Delayed Windows Mobile 5.0 Upgrade for Fujitsu-Siemens Pocket LOOX 718 / 720

[Darius Wey]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.firstloox.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4778' target='_blank'>http://www.firstloox.org/forums/sho...read.php?t=4778</a><br /><br /></div><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/2003/wey-20050629-FS.gif" /><br /><br />There have been semi-official reports made over at <a href="http://www.firstloox.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4778">FirstLoox.org</a> that the Windows Mobile 5.0 upgrade for the Pocket LOOX 718 / 720 series will be delayed until January 2006. So far, this is an ETA though no further delays are anticipated.<br /><br />It was originally expected that the English version of the Windows Mobile 5.0 upgrade would be released today (14 September 2005).

[unxmully]

Isn't this just another example of how poorly some organisations treat their customers. They must have known for some time that this was going to happen and yet they only tell their customers of a four month slippage the day the new version is due :?

Very poor. Compared to FS, HP were well ahead if the game when the told us of the 4700 slippage. I'm not overly happy about that because it smacks of shoddy management at HP and the responsible third party but it was handled a little better by the communications people.

I wonder if the same people have broken the FS shipping date as did the HP one?

[zybler]

Ah Ha! You should have bought a Dell!!! :devilboy:

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p.s: Sorry, I didn't own a Dell. But I just have to let this out of me. I got sick of people saying "my device is better than yours because I have WM5" last time when the news has it that WM5 for HP has been delayed. :mrgreen:

[ctitanic]

well, it's confortable to see that I wont be alone in this waiting room 0X :devilboy:

[Duncan]

Isn't this just another example of how poorly some organisations treat their customers. They must have known for some time that this was going to happen and yet they only tell their customers of a four month slippage the day the new version is due :?

Very poor. Compared to FS, HP were well ahead if the game when the told us of the 4700 slippage. I'm not overly happy about that because it smacks of shoddy management at HP and the responsible third party but it was handled a little better by the communications people.

I wonder if the same people have broken the FS shipping date as did the HP one?

Some clarification: The 14 September date was *never* officially announced but appeared on documentation intended for internal use, partners and retailers. The document was released back in June and reflected Fujitsu-Siemen's plans as they stood way back then - before certain problems were found.

The only official announcement was of an intended Autumn release - that means any time from the beginning of September to the end of November. It is my understanding that, until very recently, they still hoped to make a late Autumn release.

No company makes a song and dance about bad news - even HP only quietly changed a bit of text on their website - which someone happened to notice.

[ctitanic]

... before certain problems were found.


What problems?

[whydidnt]

Interesting that when HP 's delay was made known a lot of us made our displeasure known on this forum. FSC announces a delay and we hardly hear a word from Loox owners. Are there just that many more HP owners? Or has HP been so bad at PR lately are people just fed up with them and not willing to cut any slack?

[Duncan]

Interesting that when HP 's delay was made known a lot of us made our displeasure known on this forum. FSC announces a delay and we hardly hear a word from Loox owners. Are there just that many more HP owners? Or has HP been so bad at PR lately are people just fed up with them and not willing to cut any slack?

Partly I think we are just fairly philosophical about it - the Loox 720 is a great machine as it is and works just fine with WM 2003 SE - why panic about a delay? Also, though, the much more extended delay of the hx4700 makes a delay to January for the Loox seem less bad.

[ctitanic]

Interesting that when HP 's delay was made known a lot of us made our displeasure known on this forum. FSC announces a delay and we hardly hear a word from Loox owners. Are there just that many more HP owners? Or has HP been so bad at PR lately are people just fed up with them and not willing to cut any slack?

well because loox is not sold in Canada or USA. If you go to firsloox.org you will see a lot of them complaining. This site is full of HPs, Dells, Toshibas the rest is just a minority. ;)

[ctitanic]

Interesting that when HP 's delay was made known a lot of us made our displeasure known on this forum. FSC announces a delay and we hardly hear a word from Loox owners. Are there just that many more HP owners? Or has HP been so bad at PR lately are people just fed up with them and not willing to cut any slack?

Partly I think we are just fairly philosophical about it - the Loox 720 is a great machine as it is and works just fine with WM 2003 SE - why panic about a delay? Also, though, the much more extended delay of the hx4700 makes a delay to January for the Loox seem less bad.

Ducan, check your site... ;) I do not see too much of that philosophy there :D

the reason is just geographical ;) Loox is sold in Europe, if we check in this site from where users are coming we will find that the huge majority is from USA and Canada and other places where LOOX is not sold in retails stores only online.

[DaleReeck]

Now that I have a device that runs Windwos Mobile 5 (a JasJar), I wouldn't be too much in a hurry to get upgraded to Windows Mobile 5 or get rid of the WM 2003 PocketPC. While I like the device and definitely see some advantages in the WM5 OS, I am still keeping my Samsung I730 as my primary device.

WM5 does some things well and some are a step back in my opinion. I am also definitely not a fan of ActiveSync 4 (for example, there's no way to turn off continuous syncing - I always liked to set it to "manual" with AS 3.x).

I'm running at about an 80% software compatibility rate. Also, unless an app was written for WM5, any app that has a conduit probably won't work. Well, the app may work, but not the conduit. Plus, I'm irritated that one of my favorite games, Atomic Cannon, doesn't work :(

The device, as expected, can be a bit sluggish at times. But the advantage of no-loss memory on dead batteries (as well as what I'm guessing is better protection against bad apps causing memory corruption and spontanious hard resets) is a definite plus.

[whydidnt]

Now that I have a device that runs Windwos Mobile 5 (a JasJar), I wouldn't be too much in a hurry to get upgraded to Windows Mobile 5 or get rid of the WM 2003 PocketPC. While I like the device and definitely see some advantages in the WM5 OS, I am still keeping my Samsung I730 as my primary device.

I think Dale makes a very good point. Unless you really want/need the upgraded office apps and persistent storage, there really isn't a lot to be gained from the upgrade. Okay, easier operation with the keyboad, but even that's not perfect.

I also agree that it seems AS 4 is a step backwards, much less flexibility in setup and while running, plus no Wi-Fi support. My experience has also shown that the expected RAM benefit also doesn't exist - it may be even worse than before.

[DaleReeck]

Now that I have a device that runs Windwos Mobile 5 (a JasJar), I wouldn't be too much in a hurry to get upgraded to Windows Mobile 5 or get rid of the WM 2003 PocketPC. While I like the device and definitely see some advantages in the WM5 OS, I am still keeping my Samsung I730 as my primary device.

I think Dale makes a very good point. Unless you really want/need the upgraded office apps and persistent storage, there really isn't a lot to be gained from the upgrade. Okay, easier operation with the keyboad, but even that's not perfect.

I also agree that it seems AS 4 is a step backwards, much less flexibility in setup and while running, plus no Wi-Fi support. My experience has also shown that the expected RAM benefit also doesn't exist - it may be even worse than before.

The softwre definitely needs to catch up with WM5, even more so than 2003 did with 2002 or 2003 SE did with 2003. Also, you are right, the RAM "benefit" seems to simply be different problems, not less. The big benefit is, program execution space is always available in a decently high enough RAM number regardless of how much program stuff you have installed in main memory (I usually have 20+MB free to always launch and execute a program).

But the downside is, program storage file space is a problem in that it seems to run out fast. The JasJar only has about 25MB available to start with and some stuff you just have to install to main memory. This seems a little worse than managing WM 2003 memory. I think, just like 128MB of RAM used to be the benchmark for WM 2003, it is now 256MB ROM for WM5.

Also, I have to say, the new Exel and Word do not seem that much better in WM5 than they were in WM 2003. But there is a native Powerpoint viewer now :)

As far as Activesync 4 goes, I think MS saw two camps of people - those growing numbers that were getting more familiar with their PDA's and wanted detailed control and the even larger growing number of people who are new to PDA's and aren't really knowledable but are buying them like crazy anyways. MS chose to cater to the latter group unfortunately by dumbing down AS :(

Another annoyance for me is, in the past I like to keep an organized PPC and would move the default icons for programs out of the main "Programs" group into sub groups (you know, in addition to Games, I would have Media, Reference, etc). Now, it appears those icons are locked - you cannot move them. Only icons of apps you install can be moved. The icons that are there after a hard reset stay right where they are. I wonder, does that mean we can't over-write existing files in the ROM? Often, someone changes a DLL to support some feature and in WM 2003, you can over-write the existing file or DLL with your own. You really aren't over-writing it, you are simply placing a pointer to the new file. But in WM5, if you can't move icons, I wonder if the user can over-write files at all?

I see there is also still no support in the MS bluetooth stack for the advanced audio profile for stereo headsets. Or HID devices. And I thought MS Voice Command was going to come built with WM5 (it isn't on the JasJar)? The current VC 1.5 works, but I thought it was going to be built into WM5? I can see that a lot of pre-WM5 info was just plain wrong 8O

Now, some cool stuff about WM5 that MS did get right: Apps now ask you the "location to install app to" question on the device, not the desktop. The advantage is, if you have a raw CAB to install directly from the device, you do not need to be forced to install to main memory or need a third party CAB installer. WM5 asks you where do you want to install the CAB to. It also seems to install to storage cards in a directory stucture similar to installing to main memory. That is, it installs apps to a storage card in the Programs and Programs\Games directory just like it does in main memory. It doesn't install the app directory directly in the root on a storage card like it does in WM 2003. I wonder if that means apps that require main memory installation will be more forgiving if you try and put them on a storage card?

Also, they put icons for battery and screen rotate on the today screen, right above the bottom tool bar. Wireless icons appear to if you have a wireless device.

Sorry for the long messages, but I just thought people might be interested about WM5 under actual use conditions :D

[Duncan]

Interesting that when HP 's delay was made known a lot of us made our displeasure known on this forum. FSC announces a delay and we hardly hear a word from Loox owners. Are there just that many more HP owners? Or has HP been so bad at PR lately are people just fed up with them and not willing to cut any slack?

Partly I think we are just fairly philosophical about it - the Loox 720 is a great machine as it is and works just fine with WM 2003 SE - why panic about a delay? Also, though, the much more extended delay of the hx4700 makes a delay to January for the Loox seem less bad.

Ducan, check your site... ;) I do not see too much of that philosophy there :D

Really? I do...! :) E.g. - here are 6 of the first 9 reactions to the news:

- That's a shame. As much as I'm looking forward to seeing some of the newer changes in action, there's nothing crucuial, so I'm not going to break down and cry.

- The delay....... Well, I can't even break out into a sigh.

- There is no reason to cry to be honest. SE works fine, machine is JUST THE BEST. who cares about upgrade

- Think of this in the right way - now we'll get the upgrade after most software has been updated to deal with it (if necessary). This is not a bad thing!

- I consider this as a great birthday present from FSC I hope they don't let me down ...

- It is indeed a shame. Shame on FSC. Not a surprise though. I start to doubt if this is not a "wait and see" move which finally can end with that no update will be offered at all. On the other hand; my Loox works flawlesly so why bother? ;-)

Seems pretty philosophical to me....! :)

[ctitanic]

English are more cold blood kind of person ;) We americans are more "Happy Trigger" kind of guys ;) so we react more like Fu.k HP! :D And that's philosophy too :devilboy:

[ansa]

I have the Loox 718 and was wondering about persistent storage. Will my device support this after the WM5.0-upgrade for sure, or is persistent storage dependent on new hardware? Was also wondering about the batterylife. Is this because WM 5.0 supports new hardware or will it also have an effekt on my 718?

Persistent storage and extended battery life is the big advantages with WM 5.0 for me.

[Duncan]

I have the Loox 718 and was wondering about persistent storage. Will my device support this after the WM5.0-upgrade for sure, or is persistent storage dependent on new hardware? Was also wondering about the batterylife. Is this because WM 5.0 supports new hardware or will it also have an effekt on my 718?

Persistent storage and extended battery life is the big advantages with WM 5.0 for me.

It will support persisitent storage yes. The remainder of the 64MB ROM after the new OS is installed (probably c. 20MB). Plus you will be able to store on an SD or CF card as before.

It is intended that a RAMDisk will also be supplied - so you can continue to use some RAM for program storage too - if you want to. This will obviously not survive a power loss (as in WM 2003 SE) but it will have the speed advantages of RAM.

[ctitanic]

I have the Loox 718 and was wondering about persistent storage. Will my device support this after the WM5.0-upgrade for sure, or is persistent storage dependent on new hardware? Was also wondering about the batterylife. Is this because WM 5.0 supports new hardware or will it also have an effekt on my 718?

Persistent storage and extended battery life is the big advantages with WM 5.0 for me.

It will support persisitent storage yes. The remainder of the 64MB ROM after the new OS is installed (probably c. 20MB). Plus you will be able to store on an SD or CF card as before.

It is intended that a RAMDisk will also be supplied - so you can continue to use some RAM for program storage too - if you want to. This will obviously not survive a power loss (as in WM 2003 SE) but it will have the speed advantages of RAM.

In a 64 MB of RAM machine with WM5 all that is left of free RAM is 20 MB so I doubt that you can split those 20 MB in some RAMDisk and still be able to run 2 applications at the same time ;)

[Duncan]

I have the Loox 718 and was wondering about persistent storage. Will my device support this after the WM5.0-upgrade for sure, or is persistent storage dependent on new hardware? Was also wondering about the batterylife. Is this because WM 5.0 supports new hardware or will it also have an effekt on my 718?

