Where PalmSource Went Wrong

[Ed Hansberry]

<a href="http://www.eweek.com/article2/0%2C1759%2C1819265%2C00.asp">http://www.eweek.com/article2/0%2C1759%2C1819265%2C00.asp</a><br /><br />Recall that PalmSource is the operating system side of the Palm family, which is where I have always had my complaints with the PalmOS system. Much of the hardware over the years has been compelling and innovative, especially early HandSpring devices, Handera/TRG Pro devices and the later Sony models. All the cool hardware in the world though doesn't make up for an operating system lacking in core functionality.<br /><br />Guy Kewney at eWeek has a similar take on the platform but goes all the way back to the US Robotics days to understand not only where it went wrong, but why.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/hansberry/2005/20050510-pa1monecool.gif" /><br /><br />This is somewhat related to my May 11 "<a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/index.php?topic_id=39950">pa1mOne Figuring It Out</a>" post. By the way, if you haven't heard it, you should listen to <a href="http://www.1src.com/?m=show&id=1039">Jeff Kirvin's 1src podcast</a> on the LifeDrive where he blasts me and a number of our readers that responded in my thread. According to Jeff, Garnet (PalmOS5) and pa1mOne can already do everything Windows Mobile can and <i>Windows Mobile 2005</i> is the operating system playing catch up. When you listen to the podcast though, you'll see how this trickery takes place. To match the capabilities of any Windows Mobile device, even going back to WM2003SE, you have to pick and choose features from multiple devices while <i>no single device</i> has all of the features, and worse, no single device can, no matter how much third party software and hardware you pile on it. This has always been the beauty of Windows Mobile devices. There is a core set of functionality that covers email, PIM, office productivity, multimedia, networking, etc. that is on every single device made. You are basically left with choices for style, which wireless radios (GPRS, EVDO, WiFi, Bluetooth) and which screen resolution you want. And for the record, a Microsoft Project program has been available for Windows Mobile devices for as long as I can remember, and it amazes me to this day that one isn't available for the PalmOS. I use <a href="http://www.twiddlebit.com/pocketplan.htm">Pocket Plan</a> almost every day and have for several years. Perhaps there is one for PalmOS and Jeff is incorrect about that too.

[Fred44]

I alway liked this cover from M-Business July 2001. Things never change.

http://mbu.com/18.jpg

[cscullion]

Project@Hand 2 MSP has been available for a while for PalmOS and is quite good.

http://www.natara.com/ProjectAtHand2/index.cfm
http://www.natara.com/ProjectAtHand2/ScreenShots.cfm

[seaflipper]

I've used both Palm and Windows Mobile devices. Both have their strengths and weaknesses.

However, for the type of device I need (phone/pda) the Treo650 is the best I have ever used. The fact that is truly has one handed operation (which is only coming in WM 5.0 supposedly) is HUGE.

Sure WM is much prettier in many regards and you can do more with Windows Mobile and with the integration of .net compact framework the potential for WM is much bigger, especially for enterprise level applications.

I am very curious to see what the WM 5.0 devices look like, how they work how the phone edition actually works in reality. But for now I am sticking with my Treo

[Jonathon Watkins]

A good namecheck there Ed. :wink: That's a pretty funny podcast by Jeff Kirvin (but he quibbles)! :lol: That's some serious bluster and yes, we had worked out that he'd had too much sugar that day. :wink:

I won a Palm IIIc when I worked at 3Com and promptly passed it onto a friend and bought my Dell X5 Pocket PC. Features, power and control over hype and 'simple' simplicity any day. :devilboy: Sure, each does have it's stengths and weaknessses and I've chosen the platform that best suits me.

That's a good picture Fred44. Cheers. 8)

[lapchinj]

... According to Jeff, Garnet (PalmOS5) and pa1mOne can already do everything Windows Mobile can and Windows Mobile 2005 is the operating system playing catch up...
Well, you really didn't really expect a different answer did you? I know some developers who write apps for Palm and it seems that they're fuming while the guys like Jeff (not me!!!) are saying that the Palm OS is fine while and it's the windows OS which is all wrong. They have to listen a little to they're developers. I don't know if there is a way to fix up the Palm OS at this point in time. All they're still doing is playing hokus pokus - poof - trying to come up with an OS :deadhorse: They're just falling further and further behind. At some point they'll just loose the rest of they're developers and then we can write beautiful eulogies and obits :cry: :angel:

I never thought that someone named jeff could be so wrong but I guess I found one (and no it's not me this time). I for one am so very happy to have left Palm many years ago. :mrgreen:

Jeff-

[bjornkeizers]

According to Jeff, Garnet (PalmOS5) and pa1mOne can already do everything Windows Mobile can and Windows Mobile 2005 is the operating system playing catch up.

Ah misplaced pride and optimism - so cute in a disturbing sort of way. Someone should give Jeff a firm slapping to awaken him from this fantasy. The only way they can bring POS into this century would be to create a complete new OS. Sure, it's nice that they're finally adding something resembling multitasking and things like that, but I've had that since Win CE 2.1 - that's what... about ten versions ago or something?

In the end, POS doesn't give me the tools, power and control I need to do my job. I used to be a hardcore Palm guy (in fact, I was a software developer for two years!), but now I would never want to be limited by a bad OS ever again. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I will not buy another Palm unit until they completely rewrite every bit of code into an entirely new OS.

[Foo Fighter]

Since Windows Mobile is now leading PalmOS, does it really matter what Jeff (or anyone for that matter) thinks? In his latest podcast Kirvin sees the Palm economy as being quite healthy and vibrant, all while PalmOS is shrinking, and PSource is struggling internally. I don't normally slam other enthusiasts, but Jeff lost all credibility as an agnostic unbiased figure when he went in the direction of Palm fanboy.

Frankly these Palm vs. PPC arguments are outdated and irrelevant. It's a shame people still put so much emotion into a tiny slab of silicon. Where's that beating a dead horse smiley? Ah yes, here it is... :deadhorse:

[whydidnt]

Right on Foo Fighter.... I couldn't have said it better myself. I would have to add one snide comment, though. How much is Palm paying Kirven to spout this propaganda?? :roll:

It's always the same argument from Palm fanboys - we can do that - of course they don't mention that it's not part of the OS, but bundled with the Hardware. He makes it sound as if WM users have had NO option to see photo contacts or powerpoint presntations until WM5. He makes the point that PPCThoughts readers bash Palm without really trying it, but his entire Podcast is perfect example of bashing WM without really knowing how things work today.

[Damion Chaplin]

I agree.

Most of us here use Windows Mobile, sure. However, many many of us use Windows Mobile because we tried the Palm OS and found it lacking. I'm not so sure it works the other way around. How many Palm users started with a PPC and moved to a Palm? Probably significantly less than the users who migrated from Palm to PPC. 'Course, I have no data regarding that, it's just the general impression I get from our community here. Maybe Palm forums have "Power Users" :roll: that can't stand the WM OS because it's lacking in features/power... Somehow I doubt it though...

So to claim that we bash the Palm OS without even trying it is bunk IMHO. However, I do know quite a few Palm users that think their device is superior but have never held a WM device (most of the Palm users I know consider WM to be 'too much' and are afraid of it).

[bigkingfun]

Mac vs Windows, Linux vs Windows, Atari vs Amiga (dating myself a little), Ford vs Chevy... these kind of debates have been around forever. Most people like to think the choice they make is the right one. Many of them will argue until they're blue in the face, even if the "other side" offers some good points.

Personally, I think Windows Mobile is a more capable OS. I find it gives me more of a "computer" experience than Palm. Not everyone wants that though, and for some Palm might be the better choice. That doesn't mean it's better (or worse), just better for them.

I was impressed by the Palm T3 when it came out, to the point of buying one with every intention of switching back. As much as I loved the hardware, I just couldn't deal with the OS.

[cscullion]

Every six months or so, I try to make the transition from Palm to PPC, but it never lasts. When PPC developers stop wasting screen real estate on bulky controls, maybe the transition will go better for me. There are a few programs I can't live without on my Palm, and there are no good alternatives on PPC:

- SDSTime: a simple timesheet program where I can see an entire week at a glance, with all project names, and times for each day of the week in calendar format... still waiting for something like this on PPC. I've evaluated about 9 apps, and none does this.

- Day Notez - a simple daily journal that organizes entries by date and time, and shows them in a sorted list that allows filtering by keywords. Every equivalent in PPC has a poor UI, no filtering, and builky timestamps.

- MemoPLUS - a text memo program that can password protect selected memos with unique passwords. Not all memos, not one password at program entry... a password prompt when opening a memo in the list, and the possibility of a different password for each memo.

- Card Export - a program that lets me see my SD card as a drive on my Windows PC through the sync cable.

I'm pinning my hopes on StyleTap to solve the first three (still some bugs, though). The last one I *might* be able to live without, but only if everything else is good.

I'm trying, I really am. But PPC forces me back every time.

[surur]

POS is really Windows 3.1 level. People like Kirvin continue to pretend this is enough, but Palm users are slowly being forced by competition to see how little they actually get for their money.

Because the comparison is quite embarrassing Palm people really don't like being reminded of the weakness of their platform, especially on 1src.com, which is really very insular.

In Podcast 23 Kirvin really put his foot into it, leading him to eat a lot of crow in Podcast 24. If my platform was actively sinking itself I would maintain a lower profile.

On the other hand, some people just don't live in the same reality as we do...

http://surur.sytes.net/jk.jpg

Surur

[Spiral]

There are a few programs I can't live without on my Palm, and there are no good alternatives on PPC: Card Export - a program that lets me see my SD card as a drive on my Windows PC through the sync cable.
I don't use PIM that extensively so I can't comment on the first three, but you can see all of a PPC's directories through activesync. Just go to mobile device in windows explorer, and then you can navigate to card/all the ram, etc. It's more convenient too because you can sync while doing this. Downside is that since it's not mounted as a disc and microsoft apparently thought you'd want an original copy of data on your computer, so you can't cut+paste data in, and it's slower than direct usb.

[Felix Torres]

I'm kinda curious...
If Cobalt and Garnet are so great, why did PalmSource have to go buy a Linux house to provide the core OS for a *third* POS line?

To me it seems like they're saying their existing architecture just doesn't scale *up* to the kind of handhelds needed to stay in the game past 2005...
...the same message I get when I see Nokia resorting to Linux instead of Symbian for their webpad.

In both cases I see an admission that, while WinCE scales up beautifully (the only question with CE has been scaling *down* to smartphones) to data-centric and multimedia devices, their platforms are not robust enough to handle multi-threaded lifestyles and the apps needed to compete.

