New SIP in the Making?

[Darius Wey]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.pocketinformant.com/Forums/index.php?showtopic=7210' target='_blank'>http://www.pocketinformant.com/Foru...?showtopic=7210</a><br /><br /></div><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/2003/wey-20050527-AlexSIP.gif" /><br /><br />Alex from WebIS has posted on an interesting bit of news in the Blog section of his forums. If you look at the picture above, you'll notice that a new SIP is in the making. Due to an NDA, Alex cannot yet provide details on where this product is from and when it will be released, but just keep in mind that this is a third party product, and not a WebIS creation. There's also a video of it in action which you can download from <a href="http://download.pocketinformant.com/pvt/sample.AVI">here</a>. <a href="http://www.pocketinformant.com/Forums/index.php?showtopic=7210">Alex's post</a> has more information.

[alex_kac]

I should also mention, the screenshot above is an old alpha version of the SIP, while the video is a later alpha. The video also uses a DivX codec, so you'll need that to view it. The toolbar icons are placeholders.

The SIP is also the only one I know of that you can write a word/phrase out and dot the "i"s and "t"s afterward, or correct a letter with gestures. At this stage, its the most like writing on paper that I've seen.

I was given permission to float the SIP as a way of gauging interest by the developer.

[cuteseal]

Looks similar to decuma onspot... I wonder how it compares?

[alex_kac]

Well, for one thing - it supports VGA. Decuma doesn't. Second, it supports being able to dot is and dash ts at any time - instead of requiring that you do it at the time you write your letter. And finally, its got a lot of other powerful features that I cannot talk about, but lets just say it makes writing large amounts of info a lot easier.

[krypticide]

How is this an improvement on Calligrapher/Transcriber though? I like being able to write without having part of the screen used up.

[pgb5]

One of the many great things about Apple's Newton was its handwriting recognition program. Amazingly in the 8 years since, I have yet to find an application on par....but I'm always hoping. Looking forward to trying this!

[whydidnt]

It reminds me of Decuma too. Decuma is my all time favorite pen input method for PPC, but sadly was never made VGA compatible. This preview sure looks promising - I hope the end product works as good as it looks.

[MobileAGBell]

I have to agree with pgb5. Every so often I get out my MP2100, charge it up and write something on it just to see how close CaliGrapher is getting.

Add me to the list of those interested in this new product.

[alex_kac]

How is this an improvement on Calligrapher/Transcriber though? I like being able to write without having part of the screen used up.

Just like Decuma was for people who prefered to have a special spot on their screen to write with, so is this. If you don't want to do that, it can switch to onscreen writing, though unless MS makes HUGE changes to their OS at a fundamental level, you'll never see the wonderful UI that the Newton had on Windows Mobile. It requires HWR to be a fundamental design centerpiece. I'd say this is probably as close to that as you can get, without writing your own OS.

[petr]

Does the SIP support other languages than English (e.g. Central European such as Czech, Slovak ...)?

[alex_kac]

I couldn't say. Even if it did, in pre-beta form, I doubt it would be evident.

[gibson042]

It looks awesome. Asynchronous (for lack of a better term) handwriting recognition is definitely worth a try, and I love the option of picking the SIP's visibility. This will surely give Calligrapher a run for it's money (unless, of course, it is Calligrapher :twisted:).

[Jereboam]

Well there is precedent for cooperation with Phatware... (ie the free bundled PhatNotes with PI).

I only use Calligrapher (rarely) for converting handwritten notes in PhatPad, so an upgrade that would improve reliability/usability would be welcome.

Anyone dissatisfied with the QWERTY keyboard which is massively unsuited to small-screen data entry, I would steer you in Fitaly's direction. It is really a revelation and it is properly VGA-compatible. You get used to the layout very quickly.

J'bm

[Stephen Beesley]

One of the many great things about Apple's Newton was its handwriting recognition program. Amazingly in the 8 years since, I have yet to find an application on par....but I'm always hoping. Looking forward to trying this!

I have to agree with pgb5. Every so often I get out my MP2100, charge it up and write something on it just to see how close CaliGrapher is getting.

Add me to the list of those interested in this new product.

I am another who has still to find a HWR solution to match that on my Newton uMP2k (upgraded MP2000 for those non Newton people out there :D). While I use Calligrapher pretty extensively it still is not up to the standard of the Newton (even though it is developed by the same people who did the Newton Cursive recogniser and the similarities are pretty obvious).

Since I have been in a forced PocketPC free state for the last couple of weeks I have been playing around with my ol' Newts quite a bit and really am amazed at just how good the HWR (not to mention the OS intergration in general) is compared to the PPC experience.

One thing I really miss from the Newton is the ability to translate your handwriting into text in a continuing stream - not waiting until you stop writing in the way that Calligrapher/Transcriber does. This seems to be something that this new offering is able to do. If the full screen mode is as effective as the SIP panel mode seems to be then this could be just what I have been looking for on the Pocket PC.

[zilla31]

so is there any (even ballpark) clue when this might be available to test? i'm pretty hype i must say...

[Doug Raeburn]

Well there is precedent for cooperation with Phatware... (ie the free bundled PhatNotes with PI).

I only use Calligrapher (rarely) for converting handwritten notes in PhatPad, so an upgrade that would improve reliability/usability would be welcome.

Anyone dissatisfied with the QWERTY keyboard which is massively unsuited to small-screen data entry, I would steer you in Fitaly's direction. It is really a revelation and it is properly VGA-compatible. You get used to the layout very quickly.

J'bm

Pardon me for being a bit cynical, but I for one am going to be VERY wary of any new input methods. Especially after being an early adopter of products like WordLogic (where they made essentially one release and then dropped off the face of the earth, despite badly needed "round two enhancements"). And Decuma OnSpot... "Oh, now there's VGA resolution Pocket PCs? Maybe we'll have to look at them someday. Not soon, but someday."

So now we have a yet another teaser campaign for yet another input product. I doubt that I'm the only one who feels that these frequent cloak and dagger routines with the carefully meted out information are little more than ploys to manufacture more interest in a product than it would get if the information were released in a more direct and forthright manner. Many people love to think that they're being let in on some kind of secret. As for the rest of us, give us a holler when all of the NDA stuff has run its course and we can get real information on this product.

[zilla31]

yeah its def too bad how slow to update wordlogic has been - that was my all time favorite. they did recently release a VGA patch though - but i'd love to see more innovation w/ that... plus its expensive!

[Jereboam]

Well there is precedent for cooperation with Phatware... (ie the free bundled PhatNotes with PI).

I only use Calligrapher (rarely) for converting handwritten notes in PhatPad, so an upgrade that would improve reliability/usability would be welcome.

Anyone dissatisfied with the QWERTY keyboard which is massively unsuited to small-screen data entry, I would steer you in Fitaly's direction. It is really a revelation and it is properly VGA-compatible. You get used to the layout very quickly.

J'bm

Pardon me for being a bit cynical, but I for one am going to be VERY wary of any new input methods. Especially after being an early adopter of products like WordLogic (where they made essentially one release and then dropped off the face of the earth, despite badly needed "round two enhancements"). And Decuma OnSpot... "Oh, now there's VGA resolution Pocket PCs? Maybe we'll have to look at them someday. Not soon, but someday."

So now we have a yet another teaser campaign for yet another input product. I doubt that I'm the only one who feels that these frequent cloak and dagger routines with the carefully meted out information are little more than ploys to manufacture more interest in a product than it would get if the information were released in a more direct and forthright manner. Many people love to think that they're being let in on some kind of secret. As for the rest of us, give us a holler when all of the NDA stuff has run its course and we can get real information on this product.

Fitaly has been around for a while and doesn't seem to be running out of steam yet - hence it's the only one I recommend, and they came out with a solid VGA-compatible upgrade. The layout truly makes more sense on the small screen, and living in Switzerland it makes it very easy to get accented/weirdo (sorry) characters.

I bought Decuma too and enjoyed it, but had to leave it behind when I went VGA.

[whydidnt]

Doug, I can understand your frustration with Previews, etc. However, by knowing a product like this is coming out, some of us may save a few bucks by not buying a HWR product that doesn't necessarily meet all of our needs.

One thing I can't tell about this "new" product is whether it allows changes to the characters after recognition, but before entering the text, like Decuma did. For those of us with awful handwriting that was a godsend.

I certainly understand those who support Fitaly, but I've tried it on a couple of occasions and the left side of my brain is just too slow to adapt to a new keyboard layout. The learning curve was too steep for me. I could never get above about 12 WPM with it.

I've resigned myself to using a thumboard for most text entry as that is the least frustrating for me. However that limits my choices in hardware and adds bulk to whatever I carry so I hold out hope for a pen system that works well for me.

[alex_kac]

One thing I can't tell about this "new" product is whether it allows changes to the characters after recognition, but before entering the text, like Decuma did. For those of us with awful handwriting that was a godsend. .

I believe I answered that already. Yes, it does allow changes in real time to characters after recognition, but before entering text.

[Doug Raeburn]

Doug, I can understand your frustration with Previews, etc. However, by knowing a product like this is coming out, some of us may save a few bucks by not buying a HWR product that doesn't necessarily meet all of our needs.

You misunderstand my position... I have no issue with previews. My issue is with the fact that suddenly, everything needs an NDA or code name or some kind of mechanism that "requires" information to be meted out. Perhaps this makes sense in some market spaces where competitors have lots of fundamental similarities, but I'm struggling with the need for this in the SIP space, since there's little opportunity for cross pollenation of ideas, especially with this clearly is a "non-traditional" input method, rather than some sort of variation on QWERTY. Does Textware have any real reason to fear that, say, Zi will steal one of their ideas when their operating paradigms are so fundamentally different? Don't think so. (Just pulling names out of a hat, not implying anything about any of these companies.)

I'm just getting to the point where I'm convinced that the proliferation of NDAs and code names is really just an attempt to stimulate interest by keeping information just out of your reach. Interest that a flat out news item about something like this SIP would fail to generate. But based on the post Alex made while I was writing this one, I could very well be wrong about this. And I hope I am.

[alex_kac]

Well there is precedent for cooperation with Phatware... (ie the free bundled PhatNotes with PI).

I only use Calligrapher (rarely) for converting handwritten notes in PhatPad, so an upgrade that would improve reliability/usability would be welcome.

Anyone dissatisfied with the QWERTY keyboard which is massively unsuited to small-screen data entry, I would steer you in Fitaly's direction. It is really a revelation and it is properly VGA-compatible. You get used to the layout very quickly.

J'bm

Pardon me for being a bit cynical, but I for one am going to be VERY wary of any new input methods. Especially after being an early adopter of products like WordLogic (where they made essentially one release and then dropped off the face of the earth, despite badly needed "round two enhancements"). And Decuma OnSpot... "Oh, now there's VGA resolution Pocket PCs? Maybe we'll have to look at them someday. Not soon, but someday."

So now we have a yet another teaser campaign for yet another input product. I doubt that I'm the only one who feels that these frequent cloak and dagger routines with the carefully meted out information are little more than ploys to manufacture more interest in a product than it would get if the information were released in a more direct and forthright manner. Many people love to think that they're being let in on some kind of secret. As for the rest of us, give us a holler when all of the NDA stuff has run its course and we can get real information on this product.

Doug, I completely understand you and believe you have the right attitude. My feeling is that unless its released - its vaporware. Nothing more. And I don't expect anyone to deal with it differently.

