No Keyboard-Enabled Axim?

[Janak Parekh]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.bargainpda.com/default.asp?newsID=2635' target='_blank'>http://www.bargainpda.com/default.asp?newsID=2635</a><br /><br /></div><i>"Last week a report came out on BusinessWeek.com that Dell would likely be releasing a new PDA with QWERTY keyboard. As exciting as that may be to talk about, it's not going to happen according to Dell...There also will not be a version with mobile phone capabilities. While this may change at some point in the future, nothing will be released in 2005 along these lines."</i><br /><br />Earlier, we <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=42251">posted</a> on the speculation that Dell would be releasing a keyboard-enabled Axim. Looks like it won't happen. :|

[ctmagnus]

Bah. Qwerty = dull, whether it makes it to market or not. Now, a Fitaly-layout hard keyboard, that would be interesting! :mrgreen:

[mscdex]

Personally, I find the slide-out keyboard on my Sharp Zaurus SL-5600 very convenient and very handy. It is also much easier to type on and more feasible than the iPaq detachable thumb keyboard that slid on the bottom of the iPaq (also covering all the buttons and/or d-pad).

Too bad Dell didn't follow through with say a WM5-based x50v-like handheld with a slide-out QWERTY keyboard. That would have to be THE ultimate device, at least for me anyway. 8)

[Darius Wey]

Now, a Fitaly-layout hard keyboard, that would be interesting! :mrgreen:

Now I doubt something like that would surface within the next decade. ;)

[Duncan]

So - HP have brought out a Phone Edition PPC (or is it three?), Fujitsu-Siemens are bringing one out (and I hear a rumour that Asus will be too) - but not Dell? Has no-one told them what direction the market is moving in?

[Marcel_Proust]

Now, a Fitaly-layout hard keyboard, that would be interesting! :mrgreen:

Now I doubt something like that would surface within the next decade. ;)

fitaly is designed for quick one pen input. wouldn't really make sense for two handed thumb input at all - the fingers would clash over the most used keys. there might be a better layout, but unlikely to be hardwired.

[PetiteFlower]

The market isn't "moving" towards converged devices. The market is broadening to include them. There are many people, myself included, who have no interest in a converged device or one with a built in thumbboard. Dell saw the disaster HP recently caused in its PDA department by offering way too many models at once. It looks like they are going to avoid that by sticking with supporting only 2 models at any one time, so they have to choose the second one carefully. I don't think the PDA Phone market is quite big or stable enough for them to enter just yet. Maybe next year :)

Thumboards are clunky and add a lot of size and bulk to a device. They're also a niche product even for the PDA market; a few vocal people REALLY love them, the rest don't care or would actively avoid such a device. Why would Dell risk appealing to such a small segment and alienating the rest?

[mscdex]

Thumboards are clunky and add a lot of size and bulk to a device. They're also a niche product even for the PDA market; a few vocal people REALLY love them, the rest don't care or would actively avoid such a device. Why would Dell risk appealing to such a small segment and alienating the rest?

Depending on how you would implement the built-in thumb keyboard, it wouldn't have to be clunky at all.

Take a look at this (http://cgi.ebay.com/Sharp-Zaurus-SL-5600_W0QQitemZ5795523901QQcategoryZ38331QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#stockphoto) completed eBay auction that has pictures of the Zaurus that I have. The keyboard is very thin and and is much much easier to type on in-person than the HP thumb keyboard (as I have actually bought and tried that one out as well).


I do agree 100% with what PetiteFlower said about the market and converged devices. Not everyone wants/has a cell phone/wireless internet, me being one of them.

[Mitch D]

"Last week a report came out on BusinessWeek.com that Dell would likely be releasing a new PDA with QWERTY keyboard. As exciting as that may be to talk about, it's not going to happen according to Dell...There also will not be a version with mobile phone capabilities. While this may change at some point in the future, nothing will be released in 2005 along these lines."

