Operating System Prisoners - Smartphone Thoughts Rants On Flashes Gone Bad

[Ed Hansberry]

<a href="http://www.smartphonethoughts.com/index.php?action=expand,8976">http://www.smartphonethoughts.com/index.php?action=expand,8976</a><br /><br /><i>"Somebody has to explain to me why all these new phones coming out soon have an old operating system on them! What am I missing here? It's 2005. In 1969 we sent men to the moon with a computer the size of 2 shoe boxes on board the spacecraft and it was barely more than a four function calculator. Now here we are with these high tech phones and we are prisoners of what the carriers dictate we can have. I have been flashing computer BIOS for longer than I can remember and never turned a machine into a brick. Yet these phones are so fragile if you sneeze while you flash the ROM it is all over. The time has come for phones with a separate phone side so it can always work as a phone even with no operating system installed. A separate side we can install any OS we want so long as it knows how to interact with hooks on the phone side completes it. I haven't written code in years so someone tell me why this can't be done if it can't. We spend so much money on these devices and we are at the mercy of the carriers. Can you imagine if the computer industry started like this?"</i><br /><br />As someone that has bricked more than one device over the years, AMEN! Are you in agreement with Jerry Raia?

[martin_ayton]

I don't particularly like the way carriers do things in terms of software upgrades: I, for example, would love to be able to upgrade WMP9 to WMP10 right now. However, when I paid UK£180 for my O2 Xda2s (aka HTC Blue Angel) I made a choice to go for a subsidised market model where software upgrades are patchy. Goodness knows how much my PPCPE is really worth, or how much it would have cost had the market developed the way the PC market did - with no subsidies - but I'm pretty sure we are talking multiples of the price I paid. As a result, I am not forced to invest time and energy in maintaining the value of an expensive asset, like I have to with my UK£1200 desktop.

So, on the whole, I prefer the model that gives me a great piece of kit at a price I can afford, and which also 'forces' me to upgrade (at a heavily subsidised rate again) to a shiny new great piece of kit every year or so just to get the software upgrade.

New software / OS on an old toy now vs. a whole new shiny toy in a few months. I'll go for the new toy.

[UCCOFFEE]

i think so too, why do we have to have one OS handling everything?
why cant we have 2 seperate OS?

just like 2 device glue together, with 2 seperate screen too... one for phone /one for PDA... that will just fix the problem of bring 2 seperate device...

someone might just need to invent a dual slot bag/case....

I m now using a PDA phone ( o2 xda II mini ), it is certainly a PDA with limited phone functions...

[Deslock]

http://www.smartphonethoughts.com/index.php?action=expand,8976

"...these phones are so fragile if you sneeze while you flash the ROM it is all over. The time has come for phones with a separate phone side so it can always work as a phone even with no operating system installed. A separate side we can install any OS we want so long as it knows how to interact with hooks on the phone side completes it..."
Separating the "phone" OS from the "computer" OS for the purpose of reducing problems seems like a backwards solution to me. Why not create a firmware update process that doesn't place the device at risk? (and make a computer OS that is fast and reliable enough to work on a phone)

Having written that, OS-agnostic phone/PDA hardware would be nice... people could choose PPC/WM, Linux, Palm, Symbian, or whatever platform is most appropriate for their needs.

[Chris Spera]

As someone that has bricked more than one device over the years, AMEN! Are you in agreement with Jerry Raia?

Its all about control, people. The carriers don't want devices that can run amok on their networks. they don't want devices taking up too much bandwidth, so they control what you get and what you can do with it.

Yes it sucks; but as long as the Cell Carriers have this much of a stake in the way things work, they are going to stick their noses in how you do what you do. There's not much we can do about that. Their networks... their rules.

However, if WiMAX takes hold like we think it will over at pocketnow, then this may be a moot point. I was listening to the latest Podcast from Dave's iPAQ, and they brought up an interesting point: If there was a WiMAX tower on the top of every Wal-Mart or every McDonald's restaurant, you could Skype your way around town or use some sort of VoIP client to make calls, effectively putting the Carriers out of business. I think something like that will happen in 5-7 years; and I don't think that the Carriers will be able to react fast enough to prevent it.

Its just a matter of time, kids... its just a matter of time.

[szamot]

It seems it is always the battle of who controls whom. The carriers will always cater to the lowest common denominator, the Joe-Sixpack and his level of understanding of how things "work"

Personally, none of my devices lived longer that a day with the “safe” OS on them. There is a lot of things these devices can do but because the carrier controls what you can and can’t have that leaves a lot of room for creative communities to push these devices to their limits. The best example of this is the WM5 running on i-mate Jams, despite the fact that the official word is that they can’t because of memory limitations. We also know that the Blue Angles can and do run WM5 but again we as customers do not have the option to get this from the official channels, we will simply be forced to buy a new device.