But let me address a few of your comments. First of all let me introduce to you how this occurred. This was never meant to be on PPC Thoughts. Here is how things transpired.

As you may (or may not) know, I am one of the few Pocket PC developers that actually use the device regularly. I know several who do, but many more who don't. So I always have comments and thoughts about the software on the PPC. I'm also in the position to be able to talk to the developers of the apps I use because of the trade shows and conferences I attend and in some cases affect change or improvement.

In this case, last year at the Handango Dev conference I was speaking to this developer about my frustrations with current SIPs and data entry in general. I REALLY wanted something that could get into the system like the Newton OR something that was a cross between Letter Recognizer and Calligrapher because neither really suited me. Calligrapher was great and all, but because you just wrote on screen without any guides, I tended to cover up my text and wait for it to recognize, and then lose my train of thought. Letter Recognizer just sucked in its recognition, but I like its line rules and such.

So I spent quite a bit of time with this developer explaining my idea to him/her. I continue to converse with that developer for quite a long time over the course of the year. Recently that person emails me with an alpha. We talk about how its going and how it can be improved. I play with it as it takes shape. I then talk to them about it and they aren't so sure about all my ideas so I say "hey let me post some screenshots and such on my forum so I can get feedback from other users on how it works". I also post it to my beta group. I get extremely detailed feedback and so I post it back to them and they listen and make changes. What a great feedback loop we've got here. I then make the video to kind of highlight some of how it works - and bam, it gets on PPCThoughts.

Now I dare not say more, but I have a feeling that your other concerns will be addressed as far as the company's staying power and its dedication to a long term focus on the market. The matter on who/what for this new SIP will be made public fairly soon, I'm told.

So the intent was originally to just get feedback from the customers on our forum - nothing more, nothing less. It got blown up quite a bit, and I believe that's a testament to how much people desire something better. But it was never intended as a PR stunt.

[Doug Raeburn]

...and bam, it gets on PPCThoughts.

Now I dare not say more, but I have a feeling that your other concerns will be addressed as far as the company's staying power and its dedication to a long term focus on the market. The matter on who/what for this new SIP will be made public fairly soon, I'm told.

So the intent was originally to just get feedback from the customers on our forum - nothing more, nothing less. It got blown up quite a bit, and I believe that's a testament to how much people desire something better. But it was never intended as a PR stunt.

Fair enough, Alex... if this ends up being a true revolution in input methods, you will have my undying gratitude.

And although our "I heart..." t-shirts list different PIM products :wink:, I am and always have been a big input method junkie, so here's my offer to write one of the first reviews of this new product. And if the product advances the state of the art to the degree that you expect it to, it'll be a killer review. Just a thought....

[Darius Wey]

and bam, it gets on PPCThoughts.

Eh, sorry Alex. You know me and my eyes. If I spot something that I think the community will want to see, I post on it. And I know a lot of people in the past expressed disappointment in Decuma's death (for lack of a better word), so I knew they'd be interested in seeing something like this.

[alex_kac]

Its not a problem - just was unexpected :)

[Flynn Arrowstarr]

I don't know if anyone else has noticed this or not, but looking at the screenshot, this reminds me very much of one of the HWR for the Tablet PCs after SP2 is installed. That's not a slam against this product though, as I happen to like the HWR on the tablets.

If the final product is similar to the tablet's software, I would definately be interested. :mrgreen:

Flynn

[Darius Wey]

I don't know if anyone else has noticed this or not, but looking at the screenshot, this reminds me very much of one of the HWR for the Tablet PCs after SP2 is installed. That's not a slam against this product though, as I happen to like the HWR on the tablets. If the final product is similar to the tablet's software, I would definately be interested. :mrgreen:

Well the screenshot is an old alpha representation of the product. The video probably presents a better representation of what the working product looks like at the moment, but I wouldn't be half surprised if everything changes by the time the final product is released, since that's what beta testing is all about: feedback, and alterations being made to the product when necessary.