The Palm Treo 700w - First Look At The Windows Mobile Treo

[Ed Hansberry]

<a href="http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000867059961/">http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000867059961/</a><br /><br />Engadget has their hands on a Palm Treo 700w, the name and model for the Windows Mobile Treo some of us have been salivating over for the last few months. :drool: <br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/hansberry/2005/20050922-wmtreo700w.jpg" /><br /><br /><i>"A few confirmed specs: Windows Mobile 5.0, one megapixel camera, EV-DO, Bluetooth, 64MB of memory, still trying to conclusively determine the resolution of the display, but it looks to our eyes like it’s 240 x 240 pixels, not 320 x 320. But we’re not 100% on that, ok?"</i><br /><br />There are a lot of images at the Engadget site.

[Darius Wey]

Heh, when two worlds collide. This is one of the most fantastic things I've seen all year. ;)

[johncruise]

I like this. Now, once and for all, people who love to make comparisons on those 2 OS -- Windows CE and Palm OS -- they will have a base of comparisons. No more whinning about 'no fair! that has a bigger memory' or 'this one has faster CPU' etc. WM Treo 700 vs POS Treo 700 :-) Nice eh? People will now have a very good data point to buy other future PDA with in mind that this or that OS is suitable for me because it does this "particular" (take note... not all) features better for "my" needs :-)

(sorry but whoaaa! I don't intend this to be a flame war bait)

Peace!

[KTamas]

240×240, geez, they never learn. This screen kills the device......the rest of the spec is nice though.

[IpaqMan2]

Wow.....

8O

This is going to shake up the Palm community..
But as for me.. I want one.

[jpaq]

So, my wife's contract with T-Mobile ends on October 24, 2005. Mine was up in April. I was planning to move to Verizon but want to keep our numbers and not have to pay 2 bills, hence the wait for her contract to expire.

So what are the chances of this becoming available by Oct. 24? PLEEEEEEAAAASSSEEEEE!!!!!
:roll:

No really holding my breath over here.

[Craig Horlacher]

Yeah, this is just my opionion, but for what it's worth...
They should do everyone a favor and scrap this! Release one with at least a 240x320 screen and save users and developers a lot of headaches.

[saru83]

its almost perfect execpt the fact for the external antenna :cry:

[surur]

http://surur.sytes.net/forum.jpg

Surur

[KTamas]

http://surur.sytes.net/forum.jpg

Surur
hehe, nice try. Work on the fonts and the lines :)

[Paragon]

Good one Surur! ;)

[Jason Dunn]

I know the 240 x 240 resolution kills this for a of people on this site, but this is MONUMENTAL for the Windows Mobile market. The word TREO has tremendous mindshare, and that's EXACTLY what Microsoft needed.

[surur]

hehe, nice try. Work on the fonts and the lines :)

Critics everywhere :D

I look forward to seeing it for real soon.

Surur

[PdaAddict]

I really hope its not 240 by 240. If it is i'am staying with my Treo-650 or switchig to HTC Athena (O2 Atom). I hope I-mate will sell it.

[Phillip Dyson]

I am concerned about the resolution. I admit that in a vaccuum 240x240 is okay for the average user, but if carriers sell the POS and WM side by side, then it can be a hindrance.

[Robb Bates]

What? No built-in WiFi? What a load of ...

240x240. That's no good either.

Nice try Palm... but try harder.

Robb

[Jonathan1]

240 x 240?? Ewwww. I hope they ARE wrong on that point.

[whydidnt]

I admit I have been lusting after a 650 for awhile. Even going so far as stopping at a Sprint Store to aquire one (I can add to my family account for $10/month) to play with, only to see they were out of stock -- I'm $400 richer today. :wink: Palm has done a fantastic job merging software and hardware - something we have yet to see on the WM platform.

However, I fear that A) because of MS desire to keep things at least somewhat standardized, they won't be able to perform the same miracle blend of sw/hw on WM5. and B) the 240 x 240 resolution screen ruins it. Seriously, even standard non-smartphones are being released with at 320 x 240 screen. they should have found a way to make it work. Even if it defaulted to a landscape view like the upcoming Q. I've tried using my PPC with the SIP open all the time to try and mirror this and am quite frankly it feels quite cramped. It will be most noticeable in the applications that this is targeted at - Email and WebBrowsing - more phone like, and less PPC like in my opinion.