Earlier, we posted (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=42251) on the speculation that Dell would be releasing a keyboard-enabled Axim. Looks like it won't happen. :|

This is a little disappointing, I would really like to see a good PPC device that is none cell based that has a slide out keyboard. Something simular to the Audiovox 6600. Something with bluetooth and WiFi, a 624 MHz processor, 128 MB and (hears where the dreaming comes in) a VGA screen with CF &amp; SD as well as intergrated GPS.

That would be my perfect PPC.

[Duncan]

The market isn't "moving" towards converged devices. The market is broadening to include them. There are many people, myself included, who have no interest in a converged device or one with a built in thumbboard.

With all due respect - the market has already moved - and did so some time ago. Connected devices rule the mobile device market. Even the single most successful PDA currently on the market is as much a mobile phone as a PDA. The market is not broadening to include converged devices - that massively overplays the importance of the PDA. The market is overwhelmingly a connected one and PDA providers are simply recognising this and joining it.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not anti unconnected PDAs. It is my choice to keep my phone and PDA separate. I'm under no illusions however. The unconnected PDA is just part of the smallest mobile market segment and is dying. My interest or your interest doesn't enter into it - we are a tiny minority and we are, frankly, lucky that we are still being catered for.

I'm not going to make a firm prediction - too often unexpected things happen that render useless the criteria for predictions. I will say, however, that given the current (not future - but right this very moment) state of the market, assuming trends continue as they are, I would be very suprised if the unconnected PDA isn't dead (or gasping for its last breath) within the next 18 month to two years.


Something else that struck me about this news report. I hadn't properly taken in that the report says: 'nothing will be released in 2005 along these lines.' Interesting that Dell should just say 2005 - and not, for example, 'the next year'. Being as we only have 4 months left I'm not so sure that Dell have ruled out a connected Pocket PC - after all, they could release one in January and still stay true to their word...

[Ed@Brighthand]

Dell will continue to deny that it's going to put out a smartphone with a keyboard until the day it puts out a smartphone with a keyboard.

And it's been known for a long time that Dell doesn't plan to do this in 2005. It's coming in the middle of next year, according to a leaked company timeline. You can see it here (http://www.brighthand.com/article/Dell_Roadmap_for_2005-2006?site=PPC).

[ADBrown]

With all due respect - the market has already moved - and did so some time ago. Connected devices rule the mobile device market.

Not really. For all the hype, traditional handhelds still far outsell converged models. If you're talking about connectivity, sure, it's obvious that devices are going to grow more and more connected. But the assumption that phones have or will supplant the more traditional handheld designs is premature. One could easily argue that phones are becoming passe, and being replaced by traditional handhelds. Look at the Treo. It's a phone, but it's as much or more of a data device. Likewise the Blackberries, the Samsung i730, the new iPaq 6000 series, etcetera. Even Motorola's RAZRberry smartphone, the Q, looks and acts more like a data oriented device. Or the new HTC Tornado models, which now come with built-in WiFi and QVGA screens. Looking at it that way, the smartphone market is becoming more like the traditional handheld, rather than the other way around.

Something else that struck me about this news report. I hadn't properly taken in that the report says: 'nothing will be released in 2005 along these lines.' Interesting that Dell should just say 2005 - and not, for example, 'the next year'. Being as we only have 4 months left I'm not so sure that Dell have ruled out a connected Pocket PC - after all, they could release one in January and still stay true to their word...

Maybe so, but they answered pretty quickly and confidently in the negative when we asked them. They didn't sound like people who had a PocketPC phone coming out New Year's Day.

Dell will continue to deny that it's going to put out a smartphone with a keyboard until the day it puts out a smartphone with a keyboard.

And it's been known for a long time that Dell doesn't plan to do this in 2005. It's coming in the middle of next year, according to a leaked company timeline. You can see it here (http://www.brighthand.com/article/Dell_Roadmap_for_2005-2006?site=PPC).

That timeline is wrong. Sorry, but it is.

[Duncan]

With all due respect - the market has already moved - and did so some time ago. Connected devices rule the mobile device market.

Not really. For all the hype, traditional handhelds still far outsell converged models. If you're talking about connectivity, sure, it's obvious that devices are going to grow more and more connected. But the assumption that phones have or will supplant the more traditional handheld designs is premature. One could easily argue that phones are becoming passe, and being replaced by traditional handhelds. Look at the Treo. It's a phone, but it's as much or more of a data device. Likewise the Blackberries, the Samsung i730, the new iPaq 6000 series, etcetera. Even Motorola's RAZRberry smartphone, the Q, looks and acts more like a data oriented device. Or the new HTC Tornado models, which now come with built-in WiFi and QVGA screens. Looking at it that way, the smartphone market is becoming more like the traditional handheld, rather than the other way around.

You are thinking of handhelds only in the way that we, in the PDA buying sector, think of them. Phones are not becoming passe (have you seen the figures recently - sales of mobile phones are on the up and up, smartphones particularly so?!) - but they are becoming more powerful. The average consumer will go for a conncted device first and foremost - and if it does cool data related things, all the better. Non-converged handhelds are a tiny, tiny segement of the market - for the (really) small segment who want a data device that isn't connected.

Let's face it - those of us wanting non-connected data devices are dinosaurs - the majority are toting their Palm Treos, Symbian based Nokias, SE P910s, HTC Phones, MS and other Smartphones - and yes, combined even just these smart connected devices outsell the whole non-connected PDA market by a huge margin. That's discounting all the other mobile phones that have very limited data/internet functions.

Devices aren't becoming more connected - most already are - but those few that aren't are rapidly losing what little ground they hold.

This isn't hype - this is the reality. You see smartphones becoming more like PDAs - the average consumer, OTOH, simply sees mobiles becoming more powerful. We see unconnected PDAs as a major segemnt of the market - everyone else sees them as a niche product lacking in the feature that the vast majority of people see as the most important - WAN connectivity.

If you seriously think the (huge) phone market is moving in the direction of the (tiny) PDA market - you are looking at things back to front - really, you are.

[ADBrown]

You are thinking of handhelds only in the way that we, in the PDA buying sector, think of them. Phones are not becoming passe (have you seen the figures recently - sales of mobile phones are on the up and up, smartphones particularly so?!)

I'm talking about converged devices. Look at a Motorola Q, and tell me whether it looks more like a traditional handheld or a traditional cellphone. The data component is becoming more important, which means that the converged devices are moving back towards the more capable handheld-like feature set. Not too long ago, the "pure smartphone" pushers would have said a phone with WiFi was impossible, impractical, and unnecessary, that WiFi was a holdover from devices that didn't have GPRS. Now look at the HTC Tornados.

Let's face it - those of us wanting non-connected data devices are dinosaurs - the majority are toting their Palm Treos, Symbian based Nokias, SE P910s, HTC Phones, MS and other Smartphones - and yes, combined even just these smart connected devices outsell the whole non-connected PDA market by a huge margin.

Not even close. Treos sell about a million, maybe a million point five units a year. Windows Smartphones sell anothe million, and PPC phones also a million. That's 3.5 million. Traditional handhelds still sell in the range of 9-10 million a year.

This isn't hype - this is the reality. You see smartphones becoming more like PDAs - the average consumer, OTOH, simply sees mobiles becoming more powerful.

Let them see whatever they want. What I see is that converged devices, rather than moving away from handhelds as all the pundits predicted, are moving closer to their roots, and adopting more functionality rather than less.

[Duncan]

I'm talking about converged devices. Look at a Motorola Q, and tell me whether it looks more like a traditional handheld or a traditional cellphone. The data component is becoming more important, which means that the converged devices are moving back towards the more capable handheld-like feature set. Not too long ago, the "pure smartphone" pushers would have said a phone with WiFi was impossible, impractical, and unnecessary, that WiFi was a holdover from devices that didn't have GPRS. Now look at the HTC Tornados.

No. Sorry but - no. Phones are developing more features but to claim that they are moving towards the PDA market is poppycock. For the vast majority of the billion plus phones out there the top criteria is to remain a phone first and foremost - with data features being a good addition. Gradually, as features can be added they are being added, but not at the expense of battery life, size and ability to act as phones and SMS senders. It is PDAs that are having to move towards the phones - thus the number of shrunken converged PDAs we've recently seen.

Not even close. Treos sell about a million, maybe a million point five units a year. Windows Smartphones sell anothe million, and PPC phones also a million. That's 3.5 million. Traditional handhelds still sell in the range of 9-10 million a year.

You manage to make that argument only by completely missing out Symbian (which, if you check, I didn't). Nokia smartphones (with all their MP3 playing, e-mailing, internet surfing, diary and games functions) wipe the floor with Windows and Plam machines. An estimated 150 million smartphones have been sold - Palm, Windows and Symbin combined - with a further several hundred million phones with at least basic functions (good enough for the majority of consumers). Your 9 - 10 million 'traditional handhelds' are barely a drop in the ocean. Bearing in mind that most of the recent PDA announcement have been of connected 'phone sized' devices - how can you not see which way round the market is? The mobile phone market is like a black hole dragging the PDA market inexorably towards it

Let them see whatever they want. What I see is that converged devices, rather than moving away from handhelds as all the pundits predicted, are moving closer to their roots, and adopting more functionality rather than less.

I'll say it again - phones are becoming more advanced, smartphones in particular - but they are phones adding features - they are not moving in the direction of PDAs. It just isn't happening. PDAs, however, are definitely moving towards bing more phone like. I'll say it again - while it is a failure in the UK, in the US the Treo - a PDA deliberately phone like in size and function - is beating all comers. In the UK where WM PDA phones are relatively strong - the XDA range has been a success, but the interest in the smaller 'phone sized' Magician has dwarfed the success of its bigger predecessors. Why? Because consumers in general like the idea of devices that do more - but their priorities are devices that work well as phones over and above everything else.

The pundits are right - because they open their eyes and observe what the majority want and what the majority do - not what we as PDA owners may wish to be the reality.

[ADBrown]

No. Sorry but - no. Phones are developing more features but to claim that they are moving towards the PDA market is poppycock.

Again, I am talking about smartphones, converged devices, not typical phones. There is always going to be a vast and intractible market for ordinary phones. That is completely irrelevant. What I am talking about is the evolution of smartphones.

You manage to make that argument only by completely missing out Symbian (which, if you check, I didn't).

I left out Symbian because Nokia's numbers are overinflated by an order of magnitude. Nokia sells many devices that they classify as "smartphones" which are never used for anything more that voice, SMS, and contacts. The only reason that they get away with this is because they pack a Symbian kernel into the device, rather than using proprietary software. There was user survey some time back that showed that even in the tech savvy US and Europe, well over 90% of Nokia "smartphone" users didn't even realize that their phones even had an operating system, or that they were capable of more than basic features. These aren't serious voice/data devices--they're designed mostly to fluff Nokia's marketshare numbers and let them boast about being the world's number one smartphone manufacturer. I wouldn't be surprised if half of the hype around smartphones was paid for by them.

If you remove the fluff phones, and include the real Symbian devices and those Nokia models worth mentioning, you're still only talking about another million units a year at the outside.

I'll say it again - while it is a failure in the UK, in the US the Treo - a PDA deliberately phone like in size and function - is beating all comers. In the UK where WM PDA phones are relatively strong - the XDA range has been a success, but the interest in the smaller 'phone sized' Magician has dwarfed the success of its bigger predecessors.

I'll first point out that while the Treo is doing well, it's not the number one seller in the US, either in the handheld or phone market, and it only makes up about a third of the sales for its parent company.

In any event, I think you just proved my point. The devices that are most popular in the converged market are handhelds which integrate phone functions, not phones that integrate PDA functions. The Treo, the Magician, the XDAs, the upcoming Wizards, etc.. The entire point of buying a smartphone is to have both voice and data functions. To have more robust data functions, they have to be closer to a handheld than a phone--keyboards instead of keypads, high-res touchscreens instead of low-res displays, high-speed wireless instead of bare bones GPRS, real operating systems instead of proprietary firmware.

That's why I take issue with the insistance that smartphones are going to destroy the handheld market. Smartphones ARE handhelds. They just have a couple of added features. That doesn't make them equivalent to a free camera phone at RadioShack, and it doesn't mean they're going to supplant all other handhelds. They're just another part of the mobile computing market.

[Duncan]

Again, I am talking about smartphones, converged devices, not typical phones. There is always going to be a vast and intractible market for ordinary phones. That is completely irrelevant. What I am talking about is the evolution of smartphones.

I am talking bout smartphones too. The vast market for phones in general, however, is significant as it tells us which is the dominant market. Smartphones succeed becuase they are phones. Increasingly PDAs will succeed for the same reason.

I left out Symbian because Nokia's numbers are overinflated by an order of magnitude. Nokia sells many devices that they classify as "smartphones" which are never used for anything more that voice, SMS, and contacts. The only reason that they get away with this is because they pack a Symbian kernel into the device, rather than using proprietary software. There was user survey some time back that showed that even in the tech savvy US and Europe, well over 90% of Nokia "smartphone" users didn't even realize that their phones even had an operating system, or that they were capable of more than basic features. These aren't serious voice/data devices--they're designed mostly to fluff Nokia's marketshare numbers and let them boast about being the world's number one smartphone manufacturer. I wouldn't be surprised if half of the hype around smartphones was paid for by them.

Ah - the grand Nokia conspiracy theory....! Here are two uncomfotable facts - 1) Nokia sells its smartphones on features - people may not use them, but they do buy them for their feature sets; 2) the vast majority of people only use a fraction of the features of any mobile device they have - but that doesn't change what the device is or what it can do.

To suggest that Nokia doesn't sell smartphones because many don't use all the features is, frankly, daft. On that basis we can't call our PDAs Pocket PCs - 'cos most uses them as basic PDAs.

I wonder if most MS smartphone users use more of the features available to them than most Nokia smartphone users?

In any event, I think you just proved my point. The devices that are most popular in the converged market are handhelds which integrate phone functions, not phones that integrate PDA functions. The Treo, the Magician, the XDAs, the upcoming Wizards, etc.. The entire point of buying a smartphone is to have both voice and data functions. To have more robust data functions, they have to be closer to a handheld than a phone--keyboards instead of keypads, high-res touchscreens instead of low-res displays, high-speed wireless instead of bare bones GPRS, real operating systems instead of proprietary firmware.

I most certainly did not prove your point. The devices that are most popular in the converged market are those that best mimic phones. Thus the handheld market is gravitating towards the phone market. You suggest keyboards are an example of moving towards being PDAs - er... both phones and PDAs are rediscovering the keyboard. For phones and converged devices the keyboard is driven not by PDA functions but by the need to make SMS messaging easier - and also to recreate the Blackberry e-mail experience. Other features are desired only if they don't destroy the phone experience.

The vast majority of users don't know or care that even an MS smartphone has an OS - they only care whether they can add and access contacts, get their e-mails on the move, make phones calls etc. Everything else they can do is a bonus - but they don't see an OS, they see features. Most will never add a single piece of software. They are phone users, not PDA users.

That's why I take issue with the insistance that smartphones are going to destroy the handheld market. Smartphones ARE handhelds. They just have a couple of added features. That doesn't make them equivalent to a free camera phone at RadioShack, and it doesn't mean they're going to supplant all other handhelds. They're just another part of the mobile computing market.

Smarthones won't destroy the handheld market - they will simply absorb it until traditional non-converged handhelds are but a tiny niche. This is happening right now. I'll repeat myself - the PDA market is gravitating towarsd the phone market - not the other way round - and advances to phones are building on the phone features, not turning into PDAs.

People want phones - they will be attracted to phones that do more, but they still have to be phones. The sooner we all wake up to that - the better we will be able to cope with the process.

[mscdex]

While we're on the discussion, I was over at brighthand's site tonight and I saw this (http://www.brighthand.com/article/Cellular-Wireless_Handheld_Drawbacks) article. It's a very interesting read and has some valid points IMO.

:)

[JAmerican]

NO QWERTY, No money.

JAmerican