Sony Go For Broke: ANOTHER Proprietary Memory Stick 'Standard'

[Jonathon Watkins]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.engadget.com/2006/02/06/sonys-memory-stick-micro-to-debut-in-march' target='_blank'>http://www.engadget.com/2006/02/06/...-debut-in-march</a><br /><br /></div><i>"We were hoping it was just a bad dream when we heard last year that Sony was launching yet another version of the Memory Stick. But it looks like the company was serious about it, and you can soon begin adding Memory Stick Micro (aka M2) cards to your collection of Sony-specific media. . . [C]hances are good that if you pick up any Sony Ericsson phone announced from now on . . .you'll have no choice but to go with M2 if you want to add storage. And chances are even better that you'll never see it used in any other manufacturer's products."</i><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/2003/Sony.jpg" /> <br /><br />'Nuff said?

[Eugenia]

Fully agreed. I wish everyone was going with the normal SD cards interface. They are not huge, and they can go up to 8 GBs. I think the SD format has the best compromise between size and storage capacity.

Instead, we now have over 25 flash storage formats, and this is simply making the life of everyday folks, difficult.

[Clinton Fitch]

8O

Will they ever learn?

[heov]

Fully agreed. I wish everyone was going with the normal SD cards interface. They are not huge, and they can go up to 8 GBs. I think the SD format has the best compromise between size and storage capacity.

Instead, we now have over 25 flash storage formats, and this is simply making the life of everyday folks, difficult.

SD cars are unfortunatly, slighty too big for ultra thin/portable phones.

I'm totally cool with 3 sizes. tiny (m2, transflash), mini (sd, ms duo), and larger (cf/ms pro). It makes sense.

but really, why is everyone blaming sony? in terms of the memory stick line, i think it's reasonable to add an ultra tiny card to the list (m2, duo, ms pro). So long as there are readily available adapters from smaller to big (which im sure there will be).

Sony makes so many cameras and camcorders and other consumer devices that it makes sense for them to develop their own memory format.

of course i'd wish the industry to standardize on one format, but it's just not gonna happen, and i'm not gonna blame sony for making their own for their own products. There was a time when MS prices were much higher, but now you can find comparably priced duo and sd 1gig cards.

what we need is an OPEN industry standard. If i'm not mistaken, Toshiba has the rights to SD, Sony to Memory Stick, and Panasonic to xD? 3 companies with their own formats.

[DaleReeck]

Well, no, it only makes sense for Sony to make their own proprietary standard because they are money grubbing. It makes no sense for the consumer though. What, is SD, MiniSD and MicroSD not good enough for Sony? There is absolutely no purpose in Sony making what amounts to exact copies of the SD standards other than to suck money from consumers in the form of accessories. We already have to buy their overpriced batteries and chargers for their cameras. But that isn't enough, Sony wants to make sure we buy every possible accessory from them and them alone.

[Phoenix]

...If i'm not mistaken, Toshiba has the rights to SD, Sony to Memory Stick, and Panasonic to xD? 3 companies with their own formats.

Close. Toshiba is xD, while Panasonic (or Matsu****a, its parent company) has the rights to SD.

[heov]

Well, no, it only makes sense for Sony to make their own proprietary standard because they are money grubbing. It makes no sense for the consumer though. What, is SD, MiniSD and MicroSD not good enough for Sony? There is absolutely no purpose in Sony making what amounts to exact copies of the SD standards other than to suck money from consumers in the form of accessories. We already have to buy their overpriced batteries and chargers for their cameras. But that isn't enough, Sony wants to make sure we buy every possible accessory from them and them alone.

Why should Sony pay royalties to Panasonic, when they can make their own format at a cheaper price, and make money off of each sale? You don't have to buy Sony products, if you don't want to ;)

Now normally I woudl agree- simply license out a format that's popular, if you're a small company. For example, kodak and cannon simply make cameras- they dont' need to make their own format.

But sony's market is HUGE. from tv's, cameras, camcorders, psp, phones, stereos, music players, etc. I really don't understand why so many ppl hate sony for making the memorystick.

again, i can understand why consumers (like my self) would want one, universal memory standard, but I'm not gonna blame Sony anymore than Panasonic or Toshiba for having their own standard, either.

as for "copying," i dont' really want to get in to that. I don't consider making a smaller memory format "copying," regardless of whether another company came out with it first.

[Kacey Green]

This is why Sony products are always last on my list to consider for my personal products. The only reasons T-Rex is a Sony Ericsson are price and features (that and I don't like Nokia the only other viable option at the time of my purchase)

[pocketpcadmirer]

This is why Sony products are always last on my list to consider for my personal products.

I too agree with you. 1.5 year ago, I'd a Sony Ericsson P910i,which made me bought the properitory ms duo pro format. It was $20 more expensive than the same capacity SD format. Why sony, why ? Why cant they just settle on one format ? I think they should FINALLY settle on ms duo pro format. Its small,fast and cheerful enough to make way for most of their devices

BTW, nice background picture Jonathon

Sunny :)

[gibson042]

A note about Secure Digital (which I am an unabashed supporter of, despite the redundancy of miniSD and microSD):

The SDA is a standards organization, started by Matsu****a/Panasonic, SanDisk, and Toshiba (http://www.sdcard.org/sd_association/index.html) but now comprising 915 members (http://www.sdcard.org/Companies.aspx). Canon, Kodak, HP, Motorola, NEC, Nokia, and Samsung all sit on the board; executive members include the likes of Broadcom, Hitachi, Hynix, Microsoft, TI, and Nintendo.

The number and diversity (ranging continously from pure hardware to pure software and from pure B2B to pure B2C) of companies that support SD give it great leverage over Sony's proprietary formats, as do its straightforward variations and longstanding support for I/O. In my opinion, Memory Stick is far inferior and wouldn't have a leg to stand on if not for Sony's market breadth. But even if you don't go that far, you must admit that a reasonable person can definitely find fault with the Memory Stick format(s).

P.S. Could someone please explain to me the difference between the Memory Sticks? I have no idea what the MagicGate, PRO, Duo, or PRO Duo designations mean. :eek:

[gibson042]

BTW, nice background picture Jonathon

Much agreed. I like to try guessing the editor of a post by its pictures (if any) and its text. I thought for sure this would be one of Ed's! (and that's a compliment).

[pocketpcadmirer]

BTW, nice background picture Jonathon

Much agreed. I like to try guessing the editor of a post by its pictures (if any) and its text. I thought for sure this would be one of Ed's! (and that's a compliment).

Cool !! But, you misunderstood me. I actually meant the lady in the picture, who looks horified by the new sony format. See the main post please

Sunny

[gibson042]

This one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scream), right? :wink:

[Jonathon Watkins]

but really, why is everyone blaming sony?.

Because they deserve it. :) Just look at their history. They have just about *always* taken the propitiatory route over industry standards and tried to lock their customers into their own (more expansive) formats.

in terms of the memory stick line, i think it's reasonable to add an ultra tiny card to the list (m2, duo, ms pro). So long as there are readily available adapters from smaller to big (which im sure there will be)..

We already have MiniSD and (shudder) MicroSD (as well as a few other disposable tiny formats). We Don't Need another one. Do you *really* want a 257-in-1 card reader.....?

Sony makes so many cameras and camcorders and other consumer devices that it makes sense for them to develop their own memory format..

NO! They could standardise on SD or MiniSD, like may others are doing. The benefit to the customer of a new Sony format is....... what?????

of course i'd wish the industry to standardise on one format, but it's just not gonna happen.

It COULD happen. Especially if people stop buying Sony products.

i'm not gonna blame sony for making their own for their own products. There was a time when MS prices were much higher, but now you can find comparably priced duo and sd 1gig cards..

Their own products (cameras, laptops), fine. But there is definite blame when they chunder out another memory stick format when there already are better ones out there.

If i'm not mistaken, Toshiba has the rights to SD, Sony to Memory Stick, and Panasonic to xD? 3 companies with their own formats.

You are mistaken. :) Tosh do not own SD. It is an open consortium

[iant54]

Suppose that some people have forgotten Betamax?

[mpaque]

This is why Sony products are always last on my list to consider for my personal products.

Actually I think they may not even be on the list for me.


Suppose that some people have forgotten Betamax?

Or SACD? How about Bluray?

[MG]

chunder

Heh, heh, He said "chunder".....

MG :)

[SRALPH]

Everyone gets so excited about Sony and their new memory formats here. Sony have never gone to market with a Windows based PDA or Smartphone, correct? I really don't see how this announcement impacts anyone with a Windows mobile device, other than needing a different format if you use a Sony camera or phone.

Economics will drive which formats survive. Sony would have learned from Betamax. It takes considerable resources to produce, distribute and market a different format. If people weren't buying their products which use their format it would never be viable for them to go to market with it.

Clearly they have done the business case and determined that having a proprietary format for their consumer electronics outweighs the opportunity cost of lost hardware sales + royalty costs on another format.

Similar arguments could be made about having standard battery formats for cameras and camcorders, USB vs Firewire, all the formats of CD's DVD,s etc. Chalk this one up as "I don't use it, so why do I care"

[Jason Dunn]

what we need is an OPEN industry standard. If i'm not mistaken, Toshiba has the rights to SD, Sony to Memory Stick, and Panasonic to xD? 3 companies with their own formats.

MMC cards are an open, non-royalty based standard. But they seem to have always lagged behind in capacity.

[jlp]

Fully agreed. I wish everyone was going with the normal SD cards interface. They are not huge, and they can go up to 8 GBs. I think the SD format has the best compromise between size and storage capacity.

....

Do you mean SD's current top capacity is 8 GB or that SD's technology limit is 8 GB?

From my own investigation, it's neither.

SD's current top capacity is 4 GB (but that could change any day including the past few days :D) and a while back I saw a roadmap at the official SDA (SD Association) site with a graph clearly showing capacities up to 32 GB. HOWEVER 32 GB might even NOT be a technology limit, just a number given for the 5 or so years ahead!!

[jlp]

...

SD cars are unfortunatly, slighty too big for ultra thin/portable phones.

May I ask you how you come up with this conclusion?

At only a tiny 2.1 mm thick, it would fit into EVERY cell phone produced today, INCLUDING Moto's latest thin ones; they only would need to reroute electronics around it and make it a couple mm longer and/or wider, something NOBODY would even notice bare with measuring instruments or extreme careful observation :!:

An SD slot with rails and connectors is approximately 2.5 ccm, i.e. a tiny fraction of today's cell phones, even a tinier fraction of a PDA.

Look at the Moto MPx-200 it had a standard SD slot, while the MPx-220 that features a sub-standard miniSD one is not a tiny bit smaller.

...

Sony makes so many cameras and camcorders and other consumer devices that it makes sense for them to develop their own memory format.

This way of thinking is a two (three? :lol:) edge sword:
- it locks Sony consumers into their brands,
- BUT it locks others OUT as well
- PLUS it makes people hesitate and even totally rule out (as we've read further upwards) the choice to buy devices/accessories that are NOT compatible with their own multi-hundred dollars investments in devices and accessories.

That is, who would buy a VASTLY inferior expansion format in EVERY way, that is more difficult to find, with MUCH lower capacities and up to TWICE as expensive?!

AND who would buy a Sorry product whose memory card won't fit into your PDA, MP3 player, digicam, moviecam, multimedia player, radio/cassette/CD player, portable game player, voice recorder, electronic keyboard, TV, DVD recorder, card reader*, etc.

I used to be an avid Sorry fan, but ever since they launched their doomed and ill-thought, VERY BADLY engineered, numerous and INCOMPATIBLE MemorySTINK (and MD, and ATRAC) formats I quit altogether!!!

AND I WILL NEVER LOOK BACK, SORRY !!! 0X


*=Who needs an ALL-in-one card reader when a tiny, memory key sized SD USB card reader is so small and so versatile; and who needs memory keys in the first place when this reader and an SD card are 10 times more versatile than those keys?? 8) Ever tried to put 4 USB keys into your wallet? I can put 4 and even more SD cards in mine without any noticeable difference in thickness.

.

[jlp]

Well, no, it only makes sense for Sony to make their own proprietary standard because they are money grubbing. It makes no sense for the consumer though. What, is SD, MiniSD and MicroSD not good enough for Sony? There is absolutely no purpose in Sony making what amounts to exact copies of the SD standards other than to suck money from consumers in the form of accessories. We already have to buy their overpriced batteries and chargers for their cameras. But that isn't enough, Sony wants to make sure we buy every possible accessory from them and them alone.

Why should Sony pay royalties to Panasonic, when they can make their own format at a cheaper price, and make money off of each sale? You don't have to buy Sony products, if you don't want to ;)
...

Sorry DOES pay royalties to different companies including Philips (for the CD brand name) and most certainly many other patents and copyrights.

And as explained just above using their VASTLY inferior, too numerous and incompatible formats locks MANY people OUT of the Sorry products and accessories.

[jlp]

...

P.S. Could someone please explain to me the difference between the Memory Sticks? I have no idea what the MagicGate, PRO, Duo, or PRO Duo designations mean. :eek:

I feel this is going to be a long post...

First of all there are 8-10 different and mostly incompatible MemorySICK formats.

MemorySTING was the first one (mauve colored cards). Because of aweful engineering there was a technology limit of 128 MB.

They sort of went around this limit with the MemorySINK Select cards that included 2 separated memory banks into a standard MemorySINK body; you had to shut off the device, remove the card and action a small switch to route the data transfer from/to one bank or the other (and of course put it back, turn on the device, activate some settings, etc. chances are you lost a few great shots in the while).

MagicHATE is Sorry's technology to control music, (aka Digital Restrictions Madness). ALL of Sorry's MP3 players that include a memory card slot have such technology. You can NOT use a standard (mauve colored) stick instead; MagicHATE cards were white; needless to say those cards were much more expensive.

Despite their promise to market a format that would be universal, they launched the reduced size MemorySH!T Duo format at about the time of the SorryEricsson P800 smartphone.

It is only due to the precious help of Sandisk engineers that they could launched yet another (but mostly incompatible) format the MemorySTINK Pro (and therefore the smaller MemorySICK Pro Duo as well) to overcome the 128 MB technology limit.

All the Pro cards include the MagicHATE technology whose logo appears on the cards too.

And now they have the MemorySINK Micro format because they think people need or want smaller cards.

As I explained before, cards smaller than standard SD ones are NOT required or needed; on the contrary they induce unsolvable compatibility, capacity, availability and speed, etc. problems. 0X

[jlp]

what we need is an OPEN industry standard. If i'm not mistaken, Toshiba has the rights to SD, Sony to Memory Stick, and Panasonic to xD? 3 companies with their own formats.

MMC cards are an open, non-royalty based standard. But they seem to have always lagged behind in capacity.

... obviously due to a body that's 1/3 thinner: 1.4 mm vs 2.1. Plus if you consider that most obviously the top and bottom walls are of the same thickness you have less than a third of the space less inside, probably close to half the volume; and less volume means less chip count that fits inside.

[KieronE]

I've just this minute canned my Orange m500 - I can't stand it any longer. I turned it on and, yet again, it thought it was running the password application but the screen still showed the orange app - a reset is required. I like that it took an SD card and that it only cost £40 for 1/2 a Gig - but as a phone it's rubbish. Even after the "hard reset / soft reset" trick to get some free memory from it.

So I'm back with my SE P910 which is proprietory - but at least it works. Always. Every time. No problem. No faffing with "run time vs storage".

I'll give windows another go in five years as nothing I've seen or heard about the latest mobile edition inspires faith.

regards,

Kieron.

[beq]

Can anyone tell me if there is (or will ever be) an adapter for:

1) microSD to miniSD?

2) microSD to MS, or miniSD to MS?

3) microSD to MS Duo, or miniSD to MS Duo?

4) microSD to MS Micro (aka M2)?

It'd be helpful to see a side-by-side photo of all of these cards together...

[pocketpcadmirer]

This one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scream), right? :wink:

Hey !! Thanks for the link. Yes, you got it right

Sunny :)

[davea0511]

Bwaaaahaaaaahaaaahaahaahaa!

I don't know whats funnier - Sony's insistence to screw over a loyal customer base, or the loyal customer base who keeps coming back for more.

Head on over to www.pricewatch.com and look at the price of memory stick vs SD format. The low end stuff seems comparable, but then look at the high capacity stuff. Memory Stick is 25% more expensive

The clincher isn't so much in the higher prices but rather in the fact that non-proprietary formats come in much much higher speeds. And when it comes to solid state storage speed is my #1 concern. The fastest memory sticks are 60 X ("duo high speed"), but most of the high capacity SD units are 150 X. That 2.5 times faster.

BetaMax, miniDisks, Atrac, non-standard MPEG, Blu-ray, digital8, Clie (proprietary PalmOS), Sony-BMG Audio Disc (they are NOT CDs), rootkits... all Sony spawn.

[Kurt Hunciker]

I stopped considering Sony products (cameras and other devices) years ago because of their proprietary memory card format. I would never buy a product that requires me to buy additional memory cards that are incomptible with my other devices.

For example, I often take pictures in my Canon S400,and then put the memory card from the camera in my Dell Axim to display the pictures on a large screen. I could not do using a Sony Camera with any Pocket PC.

I believe that, recently, Canon surpassed Sony in sales of digital cameras. This is undoubtedly due in part, to the market having the same reaction to proprietary formats that I have. Sony may be making more money per memory card by "sticking" to its Memory Stick format, but it appears they are losing the overall sales war.

[PPCDeveloper]

I guess their CEO is pretty new, he is from England, the first non-Japanese CEO. He is known to be a guy that can cut the labor force without looking like a butcher.

Anyway, the whole point was, how is he going to turn Sony around. I think it was Leslie Stahl, she kept talking about the iPod, how it killed Sony, they had a similar device but wouldn't/couldn't release it, fearing their music division would suffer. I kept screaming, Leslie, ask him about their stupid proprietary hardware thing, the Betamax, Memory stick, etc... I think that is killing them more than the iPod, but it is probably hard to guage the impact, with a company as large as that. I don't think sony believes that it is a problem at all, and their stock will continue to tumble. They may even let the xBox surpass the Playstation, that would be a tradgedy...

[Jonathon Watkins]

They may even let the xBox surpass the Playstation, that would be a tradgedy...

Who for?....... :wink: I like the sound of a gentler, humbler Sony who stop their propriety ways and get back to making great hardware. But, they still have far to go to get there.