I'm sure at some point CE will run out of headroom for user needs and demands, but by that time we'll likely be runing full XP in our handhelds...
...and the date will be closer to 2015 than 2005...
8)
Cheers!

[elbowz]

What is it exactly that Windows Mobile can do that PalmOS devices can't? Out of the box it comes down to Remote Desktop connections, network share access and collecting mail/downloading a web page at the same time. That's about it. Conversely it seems that no matter how fast a CPU you put into a Windows Mobile device you never get away from the spinning 'wait' cursor and no matter how many times MS renames and updates the OS they still can't get the alarms to work reliably.

I use both and support users who use both too. Trust me the only difference is that WM users like to think they do more with their devices.

If you haven't had any recent experience of PalmOS devices then you should get some before putting forward a baseless opinion. Comparing a Palm IIIc and an Axim X5 - thats like saying a 1980s Austin Metro doesn't have the same extras as an 05 BMW, a completely worthless comparison.

If you want to compare the volume and quality of add-on software for either platform then that is valid, but really other than the superior web experience there's no real advantage to using a Windows Mobile device out of the box. Want to make some interesting comparisons, explain to me how a £70 Zire can fly through applications whilst an Axim X50v clunks along like a three-legged dog? Or why in the time it takes a Tosh e800 to fire up and hand control to its user, the T5 owner has fired up, updated their calendar, created some notes and powered down again.

Taking endless potshots at the competition doesn't serve any purpose. What should be on the front page of Pocket PC Thoughts are headlines like "Windows Mobile 5 - fifth time lucky for reliable alarms?", "WTF - no software upgrades again!" or how about "Activesync 4 - pray God they fixed it this time". Maybe issues will be sorted and then the comparisons will be rendered unnecessary...

[surur]

elbowz- in theory any Turing machine can emulate another Turing machine. That does not mean its useful or elegant to emulate a proper modern OS on a Palm.

PalmOS was designed to work like cheap casio databanks, which also just happened to be able to run other software. Win Ce was designed from the start to be a modern 32 bit OS. On Palms the hacks keep multiplying trying to catch up with modern computers e.g the cooperative multi-tasking solution, and this has made the device more and more unstable.

Meanwhile Windows Mobile continues to grow into its potential as a do-it-all grownup OS.

On POS its now acceptable to soft-reset 6-9 times per day. 2 seconds lag is now perfectly normal, and 6 seconds is just peachy too. Due to the cobbled together OS they are also not getting the latest software, while WM benefits from easy porting from desktop apps. Music stutters when played in the background with almost every activity. These things are accepted for the much vaunted "Zen of Palm". They even pay over the odds for all this.

Some people remain in abusive relationships due to poor self-esteem. I think that explains a lot about Palmistas.

Surur

[pgh1969pa]

Jeff is such a partisan that listening to him is pretty much a waste of time. He uses misinformation, half-facts, and false equivocations in his attempts to validate his beliefs. When confronted with real facts, he has avoided to respond to some of my questions to him. He can blog, podcast, or publish all he wants but he already compromised his credibility so I really don't react to much of his spin and propaganda.

Now that the Lifedrive has wifi, he probably thinks that wifi on a pda is good. The last time he and I chatted, he felt the bluetooth was all you'll ever need and wifi was a waste.

[Jonathon Watkins]

Comparing a Palm IIIc and an Axim X5 - thats like saying a 1980s Austin Metro doesn't have the same extras as an 05 BMW, a completely worthless comparison.

It is a fair comparison, as both were marketed to the same market roughly around the same time. However I was not actually comparing them. What I said was this:

I won a Palm IIIc when I worked at 3Com and promptly passed it onto a friend and bought my Dell X5 Pocket PC.

I.e. even when the almost-top-of-the-line Palm was free, I still prefered to buy a Pocket PC.

... explain to me how a £70 Zire can fly through applications whilst an Axim X50v clunks along like a three-legged dog?

I can't explain it, because they don't. :P Exactly which applications does the Zire beat the X50v on? My X50v is just spiffy thanks very much. :wink:

... Taking endless potshots at the competition doesn't serve any purpose.

So what was your post about then? :wink: On a serious note though, it is useful for new users to be able to weigh up the strengths and weaknesses of each platform before buying, but just about every 'unbiased' comparison of the mobile platforms Ive seen has been heavily slanted one way or the other. In the end, people tend to prefer one platform over the other and become 'committed' to it. It's hard throwing away the investment in software, training and experience to switch to another platform. It also (perhaps incorrectly) implies you made a mistake in the first place of committing to that platform if you then change away from it.

I do like the ways that 'friendly' competition spurs on greater development on the mobile platforms, but it really does look like Palm is heading out of the game unless they seriously pull up their socks. :?

[choyboy]

You've all talked about how all Palm users are "fanboys" and how there really is no comparison - Windows Mobile is superior.


I hate to say it, but you're all fanboys yourselves. That's not an insult, but just a natural role we end up taking. No one wants to say that the device their using isn't the best. Everyone naturally justifies their purchase and overlooks the flaws.

As one poster said, you also get comfortable with what you're used to.

As a supplier of both PocketPC and Palm to the medical profession, I've had to play with both, and current ones.

BOTH have their own flaws, and they don't suit the same type of user.

PocketPCs suit most of you because they are more powerful, and, more importantly, more configurable.


But that's not for everyone. 95% of the customers I serve aren't after power and bragging rights. They just want to get the job done. In the case of most of the medicos, that means access to medical resources and basic PIM functionality.

Very few of them are willing to sacrifice battery life and size for poweruser features like 640 x 480 resolution.

Palm devices are simpler to use, and, contrary to what one poster here has said, don't crash 6-9 times a day. They also launch faster and are less complicated (wow you can actually quit applications when you say quit!) The downside is a less pretty interface and less features - Wifi is only built into the lifedrive. There is also alot less choice. For the record, I setup and use the whole range, ie Zire, T5, LifeDrive, E, E2, Treo 650.

Windows mobile machines are definitely more extensible, the OS is prettier, there are more devices covering a wider range of options, and there are PDAs to satisfy the heaviest power user.

But it also has it's downsides. Activesync isn't exactly the best syncing software. Windows mobile is a real pain when something goes wrong, just like a pc. Spewing multiple little files everywhere doesn't make for an easy fix. I wouldn't exactly call it easy to use either. I've never got around the idea of quitting something but not actually quitting it. There are ways to quit, but this should be something that needs to be done separately. The machines that I play with are the HP range, particularly the rx3417, and the O2 XDA Mini/IIs.

Both devices have their own market. I still consider Palm to be more user friendly, and the customer base that I serve is consistent with this. I definitely agree, palm is lagging behind. But the fact that devices like the treo 650 are doing so well implies that there is still something in PalmOS.

it will be interesting to see if the HP hw6500 does a better job at converged devices than the treo - if so, that puts palm one step closer to the grave.


choyboy

[Doug Raeburn]

This whole thing has been a bit enlightening.

First reaction... podcasts can be more than a little unsettling. I listened to Jeff K.'s podcast and my main reaction is, if I ever tell a friend or relative that I plan on doing something like that, have them lock me in a closet until I come to my senses. I've read his website sporadically for a few years now, including during the phase where the Pocket PC seemed to make some sense to him, and I've always felt that his opinions were balanced and reasonable, although nobody would find it surprising that he has a very strong Palm bias.

Now after hearing him in this podcast, I have mental images of him in a large tent on a hot Sunday in the Dust Bowl, holding a rattlesnake in one hand and a LifeDrive in the other, saying "Repent, sinners..." Rock of Ages is being played (or perhaps pounded is the more accurate term) from an old upright piano in the corner.

And before anyone rails on me for this well intentioned ribbing of the podcast, let me say that I'd probably sound every bit as "on the fringe" if I did one myself. I guess I just think it's a bad idea overall, especially if you want to maintain the facade that you're at least reasonably sane. Given the tenuous state of that facade in my case, I think I should leave well enough alone.

Second reaction... is it just me, or is "LifeDrive" among the most pretentious and self-important product names that you've ever encountered? With Jerry Lewis in poor health these days, who will be able to host the LifeDrive telethon?

[lapchinj]

On the other hand, some people just don't live in the same reality as we do...
Hey! some guys just doesn't get it? But you never know - Fairy tales can come true they can happen to you.....

This is going to be a flamin good thread :devilboy: :hippy:

Jeff :mrgreen:

[bbarker]

I've read his website sporadically for a few years now
I had never heard of Jeff K until this thread. I was reading the original front page post wondering who the heck he was. I guessed that he was a Palm executive of some sort.

[Janak Parekh]

I hate to say it, but you're all fanboys yourselves. That's not an insult, but just a natural role we end up taking. No one wants to say that the device their using isn't the best. Everyone naturally justifies their purchase and overlooks the flaws.
I'm sure there's fanboys here, but I'd like to think that most of us have made a rational decision as to why we use Windows Mobile.

I've always said that once Palm fixes multiple categorization and multitasking, I'd consider going back. Those two are requirements for me, and it's frustrating that they haven't been fixed. The Treo 650 is indeed a very attractive device, and Palm deserves credit for that piece of hardware -- but I'm not that interested in Garnet.

As one poster said, you also get comfortable with what you're used to.
Indeed. One thing I hear from a lot of people who switch from Palm to Pocket PC is that it's "awkward" or "difficult". I found that it takes a few months before a new UI becomes immediately intuitive. I now find Palm's UI far more unintuitive than Pocket PCs'.

But that's not for everyone. 95% of the customers I serve aren't after power and bragging rights. They just want to get the job done. In the case of most of the medicos, that means access to medical resources and basic PIM functionality.
Sure -- and, in those cases, I've occasionally recommended Palms. The real threat to Palm, though, is that cell phones are slowly gaining enough functionality for the majority of low-end uses. Palm knows it needs to attack the high-end and Smartphone markets to survive. While they have accomplished this on the hardware, the OS is lagging.

Palm devices are simpler to use, and, contrary to what one poster here has said, don't crash 6-9 times a day.
Actually, there are known issues on the most recent devices -- especially the T5 -- that do require several resets per day. In fact, the linked discussion talks about it. My WM devices, on the other hand, usually last weeks to months between soft-resets.

They also launch faster and are less complicated (wow you can actually quit applications when you say quit!)
I'll buy the faster, but as I assert above, I don't agree on the complicated bit.