Considering the fact that most of these devices cost as much or more than a entry level laptop our OS options are non existing. Imagine buying a laptop today with Windows ME and be told that you can’t have Windows XP, or Linux running on it. No one in their right mind would buy it, yet people shell out hundreds of dollars for devices that are just like it. To me that’s just plain wrong on a lot of different levels. If this is not monopoly or dictatorship I don’t know what is.

Here is an example of a piece of memory real estate I carved out of my device. We all have it, most of us don’t know about it so we don’t use it. I do however, it is mine I paid for it and as such it belongs to me, and frankly I don’t care if my carrier saves its “important” data there. As far as I am concerned that data is happy on my SD card when needed.

http://stoneraft.com/junk/mem.jpg

happy exploring.

[martin_ayton]

However, if WiMAX takes hold like we think it will over at pocketnow, then this may be a moot point .... you could Skype your way around town or use some sort of VoIP client to make calls, effectively putting the Carriers out of business. I think something like that will happen in 5-7 years; and I don't think that the Carriers will be able to react fast enough to prevent it.

And then we'll all have to pay a lot more up front for our toys because the carriers won't be subsidising them in the hope you'll make enough calls / transfer enough data to make it worth their while.

I know that overall it will probably be cheaper to buy at full cost, up front, and make the savings on the cheap(er) VoIP calls, but the way PPCPEs are going that is going to be a lot of money to find. I want a laptop and a PPCPE, but I'm not sure I could afford both this way.

And the WiMax thing... in the UK it is estimated that with 8 (yes, only 8 ) WiMax stations on tethered balloons, you could get total coverage of the nation. There are airspace issues to resolve, but that kind of investment doesn't sound impossible, does it?

[Damion Chaplin]

• Companies should just sell PPC and SP hardware. It's up to us to make sure it's compatible with what we want to do with it.
• Microsoft should sell us WM directly. Again, up to us to make sure our device is compatible. Microsoft just makes sure it works with the carriers like they make sure it works with PCs (with no tweaking necessary, just like XP).
• Carriers should just sell service. Once again leaving it up to us to make sure it's compatible with our phone.

That would be my preferred setup. Wishful thinking I guess. :?

[WyattEarp]

However, if WiMAX takes hold like we think it will over at pocketnow, then this may be a moot point. I was listening to the latest Podcast from Dave's iPAQ, and they brought up an interesting point: If there was a WiMAX tower on the top of every Wal-Mart or every McDonald's restaurant, you could Skype your way around town or use some sort of VoIP client to make calls, effectively putting the Carriers out of business. I think something like that will happen in 5-7 years; and I don't think that the Carriers will be able to react fast enough to prevent it.

Its just a matter of time, kids... its just a matter of time.

I find that hard to believe. It falls under the same category as electric/hybrid cars. Car manufactures have to much to loss and won't allow it to happen. The same applies to cell phone carriers and manufactures. A few will go up but not enough to cause a revolution.

[WyattEarp]

It seems it is always the battle of who controls whom. The carriers will always cater to the lowest common denominator, the Joe-Sixpack and his level of understanding of how things "work"

Personally, none of my devices lived longer that a day with the “safe” OS on them. There is a lot of things these devices can do but because the carrier controls what you can and can’t have that leaves a lot of room for creative communities to push these devices to their limits. The best example of this is the WM5 running on i-mate Jams, despite the fact that the official word is that they can’t because of memory limitations. We also know that the Blue Angles can and do run WM5 but again we as customers do not have the option to get this from the official channels, we will simply be forced to buy a new device.

Consider the fact the WM5 will store all programs in the available FlashROM of your device (PPC, PPCPE, SmartPhone, etc). Say for example your device only has 17MB of FlashROM out 48MB. You upgrade your device to WM5 and now have 0MB free of FlashROM. What good has upgrading done for you. Not only have you lost all available FlashROM with but you also lost the benefit of the "persistant storage" aspect of the new OS. The OS already can't be lost due to a hard-reset but your apps and files must now remain in RAM. Now you have a device with a shiny new OS but without the key benefits of it. What kind of choice is that? No choice at all to me. So to an extent strict control is necessary.

But I will say that there are some devices that will have enough memory left for some users but not the hard core users. Not with WM5, it just won't go to it's full potential. One problem I see is that if we could get just the OS and not all the MS sugar coated disfunctional software (put word, excel, etc, including manufacturers third-party stuff on a CD making them optional installs) put with it, it would be leaner and more useful to more devices.

