PDA Fraud on eBay: How Do You Protect Yourself?

[Jason Dunn]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=40178' target='_blank'>http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/for...pic.php?t=40178</a><br /><br /></div>Review team member Stephen Beesley recently went through <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=40178">an ugly experience on eBay</a>. Here's a quote:<br /><br /><i>"Chasing the best value for my money I bought a Dell X50v from a wholesaler in the US. The seller was (still is I guess…) an ebay power seller with plenty of positive feedback and, going off the comments, lots of happy customers all around the globe. The price was good so in I went. Now to start with everything went just fine with lots of communication from the seller, but then my first hurdle: he used Bidpay as his payment method and unfortunately Bidpay does not take Mastercard (I had never thought to check before bidding – bad me). So that only left me a direct bank transfer – I know I know, and yes all my instincts told me that bank transfer might not be a good idea. But, there was all that positive feedback and he did seem to have a good track record etc., etc… Well as you have probably already guessed that is where everything came unstuck on the deal..."</i><br /><br />I've been using eBay for buying and selling since 1999, so I'm an "old timer", and in general I've had good experiences. One thing I have to keep remembering to do is to look at the feedback details of the seller before buying, rather than just the percentage value, because many of these guys build up positive feedback over time then defraud a dozen people simultaneously while they still have loads of positive feedback. What kinds of strategies do you employ on eBay? And have you had any horror stories like Stephen's?<br /><br />And in case you're curious, the unscrupulous crook that ripped off Stephen is <b>Gurinder P. Singh of Frisco, Texas</b>, also known as <a href="http://feedback.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback&userid=clearcost&iid=5769271946&frm=284">Clearcost</a>. Stay clear if you see that name and location on any future eBay auction!

[SteveHoward999]

I stay away from anyone that takes BidPay. BidPay seems to be set up just for fraud - it sends a cash money order for goodness sake!

And who on earth does not take Mastercard?

--

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

Hindsight is always 20/20 I guess, but for major purchases, I'll always ensure that Paypal is there with buyer protection enabled (only available with certain sellers of a specific standing). Feedback is, of course, very important, but I'll also check if the seller has solid experience selling the type of item that I am buying from them (or at least, check if they have experience selling items in the same price range).

For example, a few months ago, I spent over $300 on a new cellphone. In this case, I bought the phone specifically from a seller who has a positive history of cellphone sales.

Understanding who the seller is is pretty key as well. How reachable do they make themselves? Do they have their own website where contact information and purchases are often made?

I could be mistaken about Stephen's experience, but if indeed all the things Stephen is mentioning is true (seller unreachable, bad email address, no answers to anyone including eBay, etc.), then I would think that eBay would move to ban that member... and if that seller has been a long-time eBay seller, than a ban would be sufficiently painful punishment as they would have to start from scratch (under a different name) to re-establish their reputation.

[emuelle1]

I just plain stay away from Ebay. If my wife is adamant that I use Ebay, I tell her to do the research and handle the auctions.

It just seems that more and more, Ebay is turning into a den of thieves. People now seem to be charging ridiculously high shipping fees, and any item I'm interested in already seems to be bid over the price of what you've pay in the store.

Something that really ticked me off the last time I went on Ebay is people using "not" in their item description. I was looking for the Nokia 6620 cell phone, and I got returns like "Nokia 3320 NOT 6620, 6230..." How much of a scumbag do you have to be to do that?

[Jason Dunn]

Something that really ticked me off the last time I went on Ebay is people using "not" in their item description.

Yeah, that drives me nuts as well. :evil:

[Rod3]

This is why I've never used eBay to buy or to sell. It's a pity; I'm sort of a PDA collector, and have tons of stuff to sell, but I'm scared to do it. I might use the UPS store to do it for me, but I lose lots of money paying them off that way. (the commission is pretty high) Sad, sad fact. There's just no good way to deal with used stuff. I hate that my really nice stuff I don't use anymore just gathers dust when someone could use it. :cry:

[Scotty]

I was talking to my brother about buying a pda on ebay and mentioned to him about watching for "positive feedback". (He's in marketing and sales) He told me that he doesn't believe all that much in the feedback. He's been approached several times with the opportunity to "buy" positive feedback on ebay.
I'd never heard of that before. But it would answer how "rip off" people get positive ratings.
Has anyone heard of this before? I quess it could be possible now days.
just my 2cents.....
Scott

[palmsolo]

A good resource I use all the time now is Craigslist. I bought my PSP from a guy and sold some other things here. This gives you a face-to-face contact with someone, payment methods are direct and flexible at times, and there are no fees. I was very surprised how fast people respond to Craigslist ads and how much stuff is available.