But it also has it's downsides. Activesync isn't exactly the best syncing software.
Yes -- and, finally, Microsoft has improved it significantly in WM5 (barring the loss of WiFi sync, which we've all railed about). And many of us have also railed about the close button.

it will be interesting to see if the HP hw6500 does a better job at converged devices than the treo - if so, that puts palm one step closer to the grave.
I think the hw6500 will have its niche, but it's too hard to say. My biggest problem with the hw6500 is the low screen resolution. I'd love to see a device in that formfactor with a 480x480 screen.

--janak

[dorelse]

Like everything else, both the PPC &amp; Palm interface leave something to be desired. I think the Palm interface is more user friendly out of the box, especially for a new user. Tap Solitare, it starts...PPC, Start -> Programs -> Games -> Solitare. Sure its more like Windows, but I don't necessarily think that's a postive in a PDA.

Now, configure a PPC with some nice add-on's, and its quickly becomes much easier to use.

I've owned lots on either side of the fence, the Treo 650 &amp; 600 are amazing. One handed operation, intuitive inveface (ex. Contact lookup), and really blow the current Smartphones away. I'm anxiously waiting for WM2005 for Smartphones to see what the MS boys have come up with.

Same for the Palm...load up some 3rd party add-on's and it too becomes a better user experience.

Either way, I'd love for Palm to be successful to keep MS working hard to gain marketshare. MS is best when chasing the leader...now that they've pased Palm, we'll see how they progress.

[Janak Parekh]

Either way, I'd love for Palm to be successful to keep MS working hard to gain marketshare. MS is best when chasing the leader...now that they've pased Palm, we'll see how they progress.
Agreed on both counts. :)

--janak

[Terry]

I have a LifeDrive now, and it's an excellent device. The built-in browser is better at rendering non-mobile sites than Pocket IE. I can actually use Outlook Web Access on the Life Drive, where it's a total pain on Pocket IE. I went this way because I'm tired of HP not upgrading the OS on their devices, switching from the Jornada to the iPaq, discontinuing iPaq sleeve models, etc.

Syncing is much better with the LD, and it support Wi-Fi file access (don't know about Wi-Fi sync).

The OS has some bugs and the LD reboots from time-to-time (more than my iPaq 4155) and it takes much longer to restart after a reboot. I turned file encryption on, and it took 8 minutes to start after a power off (encryption is now off). It should have a mini-USB port instead of the Palm cable, but at least it's the same cable as all the other Palms. The headphone jack is on the bottom, which is dumb, but no dumber than Pocket PCs that do the same thing.

Both have their strengths and weaknesses. I'll haven't decided which device I will stick with.

The agument over which is better is identical to the Windows vs. Apple argument. The answer is both and neither.

[ipaq_wannabe]

up until know, i have admired Jeff Kirvin's way of thinking, his articles, etc. etc.

but up until recently, i do NOT get his means of argument, his logic... which in my opinion, are now going in circles... even it were not bashing Palm against PPC, or vice-versa... *as in duh????*

or maybe he just likes to disagree with everything?? *could be*

[ipaq_wannabe]

I have a LifeDrive now, and it's an excellent device. The built-in browser is better at rendering non-mobile sites than Pocket IE. I can actually use Outlook Web Access on the Life Drive, where it's a total pain on Pocket IE. I went this way because I'm tired of HP not upgrading the OS on their devices, switching from the Jornada to the iPaq, discontinuing iPaq sleeve models, etc.

Syncing is much better with the LD, and it support Wi-Fi file access (don't know about Wi-Fi sync).

The OS has some bugs and the LD reboots from time-to-time (more than my iPaq 4155) and it takes much longer to restart after a reboot. I turned file encryption on, and it took 3 minutes to start after a power off (encryption is now off). It should have a mini-USB port instead of the Palm cable, but at least it's the same cable as all the other Palms. The headphone jack is on the bottom, which is dumb, but no dumber than Pocket PCs that do the same thing.

Both have their strengths and weaknesses. I'll haven't decided which device I will stick with.

The agument over which is better is identical to the Windows vs. Apple argument. The answer is both and neither.

Terry, now that you have a LifeDrive - is it true that during a "hard reset," even the 4GB HDD gets erased?

[Terry]

Terry, now that you have a LifeDrive - is it true that during a "hard reset," even the 4GB HDD gets erased?

Pressing the reset button doesn't erase the 4GB HDD...there is a software setting that will erase the drive after X number of incorrect password attempts (we get to set X).

According to this Brighthand thread: http://discussion.brighthand.com/palmhandhelds/showthread.php?s=&amp;threadid=989 pressing the reset button is a soft reset. A hard reset will erase the HDD (see near the bottom of the first message in the thread for info on the LifeDrive).

I may eventually come back from the dark side to a WM5 PPC with a 6GB CF MicroDrive, but I've had a MicroDrive failure a couple of days after warranty in the past...

[jimski]

Every six months or so, I try to make the transition from Palm to PPC, but it never lasts. When PPC developers stop wasting screen real estate on bulky controls, maybe the transition will go better for me. There are a few programs I can't live without on my Palm, and there are no good alternatives on PPC:

- SDSTime: a simple timesheet program where I can see an entire week at a glance, with all project names, and times for each day of the week in calendar format... still waiting for something like this on PPC. I've evaluated about 9 apps, and none does this.

- Day Notez - a simple daily journal that organizes entries by date and time, and shows them in a sorted list that allows filtering by keywords. Every equivalent in PPC has a poor UI, no filtering, and builky timestamps.


Can't help you with all your issues, but as a former Palm user (9 devices over 5 years) I used both of the apps noted above and offer the following as viable alternatives;

-Pocket Time ("www.bivrin.com") - Shareware that is very close in functionality to SDS Time (took me over a year to find this after switching over).

-CLC Journal ("www.crownlogic.com") - Syncs perfectly with Outlook Journal which is a pretty capable journaling program. I keep a years worth of journal info synced on my PPC and regularly do searches on keywords when I am looking for a particular group of events or conversations.

It took me a while to find equivilants for many of my previous Palm apps (and I had many) but over time I don't find myself wanting for anything I used to have. Generally, where many Palm apps were sort of amateurish, most PPC apps appear to be professionally written and are more robust in most cases. Maybe too much for some people, but just right for me.

[Jorgen]

Ed Hansburry has for years been arguing that Palm is or should be dead and I guess we can look forward to another next year. Ed, there is only one thing that counts when you choose a PDA: does it have the software you need? I retired early a couple of years ago so today I apart from bookreading only use a PDA for fun; I tend to stick to the PPCs at the moment but could do with either. But if I were to start working again and needed (see below) a datebook, needed a task management system that works, wanted a PDA where the alarm goes off 100% of the time and wanted a PDA on which things run fast and smoothly, Palm would win hands down (well, I will admit that I haven't checked things seriously the last couple of years but I do follow PPCs loosely). If you just write 5 or 6 days a week in your diary: "7:00 Go to work", you don't need a Palm and can do with either - you may even be able to keep your appointments in your head!

I bought my PPCs to read .LIT books (I like them once in a while), do wi-fi at home and in coffeebars (just for fun though I don't bother much today) and to do PowerPoint presentations (the Palm version was not fully functional at that time). I tried for years to find a good diary system for PPCs but apart from looking very good, the programs were neither here or there; and they are (were?) damn slow.

Rather than write such unhelpful articles, PPCthoughts should write articles that looked at things from the outside: why are neither Palm or PPCs as good as they ought to be and what could be done to make them better.

And, no, don't ask me to write such articles. I only work for money.

Jorgen

[gt24]

Here I go stirring up trouble...

ANYWAYS, I have a Pocket PC, I switched over due to my Palm device of old (OS 3) being absolutely terrible. So, I have a Pocket PC 2003 SE device now (replaced a 2002 device). My college is having a mobile programming class... for PALM!

Well, it is an excuse for a new toy... so a Tungsten E2 later, I have both a Palm OS 5.4 device and a Windows Mobile device, and I'm looking over them. One thing I really noticed on BOTH sides of the fence is that people are zellots for their platforms, but it seems Windows Mobile is the worst. Trying to explain that I have the Palm primarily for my programming class usually generates a comment from the other person along the lines of "Gee, that's dumb, Windows Mobile is a bazillion times more powerful and it ACTUALLY MUTITASKS". Sigh...

So, here is what I found out. Both multitask (Palm prefers programs "hibernate" unless they really must run at the same time as other programs, Windows Mobile prefers that you never close any programs...). WM displays the today screen and then you can go to start/programs for program icons. Palm displays the program icons on the screen, and if I hit my calendar button I get the today screen (I'm not kidding you). In fact, most things the Pocket PC does the Palm does as well, just backwards.

&lt;edit> On Palm, if a program is closed the program can save its' internal memory before closing. Therefore, when you start the program, the program starts, grabs the older memory, and continues like it was never closed in the first place. The program in question must support this though. It isn't quite like saving a preferences file but more like the program was never closed. It's kinda nifty, too bad it is a feature that isn't present in Windows Mobile. &lt;/edit>

Learning about the Palm in my class, the Palm OS is ARM based, preemptive multitasking, however the OS emulates the older processors from the prior OSes to keep compatibility (with PACE). Yes, you can make native ARM programs but for the most part, people still compile for the older CPU because they know it works. Thankfully the OS is ARM based so any system calls will at least be executed by the faster ARM code.

Palm is toying around with non-volitle memory (first Flash, then NVRAM (on my E2) and finally a microdrive) while Pocket PC went ROM/RAM. It should be noted that there are a ton more companies hacking at mobile issues for Windows Mobile than Palm (Palm just has... um... PalmOne...). True, PalmSource and PalmOne is behind now, but they are doing what the person at the tail end of the race should do, they are poking the leader hard in the back. True, the Lifedrive has issues... but it tells Windows Mobile developers that there IS a hard drive PDA and that they should think about doing something similar soon. The Tungsten E2 has a cell phone style connector to sync with which is very reliable... meanwhile the Axim X50v has MAJOR CRADLE ISSUES... both sides have a lot to learn... and I fear the day when there is no competition.

As for which I like better... I am using BOTH! The Palm is a very very fast organizer, going through calendar and other native applications instantly (much faster than my X30 High!). The Axim just sits on the belt clip playing endless MP3s and serving as my multimedia center. The two devices are in sync with each other (they both sync with Outlook) so it doesn't harm me to have both. Ironically, since I am learning Palm programming, I might end up contributing Palm programs to the mobile community... then agan, Palm was always really nice to developers... to the annoyance of the users (see the PACE emulation above, Palm programmers seem to like programming for OS 3.5 and it is only milding hard to code for clear back to OS 1 (you need a lot of knowledge and workarounds for that OS).