[DarkHelmet]

What idiot convinced the PDA and phone industries to collide with the crappy digital camera industry?

Make a great phone. Or make a great PDA. If you must, make a really great PDA with a phone in it.

But please, I beg you - don't cram in a crappy camera - or even a great camera into a phone, for these reasons:

1 - Most of us who can afford the modern marvels can't use them at work because of security issues.

2 - Unlike the morons who buy these things, most of us do not have a need to take pictures ALL the time.

3 - Buying something like this shows everyone that you have more money than brains. Go ahead, take a minute - you'll figure it out.

4 - The only way you could make this device better would be to make the case from platinum, encrust it with rubies, emeralds, sapphires, and diamonds - and then have a sports star -or- some gangsta rapper -or- some famous meth head endorse it.

The best way to prevent this kind of abomination is to leave it in the store.

[Birdman]

Full push email a la Blackberry? Please, please.

Rogers? Are you listening?

[whydidnt]

DarkHelmet,

Perhaps you could define "Most of us". Seems to me if "most of us" buy a phone with a camera in it, "most of us" would prefer that, not the other way around.

I personally prefer that the manufacturers give us an option as we have seen in past Treos - the same device, offered either with or without the camera. I understand that some people aren't allowed to use a camera in the work place, but that doesn't mean cameras should be banned from all converged devices. There are still more places where cameras are allowed than not.

However, I suggest you try looking at the world from a perspective other than your own - most of us have a different opinion and don't feel the need to insult others because they either do or don't like specific device. I much prefer a legitimate debate regarding it's features/useability and the like.

[felixdd]

I'll play the role of the inevitable naysayer.

That's so obviously a photoshop! And Engadget got a Treo 650 with a modified faceplate and a program that overlays on top of PalmOS! This is fake!!11!!!1

:roll:

[Ed Hansberry]

I'll play the role of the inevitable naysayer.

That's so obviously a photoshop! And Engadget got a Treo 650 with a modified faceplate and a program that overlays on top of PalmOS! This is fake!!11!!!1
Jeff....??? :wink:

[Tim Rapson]

I can't believe the anguish over the 240 by 240 resolution. The pixels on this Treo WinMob screen are going to be just the same size as those on most QVGA screened phones. They have just chopped the bottom 1/3 off for the keyboard. What you have left is a SSSS (Stupid, Small, Square, Screen) that is just as crisp or more crisp than that on the QVGA PDA you have in your hand right now.
The Engadget reviewer even says that he can't tell for sure if it is 240 by 240 or 320 by 320. Now, I can tell the difference in those resolutions immediately, but those of you with QVGA models may notice the screen on this WinMob Treo is smaller, but it can't possibly be blockier than your standard PPCs.
I suggest you go to a store and see these and hold them up next to your current PDA before dismissing the screen. I personally would not want one, but I want a full screened PDA anyway. But, for those comparing this to a RAZR (I think the RAZR has 320 by 240) I don't think you will be able to tell much difference.

[MitchellO]

I would go for this device. Looks nice. Actually looked at a Treo 650 the other day (not to buy, just saw in a shop) and pics of it make it look much bigger.

My XDA Mini is awesome, but a builtin thumboard would be awesome. I can live with 240x240, as thats really all you get with the SIP displayed anyway.

[Janak Parekh]

Full push email a la Blackberry? Please, please.
Well, presumably it will support "real" push via the WM5 Messaging and Feature Pack. With Exchange Server at least. As for Blackberry Enterprise Server, it depends on if a RIM client will be available.

--janak

[Mitch D]

I'll play the role of the inevitable naysayer.

That's so obviously a photoshop! And Engadget got a Treo 650 with a modified faceplate and a program that overlays on top of PalmOS! This is fake!!11!!!1

:roll:


I guess time will tell, I personally believe it's a real device. Engadget has nothing to gain and everything to lose by cooking up a fake.

[TMann]

I can live with 240x240, as thats really all you get with the SIP displayed anyway.

I'm with MitchellO on this one. A 240 x 240 screen should be just fine. Remember that the Treo screen is a bit smaller (in physicial dimensions) than the standard QVGA screens that everyone is so used to. Those pixels will be packed in more tightly, making the screen seem sharper than you'd expect. (This was the case with the Treo 600 and 650, where the increased pixel density made the screen seem sharper than other Palms of comparable screen resolutions.)

