a fairly short memory but the effects of this particular screwing had cemented itself in the minds of many HP owners at the time.

It's sad when nearly three years after it's release the h4150 is still a worthy machine for routine tasks -- in the wake of 500-600+ Mhz VGA 'powerhouses' which really haven't been all that much of a quantum leap over those older QVGA machines. HP never saw the potential in the h4xxx series three years ago and still don't get it now when they release like-a-looks like the neutered rx1950.

Perhaps PPC makers should take a cue from the videogame console industry -- get the hardware into as many hands as possible, even to the point of taking a loss and then make your money with software (and in this case OS upgrades, but imagine if some of the really good 3rd party software was sold under the HP banner?). We would have gladly shelled out for WM2003SE and then some.When we started the petition for a wm2003se upgrade for our 'old' ipaqs, and HP reacted negatively, shutting down it's own devoted users forum, we predicted this same trickle down effect. But some thought we were only the 'minority' power users. Fact is many bought HP at higher prices than the competition because of the compaq customer service track record especially for upgrades. Take that away and they have to compete with other OEMs on a level playing field. The results have proved they are not good at that so the bell tolls for HP.

Now I buy 'wisely' and pay for what I get. I bought the Toshiba E800 intead of the HP hx4700 because it was far cheaper and better value for money. Even if HP focuses on converged devices, they will certainly price themselves out of the market.