I'm not saying one is better or one is worse and I won't slam anybody for their choice. Either device is really nice and it should be a personal choice in determining which is better (or if both should be at one's side... :)). I'm glad I have an open mind though, I get to have twice the fun now!

[ipaq_wannabe]

Here I go stirring up trouble...

As for which I like better... I am using BOTH! The Palm is a very very fast organizer, going through calendar and other native applications instantly (much faster than my X30 High!). The Axim just sits on the belt clip playing endless MP3s and serving as my multimedia center. The two devices are in sync with each other (they both sync with Outlook) so it doesn't harm me to have both. Ironically, since I am learning Palm programming, I might end up contributing Palm programs to the mobile community... then agan, Palm was always really nice to developers... to the annoyance of the users (see the PACE emulation above, Palm programmers seem to like programming for OS 3.5 and it is only milding hard to code for clear back to OS 1 (you need a lot of knowledge and workarounds for that OS).

I'm not saying one is better or one is worse and I won't slam anybody for their choice. Either device is really nice and it should be a personal choice in determining which is better (or if both should be at one's side... :)). I'm glad I have an open mind though, I get to have twice the fun now!

hhhmmm... maybe i could also do the same - my VZ90 would serve as my PIM/Organizer, while my new Axim x50v (coming June 1st, hopefully) would serve as my multimedia center...

hhhhmmmmm....

[TMann]

Here's my take on the Windows Mobile vs. Palm OS argument: They're both very capable OS's and what is best is largely a matter of what ones needs are. I have used a number of Palm and PPC devices over the past few years. Last year I switched from using a Tungsten T3 as my "main" device, and moved to a Dell Axim x50v. However, over the past month, I've started again using a Palm OS device, a Treo 650, as my "main" PDA. They're both very capable machines and either one could fulfill all of my needs.

I'm a medical profession, and thus I don't do any "tech maintenance" type work. However, I do run a ton of programs on my Treo and my Axim, and they both are more than up to the task. (PIM, database, medical references, e-mail, etc.)

The two main complaints that Palm users have had over the past year have been 1) the lack of Wi-Fi options in the Palm OS, and 2) the software compatibility issue with the non-volatile memory of the Tungsten T5. However, I have yet to see a dedicated Palm user declare that he had to move over the a Windows Mobile device, because he needed to have true multi-tasking, or a built-in file system. It's not a big issue in everyday usage...

I have to agree with an earlier poster that Ed Hansberry seem to have an obsession with knocking the Palm OS and belittling Palm users. I frankly find it to be a bit silly. And come on, Surer, are all "Palmistas" really suffering from low self-esteem? And you guys are calling Jeff Kirvin biased...

These sort of threads really are a waste of time...

TMann

[elbowz]

elbowz- in theory any Turing machine can emulate another Turing machine. That does not mean its useful or elegant to emulate a proper modern OS on a Palm.

Perhaps you should consider the question from the opposite direction: does it make sense to try to emulate a modern desktop OS on something with a tiny screen designed to fit in your hand? For my personal use (as aside from my professional needs) the responsive, intuitive access to core applications provided by the PalmOS is both more useful and far more elegant than WM2003SE.

On Palms the hacks keep multiplying trying to catch up with modern computers e.g the cooperative multi-tasking solution, and this has made the device more and more unstable.

Hacks? Given the leisurely performance of Windows Mobile on even the fastest available handheld hardware I'd say the pre-emptive multi-tasking runs more like a hack.


On POS its now acceptable to soft-reset 6-9 times per day. 2 seconds lag is now perfectly normal, and 6 seconds is just peachy too. Due to the cobbled together OS they are also not getting the latest software, while WM benefits from easy porting from desktop apps. Music stutters when played in the background with almost every activity. These things are accepted for the much vaunted "Zen of Palm". They even pay over the odds for all this.

Really? You see I support dozens of users who have Palm and WM devices and what I see is the exact opposite. PalmOS devices are incredibly stable. I'm guessing that you are getting the info on 2 and 6 seconds lag times from the early reviews of the LifeDrive - as I haven't seen one yet so I can't comment - I wonder whether you have?

Background music on PalmOS devices is a smooth fluid thing that doesn't interrupt even the most intensive of front-end purposes - again I wonder where you've got this info from. Not first hand knowledge I'll wager...

Finally as to the availability of desktop apps: yep I'm wading through them here - not!

And before you accuse me of being a Palm fanboy, I'd like to point out that I've been a Win CE user since the days of the e105 - and I'm still continually frustrated by the failure of MS to deliver a complete working version of an OS which has the potential to completely blow away the competition.

[Spiral]

While I can't say POS is more unstable than WM, I can definately say that POS has gotten more unstable with each revision, while the WM has tended towards more stability. My m100 I almost never had to soft reset, my NR70v would crash (and hard reset) quite often because of all the Sony modifications of the OS. My T3 is a bit better in stability, but it too crashes for random reasons. Tungsten C is the worst. WM2003 (a620) was a lot more stable than pocket pc 2002 (my ipaq).

The stuttering music should also be a LD reference again. You can find it "first hand" from the bargainpda review. The thing that bewilders me about the lifedrive is that it erases the hard drive after a hard reset. very few people will regularly backup 4 gigs of data, and it's a nuisance to do so.

I don't see what's so innovative about Palm's non-volatile memory. My series 60 phone was released nearly 2 years ago and it maintains all its data and almost all the settings (after losing battery power/taking out the battery for extended periods). The on thing i've found missing is the arrangement of programs goes back to default.

WM handhelds with harddrives should be comiing out soon. Samsung had announced its smartphone/mp3/harddrive before the p1 announced the lifedrive. Of course half of samsung's phones also end up in a trash can somewhere.

[surur]

elbowz- in theory any Turing machine can emulate another Turing machine. That does not mean its useful or elegant to emulate a proper modern OS on a Palm.

Perhaps you should consider the question from the opposite direction: does it make sense to try to emulate a modern desktop OS on something with a tiny screen designed to fit in your hand? For my personal use (as aside from my professional needs) the responsive, intuitive access to core applications provided by the PalmOS is both more useful and far more elegant than WM2003SE.


Tell that to Palm, who actually boots their OS of a hard drive.


On Palms the hacks keep multiplying trying to catch up with modern computers e.g the cooperative multi-tasking solution, and this has made the device more and more unstable.

Hacks? Given the leisurely performance of Windows Mobile on even the fastest available handheld hardware I'd say the pre-emptive multi-tasking runs more like a hack.

As long as the architecture is right advances in hardware will bring performance boosts. If the architecture is wrong (like in the T5 and lifedrive) nothing will save them. Or are you denying that POS is converging on WM, instead of the other way around?


On POS its now acceptable to soft-reset 6-9 times per day. 2 seconds lag is now perfectly normal, and 6 seconds is just peachy too. Due to the cobbled together OS they are also not getting the latest software, while WM benefits from easy porting from desktop apps. Music stutters when played in the background with almost every activity. These things are accepted for the much vaunted "Zen of Palm". They even pay over the odds for all this.

Really? You see I support dozens of users who have Palm and WM devices and what I see is the exact opposite. PalmOS devices are incredibly stable. I'm guessing that you are getting the info on 2 and 6 seconds lag times from the early reviews of the LifeDrive - as I haven't seen one yet so I can't comment - I wonder whether you have?

I just tested this on my review unit with a stopwatch: launch Calendar (1st time since last soft reset so it's definitely not cached): 2 seconds. Switch calendar views: too fast to time- instant.
http://www.1src.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87703&amp;highlight=lag+seconds

No matter if 5 or 4GB, The 4GB is still laggy. Imagine the 5GB, OMG. I saw the LifeDrive and tested it. It doesn't take 6 seconds but it takes some time. It took about 2 secondsto open an app. With WiFi. It's even slower. Graffiti lags as well. Not trying to be pessimistic, just telling it as I saw it.
http://www.1src.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87703&amp;highlight=lag+seconds

Frank Wilkinson wrote:
In theory, the T5 seems ideal for me. So what's wrong with it? Having all that flash memory must be good - no more buggering about with JackFlash and no worry about losing data.

Constructive criticism please and just so everyone knows, I'm sticking with Palm, so I hope that the several PPC trolls who are currently littering this site will not waste our space and time by pushing other systems.

I would also be obliged if you could keep it fairly non-technical, I'm no techie!

Thanks in advance.

Simple? It crashes. It crashes. It crashes.
I had one, spent a month trying to get it to synch to two computers and stop crashing every other day, which it did from nearly day 1. It took three month, palm loosing the unit I sent in and then trying to pass off a refurbished unit on me before I got a refund.
T5 = junk
http://www.palminfocenter.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27362&amp;start=0&amp;postdays=0&amp;postorder=asc&amp;highlight=reset+t5&amp;sid=0e2fc19dc9ffcb48ddc4d589d7b3a8aa

I can tell you that in the 6.5 months I've had my T5, it has never hard reset. Honestly, my T5 experiences upwards of 6-9 soft resets a day, but without data loss, they're an annoyance at worst. If I understand things, it's because of the type of memory used (I don't like getting too technical either, when making overall judgements on whether a unit's "good" or not - just evaluate it's pros &amp; cons). The only comments I've seen complaining about T5 hard resets are either from people who don't even have one, or folks jumping to bad conclusions based on what they've seen others write.

Background music on PalmOS devices is a smooth fluid thing that doesn't interrupt even the most intensive of front-end purposes - again I wonder where you've got this info from. Not first hand knowledge I'll wager...

8. An "OKEY" like feature (same as T5) is included which highlights things with a blue "halo" with the D-Pad. I don't like it.
9. The "LifeDrive" (storage - not the device itself) is actually very similiar to "Internal" listed on the T5. So essentially, think of the "LifeDrive" as a 4GB "Internal" - they both act like an internal SD Card. So rather than see "Internal" like on a T5, you actually see "LifeDrive" listed as storage (same as you would the name of your SD Card).
10. Music DEFINITELY SKIPS BAD when playing a Song and even the slightest change in applications or within apps. Unless you like skipping music, you will not want to do anything else with the LD when playing mp3s. It will skip almost every time.
11. The Voice Button can be reporgrammed to "Apps" which is nice. The Landscape can't be changed.
http://www.palminfocenter.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27396&amp;start=0&amp;postdays=0&amp;postorder=asc&amp;highlight=music+lifedrive+t5+skip&amp;sid=0e2fc19dc9ffcb48ddc4d589d7b3a8aa

Finally as to the availability of desktop apps: yep I'm wading through them here - not!
Why is Palm always last to get these technologies. Skype is the only other one that is coming to mind right now (because it is so extrememly big and important), but other platforms always get this stuff first. Hmmmm... I wonder why?
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7862#108213


And before you accuse me of being a Palm fanboy, I'd like to point out that I've been a Win CE user since the days of the e105 - and I'm still continually frustrated by the failure of MS to deliver a complete working version of an OS which has the potential to completely blow away the competition.