I also have sold all my PDAs in the last year using the discussion forums on sites like Pocket PC Thoughts to avoid some fees and give buyers a better deal. Plus, I can generally count on my old devices going to good homes when sold to someone who geeks out on these sites like I do :D

[GoldKey]

I'd never heard of that before. But it would answer how "rip off" people get positive ratings. Has anyone heard of this before? I quess it could be possible now days. just my 2cents.....
Scott

You can buy positive feedback. There are bunches of auctions for items that go for like a dime with the product being just an e-mail of some document or other. Both sides leave positive feedback on the transaction and thus positive feedback is purchased. A tip I use is to actually look at the transactions for some of the recent feedback. If they are all for really cheap items and you are buying something expensive, watch out.

I also look at how long they have been a member. For example, my feedback is in the 70's, but someone can see that I have been a member for like 7 years and I think that gives a certain peace of mind.

Finally, I see if they are all buys or all sells. If they are a balance of each or mostly buys, you probably have someone acting as an individual. If they are all sells, you have someone running a business. So I take this into account when evaluating them on the above.

[SteveHoward999]

Let's keep this in perspective though.

Yes there are people out there running nusinesses through eBay - good for them (and us) if they do it right.

Yes there are crooks out there - but there are crooks everywhere.

eBay have shot us in the foot by increasing their charges, 'forcing' the unscrupulous to boost their post and packaging fees to stupid levels. I probably spend more time checking out postal costs on items I might bid for than anything else now.

There are still great bargains to be had, in spite of the less than scrupulous leeches that have sprouted over time.

I have been using eBay for a few years and, so far, have had no bad experiences. I even bought a motorbike through eBay! between us my wife and I have easily spent $10,000 on a total of around 200 items. So far so good.

Yes be careful out there, but it ain't as bad as people are sometimes painting it - buying on eBat really is a matter of applying a little wisdom, and (sadly) a bucket of mistrust to your buying choices.--

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

It just seems that more and more, Ebay is turning into a den of thieves. People now seem to be charging ridiculously high shipping fees, and any item I'm interested in already seems to be bid over the price of what you've pay in the store.
Much of this is true, though at the very least, you'll know about the shipping up-front and today's bidders are getting saavier to this. Nowaydays, I find that sellers who require high shipping charges usually have to pay for it in the form of a lower winning bid price. Conversely, sellers who offer free shipping usually end up selling at a higher bid. In the end, I find the overall cost tends to be pretty consistent.

As for getting a good price, buyers should be aware of how much an item would cost if they buy retail (either bricks-n-mortars store or an online store such as Amazon). There are times where the eBay option will be more expensive.

That said, eBay is a critical part of my buying patterns. With nearly every gadget I buy, I will almost always check the going eBay price first and compare. Just in the past month, I've saved myself over $200 (roughly paying about 55% of the original price) on about a half-dozen items compared to the retail price (three wireless mouse/keyboards, 2 PSP games, one PC game).

Of course, YMMV, but it's certainly hard for me to argue those results!

[emuelle1]

My wife has a knack for Ebay. I've never been good at it. Before I met her, I would typically pay more for some items just to be able to buy everything in one store. It wasn't bright; but it's the way I am.

My wife told me she saw a woman's shirt going for $1, with $20 in shipping.

[peterawest]

This is why I've never used eBay to buy or to sell. It's a pity... There's just no good way to deal with used stuff. I hate that my really nice stuff I don't use anymore just gathers dust when someone could use it.

Rod, you might check to see if there is a iSOLD It store in your area. It's true that they will take a pretty penny for their services, but at least you get to sell the stuff you have sitting around in your closet.

Check here:

http://www.i-soldit.com/locations.asp

[emuelle1]

Does anyone know if Amazon Marketplace is any good? I've bought books there, but never any other product. The sellers, for the most part, have been honest people. We bought one DVD, and the case came empty. I blasted the seller in an email, and it turned out that the case was laying on the counter and his sister took the DVD out to watch, and without knowing this he mailed it. At least, I had no reason not to believe him. We did get the DVD promptly.