The bigger issue that I'd be worried about is whether there will be significant software issues in dealing with the square screen, vs. the upright rectangular screen that we've had before. Hopefully, with the HP6500 series and the Treo 700w coming out soon, these problems with be dealt with by the various software vendors.

TMann

[MitchellO]

I can live with 240x240, as thats really all you get with the SIP displayed anyway.

I'm with MitchellO on this one. A 240 x 240 screen should be just fine. Remember that the Treo screen is a bit smaller (in physicial dimensions) than the standard QVGA screens that everyone is so used to. Those pixels will be packed in more tightly, making the screen seem sharper than you'd expect. (This was the case with the Treo 600 and 650, where the increased pixel density made the screen seem sharper than other Palms of comparable screen resolutions.)



I'm in the same situation with my XDA Mini. The screen looks HEAPS better than standard QVGA screens because of the increased density.



The bigger issue that I'd be worried about is whether there will be significant software issues in dealing with the square screen, vs. the upright rectangular screen that we've had before. Hopefully, with the HP6500 series and the Treo 700w coming out soon, these problems with be dealt with by the various software vendors.

This is my biggest issue with it too.

[Deus]

Sprint will be launching this device in January but I wonder how it will hold up against the HTC Apache / PPC-6700?

[whydidnt]

To be clear, my concern with the 240x240 screen has nothing to do with DPI and everthing to do with the missing 80 lines of pixels. Though I prefer the sharpness of my VGA device, or of a higher DPI screen, that isn't a deal breaker for me.

However, those 80 lines are really going to be missed while reading email or documents, browsing the web or even using GPS. My earlier point is that there are several smaller devices already that provide a 320x240 resolution screen and there is no physical reason Palm, HP or whoever can't make a device using that screen with a thumb board on the front that is still the same size as the current Treo. This in my opinion makes it a lousy decision to go square, since MS has decided to only support 240 x240 or goofy pixed doubled 480x480 resoultions for square screens.

For those who say this device is aimed at the mass market and not a power user, and the mass market doesn't care - I ask why has the 650 been so much more popular than the 600? Part of it has to do with the higher res screen. Also the mass market consumers are less likely to be able to deal with issues of non-compatible programs and will therefore will tell their friends the device is broken, unstable or doesn't work right, hurting the image of the device and the OS. We all know that ther are going to be many programs, especially games that will not work at this resolution. Games are probably one of the primary applications consumers will want to put on these devices.

[gibson042]

I've been thinking about the low resolution square screen. It will be an annoyance, but no more and no less. Here's why: as others have commented, a square screen gives about as much information as a 3:4 portrait screen with a normal SIP open... permanently. Many applications will suffer from the loss of real estate, particularly PIE and full screen games. But many more will be almost completely unaffected (especially with respect to functionality). And not just Office Mobile applications and Notes and Phone and Messaging... it's Contacts, Tasks, Calculator, Media Player, Pictures &amp; Video, Games, and Settings screens too; even the Today Screen and Calendar will be just fine for most. This is pretty much everything to a "normal" low-demand user, so they only thing they might complain about is PIE, except that this will probably be their first Windows Mobile PDA (and maybe even their first PDA altogether) so they will have nothing to compare it to.

Further, any annoyance these users do have with the low resolution square screen would not be resolved by a high resolution square screen, because they won't know to resize the fonts (which would give rougly the same amount of information per screen as QVGA). That, by the way, is why PPC enthusiast communities in general and PPCT in particular consider it such a failure to have the 240x240 screen instead of the 480x480; for us, it represents a real loss when compared to 240x320. Regardless, on to software compatibility issues. I think applications popular enough to appeal to the general user either have already been upgraded to support all resolutions, or will be by the time this is available. And even if they haven't, it was my understanding that WM5.0 automatically adds scrollbars to non-GAPI applications hard-coded to the wrong resolution (I would like someone to confirm or deny this, though).

This will be the first good test of Windows Mobile vs. Palm that I'm aware of. The Treo 650/700p (if it exists) has higher resolution, the 700w has a better OS. Which do you think will sell more?

P.S. If WM5.0 doesn't automatically add scrollbars, would it still be possible to "fix" a broken app by pulling up a SIP, (hopefully) forcing it up into the visible area?

[jngold_me]

Guys, there may be some else more disturbing than the screen res: Available ROM!