You may not be a fanboy, but I don't think you have been keeping up with developments on the Palm side... all bad. I hope its not too much for you to read, but you seriously need updating. The current Garnet is a frankensteinian perversion of the original KISS Palm OS.

Surur

[Darius Wey]

Now after hearing him in this podcast, I have mental images of him in a large tent on a hot Sunday in the Dust Bowl, holding a rattlesnake in one hand and a LifeDrive in the other, saying "Repent, sinners..." Rock of Ages is being played (or perhaps pounded is the more accurate term) from an old upright piano in the corner.

Good lord, that was hilarious. :lol:

[Darius Wey]

But that's not for everyone. 95% of the customers I serve aren't after power and bragging rights. They just want to get the job done. In the case of most of the medicos, that means access to medical resources and basic PIM functionality.

I don't have much to add to Janak's comments, but in my experiences (and yes, I'm in the medical field), it is the power and expandability of Windows Mobile devices that make it a preference among the people I work with, as well as myself. Pocket PCs are no longer used for Skyscape, Harrison's and what not. Their functions in the medical industry are being constantly expanded to include wireless data transmission, barcode scanning, etc. This may not be in effect in all countries but I can definitely say it's being put in effect in the US, Australia, and a few countries in Europe. Sad as it is, a Palm would croak if it attempted to do half of that. But granted, Palm still has its place in several industries, including the medical one. And it's the rivalry between Palm and Windows Mobile that brews innovation.

[Ed Hansberry]

Rather than write such unhelpful articles, PPCthoughts should write articles that looked at things from the outside: why are neither Palm or PPCs as good as they ought to be and what could be done to make them better.
This wasn't an article. It was my thoughts. Get it... Pocket PC Thoughts? ;-)

And if you read this site regularly, you will see a number of thoughtful articles, thoughts and even a few rants :devilboy: on improvements wanted for the PPC platform in particular and PDAs in general.

[Jorgen]

Seing my wording: "unhelpful" should probably be "negative".

I read PPCthoughts every single day as one of the first things in the day and, yes, I like your thoughts/articles apart from the yearly attack on Palm.

Jorgen

[Felix Torres]

[Perhaps you should consider the question from the opposite direction: does it make sense to try to emulate a modern desktop OS on something with a tiny screen designed to fit in your hand?.

Tell that to PALM who are moving to LINUX which is a *server* OS.

WINCE was designed for embedded applications and has evolved into a solid Real-time capable modular OS.
Which is to say it is *not* a desktop OS. (That is what XP PRO is for).

So, by your own logic, it is WinCE that is on the right path and Palm that is misguided.

(I'm going to burn in hell for that one but I couldn't resist.) :devilboy:

[tah]

Seems like there's some strong opinions here! Why not throw in my $0.02 worth?

I've been using a 2215 for the last year. Had to remove Pocket Informant so I wouldn't run out of memory running GPS. Downloaded a golf program for PPC and Palm. PPC file...5 Mb...Palm file....400K. Winner on memory management goes to Palm.

Bluetooth memory problem..twice a week, minimum! Soft resets, as well as freezing going down the road! Palm T2 stability...rock solid! Winner....Palm.

Desktop PIM. This I realize is an opinion only, but I'm so used to Palm Desktop it's the winner over Outlook for me. Plus I really don't have the memory on my 2215 for email. Too little space already!
Winner..(for me anyway)..Palm.

Third party apps/freeware? NO contest...Palm.

When it's time to "rebuild" a unit, Palm is a heck of a lot simpler.

Do I care about multitasking..not really.

Before you think I'm one way, I really do like my 2215. But realistically it has some SERIOUS limitations when using side-by-side with my T2.

What does PPC win. Well it acts like Bill Gates had a hand in it. Is that a good thing? It eats memory like Elvis ate pills. It looks nice...so did one of my old girlfriends...who brought a whole new meaning to the term neurotic.

You guys who go with the Palm is dead..long live PPC BS, should live with both in hand for a few years. PPC is nice I agree, but Palm spanks it in several areas.

iPaq 2215, 400MHz, 64 Mb ~ Palm T2, 175MHz (I think), 32 Mb, Palm opens programs quicker, boots quicker and can hold one heck of a lot more apps. Not even using 15 Mb on the Palm, many, many programs. Running out on the PPC and severly limited.

[surur]

Wasn't the Palm T2 one of the last with real memory. Try a more recent Palm and tell me about stability.

Surur

[tah]

Wasn't the Palm T2 one of the last with real memory. Try a more recent Palm and tell me about stability.

Surur

So let me see if I have this right....

I'm not being fair comparing an older Palm with a newer PPC?

Puleeeeze........

[surur]

No. Its simple pragmatism. What you are talking about is Old Palm. New Palm is all about features and crashes. No need to be fair, just realistic.

Surur

[lapchinj]

I'm sure there's fanboys here, but I'd like to think that most of us have made a rational decision as to why we use Windows Mobile...
I would hope so too. I don't know about going back though but I would pick up a Palm to hack around with. I love Linux on the desktop and I also have a sharp and a flashed 3700 iPAQ but for my day to day stuff it's still a PPC (or rather 3 of them 8) ).


I've always said that once Palm fixes multiple categorization and multitasking, I'd consider going back. Those two are requirements for me, and it's frustrating that they haven't been fixed.
It always seems that when Microsoft is playing in the game everyone else is playing catch up. Some are doing it better than others and even some might be ahead but even those companies have to constantly look behind them.

With Palm I get the impression that they're just rolling along on their installed base. But one moment they were in front and the next they're behind. The peculiar thing about this is that they keep saying that they're doing it the right way and the way MS is doing it is all wrong. We see that there's nice hardware (Treo, Tungston etc.) and software apps for the palm so the only thing that people must dislike has to be the OS or rather the core OS behavior. To fix up the Palm OS wouldn't be easy or cheap but if they don't fix up the OS I'll be able to tell my grandchildren about the time "I also had one of those Palm's" while we go strolling through the Smithsonian. Or how about the 25cent gallon of gas my father used to tell me about. Or the horse that .........

Jeff-

[lapchinj]

Boy this is starting to turn into a good thread :agrue: I can already smell some smoke. :multi:

Jeff-

[Felix Torres]

With Palm I get the impression that they're just rolling along on their installed base. But one moment they were in front and the next they're behind. The peculiar thing about this is that they keep saying that they're doing it the right way and the way MS is doing it is all wrong. We see that there's nice hardware (Treo, Tungston etc.) and software apps for the palm so the only thing that people must dislike has to be the OS or rather the core OS behavior. To fix up the Palm OS wouldn't be easy or cheap but if they don't fix up the OS I'll be able to tell my grandchildren about the time "I also had one of those Palm's" while we go strolling through the Smithsonian. Or how about the 25cent gallon of gas my father used to tell me about. Or the horse that .........

Jeff-

You've got it.
Its called the Tyrany of the installed base and its killed more than a few companies/products. (Word Perfect, Lotus, Ashton-tate come to mind...)
(It is also what the article that started it all was alluding to.)
Palm's problem is that they failed to obsolete their product before somebody else did it to them.

From 1995 to 2002 they did virtually nothing to update the platform and instead chose to milk the (large) customer base for all it was worth.

Try this:
- First color PDA? Not Palm
- first arm-based PDA? Not Palm
- first expandable PDA? Not Palm
- First stereo PDA? Not Palm
- first multimedia PDA? Not Palm
- first wi-fi PDA? Not Palm
Whether it be Casio, Compaq, HP, Toshiba, or whoever, Palm hardware has been lagging somebody in the market for over 5 years. And the Palm followers pooh-pooh'ed because Palm had the dominant market share.
Well, any serious analyst can tell you,nobody that lags their competitors that consistently, that long, endures.

All that the large early share and customer devotion did was mask the underlying flaws of the architecture and the product until it was too late.

The way Palm made the Pilot a success was by building it on trailing-edge, dirt cheap technology (1970's-vintage cpu, minimal ram, etc) and tailoring the software to what the hardware allowed (graffitti instead of handwriting recognition, no file system, single threading software environment, tiny apps, no real os). Which is to say, they optimized for the original hardware.

The nature of such optimization is that it is not easily undone.

Palm has been paying for that optimization to this day.
The dirty secret of Palm OS is that the application environment is not an OS at all but an emulator for the old 68k environment.

The Palm platform desperately needs to evolve on the software side; it needs modern APIs that map to modern hardware directly, not through a kludged-up emulator of an architecture that was tired when it was new. Yet it can't because it can't (or won't) let go of the boat anchor of dragonball compatibility.

WinCE doesn't have that problem because Microsoft has slowly migrated the customers and developers from the original CE implementation to the most recent one by gradually obsoleting its own product, bit by bit. Every release breaks a few apps. Every release is incompatible with *some* older hardware. But Never so much that the users or developers go away. The platform stays fresh, the platform evolves, and Microsoft never waits for its enemies to obsolete its product.

On the desktop, MS has shephered its customer base from DOS to Windows 3.x to Win9x to Win2000/xp. That is three generational shifts, all successful.
Palm, on the other hand, is still struggling to complete the transition from single-tasking 68k cpus to multitasking ARM, and has in the process lost the edge in market share it once had so that it now lags in hardware, software, and sales rate.

It still has the loyalty of its existing customers but it is not gaining new ones fast enough to keep up with the competition.
If this keeps up, they will face even bigger problems...

And, like many pepole facing serious real-world problems, the first step is admitting they have a problem.

Proclaiming the superiority of Palm in the face of its past and present failures to adapt does nothing to help PALM and a lot to help its enemies.

So guys, keep whistling past the graveyard if you want to, but that light at the end of the tunnel?
Its a train coming at you...

[Darius Wey]

What does PPC win. Well it acts like Bill Gates had a hand in it.

You know, I'd really love to see the rationale behind posts which constantly curse Bill Gates for what he has done. I honestly think if it weren't for him, we'd never be at our current state of technological goodness.

You guys who go with the Palm is dead..long live PPC BS, should live with both in hand for a few years. PPC is nice I agree, but Palm spanks it in several areas.

A lot of Pocket PC users have walked through Palm's doors before and found it to be comparatively worse when put head to head with a Pocket PC. Suffice to say, over the past year or two, when it has come to innovation, the Pocket PC realm has shined while Palm has failed to deliver anything groundbreaking. I certainly don't want Palm to die off quickly, since I have said time and time again that it is that competition (if any?) that brews innovation. Thankfully, it is Windows Mobile that is taking the steps to promoting integration with other devices and improving functionality across the board, and not just restricting itself to its own little world like Palm is. There is, and always will be a market for Palm. If you're a simple user who doesn't demand a lot out of their mobile device, go Palm. If you're a power user who loves to squeeze every little bit out of their mobile device, go Windows Mobile. Gartner's reports have already shown which is the more popular platform, and this will only become more apparent in the next few years.

[Gekko]

Felix - BRILLIANT post. I quoted you over at PIC.

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108266

Best wishes -

G

[Felix Torres]

Felix - BRILLIANT post. I quoted you over at PIC.

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108266

Best wishes -

G

Arrgggghhhh!

Now there's *three* hit-squads after me!
Gotta run and hide... 8)

[Foo Fighter]

Arrgggghhhh!

Now there's *three* hit-squads after me!
Gotta run and hide... 8)

Four, actually. I'm submitting your post to PETA. Why I don't know, but I feel you're harming innocent creatures somehow. :wink:

[Doug Raeburn]

Arrgggghhhh!

Now there's *three* hit-squads after me!
Gotta run and hide... 8)

Four, actually. I'm submitting your post to PETA. Why I don't know, but I feel you're harming innocent creatures somehow. :wink:

Not to mention somehow further damaging the ozone layer and contributing to the greenhouse effect! :lol:

Seriously, though, I thought I knew pretty much about the history of PDAs, but I learned several key things of which I hadn't been previously aware from your post. Quite the eye opener!

[Felix Torres]

Arrgggghhhh!

Now there's *three* hit-squads after me!
Gotta run and hide... 8)

Four, actually. I'm submitting your post to PETA. Why I don't know, but I feel you're harming innocent creatures somehow. :wink:

Its called a hamburger. :-P
(plenty of ketchup, hold the mayo.)
So go ahead and sic'em at me; I'm not afraid of PETAns.

Now, PALMisters, Open Sourcerors, and PODpeople; *those* are dangerous.

[Foo Fighter]

...I'm not afraid of PETAns.

http://www.digitalmediathoughts.com/images/yoda.jpg You WILL be.

[Terry]

...I'm not afraid of PETAns.

http://www.digitalmediathoughts.com/images/yoda.jpg
Be......you WILL...

[lapchinj]

Arrgggghhhh!

Now there's *three* hit-squads after me!
Gotta run and hide... 8)
Hey don't sweat it. Those hit squads are still figuring out what to do with that train in the tunnel. 8) Besides it was a good post and should enlighten some people to the fact that there really is a train comming so they better get moving.

Another interesting point that could be mentioned is that "ALL" the PPC users that I know (myself included) have started out using a Palm not a PPC. Asking them why they started with a Palm and the answer was simply that they though that all PDA's were made by Palm. Once they started looking at the PDA world they saw that Palm wasn't the only PDA game in town. They actually found out that there was grass on the other side and that it was greener.

This is what I said before about riding the wave of a huge installed user base and having awsome name recognition. They stood still and refused to come up with anything innovative while both the hardware and Billy boy came steamrolling along. Palm can try all kinds of marketing angles and try to make it look like they have the latest and greatest but that just don't work anymore. People can really see through the smoke.

Jeff-

[Darius Wey]

Asking them why they started with a Palm and the answer was simply that they though that all PDA's were made by Palm. Once they started looking at the PDA world they saw that Palm wasn't the only PDA game in town. They actually found out that there was grass on the other side and that it was greener.

That's the problem. The public is so misinformed about what is and isn't available in the world of mobile devices. Nothing ticks you off more than whipping out your Pocket PC and having someone come up to you and says "Wow, is that a Palm Pilot?" :?

I believe Microsoft (and its partners) should push for better advertising of Windows Mobile. Whatever the medium - TV, mainstream technology websites, newspapers, etc. It would definitely help those consumers who believe Palm is the only mobile device company around.

[Doug Raeburn]

Another interesting point that could be mentioned is that "ALL" the PPC users that I know (myself included) have started out using a Palm not a PPC. Asking them why they started with a Palm and the answer was simply that they though that all PDA's were made by Palm. Once they started looking at the PDA world they saw that Palm wasn't the only PDA game in town. They actually found out that there was grass on the other side and that it was greener.

Not me... I could have been the poster child for following what Microsoft had spinning around in their collective heads regarding portable computing, since I went through 2 different handheld PCs (Cassiopeia A-11 and A-20) as my first PDAs. I certainly was aware of Palms and other PDAs (like the Palm-size PC), but I remember thinking of the now ubiquitous form factor along these lines... "How dumb... how can you get any real work done without a real keyboard." Of course, I remained in complete denial of the fact that I wasn't getting any real work done at all with those handheld PCs... they were 100% cool factor. "Look, I have a miniature version of Windows 95 on this thing that doesn't even have to boot! And I can connect to my ISP, read and send e-mail and actually do web surfing! How cool is that?"

At least I've always worn my geekhood with the greatest of pride... :wink:

Then a coworker with whom I was engaged in a bitter and ongoing battle for the title of alpha geek showed up one day with this new Cassiopeia E-15 Palm-size PC thing. Well, as I did the requisite research to see if this new round in our battle had any merit, I came to the realization that Microsoft was actually going in the direction of that "dumb form factor" without a keyboard, and the units with keyboards were phasing out. Although initially panicky, I finally had a zen moment when I realized that he had just handed me my pocket protector on a silver platter. It was a decisive win, and he deserved the title of alpha geek, so I tried to be gracious in defeat.

The graciousness didn't last long. About a week later, I decided to get a little bit of revenge, geek style. First, I went out and bought my own E-15. We were both early starters at work, but I always beat him there by about 1/2 hour. I waited until he had just gotten there but before he had unpacked his junk for the day. Then I grabbed my E-15 and walked past him while playing with it. Then I said something to the effect that "You're right, this thing is pretty cool!", acting as if I had gone into his stuff and grabbed his E-15 and just started playing with it without asking his permission. "I didn't think you'd mind if I tried it out a bit myself." I had him a bit speechless that I'd have the audacity to just commandeer his pride and joy... "Sure... I guess it's OK." The look on his face was priceless... but then I finally let him off the hook and told him that I had actually gone out and gotten my own E-15, and that's what I was playing with. I'm just glad that he didn't get genuinely pissed at me for messing with him like that. But at least I had gotten a small measure of revenge for my defeat at his hands for the alpha geek title. Geek humor... gotta love it.

This was more of a techie geek setting. Shortly afterwards, I left that company and went to a company that was more along the lines of the "business geek" level, and I still work there today. Here I had my Palm-size PC that I brought to all the meetings and all of the geeks there were carrying their Palm IIIe's, with the alphas carrying Palm V's. And all of them looked at me with my MS-based PDA as if I had just grown a third eye. "What's that thing? Oh, it's not a real Palm..." as they dismissed me as some kind of geek poseur.

But I took it in stride. I inevitably came to the point where my quest for toys began calling to me once again. So I rationalized a new toy purchase by saying to myself... "there are so many of my kind out there at work using these Palms... there must be something to it. Perhaps I must check it out myself." So I went out to Circuit City and bought my own Palm V, figuring that I'd use that at work to "fit in" better, and use my E-15 as my toy at home.

After spending several hours that night setting the thing up, I was left quite unimpressed. "This thing's graphics suck by comparison to my E-15, and the software is so primitive... not like the desktop stuff at all. And the PIM can't handle lots of my Outlook data." Clearly I had bought into the MS approach quite heavily, although very few others did at that point in time.

So the following day I packed the whole mess up and returned it to Circuit City, exchanging it for a second E-15. One I could play with at home to my heart's content, and the other would be my work unit for really serious work. But then I also got real serious about the work unit thing and went out and got Intellisync (yuck) so that I could synch with Lotus Notes (double yuck), the PIM that we use there.

Once I canned Intellisync and found Commontime Cadenza (now mNotes, the only real way to go if you want to use a PDA with Lotus Notes), there was no stopping me. I skipped the color Palm-size PCs and resisted a bit when the first Pocket PCs came out before rationalizing one of them into my toy collection... a Casio E-115. (Great screen, but way too slow.) Then a Casio E-125 (Still a great screen and much better speed. But too much of a brick.) Then my first iPAQ, a 3630. The screen sucked compared to the Casio's, but it was small and light and fast. But much more importantly, it was the cool PDA at the time. The iPAQ was the first MS platform PDA that became a "gotta have it" product... the iPAQs were the PDA to have, and the Palms were suddenly so... last year. So rather than being the odd man out among the legions of Palm devotees with the "ersatz Palm wannabee" as before, now I had the latest and coolest thing in PDAs, and all those Palm snobs were now eating my dust. I had reached my true goal... recognized as the uncontested alpha geek there, and I hold that position to this day. Not to mention the fact that I'm "published" on a major Pocket PC site (this one) and I'm even the review coordinator AND an administrator. So now not only was I the uncontested alpha geek, but I managed to push the envelope for the position considerably. I had achieved true geek nirvana, and all was right with the world. 8)

And yes, pathetic really IS my middle name. No, not really, but it probably should be... :wink:

What's really happening here is that I'm recovering from major surgery and the meds make it hard for me to sleep. So I've been killing time by writing. I hope Jason sees this message, because he's been the recipient of a couple of these outrageous ramblings, so he'll probably get a kick out of this one, too. I always get a good laugh reading about someone else's ascendency into true geekhood, and I love to compare notes. :grouphug:

Now, if I had enough new products to work with and could harness this energy into writing reviews, the whole review team could probably take the rest of the year off... :rotfl:

[Fishie]

Awesome post man.

[Gekko]

"Death can come swiftly to a market leader. By the time you have lost the positive-feedback cycle it's often too late to change what you've been doing, and all of the elements of a negative spiral come into play." - Bill Gates, "The Road Ahead", Chapter 3

"In this business, by the time you realize you're in trouble, it's too late to save yourself. Unless you're running scared all the time, you're gone." - Bill Gates

[Felix Torres]

Another interesting point that could be mentioned is that "ALL" the PPC users that I know (myself included) have started out using a Palm not a PPC. Asking them why they started with a Palm and the answer was simply that they though that all PDA's were made by Palm. Once they started looking at the PDA world they saw that Palm wasn't the only PDA game in town. They actually found out that there was grass on the other side and that it was greener.


Well, *my* progression started on the HPC side; NEC mobilePro --> Philips Velo --> HP568 + IBM z50 --> HP Tc1000 (tablet PC) :-)
(My next toy will likely be an iMate jam.)

But yes, a lot of PocketPC users started on the Palm side and then moved up as the "zen of simplicity" became too limited.
Old timers around here remember the old mantra: "Palms are connected organizers, PPCs are pocket computers!"

Well, nowadays Palm is trying to build pocket computers by adding hardware features to the old architecture. But me, I find the results...puzzling...
Last year they embedded a thumb-drive in a PDA; this year they embedded a micro-drive. Both have some uses, but are hardly revolutionary, certainly not to folks who have been using CF microdrives for years (during which I haven't heard of any six second lag issues...?)

What I've seen of late that should be troubling to Palm isn't losing high-end customers to PocketPCs--that's old news as you point out--but that now they're losing *low-end* customers to alternatives; a friend of mine got his wife a Motorola 220--out when a Palm. I also saw two others get Creative Labs Zen Micros, this week, and out went two more palms. One of the latter is using the digital music player as a USB hard drive to both hold her personal Outlook PST file at work and home *and* to sync the contacts, schedule, and to-do list with the player software. Since all she used the Palm for was to look up the data, not input it, the Zen works like a charm and gives her all she'd need from the Lifedrive for a third the cost.

I hear similar stories of POD people using the vestigial PDA features in the iPOD and I have to wonder how many blister-pack ZIRE sales are being lost to digital music players instead of cellphones and PPCs...
(Keep an eye on the Sony PSP, Gizmondo, and the second-gen PMCs due this year, too.)

If this continues, how could PALM move upstream in a market with JAMs, MDAiv's, Samsung Nexio's, and the upcoming mini-Tablet PCs...?

The clock is ticking and I have yet to see any signs that either the hardware or the software side of the platform is capable of delivering anything like a contemporary high-end pocket computer to offset the low-end losses. A death-spiral may be in the making... :?

We all expected PALM to be squeezed between PPCs and smartphones, but when they start losing customers to music players and portable game-players...

[Foo Fighter]

If this continues, how could PALM move upstream in a market with JAMs, MDAiv's, Samsung Nexio's, and the upcoming mini-Tablet PCs...?

Well Palm still has the right mix of features and industrial design with Treo 650. I myself am this >*&lt; close to buying an Unlocked GSM model for myself (I get a special Press discount). The only thing holding me back is that I haven't yet really had a chance to peruse the WinMob side of the Smartphone fence, and there are a lot of interesting devices in that category. iMate's JAM looks like something that would give me reason to pause in purchasing a Treo right away.

But my experience with the review unit PalmOne sent me impressed me so much I fell IN LOVE with the Treo 650. You guys can criticize PalmOne or Psource all you want, but the fact is PalmOne has one of the best (perhaps even THE) Smartphone hardware/software designs on the market today, even putting the Blackberry to shame. And that's not something I would dismiss so quickly.

[Felix Torres]

Well Palm still has the right mix of features and industrial design with Treo 650. I myself am this >*&lt; close to buying an Unlocked GSM model for myself (I get a special Press discount). The only thing holding me back is that I haven't yet really had a chance to peruse the WinMob side of the Smartphone fence, and there are a lot of interesting devices in that category. iMate's JAM looks like something that would give me reason to pause in purchasing a Treo right away.


Different tastes.
&lt;shrug>
I've looked at the Treo but I find it an odd fit for my hands.
The ergonomics don't work for me.
Plus it wastes valuable surface area on that itty-bity keyboard.
Me, I don't IM or SMS or compose on the road; I have three PCs for that kind of stuff.
The Jam, on the other hand is thin and light, has WMP10 and MS Reader, and it works with MS Voice command.
Phone, media player, and ebook reader are three devices I own and can consolidate into one with the Jam. Add in a Yahoo music subscription and a 1Gb SD card and I have a compelling package for *my* needs.

Price is a bit high but I still might bite the bullet.
(right now I'm waiting to see what the story is on WM5 and the Jam.)

The thing about Palm and the Treo, though, is that it is not a volume device. (Neither is the Jam, but the Jam is part of a broad ecosystem that sustains many compatible devices.)

Palm once had 100% of the PDA market.
Now its down to 29%.
Treo is not going to grow that.
Lifedrive won't either.
Which means that that 29%, which is still dominated by Zire sales, is never going to be higher.

Palm essentially bet the farm on volume and market share; to turn around this late in the game and go for high-margin low volume products will only feed the market share decline and the perception of a death spiral.
And, alas, history has shown us that nothing starts a death-spiral faster than the "perception" that one is under way.

[Gekko]

I had a Treo 600 (Sprint) for a few days. The Treo might be the best smartphone on the market today, but that still doesn't make it a great phone. The poor sound quality, shoody craftsmanship, bugginess, fragility, clunky size would not allow me to replace my bulletproof little Nokia phone. It was a poor cell phone and a marginal PDA (relative to My Nokia 6560 and Palm T3)

Voice/Cell Phone reliability/sound quality is very important to me - especially since I speak with my customers every day on my Cell Phone. The last thing I need is to irritate my customers because they can't hear me or vice-versa - or if I miss their calls. It's just not acceptable. I think I (and most of us) have been really spoiled with the great job that companies like Nokia, Motorola and others have done in advancing cell phone technology - from a sound quality/size/reliability/durability/battery-life standpoint. Now granted, most of these "dumb" phones have only rudimentary PIM functions - so the less complexity - the less room for problems - but how much PIM functionality do the "masses" need?

There are a few guys in my office who still use the Treo 600 but they always biitch and complain about them - (screens go blank/resets/missed calls/poor sound/other defects). And if you look at the posts on TreoCentral.com - there's tons of horror stories. Maybe I'm too picky but I won't stand for that in 2005 - and I need to be accessible.

I think the T650 is even more buggy due to the adding of NVFS. A cell phone can not afford to be buggy in 2005. Most people like me won't stand for it - we're too spoiled.

I think the smartphones look great on paper - and the Treo line may be the best out there now - but I think we'll need to wait a few more generations (if ever) before they reach the PHONE-quality of the Nokia, Motorola products.

[surur]

I obviously have not used one, but my perception has always been that Palm specialized in adding "nice touches" which improves usability, while MS leaves this up to third party developers.

MS has quite far to go in "delight their customers" and making people fall in love with the ease of use of their devices vs the power and extensibility.

Surur

[Gekko]

If this continues, how could PALM move upstream in a market with JAMs, MDAiv's, Samsung Nexio's, and the upcoming mini-Tablet PCs...?

Well Palm still has the right mix of features and industrial design with Treo 650. I myself am this >*&lt; close to buying an Unlocked GSM model for myself (I get a special Press discount). The only thing holding me back is that I haven't yet really had a chance to peruse the WinMob side of the Smartphone fence, and there are a lot of interesting devices in that category. iMate's JAM looks like something that would give me reason to pause in purchasing a Treo right away.

But my experience with the review unit PalmOne sent me impressed me so much I fell IN LOVE with the Treo 650. You guys can criticize PalmOne or Psource all you want, but the fact is PalmOne has one of the best (perhaps even THE) Smartphone hardware/software designs on the market today, even putting the Blackberry to shame. And that's not something I would dismiss so quickly.

Foo - Did you ever buy a Treo? I remember when you were championing a "Bring the Treo To Verizon" petition about 2 years ago - and bitching and complaining that Verizon didn't offer it - and then you finally got your wish on the 600 and now the 650. Are you *STILL* dragging your feet after all that bitching? Be careful what you wish for?

[Foo Fighter]

Foo - Did you ever buy a Treo? I remember when you were championing a "Bring the Treo To Verizon" petition about 2 years ago - and bitching and complaining that Verizon didn't offer it - and then you finally got your wish on the 600 and now the 650. Are you *STILL* dragging your feet after all that bitching? Be careful what you wish for?

I dumped Verizon earlier this year and went with Cingular, in part to the flexibility of phone options on GSM networks (just pop your SIM card into your new phone..and away you go). I bitched at Verizon because they are ALWAYS last to adopt new phone models, and by the time they do, replacement models arrive.

I didn't go with the 600 series because of the hardware limitations (160x160 display, no Bluetooth, etc.). Now the 650 series nearly has me jumping onboard, but I want to check out Windows Mobile options first..particularly the JAM. I'm supposed to be receiving a JAM from iMate for review, as well as a Siemens SX66. Can't wait to see how they stack up. Of the two I'm more impressed by the JAM because of its smaller design and more phone-like form factor.

[Gekko]

yeah - I'm with AT&amp;T/Cingular now too - my contract is up in November 2005. I'm probably switching to Verizon - they have the best voice coverage on the East Coast. THE PHONES SUCK compared to AT&amp;T/Cingular!!!!! BUT - Voice/Coverage comes first, bells and whistles come second.

I love Nokia and have a STRONG brand loyalty to them - my last 5+ phones have been Nokia. I love their user-friendly GUI, excellent RF reception, great sound quality, and great build-quality/durability. I'd love to see Verizon offer a tiny Palm OS Nokia (and No Thumboard/No NVFS) - but we know that ain't ever going to happen.

One thing that does suck about every Nokia I've seen is that both the IR and the BT will only accept ONE contact at a time! So if you IR/BT your "Send Category" list of Contacts - the Nokia will turn off the connection after ONE contact! This takes away a big advantage of the Nokias. It's my understanding that the SonyEricsson models have no problem with multiple contacts.

I guess I'll be stuck with the Nokia 6015i if/when I move to VZW.

Looking forward to your JAM review.

Have a nice Memorial Day. Go have a few drinks tonight.

[Foo Fighter]

The Jam, on the other hand is thin and light, has WMP10 and MS Reader, and it works with MS Voice command.

Yes, but unfortunately JAM isn't upgradeable to WM5, so you're stuck with 2003se.

Phone, media player, and ebook reader are three devices I own and can consolidate into one with the Jam. Add in a Yahoo music subscription and a 1Gb SD card and I have a compelling package for *my* needs.

I'd like it even more if had a VGA display. I hate to say this but PPC's QVGA resolution looks primitive compared to even a HVGA Palm.

Price is a bit high but I still might bite the bullet.

True, but I look at this way; you're still paying about the same as you would for two separate devices, even less in some cases. I'm less concerned about price and more concerned with am I getting a device that will truly serve my needs without sacrificing features/functionality/style/design, etc.