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

My wife told me she saw a woman's shirt going for $1, with $20 in shipping.
I totally agree that the shipping costs can be outrageous, but the shipping costs by itself only tells part of the story.

I just bought two PSP games in which the seller (who only lived about 30 miles away from me) charged me $20 shipping (the actual shipping cost to him ended up being only $2.50). However, the final bidding price was only $21, meaning the total cost came out to $41. Was the shipping cost outrageous? Absolutely, but in the end, I paid $41 for a couple of games that would have cost me around $86 after tax at my local Best Buy. I also took the shipping cost into account, knowing that I didn't want to pay more than $50 for both items, meaning my max bid would be capped at $30. So even with high shipping costs, you can save a lot of money. You just need to know where to draw the line... it also helps if you can wait until the waning seconds before throwing down your highest bid. ;)

[Rod3]

Thank you, peterawest, I'll check into that. I've been looking at the Amazon selling place, too. I do have a couple of really nice PPCs that I could let go, so I think I'll find a spot to sell them pretty soon. Since I've zeroed in on my Dell as my main brain, I think it's time to let some of these others find a new home. I'd never heard of iSOLD it.

[JamesM]

I've never used eBay - it just seems daunting to me and I don't have the time to come up to speed. So I tried www.usedhandhelds.com. I listed the items I wanted to sell (Jornada 568, Jornada 680 plus accessories) and described their condition. They gave me a price within 2 hours that I thought was fair (perhaps less than eBay, but less work). The email I received from them said something about the prices are estimates and based on the condition of the units. I shipped the goods to them per instructions and had a check in less than a week. Here's the kicker - the amount of the check was for more than they quoted me. I don't know if it's a case of "underpromise and overdeliver", but how many businesses these days give us more than they promise?
-James

[Rod3]

I've never used eBay - it just seems daunting to me and I don't have the time to come up to speed. So I tried www.usedhandhelds.com.
-James

Now, this is a great idea, too! Thanks, James!

[Kurt Hunciker]

(This was also posted under the "Shafted on Ebay" topic.)

I was also burned on Ebay.

I lost my Axim X50v a couple of weeks ago (it has since been recovered), and I thought I would save money by purchasing a replacement on Ebay.

The seller was in the U.K., but his feedback was uniformly positive. His posting stated that he would consider a lower price than the "Buy It Now" price, and when I e-mailed him, we reached a deal. (I later found out from Ebay that this results in the transction being off Ebay, which means that Ebay will do nothing in the event of a fraud.)

The only red flag was that the seller asked for the money through Western Union rather than PayPal. I guess I was too trusting, so I wired him the money.

After no Axim arrived, I e-mailed the seller who never responded. I then contacted Ebay to complain. Ebay informed me that it would take no steps to help me since the transaction was off Ebay.

After I sent another e-mail to Ebay asking that the seller at least be banned from Ebay, Ebay informed me that the "seller" was somebody who gained access to the password of a legitimate Ebay user in order to post the fraudulent sale. :evil:

All I could do at this point was to notify Yahoo (the "seller's" e-mail account that he used to communicate with me was from Yahoo) and ask them to block his e-mail account.

I learned an expensive lesson. I will never engage in another transaction on Ebay except through PayPal. Also, for anything that is moderately expensive, I will only purchase through a "Power Seller".

[emuelle1]

Rather than retype my Ebay burn story, here's a link to a page on my blog http://emuelle1.blogspot.com/2005/06/i-hate-ebay.html for anyone interested. I probably wrote about it in the other Ebay thread a couple of months ago.

[Damion Chaplin]

A good resource I use all the time now is Craigslist.


Huh! How is it that you've had a more positive experience on craigslist than on eBay? I've had the exact opposite experience. I have bought numerous things off craigslist and ebay, and I can tell you with certainty that the proportion of scammers to legit sellers is waaay higher on craigslist. Craigslist has a bunch of people with offers like 'iPaq 4150, $150, must sell by 6pm tonight'. Huh... Jonesing are we? Gotta have that fix, eh? Got a debt to pay tonight (so you can get your next fix)? Shady in the extreme...

Only once in over 150 transactions have I encountered a scammer on eBay, but I have easily wasted 3 hours + of my time trying to meet up with a flakey craigslist seller in the freezing rain in November. It was so aggravating that I went home a posted a warning about his post!

Also, should the product prove defective, eBay will give you some recourse with the seller. With craigslist, you're SOL.

Besides, the clincher is that eBay has lots of stuff you just can't find elsewhere (like movie props).

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

I learned an expensive lesson. I will never engage in another transaction on Ebay except through PayPal. Also, for anything that is moderately expensive, I will only purchase through a "Power Seller".
Wow. I'm really sorry to hear of your ordeal.

As you discovered, eBay has no control over offline deals. So even in the few instances I've come to an offline agreement with a seller, I always insist that we tie the transaction back through eBay (in fact, I believe it's against eBay policies to conduct offline business with a seller/customer in which you have no prior relationship).

My hx4705 was actually purchased on eBay last November. The seller was not an experienced seller, so his auction actually ended with no bids. I then contacted him via email and eventually talked to him over the phone (I wanted to hear from him directly why he was selling the unit). After being satisfied of his intent, I made a verbal deal with him to purchase the unit for $540 with shipping included, but told him that we MUST close the deal using eBay and the payment must be conducted via PayPal. So he re-enlisted the item with a buy-it-now price, sent me the link, and I promptly ended the auction.

I know these steps still do not provide me with 100% protection, but at the very least, I had both an eBay &amp; PayPal trail for the transaction.

Note that there were several other auctions offering the hx4705 for $450-500, but most of them were from zero-rated sellers or sellers asking for non-PayPal payment. AVOID THEM LIKE THE PLAGUE!!!

[TMann]

Well, after reading this thread earlier today, I was going to post about how I'd had over 30 transactions on eBay and for the most part, they've all gone just fine...but THEN...

I received a Sprint phone that I had ordered from a seller that had 100% positive feedback. The phone was listed as being "Brand New" and "never used." When I received the phone, it was obviously very used; it had numerous scratches on it, plus a few pictures that it's previous owner had taken with the cameraphone. Worse than that though, was the fact that the phone arrived in a padded envelope, with absolutly no accessories whatsoever. You would think that a "brand new" phone would come with all of the usual accessories, but apparently not in this case.

The annoying thing is that I paid about $180 (including shipping,) for this phone. If I walked into a Sprint store today, I would probably pay about $220 to $230 (including tax.) Is the money that I saved worth the risk of receiving a defective/used product? I guess that is something that everyone will have to decide for themselves, but I'm starting to feel that the lower price of online transactions may not be worth the risk...

TMann

[jeisner]

I always buy off people who allow me to pay through paypal, I have only ever had a problem once on ebay (never received goods) and paypal refunded me, it was their problem to chase down the seller then....

I have a workmate here who got ripped off buying a phone off ebay, the seller had heaps of positive feedback for small items and then listed a whole heap of 'new' phones and ripped 20 odd people off... The worst part is my friend had already lost his money and he managed to contact some of the other buyers who had been ripped off, yet ebay wouldn't suspend the guys account (he still had 4 auctions going)... He then posted about the freud on the ebay forums, ebay deleted his thread claiming that is not allowed (you can continue to rip people off but they can't post about it)... Ebay did not suspend the sellers account until my friend got the local police involved...

He paid the money direct into the sellers account but that hasn't helped him get the money back as the seller withdraw all the money he got from the auctions and vanished, the police still haven't found him...

Moral of the story even if you have the sellers full bank details it is still not a safe way to pay, paypal in my experience seems much safer for the buyer/ For the seller they need to keep certain details like proof of delivery (registered mail) to be safe...

[wkspear]

I've been an eBay member several years. I went there for the feedback, having been ripped off by something called "iPaq Today" or something (it's been a while), ostensibly based in Houston, Texas.
I just found out about people hacking into accounts from someone who got ripped off despite almost 100 percent positive feedback. Of course, it was someone else assuming that seller's identity. I guess we shouldn't be surprised that folks can and will use technology this way. But what I have noticed is that they always prefer some sort of alternative to PayPal for payment. That may be a warning sign in some cases.

[lapchinj]

When I finally decided to buy an Dell X50V I went price hunting first on Pricegrabber then on EBay. I could have saved around $100 but in the end I remembered all the horror storied I've heard over time and the problems I've had (problems with warranties). If I'm buying an item for $400-500 then I must be able to send that item back under warranty if something is not right. Maybe I just don't know how to tell a good from bad seller (or rather the shades in between). Anyway for piece of mind I bought my PDA through Dell and have not regretted it.

For now I save my buying on EBay for things I can't find any other place. I first go to Pricegrabber and check out the prices for the places I frequent the most and were I've had good experiences (and there are 5 or 6 that I use that have great prices, shipping, and service). None of the etailers that I frequent were selling the X50V for a price to buy from them so I decided to go to Dell.

I try and stay away from EBay. I think that it's very true what emuelle1 wrote about eBay turning into a den of thieves. Even though Ekkie mentioned that buyers are getting a little more savvy I don't buy there often enough to be able to become a street smart. All I want to do is go to a site and buy something and maybe save a little money if possible and not have to tip-toe through shark infested waters that I'm not familiar with just wondering if this time I'll get bitten.

Jeff-

[Macguy59]

I've been pretty lucky I guess. I have over 70 transactions so far and the worst I've had happen is the seller cancelling the auction AFTER I won it (obviously they were hoping for a higher winning bid). The biggest scam on ebay IMO is the outragous shipping fees being charged in most auctions. I tell people to look at that before worrying about the seller's feedback.[/i]

[Macguy59]

it also helps if you can wait until the waning seconds before throwing down your highest bid. ;)\

Behold the power of broadband :mrgreen: 100% of the auctions I've won have come with the winning bid being submitted with 6 seconds left with a 2nd browser window open with a higher bid just-in-case someone is trying to snipe me.

[TMann]

100% of the auctions I've won have come with the winning bid being submitted with 6 seconds left with a 2nd browser window open with a higher bid just-in-case someone is trying to snipe me.

Ahh...a second browser windows. So that's the secret, huh? Hmm...I'll have to try that. :devilboy:

TMann

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

it also helps if you can wait until the waning seconds before throwing down your highest bid. ;)
Behold the power of broadband :mrgreen: 100% of the auctions I've won have come with the winning bid being submitted with 6 seconds left with a 2nd browser window open with a higher bid just-in-case someone is trying to snipe me.
I'm not sure I understand the point of the 2nd window. I just figure out what my max bid is and then throw that down in the final seconds. It'll never result in you paying more than you need to as the winning bidder; at the same time, you shouldn't have any regrets if you get outbid b/c the winning bid would have been higher than what you were willing to pay. For example, with the PSP games, my bid was $30 but b/c the 2nd highest bidder was $20.50, so I ended up only paying $21, but by bidding $30, I protect my position against anyone else willing to bid up to $30 during those final seconds.

For anyone wondering why anyone would wait until the final seconds, the reason is that by nature, most other people only bid high enough to secure the top position. So if the auction price is currently $20, they'll put in $20.50 just to get the top spot. The mistake they make is that they don't consider what's the max they're willing to pay and then they get swiped in the final seconds by a bid that's less than that max.

Now, this strategy assumes that you're present in front of your computer as the auction is winding down. If I can't be there during that time, then I'll just throw down my highest bid when I can and just live with the consequences. I just have to live with the possibility that someone I've outbid will have 2nd thoughts and reach higher than me.

Final advice, if anyone sees an item that they like that has zero bids so far (assuming you've done all the other homework and feel the seller is legitimate), you might as well put in the minimum opening bid. Why? If for some reason you forget to track back before the end of the auction, there still might have been a chance that no one else bid on the item which means you would have won. If someone outbids you later, just follow the same steps as before, waiting until the latest possible time to put in your max bid.

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

The annoying thing is that I paid about $180 (including shipping,) for this phone. If I walked into a Sprint store today, I would probably pay about $220 to $230 (including tax.) Is the money that I saved worth the risk of receiving a defective/used product? I guess that is something that everyone will have to decide for themselves, but I'm starting to feel that the lower price of online transactions may not be worth the risk...
Terry, a few things pop into my mind immediately. First, did you raise an issue with the seller? Sellers who have 100% positive feedback are usually VERY protective about maintaining that perfect score. It just might be possible that he unintentionally mixed up your order somehow. As long as you haven't yet left feedback yet, you still have some degree of leverage over that seller. If the seller doesn't respond, I'd take it up with eBay and/or PayPal.

Lastly, your final point is a very valid one. For more expensive items, the risk is obviously higher, and a difference of 10-20% may not be worth it.

[Stephen Beesley]

Well, I am not sure if to be flattered or a bit embarrassed by Jason putting my saga on the front page :oops:

No that is not really true - I am glad to get the name of the scumbag who ripped me off to a larger audience :snipersmile:

I must say that I am trying not to let this experience sour me with regards to ebay - I have previously used it to buy and sell a number of PDA and associated bits without any dramas. I will just make sure I stick to auctions with paypal next time!

BTW as you will see if you happen to check the second link in my sig, I am after a HP 5450 to fill my immediate gadget lust untill I can afford an Axim. So if any of you happen to have an old 5450 (or similiar) laying about and would be willing to sell it for a reasonable price (and ship it to Oz) let me know.

Regards
Stephen

[bjornkeizers]

This is exactly why I never deal with Ebay. I did buy a few things a couple years back, but Ebay was a different place back then. Now you can get scammed six ways from sunday, even by these 'power sellers' with 100% feedback. And let's not even talk about the shills, the snipers, the inflated shipping to dodge fees, and my personal favorite: auctions that get yanked before time because of low bids...

No, you won't see me on Ebay again any time soon.

[hewlpac]

Beware of long time sellers. Most if not all have multiple accounts (set up when there were no controls). All their auctions magicaly sell for about the same price (since their other fake accounts are used to bid up the price)

[Jason Dunn]

This is why I've never used eBay to buy or to sell.

Well, from a seller's point of view, you have almost nothing to lose, so this story shouldn't stop you. And you have to keep in mind these stories are the minority. Give it a try with something small. ;-)

[Jason Dunn]

Beware of long time sellers. Most if not all have multiple accounts (set up when there were no controls). All their auctions magicaly sell for about the same price (since their other fake accounts are used to bid up the price)

Interesting. I've been eBaying since 1999 and always thought that as a seller my long-time use would be of comfort to buyers, not the other way around. Myself, I'd rather buy from someone who's been around for a while.

[Rod3]

Myself, I'd rather buy from someone who's been around for a while.

Which is one reason I'm reluctant to start. With no prior selling or buying experience, I wouldn't get bids, or would have to let something go for a rock bottom price. Kind of like credit. You need it to get it. :?

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

I'll be completely honest... I don't totally understand all the complaints about shipping fees. The shipping fees should always be known up front. I certainly don't even bid if the shipping fee is not listed. If the seller tries to change the shipping fee after the auction is complete (which I've yet to see myself), you have legitimate reason to withdraw and report the seller. For all other auctions, the bidder has the ultimate authority of not bidding if the shipping fee is too high. Additionally, to make things easier, you can easily customize your search results to display the shipping fee along with the bid price.

Are there unscrupulous sellers with multiple accounts looking to jack up bids? Probably. Are there sellers who may withdraw an auction before it's complete because of low bids? Sure. Does either condition lead to you getting "scammed". No. Does either happen often? I've won enough bids at great prices, that I'd have to say no.

You could also simplify the experience by strictly looking for "buy-it-now" prices. I've found many great deals that way. It can save you both time and money.

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

Which is one reason I'm reluctant to start. With no prior selling or buying experience, I wouldn't get bids, or would have to let something go for a rock bottom price. Kind of like credit. You need it to get it. :?
Jason's advice is good. Start small. Sell some cheaper / simpler items first. Buyers are less discriminant with cheaper purchases. Once you've built up a few good feedbacks from buyers, you can start to work your way upwards. If you want to sell more expensive items right away, then set the bid to start at a higher price that you're willing to accept. You might not get bids, but it might be worth the listing fee (which is small) to try it.

Also, I find that it's helpful if you also state why you're selling it. Buyers are naturally skeptical of anyone selling used items, but if you state the reasons, they might be more willing to trust its legitimacy. For example, once I bought a external TV receiver for my PC but then later found it was incompatible with my cable signal. I stated that fact in my auction (with details as to why it was incompatible) and was able to sell it for more than I bought it for. Be honest about imperfections as well, it'll lend credibility to your claims that it functions perfectly (assuming it does). Finally, presentation counts. Learn to use HTML and make your page look professional. Take images of the device from the manufacterer's website and state all the specs.