Over at Brighthand, I read the following sentence about the Treo:

This Treo will have 64 MB of storage.

I was also listening to Jeff Kirvin's 1src podcast and he mentioned (take it for what it's worth) that his "sources" have mentioned this also.

64mb of ROM will be the death knell of this device.

[DarkHelmet]

Full push email a la Blackberry? Please, please.

Rogers? Are you listening?

Spam, spam, spam, spam - magical spam, wonderful spam...

[whydidnt]

Guys, there may be some else more disturbing than the screen res: Available ROM!

Over at Brighthand, I read the following sentence about the Treo:

This Treo will have 64 MB of storage.

64mb of ROM will be the death knell of this device.

That's true, the Universal ROM, including extended ROM is about 84 MB, even without the extended ROM, it still must be close 64 MB. If the storage ROM is truly only 64 MB, then there will be VERY little space left to install any programs - and remember, some stuff such as the PIM databases need to expand in storage Flash, regardless of installed storage cards. Hopefully it will have 64MB of storage AVAILABLE, which would kick-butt on the current HTC offerings.

Not to start a flame war, but it would be very PALM like if they included a micro-sized ROM area. They have always skimped in at least one area on every device they have released for some insane reason. I can't imagine the $2.00/savings they would realize from this would really be worth the headaches, but....

[DarkHelmet]

DarkHelmet,

... I suggest you try looking at the world from a perspective other than your own - most of us have a different opinion and don't feel the need to insult others because they either do or don't like specific device. I much prefer a legitimate debate regarding it's features/useability and the like.

Point made. I re-read my post and have decided that I was a little harsh on the consumers of converged products. The name-calling was a bit over-the top. If I offended anyone, let me say it here, I was not talking about you - I was speaking about hypothetical consumers in the abstract.

I guess I forgot that there are people who would like to spend money on such devices.

I feel better now - how about you?

[Ed Hansberry]

However, those 80 lines are really going to be missed while reading email or documents, browsing the web or even using GPS. My earlier point is that there are several smaller devices already that provide a 320x240 resolution screen and there is no physical reason Palm, HP or whoever can't make a device using that screen with a thumb board on the front that is still the same size as the current Treo. This in my opinion makes it a lousy decision to go square, since MS has decided to only support 240 x240 or goofy pixed doubled 480x480 resoultions for square screens.

For those who say this device is aimed at the mass market and not a power user, and the mass market doesn't care - I ask why has the 650 been so much more popular than the 600? Part of it has to do with the higher res screen.
BUt you are mixing apples and oranges.

The 600 had a 160X160 screen, very pixelated. The 320X320 screen of the 650 does NOT add any more data. It is just higher res. So, a 320X320 screen isn't going to show any more info than a 240X240 or any less than a 480X480. You are getting the same info. The issue is, how high is the resolution. 160X is just too low resolution today. 240X looks pretty good, especially with cleartype turned on. I agree, 320X and higher looks even better, but that is what I argue that the average joe isn't going to get upset about, nor would I. I am happy with my current 320X240 PDA2K and if I had a real thumbboard integrated (not that membrane thing) and dropped to a square screen, I'd be ok with that too. I really prefer FITALY though so my preference is a rectangle screen and no keyboard.

However, I recognize the market has spoken. The square screens of the RIM and Treo combined with a thumbboard are the wave of the future for the majority of email centric devices.

[DarkHelmet]

However, I recognize the market has spoken. The square screens of the RIM and Treo combined with a thumbboard are the wave of the future for the majority of email centric devices.

I think you're right on the money. In earlier posts, I attempted to get across the idea that converged devices are merely compromised devices. That conclusion might have been obstructed by my rhetoric.

The problem I have with a 240x240 or a 480x480 screen is that I have yet to see one that I like. As I am 40-something years old, I realize that I am not in the prime 18-35 demographic anymore - but unless you're in that 18-35 group, chances are, you'll have trouble reading the small display.

Just my two cents - great job, Ed. Keep it up.

[whydidnt]

BUt you are mixing apples and oranges.

The 600 had a 160X160 screen, very pixelated. The 320X320 screen of the 650 does NOT add any more data. It is just higher res. So, a 320X320 screen isn't going to show any more info than a 240X240 or any less than a 480X480.
No, I think it's you that's got things mixed up. The physical size in inches of the screen does not impact the amount of data that either OS can display (readibility could be an issue on small screens though), but the resolution DOES impact how much information could be displayed.