[Jerry Raia]

All good points but still, convince me there is some technological reason we can't have what we want here. So far all I see are reasons for not doing it, not reasons it can't be done! I want total control over my device or at least as much as I have over my desktop PC with regard to OS.

[szamot]

[quote="WyattEarp
Consider the fact the WM5 will store all programs in the available FlashROM of your device (PPC, PPCPE, SmartPhone, etc). Say for example your device only has 17MB of FlashROM out 48MB. You upgrade your device to WM5 and now have 0MB free of FlashROM. What good has upgrading done for you. Not only have you lost all available FlashROM with but you also lost the benefit of the "persistant storage" aspect of the new OS. The OS already can't be lost due to a hard-reset but your apps and files must now remain in RAM. Now you have a device with a shiny new OS but without the key benefits of it. What kind of choice is that? No choice at all to me. So to an extent strict control is necessary.

[/quote]

For this reason you gas what is inside the Extended_ROM, format it and now you have extra place to store and run your apps, space that sits doing nothing locked up by the carrier. Imate Jam runs WM5 flawlessly, as does BA but what good will that do to a carrier to sell you a $30 OS upgrade if they can hook you in on for another year or two and a $700 device. The only control here is the Telco and the amount of money they are going to get. Strict control is quite possibely the worse thing that can happen to Tech industry.

[Phillip Dyson]

However, if WiMAX takes hold like we think it will over at pocketnow, then this may be a moot point. I was listening to the latest Podcast from Dave's iPAQ, and they brought up an interesting point: If there was a WiMAX tower on the top of every Wal-Mart or every McDonald's restaurant, you could Skype your way around town or use some sort of VoIP client to make calls, effectively putting the Carriers out of business. I think something like that will happen in 5-7 years; and I don't think that the Carriers will be able to react fast enough to prevent it.



But how does that guarantee the same situation will not arise? Especially if the WiMax infrastructure is built with private investment and not the government.

Some one is still in control. If the governement funds it then we just get a tax increase (which may not be a tax increase). But then they are in total control of what you can do.

Private investment means some company(s) will have to have some way to recoup their investment and make a profit.

Telcos are fighting municipal wifi because they made substantial investments in current infrastructure, sometimes at the prodding of the government who guaranteed them a way to recoup. Take Verizon's monopoly in the DC metro system. They built the infrastructure, so they get a stake to benefit from it.

Its all speculation how WiMax would shake out, but perhaps it will be "6 in one hand, half-dozen in the other".

$.02

[Cybrid]

The fact that all companies cater to the lowest common denominator is correct. Joe sixpack is the average guy with many friends/ clones and as such that is where you can make enough sales to actually make a profit! I know! I know! strange idea as it sounds....the companies are in it for the money. 8O
This is also why they dumb/lock down the devices. P-Excel and P-Word are prime examples and so is most of the OS. You should not need to learn some serious programming skill to dial a number. As a seriously experimental PPC'er I've found that when we run into issues, it is primarily from all the "extra" stuff we do.
Please remember that the average user is unlikely to install perhaps more than two third party apps. Nor own any accessories.
A member of my local PPC group has had a PPC since the Ipaq 3630 and till a year ago did not know what a flash card and a back-up was.
We as a PPCT forum group are an elite, experienced bunch. It would take a newbie who just walked into a retail store a few months to a year before the got to this site and started asking....what else can I do?
I can give you several examples of how disinterested and how illiterate our general population/ brethren are.

I could bet that the first app that nearly anyone, not in IT/ implementing PPC's as a business solution, ......bought is a game!

[ctmagnus]

You should not need to learn some serious programming skill to dial a number.

I still haven't dialed a number on my Smartphone... I just spell the name of the contact. :mrgreen:

[Cybrid]

I still haven't dialed a number on my Smartphone... I just spell the name of the contact. :mrgreen: Yea. Yea. keep bragging :mrgreen:
"please say the name"
"Mom!"
"Dialing work....If this is incorrect please say no!"
"no"
"Dialing Bob....If this is incorrect please say no!"
"no"
"Name not recognized"
"Please try again"
"please say the name"
This is where you turn it off and use the speed dial hotkey. Maybe I have an accent or something....I dunno.

[ctmagnus]

:oops: , I meant I spell the name on the keypad, t9-style. I don't need no stinking voice dialling!

[davea0511]

Personally I find it unbelievable that with the rediculously low cost of Flash that they don't have a "safe rom image" always stored in your phone that you can always go back to for diagnostic or in case you hosed the ROM on an upgrade or installation.

All the cell phone companies are run by idiots.