[foebea]

Thanks much for this topic. It is an important awareness raising one. Unfortunatly it is a week late for me. :)

I was just browsing and found something to catch my fancy with a few seconds left at 9$. I threw in a 10$ bid and picked it up.

It has been about a year since my last purchase, and at that time items cost what they cost and shipping was only the cost of shipping.

This item i just got was maybe half a pound, but it had 60$ in shipping, and that fact was hidden in the text, neither at the top or the bottom, took me a minute to realize why the win price was 70 instead of 15 or 16. ack. that hurt my wallet more than i thought it would. the item is probably worth that amount, but i got it not because i needed it, but because the apparent cost was so low.

Now I know. And knowing is half the battle.

[Stephen Beesley]

This is why I've never used eBay to buy or to sell.

Well, from a seller's point of view, you have almost nothing to lose, so this story shouldn't stop you. And you have to keep in mind these stories are the minority. Give it a try with something small. ;-)

I have to agree with Jason. I for one will not be letting my experience keep my off ebay in future (particularly for selling unwanted stuff), I will just have to remember to be more careful.....

[phs]

... and if that seller has been a long-time eBay seller, than a ban would be sufficiently painful punishment as they would have to start from scratch (under a different name) to re-establish their reputation.

Oh? We're talking of fraud here. And what punishment is fit for bank robbers, take away their guns and getaway cars, so they'll have to start from scratch?

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

... and if that seller has been a long-time eBay seller, than a ban would be sufficiently painful punishment as they would have to start from scratch (under a different name) to re-establish their reputation.
Oh? We're talking of fraud here. And what punishment is fit for bank robbers, take away their guns and getaway cars, so they'll have to start from scratch?
We could probably start a whole new topic on how unscrupulous sellers should be handled, but I'll not dive into that here. I will say that while sellers can set up new eBay accounts under different names, getting around PayPal is trickier, which is why many of them start resorting to other payment means.

My point, though, was that the feedback system is central to how buyers and sellers are held accountable within eBay. Is it perfect? No. But a long-standing seller with excellent feedback does NOT want to start over with a new account and zero feedback just so they can rip someone off of a few hundred dollars! They will more than pay that amount back just trying to rebuild their reputation. In my experience, the difference in final bid price between long-standing sellers and low-feedback and/or non-PayPal sellers can be quite substantial. If those sellers are accustomed to pushing major volumes or selling high-priced items, that difference adds up fast! Not to mention that they may lose any established customer base they may have built up by starting over.

IMO, Jason is right. Having a long-standing reputation is treated as a positive by customers. Sellers know this and from what I've seen personally, many of them will do everything they can to protect that reputation.

[palmsolo]

While I agree that PayPal is a good requirement to look for in an auction, I also want to caution people about that as well. I sold my iPAQ 2210 to someone on ebay a couple years ago and promptly received payment via PayPal within a couple hours. I then received an email from the buyer asking me to ship it to him in Germany. We then had a couple of emails exchanged and everything seemed legitimate, I mean I had the money in my account and he was very responsive via email and his English was even quite good. I then sent off my package and the next day received an email from PayPal that they were taking the money from me because this person had hijacked a legitimate PayPal account. I tried to get the US Post Office to track and retrieve my package, but they failed and I was out over $300.

If you do recieve a PayPal payment try to make sure the person has a Verified address to ship it to. I now also ask for phone numbers for expensive items I sell and give the person a call to verify things are legitimate.

I am a savvy buyer, but even I have now been ripped off 3 times for about $800 over the last 6 years of buying.

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

If you do recieve a PayPal payment try to make sure the person has a Verified address to ship it to.
Great tip! Paypal won't provide any protection to the seller unless you're shipping to a verified address. This explains why.

I now also ask for phone numbers for expensive items I sell and give the person a call to verify things are legitimate.
How does this help? What prevents the hijacker from just giving you his/her own phone number? Or do you ask specific questions over the phone to determine legitimacy?

[palmsolo]

I ask specifics and also do a reverse lookup on SuperPages.com to see if the phone number and address match up. I don't think someone who is trying to fraud you would give out a legitimate phone number anyway.

[Hal Goldstein]

I'm glad early in the thread our www.usedhandhelds.com site was mentioned (where we paid a seller more than what we offered after we saw the condition of the equipment).