To use your logic if a PPC had a 180 x 120 screen we could see as much information as we do today, it would just be pixelated (though not if the screen was small enough to support a High DPI display).

Your statement may be true for the core PIM applications, but isn't true for the browser and document readers, or any other PALM app that is Hi-Res aware. You can and should be able to see more information on a higher-resolution screen. That's because screen elements will be smaller, and small fonts will render clearly. It's similar on VGA pocket PC's - apps that are Hi-Res aware can display more data on a given screen than apps that are pixel doubled. You're kidding yourself if you think that a 240x240 screen can display as much information as a 320x320 screen. And if we ever see a 480x480 square screen, it "should" display more information than the 320 x320 scren -- if the applcations are made hi-res aware, otherswise it will be less - the 240x240 stuff that is pixel doubled.

If a given font takes 4 pixels accross to display - you can see 80 characters across on a 320 x 320 screen and only 60 on a 240x240 screen. We could do the same math problem vertically as well, but I always had problems with math. :)

[Ed Hansberry]

BUt you are mixing apples and oranges.

The 600 had a 160X160 screen, very pixelated. The 320X320 screen of the 650 does NOT add any more data. It is just higher res. So, a 320X320 screen isn't going to show any more info than a 240X240 or any less than a 480X480.
No, I think it's you that's got things mixed up. The physical size in inches of the screen does not impact the amount of data that either OS can display (readibility could be an issue on small screens though), but the resolution DOES impact how much information could be displayed.
That is the problem. It impacts how much could be displayed, but that isn't how it works. All Microsoft has done with the high-res is increase the clarity of the text/icons/images. They are not cutting everything in half and showing more information. So, 160X, 240X, 320X, 480X. They are all showing the same information at 4 different Dots Per Inch (DPI) settings. That's it.

It isn't like your desktop where you change resolution and things get bigger smaller. On WM, you can change text size in the control panel and force more/less words on a screen, but that operates independant of DPI, it is just the higher DPI devices look better at smaller text settings. I don't know if POS has a similar feature or not.

To use your logic if a PPC had a 180 x 120 screen we could see as much information as we do today, it would just be pixelated (though not if the screen was small enough to support a High DPI display).
Bingo! THat is exactly how it works. A 160X Palm shows the same info on a screen as the 320X does, it is just pixelated. The 640X480 VGA Pocket PCs show the same info as does a 320X240 screen. See the screenshots at http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=42017 - though don't get hung up on the font sizes - those are variable per site and you can also control that. Look at the menus, the buttons, the toolbar, etc. The info is the same, so a 480X480 Treo is not going to show you one whit more info than a 240X240. It will just show you the info with a higher DPI.

[whydidnt]

Ed,

I think you are missing my point. I understand completely how MS decided to implement VGA within WM - and have complained bitterly too many times to mention. :?

However, that doesn't mean third party applications can't take advantage of the extra pixels. It just means MS decided not to do that within their own applications AND in square devices the 80 pixels do matter as you have lost the last 80 lines of the display.

Back to the original topic comparing a 320x320 Treo display to a 240x240 WM display - the WM device can only displays 56% as much data in the same size screen. Because of how the PIM apps are laid out, it probably won't matter much there - but I bet if you compare a web browser or document from one device to the other the Treo will display more readable information. How can you sit here and agree that the 80 lines horizontally matter - we all agree you can't see as much down the screen - just look at your device with the SIP open - but then turn around and say the 80 vertical ones don't?

If you have access to both a VGA device and QVGA device - try this. Connect using the Terminal Services Client on both devices to your desktop using XP's Remote Desktop connection. Check the box that says "Limit the size of Server desktop to fit on this screen" Compare what you can see and do on the VGA device to the QVGA - I can use Outlook pretty well in VGA, but it's unusable for me in QVGA.

[Tim Rapson]

third party applications can take advantage of the extra pixels.
....
the WM device can only displays 56% as much data in the same size screen.

I see you have two basic points technically mostly right, but I agree more with Ed on what it means.

The difference is not in how much "data in the same screen" is displayed but how many pixels. These are not the same thing.

And actually, the WM 240 by 240 screens are exactly half the resolution of the POSs not 56%. They go;
1. 160 by 160 Low RES
2. 240 by 240 Medium Low RES (Same RES as QVGA, but with SIP down)
3. 320 by 320 Medium high RES (Same as HVGA, but with SIP down)
4. 480 by 480 High RES (Same as VGA, but with SIP down)

See how the first set is 80 pixels from the second set, and the second and 80 pixels from the third? The 480 by 480 actually quadruples the middle set just as the third set quadruples the first. They are all perfect multiples. So technically, the QVGA should be able to show something between between the 2nd and third screens above, but this is not going to be very useful if the screen is too small to see it.

Now, you make a somewhat good point on the add-in programs doing better on VGA or other higher res screens, but keep in mind how tiny that Treo screen is. If you go to 320 by 240 on that size screen and use those few apps that really let you make those small fonts might technically be able to draw more text onto the screen, but you are going to have to carry a magnifying glass around to use your phone.

You can see this already if you try to use one of your special programs, like I use WordSmith, on a 320 by 320 screen. Sure, I can see more on my Zire 72 at that resollution, but if I set the screen to show the fonts as small as the resollution allows I practically can't see them. One the even smaller Treo screen I could definitely not see them.

I like my Medium High RES screen. I like the VGA screens. But for most people they are not going to add usefullness in displaying more data and I think the any resolution over the basic QVGA is just for looks not for practicality of showing more information. Microsoft hit it exactly right with QVGA a PDA.

As noted above it may depend a little on age. You young whippersnappers can use that higher res if really want to hold your phone up 6-8 inches from your nose. I can if I want to mess with my bifocals. But, I think for 99% of the time for 99% of users QVGA is as good as is useful. The higher res screens look nice, but don't really display more information more usefully.

I believe the vast majority of users who are honest with themselves would conclude the same, that resolutions above 240 by 240 on a PDA/Phone sized screens may be a little nicer to look at, but are not significantly more useful at displaying more information than the higher res ones.

[jpaq]

OK
Put practicality aside.
Time for reality.
If 50% of users like QVGA and the other 50% like, can use, and/or prefer VGA, and the VGA screen can operate in QVGA as well as VGA modes, MS, HP, Palm, and who ever else is better off with a VGA screen that can make everyone happy vs. a QVGA screen that makes only 50% of their potential customers happy.
Plus, you NEVER offer ANYTHING or ANY FEATURE that is inferior or less desirable than your target or direct competitor if at all possible. That is, unless failure is an acceptable option.

8)

[Newsboy]

Square screens (regardless of pixel resolution) aren't practical in Windows Mobile for 1 reason: The Today Screen.

I have Journal Bar, Battery Bar, MS Money, Calendar, and Tasks on my Today screen. Even now I have to occasionally scroll up and down to see everything if I have a lot of items on my calendar on a given day.

As for the debate about cameras in converged devices, I say offer both. But if you're not going to offer both, only sell a non-camera version. I agree with DarkHelmet, these devices are (and should be) aimed at corporate users. That's why they are typically priced out of the range of the "average" consumer ($600-800). A corporation can justify spending this kind of money, as it's a tax write-off, and (hopefully) increases worker productivity. For the average consumer, it's just a fancy toy. A lot of companies these days are banning camera phones/pdas in the workplace for security reasons, and therefore wireless providers and device mfgr's are making them without cameras.

HP has demonstrated in the past that they are supporting Corporate customers first. They didn't offer upgrades for the 1900 series iPaqs. Why? Because the bulk of their revenue is from corporate customers. If you are a consumer, and you think your opinion makes a damn bit of difference to the bean counters and execs in charge of HP's mobile devices group, you're delusional. I'm not trying to insult anyone, but that's reality, deal with it.

Verizon is another company that gets this. They offer almost all of their devices with and without cameras. The devices they only offer in one version are typically non-camera versions. They are following the money trail, not the squeeky wheel.

Sprint doesn't get it. They are pushing their Vision service to consumers in an effort to drive up revenues; and they're pushing camera phones and PDAs to go with it. As a result, they're losing corporate customers, including me.

I understand that we're all enthusiasts here, but what we get to buy at retail is dictated by what corporate customers want from these devices. When retail customers buy the majority of these devices, maybe that will change.

[ebadger]

http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000867059961

anyone notice anything interesting about the last photo of the Treo on the list of photos on engadget?

[Darius Wey]

http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000867059961

anyone notice anything interesting about the last photo of the Treo on the list of photos on engadget?

It has Voice Command? :confused totally: