Off to the MVP Summit

[Jason Dunn]

<img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/2003/MVP_Horizontal_FullColor132.jpg" /><br /><br />Today I leave for the MVP Summit, along with Ed and Janak. We'll have several days of meetings, product briefing sessions, and opportunities for feedback with the people who make decisions about where Windows Mobile is headed. Normally I'd be asking the community for feedback on the things they'd like me to bring up, but I'm not going to do that this year: I still have my list from last year, and a list that I keep updating myself...and none of the issues have been addressed in Windows Mobile 5. :? So I'll bring up the same issues and hope this year, unlike all the others, someone will understand that they really are important. ;-) What I would be interested in hearing are Windows Mobile 5-specific issues that don't exist on earlier versions of Windows Mobile. That would at least give me something new to talk about. :lol:<br /><br />Darius, Jon, Ekkie, and Jonathon will be holding down the fort here - be nice to them! ;-)

[OSUKid7]

It's been a year already?! Have a great time guys, and of course feel free to give us a few hints of what goes on behind the scenes. :D

[dazz]

Have a great time at the Summit guys!!

[JonnoB]

I hope you guys come away with a few treats... maybe a free Wizard so that we can see more reviews.

[Janak Parekh]

It's been a year already?! Have a great time guys, and of course feel free to give us a few hints of what goes on behind the scenes. :D
A year-and-a-half actually -- it was in April last year.

I hope you guys come away with a few treats... maybe a free Wizard so that we can see more reviews.
Ha. I wish. :P

Nevertheless, hopefully we'll have some good feedback and information sessions. We'll be sure to keep you posted on the things we're allowed to keep you posted (which, admittedly, may not be that much; time will tell).

--janak

[OSUKid7]

It's been a year already?! Have a great time guys, and of course feel free to give us a few hints of what goes on behind the scenes. :D
A year-and-a-half actually -- it was in April last year.
Ah really? Seems like you guys just asked for ideas to take to the summit. I've been here too long. :lol:

[Duncan]

Forgive my cynicism - but doesn't it ever seem... well... a bit pointless?

The WM team seem like nice guys - and WM isn't a bad product by any means - but time and time again they are told, by active users, some pretty basic things that need fixing. Yet - it never seems to make a difference.

[Paragon]

What I would be interested in hearing are Windows Mobile 5-specific issues that don't exist on earlier versions of Windows Mobile. That would at least give me something new to talk about. :lol:


Ok here you go:

1) Where/when is the A2DP Bluetooth profile in the MS Bluetooth stack?

2) Where/when will WiFi be added BACK into Activesync?

3) Is there an update to Voice Command coming that actually works with Bluetooth?

4) Why doesn't the little "x" work....or has that been asked before. ;)

Have fun!

Dave

[IpaqMan2]

Jason,
Maybe you've already shared your list with everyone before here in the past.. but could you share your list of things that are important from last year that weren't addressed? Just interesting to know where other people with influence feel the platform should be heading in.

[Paragon]

Jason,
Maybe you've already shared your list with everyone before here in the past.. but could you share your list of things that are important from last year that weren't addressed? Just interesting to know where other people with influence feel the platform should be heading in.

I don't think the Thoughts server can handle it. ;)

dave

[Jason Dunn]

Forgive my cynicism - but doesn't it ever seem... well... a bit pointless?

Sometimes, yes, I do get frustrated at the lack of impact my feedback has - but I view my role as an MVP to be the advocate for everyone here at Pocket PC Thoughts, and as such I have to keep plugging away and trying to make the platform that I love better - even if it takes many years. ;-)

[BevHoward]

>> Sometimes, yes, I do get frustrated at the lack of impact my feedback has... &lt;&lt;

Standing up for users' needs for multiple years can begin to get one feeling like a pariah.

I salute Jason and the others who are going back into battle for another year... MVP's are not the enemy, but that doesn't stop people in Redmond from flinching when they are face to face with us.

I simply couldn't face the summit this year... way too old I guess.

Beverly Howard [MS MVP-Mobile Devices]

[Wes Salmon]

Hey I won't be flinching at MVP's. :P I'll be at at least two MVP functions tomorrow and Friday to take a beating. :)

[BevHoward]

>> to take a beating &lt;&lt;

That's my point... the advesarial assumption.

Have yet to have an encounter about wm user problems without the ms side being seriously on the defensive.

Listen to the mvp's... they are trying to get problems addressed, not complain about them... that's what the users do.

Sincerely,
Beverly Howard (aka, Burnt Toast)

[adamz]

Well, Windows Media Player 10.1 doesn't have full one-handed-usage capabilities like the other apps. You can't go "Back" in the library view. The left/right directional buttons should let you navigate the Media Library.

Exchange syncing doesn't sync Draft email folders.

[Wes Salmon]

>> to take a beating &lt;&lt;

That's my point... the advesarial assumption.

Have yet to have an encounter about wm user problems without the ms side being seriously on the defensive.

Bev you seem to have missed my :) in my original comment. I am not at all expecting an adversarial encounter with MVP's. I've known many of them even before I worked at Microsoft and value their ideas and input greatly. I say "take a beating" because I am all too aware of how things are perceived on both sides of the equation. I know what it’s like to be a dedicated enthusiast who wants to see improvement in certain areas of the product. I also now know what it takes to build this software as part of the product team and I see the complexity of doing everything for every user each release.

Besides, Jason and Ed don't need an MVP summit to beat up on me, they can just give me the what for over IM (as they have in the past and I hope they continue to do in the future. :))

[whydidnt]

Well, first off the, as mentioned previously, the ability to Wi-Fi active sync to PC's. Then while we are talking about Active Sync, how about giving us back the ability to filter based upon categories, especially within the contacts app.

Jason, maybe you could get an explanation of what WM5 is doing with all of our RAM? Seems after a fresh boot of WM2003SE most devices would be using 10-13 MB's of RAM. On WM5, it's more like a whopping 36 MB of RAM (including the hidden 16 MB). That's three times as much RAM.

TrueVGA support within the bundled apps - oops that's an old one, but still exists and makes no sense to me.

Back to WM5 - why does Active Sync feel the need to start itself up all the time, even when I'm not syncing? It is literally ALWAYS running on my device. There appears to be a bug that prevents registry changes from being saved if your reset using the reset button.

Enjoy your time at the Summit! :D

[BevHoward]

>> missed my Smile in my original comment &lt;&lt;

I hear you, but, remember, "In humor, there is truth." ;-)

...and that's why the "beat up" in your message popped out to me. In additon, during the two summits I have attended, the huge amount of "humorous" references to ms guys being targets of mvp attacks paints a pretty clear picture of a general perception at Redmond.

We know that a lot of work has been done there to turn that perception around, but, watching body language and subtle voice cues tells me that there is still a long way to go.

We always hope what we say is heard, but, from this side, when nothing get's fixed for years (case in point, activesync) we have to assume that we are not being heard, or, if being heard, that the perceived value of our content is pretty low.

We are _not_ the enemy ;-)

[Phillip Dyson]

Then while we are talking about Active Sync, how about giving us back the ability to filter based upon categories, especially within the contacts app.


Don't just give us back what was there. Give us real two-way filtering on all PIM data. Then I can dump the wretched Intellisync.

Here's an idea. The MVPs should get together and author a Windows Mobile manifesto. The publish it for all to see. Then we can track its progress.

Or how about this, perhaps the MVPs should take a congressional approach, where changes get MVP sponsors that champion them. Then certain WM modifications get a focus voice instead of single voices coming from different directions.

Bah! I must be letting my imagination runaway again. :D

[BevHoward]

imho, when the mvp's are talking to ms as a group, they are pretty dammed focused and everyone is on the same page.

[revolution.cx]

Most Valuable Jason-san:

Since there isn't a thread for this on ST: for us developers, could you ask them when they are going to get serious about marketing and branding the Smartphone? We're dying here while Microsoft lets the platform die on the market.

Musicphones are the next big thing and Microsoft is and has been over 1 year ahead of the competition. It's just dumb luck that the ROKR wasn't any better or that Apple didn't grow the Nano into a phone. Though that's where they are clearly headed.

People know the brands iPod, iTunes and now, thanks to Madonna et. al., the ROKR.

Microsoft offers: "Cingular (formerly ATT) Audiovox SMT5600 with optional miniSD card connected to Windows Media Player's Plays For Sure thingy".

You can't even make an acronym out of that!

OK, flame off.

I'd give them points for getting the Treo but somehow I think Palm was the one who came a'calling.

Thanks!

[Phillip Dyson]

imho, when the mvp's are talking to ms as a group, they are pretty dammed focused and everyone is on the same page.

Re-read my post. I don't want it to seem like I'm putting down the MVP's. Just suggesting other strategies. As crazy as they may be. :wink:

[Scott R]

Some of these may be PPC-6700-specific, others may be a matter of opinion, but there are also some definite WM5 bugs in here that someone needs to work on ASAP:
http://pdaphonehome.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&amp;threadid=56302

[Phillip Dyson]

On a serious note...

I can't help but ask the question.
Why hasn't anything on your list been addressed? Not to make either "side" out to be the enemy.

But with the time and effort that the MVPs and MS Engineers put into this cooperative relationship, do you feel that the results are significant?

I can understand (begrudingly) things like the "close button" issue not being changed. Thats a difference in philosophy between the MVPs and MS.

Is it that there is not time to make the suggested changes? Would making these changes be a fundamental change to the OS, thereby too risky?

Something like really category filtering on PIM synchronization (near and dear to my heart). Why is this not added?

It seems that upgrade after upgrade we're left with that Super Bowl consolation statement. "Oh well, maybe next year." Which often means a new OS and the need for a new device.

[Paragon]

On a serious note...

I can't help but ask the question.
Why hasn't anything on your list been addressed? Not to make either "side" out to be the enemy.

But with the time and effort that the MVPs and MS Engineers put into this cooperative relationship, do you feel that the results are significant?

I can understand (begrudingly) things like the "close button" issue not being changed. Thats a difference in philosophy between the MVPs and MS.

Is it that there is not time to make the suggested changes? Would making these changes be a fundamental change to the OS, thereby too risky?

sojourner753,

In my short stint as an MVP I very much got the feeling that the MVP program was to thank MVPs for all the work they had done for their respective categories over the year, to give them a small taste of what is to come, to then send them out to promote their catagories again.

I don't want that to come across as they are being used at all. There are lots of benifits to both sides. I just never saw feedback as being a key issue that Microsoft looks for from the average MVP...its more feedout.

There are plenty of MVPs with much longer relationships, that may have a better, more informed view, but that is the way I saw it.

Dave

[Phillip Dyson]

Thanks Dave,

That makes sense to me. I guess that my impression of what the MVP relationship was something else. Thats not to say that theres anything wrong with how it stands today.

People like Jason have made a great contribution to the Windows Mobile community and if its all about recognition for their contributions, then thats okay too.

[Paragon]

Thanks Dave,

That makes sense to me. I guess that my impression of what the MVP relationship was something else. Thats not to say that theres anything wrong with how it stands today.

People like Jason have made a great contribution to the Windows Mobile community and if its all about recognition for their contributions, then thats okay too.

Yup, you're right....and I think there are a few select one's like Jason, and Ed who take it a step further and maybe push harder for changes, or get more involved. Again others may be able to answer this better, but I think the program is setup that if you are one who wishes to have more input, doors are maybe opened a little easier. Don't get me wrong...there are things in place for feedback, it just doesn't seem like a primary function of the program.

Dave

[jlp]

...

I can understand (begrudingly) things like the "close button" issue not being changed. Thats a difference in philosophy between the MVPs and MS.

...

Allow me to rephrase that more realistically:
"That's a difference in philosophy between all the real life everay day users vs. stubborn engineers."

[BevHoward]

>> ReRead my post &lt;&lt;
>> Feedback vs Feedout &lt;&lt;

The "Feedout" comment says a lot... wasn't putting down your suggestion as much as trying to verbalize what Dave put so clearly into a single word.

I (naively) entered the mvp program with high hopes of getting feedback put into the system and pretty much came to the same conclusion that ms' perception of the program was "thanks for the support, and how about this neat new feature..." ;-)

As for a manifesto, it's a great idea, but, again, it's based on the assumption that ms will be responsive to concentrated input. There's actually a current, exteremely high pressure input to ms going on with the palm/wm announcement... palm is pushing for the inclusion of some palm features that have been missing... I'll be watching closely to see how many get implimented ;-)

[Phillip Dyson]

As for a manifesto, it's a great idea, but, again, it's based on the assumption that ms will be responsive to concentrated input.

I guess I don't expect anyone but big players (like Palm Inc) to force (or nudge) Microsoft's hand. But publishing something like a manifesto would let consumers and average Joes know what the MVPs are requesting. Then perhaps we can join with them in expressing either our support or disagreement. Then perhaps we could track the progress.

Come to think of it a "manifesto" seems like a revolution. :wink:
And there is a possibility that a move like this could create static between the MVPs and Microsoft.

{sigh} Obviously its not as simple as I make it sound. Perhaps I'm just being an armchair MVP :wink:

If there's one thing thats always burning CPU cycles its my imagination.

[Darius Wey]

Allow me to rephrase that more realistically:
"That's a difference in philosophy between all the real life everay day users vs. stubborn engineers."

I wouldn't go so far as to saying they are stubborn engineers. From my experiences at MEDC this year, the Windows Mobile developers are very open to feedback and not in a single case did I feel shrugged off when I spread my two cents here and there. I'm sure, as a development team, they want to sustain and improve a product, but none of that is going to happen at the flick of a switch. Adding or removing a feature takes time - and if you look at the way Windows has developed over the past few years, you'll come to realise that it's no different for Windows Mobile.

Of course, I can't comment on whether the MVP feedback system is any different, but I'm quite confident the developers are just as open to feedback whether you're an MVP or not.

[Phillip Dyson]

Allow me to rephrase that more realistically:
"That's a difference in philosophy between all the real life everay day users vs. stubborn engineers."

I wouldn't go so far as to saying they are stubborn engineers.

I agree Darius. I may not agree with the decision, but the fact that there's logical explanation makes it easier for me to accept.

[ctmagnus]

Slightly ot:

Re: features not being implemented, I can somewhat see where the developers/designers are coming from. The Smartphone line and Pocket PC line are "supposedly" going to merge at some point in the future. Today, I went for a walk and took only my Smartphone as technological accompaniment. Just before I headed out the door, I fired up CityTime Alarms on it, started a timer, and held the end call button. Rather than CityTime Alarms shutting down, as would be the case if the close button actually acted like a close button on the Windows Mobile platform, the phone went back to the Today screen and the buttons locked themselves. When I got home, I unlocked the phone and pressed the back button, and I was back where I wanted to be in CityTime Alarms.

Give it a few generations, but as Smartphones and Pocket PCs get closer together, I predict that this is the kind of functionality we will see out of them. It's not so apparent on the Pocket PC side of things at this point (it has no back button, for one thing) but it likely will be.

[Ed Hansberry]

I think there are a few misconceptions about what an MVP is. What we are not is:
1) official beta testers - though MS often gives us the opportunity to do so as we are already under NDA and are easy to work with.
2) UI/functionality feedback groups
3) Actual positions. Being an MVP is being the recipient of an award, not a position or role.

What an MVP is: MVPs are credible, technology experts from around the world who inspire others to learn and grow through active technical community participation. (http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/MVPINTRO)

So, all that said, the summit is a time for MS to bring us all in, show us some roadmaps at product level and even at the company level, under NDA, as to where things are going. We do get face time with developers in our area we got the award for and there is dialog. They do listen to us, but honestly, they aren't stupid. There is very little we could ever tell them that they haven't already hit on themselves in their own discovery process when it comes to device design, or that they didn't already know was broken but haven't fixed because on the list of things to fix/improve, it just doesn't make the cut. They don't have the "X" close apps for a reason. What that is I cannot fathom (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=13460) but the answer certianly isn't "Huh... I never thought of that" or "whoops! I meant to call the EXIT API and accidentally called the "SEND_TO_BACKGROUND one. Silly me."

And truth be told, if Microsoft wanted to kill Windows Mobile, the fastest way to do that would be to take every suggestion by an MVP and implement it. It would be the most aweful conglomeration of buttons, settings, secret features and geek junk that would make Connection manager look like the simplest thing in the world.

Still, I took the opportunity to beat up on Wes tonight. :wink:

[chasmanor]

Are you guys going to do a podcast while you are there? You can let us know what is happening - if you have time!

[jlp]

Allow me to rephrase that more realistically:
"That's a difference in philosophy between all the real life everay day users vs. stubborn engineers."

I wouldn't go so far as to saying they are stubborn engineers.

I agree Darius. I may not agree with the decision, but the fact that there's logical explanation makes it easier for me to accept.

Logical, you say? When a so called "logical" solution proves for S-I-X years to be H-I-G-H-L-Y__ I-N-E-F-F-I-C-I-E-N-T, NON stubborn people: 1) change it and 2) much sooner than that. Not only they didn't change it in SIX years, worst, it's still present in the newer incarnation of the OS.

They may not be stubborn in all things, but in this particular one they REALLY ARE.

[threedaysdwn]

I wish I'd attended more of the MVP events.

I had the great opportunity to host the MSN Search booth for a couple hours on Wednesday during the product expo. We ended up showing Desktop Search (my product) more than anything else since that's what the two of us knew and are interested in :)

I always enjoy meeting enthusiastic users and developers. I advocate strongly within my team for addressing user feedback. To be honest, I think this issue will vary greatly from one team to the next. And the reasons for that will vary as well.

[Janak Parekh]

Why hasn't anything on your list been addressed? Not to make either "side" out to be the enemy.
Actually, things have. Unfortunately I can't say which, or when. :( But there were some lighthearted moments during the in-depth sessions when the mobile team actually addressed individual MVPs and said "here you go!" ;)

As for feedback, we gave lots of it. It was clear from their reception that they took the feedback seriously, but you have to understand that they get lots of it, and they can only act on some of it given the amount of development time they have.

But with the time and effort that the MVPs and MS Engineers put into this cooperative relationship, do you feel that the results are significant?
Certainly not with past releases, like 2003 and SE. But if some of the stuff they showed us hold, I think it will be significant.

It seems that upgrade after upgrade we're left with that Super Bowl consolation statement. "Oh well, maybe next year." Which often means a new OS and the need for a new device.
Yeah, I know what you mean. :(

--janak

[Phillip Dyson]

Why hasn't anything on your list been addressed? Not to make either "side" out to be the enemy.
Actually, things have. Unfortunately I can't say which, or when. :( But there were some lighthearted moments during the in-depth sessions when the mobile team actually addressed individual MVPs and said "here you go!" ;)

{snip}

--janak

It seems strange that you can't mention them. Isn't the OS technically released? Granted I don't have the inside track like you do and I'm sure there is a logical explanation for you having to be discrete.

Perhaps the WM5.0 show isn't over? Could there be One more thing? 8O

[Darius Wey]

It seems strange that you can't mention them. Isn't the OS technically released? Granted I don't have the inside track like you do and I'm sure there is a logical explanation for you having to be discrete.

Perhaps the WM5.0 show isn't over? Could there be One more thing? 8O

I believe Janak is referring to future builds of Windows Mobile, not the current v5.0.

[Phillip Dyson]

It seems strange that you can't mention them. Isn't the OS technically released? Granted I don't have the inside track like you do and I'm sure there is a logical explanation for you having to be discrete.

Perhaps the WM5.0 show isn't over? Could there be One more thing? 8O

I believe Janak is referring to future builds of Windows Mobile, not the current v5.0.

{groan} So we'll have to wait another year?

Or, will they test out their new update model with a 5.1 straight to end users?

I know I'm fishing. I know I wont get any answers. But sometimes its fun to bait the hook.

[Janak Parekh]

{groan} So we'll have to wait another year?
One of the most rewarding, yet difficult aspects of being an MVP is finding out about future plans -- both because I can't tell you, and because I can't have it myself. :( There is stuff that is fixed post-WM5 in addition to what WM5 did. Then there's post-post-WM5. Again, I can't say anything, except I can say that MS has a long-term plan for Windows Mobile, and some of it is very, very cool.

--janak