(right now I'm waiting to see what the story is on WM5 and the Jam.)

Which story? Upgradeability? Not going to happen. But if you're wondering if there will be new JAM model(s) running WM5, the answer is yes...later this year. I was told that by the folks at iMate.

The thing about Palm and the Treo, though, is that it is not a volume device. (Neither is the Jam, but the Jam is part of a broad ecosystem that sustains many compatible devices.)

Another factor is that confidence in PalmOS is eroding. Not simply because of the rise of Windows Mobile, but because of the schizophrenic platform strategy by PalmSource. They sank their fortunes into Cobalt and then Osborned the OS by announcing a radical shift to Linux. Not only will this clumsy approach ward of potential licensees (which is already happening), it will even give third party software developers reason to pause and question the long term viability of this platform. PalmOS is already a mess to program for.

Palm once had 100% of the PDA market.
Now its down to 29%.

There are still those who believe that much of this decline is due to a collective "wait and see" stance by consumers and business users waiting on Cobalt devices. I don't subscribe to this theory myself, especially in light of the fact there probably won't BE any Cobalt devices, at least no here in the States anyway.

Treo is not going to grow that.

No, the only impact Treo is having is cannibalizing standard PDA sales. Which in itself is significant because it means higher revenues for Palm, and signals the general decline of PDAs in the face of Smartphones.

LifeDrive won't either.

Agreed. Frankly I think LifeDrive is going to be a flop. It's too expensive and offers no real advantage over other Palm devices, save for higher storage capacity. An embedded 4GB HD is nothing to sneeze at, but LifeDrive is NOT part of some revolutionary new category of mobile device. There is no such animal as a "Media Manager". That moniker exists only in the minds of Palm's marketing team. LifeDrive is little more than a Tungsten T5 with a built-in HD.

Which means that that 29%, which is still dominated by Zire sales, is never going to be higher.

Actually Tungsten E/E2 series dominates sales, not the Zires. The T|E is PalmOne's single best selling handheld.

Palm essentially bet the farm on volume and market share; to turn around this late in the game and go for high-margin low volume products will only feed the market share decline and the perception of a death spiral.
And, alas, history has shown us that nothing starts a death-spiral faster than the "perception" that one is under way.

I kind of disagree with you here, just a bit. Agree with the death spiral perception, but PalmOne isn't dying. In fact, if the company plays its cards right it could become a thriving powerhouse handheld/smartphone vendor. How? First they need to end their dependency on PalmOS. Right now their single biggest problem is that their entire fortunes are pinned on the health and vitality of PalmOS in the marketplace. If PalmOS is thriving and growing, consumers and business users will gobble up Palm-powered handhelds. If PalmOS is in decline (which we already know to be the case), then Palm handheld sales will decline (which we also know to be the case). Palm needs to cease this practice at once and begin offering products based on "other" software platforms. Not talking about ditching PalmOS here, just offering Windows Mobile, Symbian, Linux, or perhaps even Blackberry (if RIM decides to license out its OS) devices that exist in parallel to Palm's Palm-powered offering. Think about it...Palm would be the only hardware vendor in the entire industry that offers a buffet of software platforms. Of course, to do that would require original thinking and a willingness to depart from the company's old school Palm DNA.

When I was testing the Treo 650 for review, dozens of people I know said the same thing when I showed it to them: "Great device...too bad it doesn't run Pocket PC". There is a serious market opportunity (especially in corporate environments) for a Treo running Windows Mobile. I believe it would outsell the Palm model.

[Doug Raeburn]

I dumped Verizon earlier this year and went with Cingular

How's your signal strength with Cingular? And as part 2 of the question, I know it's none of my damn business, but what part of the country are you from? I'm thinking of switching to Cingular now that they're getting the Audiovox SmartPhone, but my sister and her husband use Cingular in our area in the Midwest and they always seem to have trouble with weak signal.

Sorry if this is OT...

[Felix Torres]

Yes, but unfortunately JAM isn't upgradeable to WM5, so you're stuck with 2003se.

Which would not kill me.
I'm looking to buy applications and functionality, not tech per se.
I might want to see a bit of a price drop, but 2003se is fine for me as long as wmp10 is part of the deal.

And you're right about the price being the same as two separate devices, but I'd be willing to pay a *small* premium for a single box solution.
If I simply wanted two separate devices, I could go get a free Razr cellphone and a dell 50v and be $200 cheaper than the Jam.

The other thing I'm thinking of is there are rumors of a Jam follow-up coming. That might do the trick.

As for Palm dying, I don't think it will.
However, they are falling into the same trap as pre-pod Apple where the company is profitable while the market share (and its market relevance) withers away.

Apple used to own up to 20% of the PC market at one point but the bungled transition to PowerPC (where they didn't get a proper native OS for the architecture until OS/x came out) got them into a death spiral that has them stuck at 1.5% market share today.
Its a profitable 1.5%, mind you, and in the eyes of the general media they get the hype that goes along with a 60% market share, but its still only 1.5%. They get outsold 60-to-1 every single day of the year.

So the company survives but the product is a footnote.

Palm is headed the same way.
They still have time to tun it around but they don't have *much* time.
A year at most.

First they need to decide if Palm is a brand, a platform, or a product.
If it is to be a brand, they need to diversify as of yesterday.
Doesn't matter if its Radio Shack-style diversification; get new Palm products out there that are not PDAs.
Get a camera.
Get a music player or three.
Get a pure cell-phone line.

Just find a way of breaking away from the tired old Palm OS product.
Now, it may be that a Palm-branded PocketPC might help but I doubt it.
All it would achieve is to drive home the point (factual or not, it doesn't matter; I'm talking perception) that even the people making Palm PDAs admit PPC is the way to go.

The danger of falling into a death-spiral is that it is a self-fulfilling prophecy; once the perception is out there that you are a company in decline, people start to stay away, thereby making the decline real. And when you're talking about a single product company, the risks go way up. Most of the time, even doing the right thing is useless because once the coolest of cool stops being cool, nothing can bring cool back.

Simple test: Is Word Perfect Office a good product?
Does anybody care?

That may be Palm's fate...

[Jeff Kirvin]

Jeff is such a partisan that listening to him is pretty much a waste of time. He uses misinformation, half-facts, and false equivocations in his attempts to validate his beliefs. When confronted with real facts, he has avoided to respond to some of my questions to him. He can blog, podcast, or publish all he wants but he already compromised his credibility so I really don't react to much of his spin and propaganda.

Really? Care to cite some of the "misinformation, half-facts and false equivocations"? Any questions for me now that I'm actually "in the room", so to speak?

Now that the Lifedrive has wifi, he probably thinks that wifi on a pda is good. The last time he and I chatted, he felt the bluetooth was all you'll ever need and wifi was a waste.

Eh, take it or leave it. It won't stop me from buying a LifeDrive, but I expect to leave the WiFi radio off 99.9% of the time. Saves a lot of battery life that way, and I personally don't spend much time at all in hotspots (YMMV).

[Jeff Kirvin]

Now after hearing him in this podcast, I have mental images of him in a large tent on a hot Sunday in the Dust Bowl, holding a rattlesnake in one hand and a LifeDrive in the other, saying "Repent, sinners..." Rock of Ages is being played (or perhaps pounded is the more accurate term) from an old upright piano in the corner.

Dude, it's radio, it's a performance. Who would have listened to Howard Stern if he sounded like Ben Stein?

[Jeff Kirvin]

I've read his website sporadically for a few years now
I had never heard of Jeff K until this thread. I was reading the original front page post wondering who the heck he was. I guessed that he was a Palm executive of some sort.

I almost was. I flew out to San Jose in March to interview for the Director of Competitive Analysis job. Didn't get it, but the trip was fun and I enjoyed meeting the folks at PalmSource face to face.

[Doug Raeburn]

Dude, it's radio, it's a performance.

Thanks for clearing that up... the clever disguise fooled many of us.

Who would have listened to Howard Stern if he sounded like Ben Stein?

Probably as many people who will continue to listen to you if you continue to sound like you. Which is best described by pointing out your obvious homage to that other award-winning piece of performance art, "Gilbert Gottfried Hits Puberty - Puberty Hits Back."

But one thing has changed... Tara Reid in "Alone In The Dark" now has some serious competition for this year's definition of "painful". And may I point out that you mentioning Howard Stern and your podcast in the same breath is kinda like Ashton Kutcher mentioning Marlon Brando in a discussion of his performance in "Dude, Where's My Car?" In fact, even mentioning Ben Stein in the same breath is kinda like that.

Anyway, if they give awards for these things, like the Poddies, you could be up for best impression of having an extended on-the-air incident with one's thong after drinking 3 Starbucks Vente Komodo Dragon Blend Lattes. A more apt description suggests itself, but after all, this is a family site.

Oh, and in case you're still totally unclear about the intent of my first message, what I described was also a performance... dude.

[Foo Fighter]

"Gentlemen, please! You can't fight in here, this is the War room!" - Peter Sellers in Dr. Strangelove

[Doug Raeburn]

"Gentlemen, please! You can't fight in here, this is the War room!" - Peter Sellers in Dr. Strangelove

Well, Foo, Jeff apparently thinks that I'm too clueless to realize that his podcasts are what some people may refer to as a "performance". I just wanted to make sure that he's entirely clear on the fact that I'm fully aware of what he's attempting to do, and have been all along. As for how successful he's been, well, I've already made my opinion on that abundantly clear.

By the way, a quote from Dr. Strangelove couldn't be more appropriate here... I think this whole discussion is surreal enough to fit very well into the actual movie.

Gotta run... I'm busy babysitting. My niece just took my nephew's stuffed animal away and the poor little guy is pitching a performance.

[surur]

Actually Jeff has got me hooked. I now download his podcasts regularly to see if he will say anything stupid again. I think thats a large part of the success of right-wing talk radio.

Surur

[lapchinj]

...We all expected PALM to be squeezed between PPCs and smartphones, but when they start losing customers to music players and portable game-players...
I hope you don't mean that they will start to fight back. If they did it would only be in order to stay in business not because of the poor people that are using their product. But it might just be too late for them to bounce back unless they come up with something really cool and make people forget about OS behavioral problems. Like what could they come up you ask that would make people buy their product. How about a free PPC with Bluetooth and WiFi like the Dell x50v when you buy a palmOne Zire 31 PDA. I know I would buy one and I would even sign a "I love PalmOne" petition attesting to the real neat features added to the Palm line. :mrgreen: Now there's a deal you just can't pass up.

Jeff