Persistent storage and extended battery life is the big advantages with WM 5.0 for me.

It will support persisitent storage yes. The remainder of the 64MB ROM after the new OS is installed (probably c. 20MB). Plus you will be able to store on an SD or CF card as before.

It is intended that a RAMDisk will also be supplied - so you can continue to use some RAM for program storage too - if you want to. This will obviously not survive a power loss (as in WM 2003 SE) but it will have the speed advantages of RAM.

In a 64 MB of RAM machine with WM5 all that is left of free RAM is 20 MB so I doubt that you can split those 20 MB in some RAMDisk and still be able to run 2 applications at the same time ;)

Except that the Loox 718 and 720 have 128MB RAM.

[Jonathan1]

**Starts herding Loox and 4700 users behind the red velvet rope with a big sign posted**

NO OS FOR JOO!!

:cry:

[ctitanic]

I have the Loox 718 and was wondering about persistent storage. Will my device support this after the WM5.0-upgrade for sure, or is persistent storage dependent on new hardware? Was also wondering about the batterylife. Is this because WM 5.0 supports new hardware or will it also have an effekt on my 718?

Persistent storage and extended battery life is the big advantages with WM 5.0 for me.

It will support persisitent storage yes. The remainder of the 64MB ROM after the new OS is installed (probably c. 20MB). Plus you will be able to store on an SD or CF card as before.

It is intended that a RAMDisk will also be supplied - so you can continue to use some RAM for program storage too - if you want to. This will obviously not survive a power loss (as in WM 2003 SE) but it will have the speed advantages of RAM.

In a 64 MB of RAM machine with WM5 all that is left of free RAM is 20 MB so I doubt that you can split those 20 MB in some RAMDisk and still be able to run 2 applications at the same time ;)

Except that the Loox 718 and 720 have 128MB RAM.

That's a really good advantage with WM5. ;)

[Duncan]

That's a really good advantage with WM5. ;)

I suspect it is. Under WM5, in a dual slot machine, you can install to an SD card or to PS in ROM - thus lack of ROM space just isn't an issue. Since WM5 appears to take a rather more significant RAM to run than WM2003SE - then I'd say 128MB RAM isn't such a bad thing after all (if possibly a bit overkill) Sure - a bit more draining on the battery - but not drastically so.

I'm not reviving any old which is best - 64/128 or 128/64 ROM/RAM - arguments. Just pointing out that if those are the choices - then I would argue there are advantages and disadvantages to both in WM5 machines.

Ideally I suspect that there will be a further shift - and we will get machines with 128MB ROM (or even 256MB) AND 128MB RAM (or at least 96MB).

Indeed - after reading more and more about the memory set up of the Universal (and another upcoming Pocket PC which, annoyingly, I'm going to not talk about...! ;)) - I'm feeling more and more secure about the memory set up of my Loox 720.

[Menneisyys]

I wonder if that means apps that require main memory installation will be more forgiving if you try and put them on a storage card?


You mean apps (Peacemaker (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=364073), RVGSM (http://pocketpcmag.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17757), c2i (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=362309) etc?) that have wired-in references to \My Documents, \Program Files or \Windows? I don't think so, unless you manually 'hack' them out to a storage card.

Back to the subject: the JasJar should indeed have more ROM...

[ctitanic]

That's a really good advantage with WM5. ;)

I suspect it is. Under WM5, in a dual slot machine, you can install to an SD card or to PS in ROM - thus lack of ROM space just isn't an issue. Since WM5 appears to take a rather more significant RAM to run than WM2003SE - then I'd say 128MB RAM isn't such a bad thing after all (if possibly a bit overkill) Sure - a bit more draining on the battery - but not drastically so.

I'm not reviving any old which is best - 64/128 or 128/64 ROM/RAM - arguments. Just pointing out that if those are the choices - then I would argue there are advantages and disadvantages to both in WM5 machines.

Ideally I suspect that there will be a further shift - and we will get machines with 128MB ROM (or even 256MB) AND 128MB RAM (or at least 96MB).

Indeed - after reading more and more about the memory set up of the Universal (and another upcoming Pocket PC which, annoyingly, I'm going to not talk about...! ;)) - I'm feeling more and more secure about the memory set up of my Loox 720.

From all I have read, 64 is enough (WM5 left you with 20 to 22 MB of RAM), 98 MB is going to be Super and 128 is an over kill (you will end paying for something that you are not going to be using unless the OEM prepares for you sort kind of RAMDisk).