We actually have a page the compares buying and selling on ebay and usedhandhelds.com: http://www.usedhandhelds.com/usedhh_bayvsus.asp
Bottom line is that we pay a little less for units and we sell them for a little more than what you can get on ebay. However, you know who you are dealing with (we've been in business 20 years), we offer returns, and overall there is less hassle and risk.

Most of our business actually has to do with handhelds (Jornada 720's, NEC 900's, and the older HP 200LX DOS Palmtops), although we do buy and sell Pocket PCs and accessories.

Hal Goldstein
CEO
Thaddeus Computing
Publisher, Pocket PC magazine and UsedHandhelds.com

[JMac]

I've been using ebay since Feb 1999, &amp; have 116 transactions with positive feedback, 99 of which count (the others are repeats from the same sellers). All were purchases; I've never sold anything there. Two transactions were what I would consider "bad" ones. One was a program that was burned onto a CD - I threw it out; the other was a decent product advertised as the latest model which were actually three or four years old - but unused. Neither cost more than $20 US.

I only purchase from those with 98.5% positive feedback, over a reasonably long period of time. Like two years or longer.

I never make large purchases there. I only pay via PayPal, mostly using a credit card account as funding. I'm a verified member of PayPal, and a Verisign ID certified member of ebay. Sellers are pretty darned certain that I am who I say, based on the confirmations and verifications along with my 100% positive feedback.

I've never left a negative or neutral feedback, but with items and/or transactions that disappointed me I always send an email to the seller telling them what I think, and then leave no feedback at all. Leaving negative feedback will almost surely get you a retaliatory negative feedback. It may be wrong, untruthful, etc. But it will never be removed by ebay unless you reach a mutual agreement with the other party. Even then, it will always show that you HAD a negative feedback removed by agreement.

Most fraudulent sellers operate in a similar fashion:

Fairly large ticket items; $100 to $1,500 USD.

They will be a short-time seller; no more than a month, two at the most.

They WILL have all positive feedback - right up to when the first user defrauded gives their feedback. This usually takes several weeks as most users don't want to believe they were had and try in vain to resolve it with the seller. The seller will usually respond to emails just to keep the negative feedback away for a few weeks. This way they can hook a few more users.

If you check their feedback carefully, you'll see that those giving feedback often signed up right around the same time as the seller, and posted their feedback within minutes or hours of the end of the transaction. They could not have possibly received the items yet - it's all fake.

You may also see genuine users leaving positive feedback. Check those auctions; they are usually for very inexpensive items - packs of flower seeds for $0.50 are common. These are quick, easy to complete and mail sales that can generate some true positive feedback, so as to confuse you just enough to keep corresponding with the seller instead of writing it off and reporting them and leaving negative feedback too soon.

My advice is to keep your purchases to smaller items that you can't find elsewhere online. Only buy from longtime members with VERY high positive feedback ratings. 98.5 is as low as I will go. Use PayPal with Purchase Protection. You must have your bank account attached to PayPal for this. Or fund PayPal with a credit card account, but first confirm that it has a buyer assurance plan AND that they will back PayPal purchases with that plan. (American Express used to refuse these purchases but were beaten in court over this and now do cover PayPal transactions).

Never purchase anything from a new member, or one who changed their user name recently, unless it is a small purchase and you are prepared to accept it if they don't come through. Even non-fraudulent newbies often find out that the product supply, packaging, and shipping issues are more than they can handle. I don't need for them to learn on me!

Be careful out there!! :D

[catatonix]

Great thread!

I've been on Ebay since 1999 (like others here) - and am currently nursing a 100% feedback rating after 160-odd transactions. Since the majority of what I buy isn't normally too expensive, I haven't had any real catastrophes...yet! But the one time I ignored someone's feedback (he'd had 3 negs in 4 months!!) was the time I got ripped off - although AU$20 didn't break the bank or the heart too badly. A little common-sense, combined with a little courtesy and a little patience will almost always pay dividends.

And even though there are many scams out there, the majoprity of Ebay users ARE honest. And spending time in their user forums will help you become familiar with some of the many scams that tend to operate there. To be fore-warned is to be fore-armed!

[kramerica]

I wish I had seen this a few days ago! I ordered a Treo and it came activated to some other guy's account, so I have no way signing this up with Sprint. Oh well, I guess I learned a $500 lesson. :evil: