What's your take on the new WM5 UI with 2 softkeys instead on the Command-bar?

[The PocketTV Team]

What's your take on the new WM5 UI with 2 softkeys instead on the Command-bar?

http://www.windowsfordevices.com/files/article015/Figure16.gif

Clearly, MSFT's idea is to make Pocket PC and Smartphones look alike.

But I think that when a Pocket PC screen gets rotated in Landscape mode, it's a but stupid to waste all this screen real-estate for the two softkeys, since:

1) In Landscape orientation, the softkeys are not under the position of the new soft-buttons on the display [except on devices that are natively in Landscape orientation]

2) This is a lot of wasted screen real-estate, especially in Landscape orientation.

What's your take on that?

[Darius Wey]

Clearly, MSFT's idea is to make Pocket PC and Smartphones look alike.

Right. Persistent storage and softkeys have already been implemented in Windows Mobile 5.0, and a revised power on/off system is on their radar. I think in a few years time, we may see unification of the two platforms.

But I think that when a Pocket PC screen gets rotated in Landscape mode, it's a but stupid to waste all this screen real-estate for the two softkeys, since:

1) In Landscape orientation, the softkeys are not under the position of the new soft-buttons on the display [except on devices that are natively in Landscape orientation]

Don't forget that the Pocket PC will still have a touch screen. You'll still be able to tap on the location of the left and right softkey to activate it, regardless of whether it is in the portrait or landscape orientation.

2) This is a lot of wasted screen real-estate, especially in Landscape orientation.

I'm not sure how this is any different to the existing command bar layout seen in pre-Windows Mobile 5.0 devices. The same amount of screen space is used.

[The PocketTV Team]

> Don't forget that the Pocket PC will still have a touch screen. You'll still be able to tap on the location of the left and right softkey to activate it, regardless of whether it is in the portrait or landscape orientation.

Exactly my point:

Pocket PC's have a touch screen, therefore screen real-estate can be used much more efficiently than by jsut having two touch-screen buttons (or menus) in a 320 or 640 pixel wide band at the bottom of the display (in Landscape).

This space could contain several icons or usefull buttons. i.e. That's what a Command-bar was.

> I'm not sure how this is any different to the existing command bar layout seen in pre-Windows Mobile 5.0 devices. The same out of screen space is used.

In pre-WM5, the Command-bar can contain a menu PLUS a number of icons (typically 8 in Portrait, but up to 10 or 12 in Landscape).

10 buttons is quite different from 1 button.

And yes, I know you can create a bar with icons above the new Soft-key bar, but then it reduces even more the screen real-estate, especially in Landscape mode, where the vertical space is very limited.

[Darius Wey]

Exactly my point:

Pocket PC's have a touch screen, therefore screen real-estate can be used much more efficiently than by jsut having two touch-screen buttons (or menus) in a 320 or 640 pixel wide band at the bottom of the display (in Landscape).

This space could contain several icons or usefull buttons. i.e. That's what a Command-bar was.

You win some, you lose some. ;) The aim of the softkeys is to simplify navigation. While you might not be able to fit multiple icons or menus on a single command bar, you can still condense them all within the left and right softkeys. This makes it a breeze to navigate through via a one-handed operation.

Bottom line - this is how Windows Mobile 5.0 will work. From the development end, there's little you can do about it. It's set in stone by Microsoft.

[The PocketTV Team]

> You win some, you lose some. ;) The aim of the softkeys is to simplify navigation. While you might not be able to fit multiple icons or menus on a single command bar, you can still condense them all within the left and right softkeys.

"condense them all" ? Not sure what you mean. In general on WM5 the right Soft-key is the application menu, and the left one is just ONE command, presumably the most common one. So I don't see how you can condense anything in this single command.

All the other commands have to be added in the menu or have to be mapped on some other hardware key or D-pad, or they have to be on another command-bar above, in the form of touch-screen icons.

> This makes it a breeze to navigate through via a one-handed operation.

Not really. There are many apps where you'll have to touch the screen to access commands other than the one mapped on the left soft-key (or in the menu).

Navigation on the smartphone is harder than on the Pocket PC because of the lack of touch-screen, and the limitation of having only the soft-keys and the D-pad.

So even though it is a good idea to provide a way to navigate using only keys (i.e. one-hand operation), it is not always "a breeze" compared to using the much more powerful UI that exists with the touch screen.

> Bottom line - this is how Windows Mobile 5.0 will work. From the development end, there's little you can do about it. It's set in stone by Microsoft.

No, actually not, it is not "set in stone by Microsoft", it is just their guidelines. Application developers can still choose to use old-style command-bars if they want to, on Pocket PC's under WM5.

Which brings us to my original question, that you did not really answer:

Do you really like the new WM5 UI for Pocket PC (which seems to be somehow a step *back* in the Smartphone direction) ?

If so, then, why didn't developers use this type of UI earlier on Pocket PC? They could, the UI tools allow to put only two items in the Command-bar on WM2003 Pocket PC's. But apparently very few developers thought that it was a good idea to do so.

[Darius Wey]

"condense them all" ? Not sure what you mean. In general on WM5 the right Soft-key is the application menu, and the left one is just ONE command, presumably the most common one. So I don't see how you can condense anything in this single command.

Say for example, your typical application has a File menu, a View menu, a Tools menu. You can group them all within the right softkey. Label the right softkey, "Menu", then you can have sub-menus feeding off that soft-key labelled, "File", "View", "Tools", and so on. Play around with some of the standard applications in Windows Mobile 5.0 and you'll see what I mean - notably, Internet Explorer Mobile, Office Mobile and Windows Media Player 10 Mobile.

Not really. There are many apps where you'll have to touch the screen to access commands other than the one mapped on the left soft-key (or in the menu). Navigation on the smartphone is harder than on the Pocket PC because of the lack of touch-screen, and the limitation of having only the soft-keys and the D-pad.

Of course, the Pocket PC will always be one-up on the Smartphone in terms of navigation. The touch screen and D-pad is a real advantage, but I wouldn't call the implementation of the softkeys a backwards step in the attempt to improve the Windows Mobile platform. You just have an extra option if you wish to use it.

No, actually not, it is not "set in stone by Microsoft", it is just their guidelines. Application developers can still choose to use old-style command-bars if they want to, on Pocket PC's under WM5.

Okay, perhaps I used the wrong phrase, but what I meant is that by default, you'll have the user adapting to the softkeys, since every standard application within Windows Mobile 5.0, as well as most other third-party applications which support the new OS, will be using the new softkey layout. By all means, you can lay the UI of your application out differently, but that would require an extra adaptation curve by the end-user. Why deviate from the norm when you can stick to the norm? So you're right, it's not really "set in stone", but that's how things will be by default.

Which brings us to my original question, that you did not really answer: Do you really like the new WM5 UI for Pocket PC (which seems to be somehow a step *back* in the Smartphone direction)?

In all honesty, I do like it. You may see it as a backwards step, but I do not. Perhaps it is a waste of screen real-estate, but arguably, there's no real impairment in functionality. Complexity isn't always the key to success. Take the iPod, for example. ;)

If so, then, why didn't developers use this type of UI earlier on Pocket PC? They could, the UI tools allow to put only two items in the Command-bar on WM2003 Pocket PC's. But apparently very few developers thought that it was a good idea to do so.

You could ask the same about persistent storage, power modes, and the like. To achieve the best result, everything takes time. That's not to say that Windows Mobile 5.0 has everything one could ever hope for. There will always be problems identified and improvements made as a result, and at the end of the day, you'll see those changes being made in future revisions of the Windows Mobile OS.

Back on topic, at that time, it probably didn't make sense to have a two-button layout. With phones now becoming increasingly popular, a lot of users are now getting used to the two-button layout - and I'm not isolating Microsoft phones here, you'll see the same trend with Nokia, Sony Ericsson, and Motorola as well. And with the idea that one day, Pocket PCs and Smartphones may converge and be tagged as a common Windows Mobile device, I only see this as being a step forward, not a step backwards. My two cents.

[The PocketTV Team]

> Say for example, your typical application has a File menu, a View menu, a Tools menu. You can group them all within the right softkey.

The typical Pocket PC application today has a single "Tools" menu with "File", "View" etc implemented as sub-menus.

In that case, nothing has changed, and WM5 is not any better than before.

> Of course, the Pocket PC will always be one-up on the Smartphone in terms of navigation. The touch screen and D-pad is a real advantage, but I wouldn't call the implementation of the softkeys a backwards step in the attempt to improve the Windows Mobile platform. You just have an extra option if you wish to use it.

But Pocket PC already have hardware buttons that can be mapped to useful commands. I agree that it may be simple for the user to have two softkeys immediately under the screen, but I also think that when the screen is rotated to Landscape, this new WM5 UI is a big waste of screen real estate and it does not bring that much bennefit compared to the loss.

> as well as most other third-party applications which support the new OS, will be using the new softkey layout.

I bet you that most third-party applications will have an option to keep the old UI.

> Why deviate from the norm when you can stick to the norm?

When the norm is just what MSFT tells you is better. But developers who don't feel that are allowed to not stick to "the norm" if they feel they can do better than MSFT. And very often MSFT will copy them in the next version if indeed they have a good idea.

Look at the Landscape mode. This was a hack created by developers, at a time where the NORM was to only use the device in Portrait mode, because MSFT decided that Portrait was much better than Landscape.

Many people did not agree, and they implemented various Landscape "hacks", and now Landscape is part of the OS.

> In all honesty, I do like it.


> > If so, then, why didn't developers use this type of UI earlier on Pocket PC? They could, the UI tools allow to put only two items in the Command-bar on WM2003 Pocket PC's. But apparently very few developers thought that it was a good idea to do so.[/quote]

> You could ask the same about persistent storage, power modes, and the like.

I am not discussing those. Of course, those are improvements (IMHO). I was only discussing about the Softkeys, especially in Landscape mode (i.e. when they don't match the actual hardware buttons, and merely use a lot of precious display real-estate.

> To achieve the best result, everything takes time. That's not to say that Windows Mobile 5.0 has everything one could ever hope for. There will always be problems identified and improvements made as a result, and at the end of the day, you'll see those changes being made in future revisions of the Windows Mobile OS.

> I only see this as being a step forward, not a step backwards. My two cents.

You sound like if you are on the MSFT payroll, or have very little critical sense.

I'm not as conviced as you are. Maybe that's because I've been using those devices for almost 10 years. And don't get me wrong, I totally like the 2 soft-keys on my cellphone. But I hate them on my Pocket PC, especially in Landscape mode!

I'd love to hear what OTHERS think.

[Darius Wey]

The typical Pocket PC application today has a single "Tools" menu with "File", "View" etc implemented as sub-menus.

In that case, nothing has changed, and WM5 is not any better than before.

Right, but atypically, where an application has multiple menus, you'd group them under the new softkeys. For example, I've seen CityTime and Spb Finance in their pre-WM5 days and their post-WM5 days. Gone is the complex layout. Everything is now grouped under the softkeys, and navigation is a lot more simple.

I bet you that most third-party applications will have an option to keep the old UI.

I wouldn't say most, but I'm aware of some that do. Feel free to do the same with PocketTV. I can imagine users welcoming both the old and new layout. :)

When the norm is just what MSFT tells you is better. But developers who don't feel that are allowed to not stick to "the norm" if they feel they can do better than MSFT. And very often MSFT will copy them in the next version if indeed they have a good idea.

The norm is what you see in the OS - Microsoft implemented softkeys as the default in Windows Mobile 5.0, so that's the way it is. If you don't like the fact that Windows Mobile 5.0 uses a soft-key layout, then you need not stick with it and/or stick with Windows Mobile 5.0. It's that simple. In a developer's mind, things can always be made one better, and there's nothing wrong with that. Stick with what you're comfortable with. If it catches on, maybe it'll be implemented in future revisions of the OS.

I am not discussing those.

Neither am I, but I was simply highlighting the concept that features come and go, and why one might question why it wasn't present in the past.

You sound like if you are on the MSFT payroll, or have very little critical sense.

Trust me. I'm not paid a single cent by Microsoft. What I've said is my true blue two cents on the softkey layout. I have plenty of annoyances associated with other aspects of the Windows Mobile OS, but since that's not the topic of discussion here, I've not raised it.

I may have seemed very non-critical in this thread, but that's one in a million, since I don't have anything to rant about with regards to the softkey layout. Every other topic, I'll most likely run in carrying a pitchfork.

I'm not as conviced as you are. Maybe that's because I've been using those devices for almost 10 years. And don't get me wrong, I totally like the 2 soft-keys on my cellphone. But I hate them on my Pocket PC, especially in Landscape mode!

Each to their own opinion.

[marcol]

I'd love to hear what OTHERS think.

OK :D

This topic is close to my heart and largely explains why I registered here a few days ago.

A bit of background. I used to use a Treo 600 (had it about 18 months) but swapped it earlier this year for an i-mate JAM. Seemed like a pretty easy choice: the JAM has a bigger, higher-resolution screen, faster processor, more memory all in a smaller, sexier package. I hadn’t done my homework, however, and the JAM didn’t last very long.

The Treo has a great system where almost everything that is tappable can be selected with the five-way navigator; add in an Applications and a Menu button and you get essentially tap-free navigation. The stylus remains unused for days on end. My experience with the JAM, however, was a completely different matter. I tried remapping buttons and button mapping software (Vito), apps with improved button functionality (like PIEPlus), and even tapping with my thumb, but none of this really worked. After several days of frustration I gave up and decided that 1) the WM2003SE UI is stylus dependent, 2) I wanted a smartphone that I could use one-handed, so 3) the JAM had to go. I went back to the 600 (which was replaced with a 650 when it became available in the UK) and resolved to do my homework better in the future.

Clearly, MSFT's idea is to make Pocket PC and Smartphones look alike.


Perhaps, but also isn't the idea is to make PPCs and Smartphones work alike, i.e. to be usable with one hand?

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2005/may05/05-10WindowsMobile5PR.mspx

This space could contain several icons or usefull buttons. i.e. That's what a Command-bar was.


Yep, but (correct me if I’m wrong – I’m certainly no PPC expert) you can’t select those buttons without tapping them because they’re not mapped to hard buttons. That’s the point of the UI change in WM5 isn’t it? Two Command-bar buttons mapped to two physical buttons so you don’t have to pull out the stylus.

The typical Pocket PC application today has a single "Tools" menu with "File", "View" etc implemented as sub-menus.

In that case, nothing has changed, and WM5 is not any better than before.

You obviously know such a massive amount more about the PPC OS than me that I’m almost reluctant to suggest an opposing view, but, again, isn’t WM5 better because the on-screen buttons are mapped to physical buttons and so the user doesn’t need to tap the buttons to activate them?

The aim of the softkeys is to simplify navigation. While you might not be able to fit multiple icons or menus on a single command bar, you can still condense them all within the left and right softkeys. This makes it a breeze to navigate through via a one-handed operation.

I’m hoping so!

[MatthewNCB]

Marcol point i think nails it with them Jam example.

The end goal, is to have a device that can be navigated and operated on, by the use of one hand. The only way to do this has proven to be, to have 2 completely adaptable buttons that can change in functionality, dependant on the current screen. By doing this you enable navigation in far fewer key and thumb strokes.

If you think back to phones that you had before the 2 soft keys. Doing something as simple as writing an SMS, would typically involve 4/5 keystrokes maybe more. On my current phone it is 4 presses and no scrolling.

You can also see this website design, where often the desing is based on reducing the number of clicks to get anywhere on a site, its all the same.

Anyway there is no negative to it, AFAIKS so I don't see how it can be a bad thing.

[ctmagnus]

Imo, softkeys = good! Of course, if they're implemented with a touchscreen, that's even better.

[The PocketTV Team]

Check this interesting related post on BrightHand:

http://discussion.brighthand.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=120637

[hiatus]

I like it, I am one of those people who are in "true VGA" mode all the time, I mastered my one hand navigation using my thumb nail on those tiny small icons, but it is not fast though, so I think it would be better if they have two bigger keys and "true VGA" will make it small enough not to waste the screen real estate, but yet big and easy enough for my nail.

[phreaker18]

nothing much to add other than i just hate the soft buttons....

period.

[IpaqMan2]

After several days of frustration I gave up and decided that 1) [b]the WM2003SE UI is stylus dependent,

Perhaps, but also isn't the idea is to make PPCs and Smartphones work alike, i.e. to be usable with one hand?


Your're right and that was your problem. WM2003SE is still very Stylus depended. Where as WM 5 is not. I am able to access everything in WM 5 from my D-pad just as I have been able to do with the Treo. So at least in WM 5, I think you would of found what you were looking for.

As for the soft keys, they do make navigation easier with the D-Pad. I also like the ability to access menues from the soft keys with the DPad while in other programs.

The only thing I wish I could do is change the application they are associated to while on the start page. I haven't found a way to do this and I'd rather map them to other applications since on my PPC-6700 I have 2 generic buttons, both in landscape and portrait that map's it's self to the soft keys.[/img]