Apple Scrapped the PDA Because... [Archive]

Darius Wey

05-24-2005, 04:00 PM

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.smh.com.au/news/Next/The-god-of-iPod/2005/05/23/1116700623748.html' target='_blank'>http://www.smh.com.au/news/Next/The...6700623748.html</a><br /><br /></div><i>"When Steve Jobs was installed as Apple's interim CEO, among the products he axed was the Newton, the world's first practical PDA. It was released prematurely but had a promising future... In 2001, Jobs explained: "You can't imagine how many people think we're crazy for not doing a Palm. I won't lie; we thought about it a lot. But I started asking myself, how useful are they, really? How many people at a given meeting show up with one? I don't think early cultures had organisers, but I do know they had music. It's in our DNA.""</i><br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/2003/wey-20050524-Jobs.jpg" /><br /><br />If you've ever wondered why Apple chose to walk the iPod path instead of the PDA path, then this <a href="http://www.smh.com.au/news/Next/The-god-of-iPod/2005/05/23/1116700623748.html">Sydney Morning Herald article</a> is certainly worth a read. Jobs says PDAs aren't all that useful, but I believe anyone could put his claim to the test by looking at the raging success of Windows Mobile devices. Besides, if Apple wanted to take a swipe at the PDA market, all they would need to do is make their PDA white, bundle it with some iconic earphones, and in this day and age, it'll probably sell like hot cakes! But hey, if you Apple fans don't get your wish anytime soon, then consider the <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=38917">iPoc</a> the next best thing. :lol:

emuelle1

05-24-2005, 04:22 PM

The ipod is selling very well, that's for sure.

Jason Lee

05-24-2005, 04:36 PM

HAHAHAHA.. i thought palm had a crazy marketing strategy. "Simple devices for simple people."

But this? Apple is marketing towards homo habilis??? eeh?
"Early modern humans didn't need pdas so neither do we."

Let me guess, Steve doesn't have a car or a microwave either....

"Early modern humans didn't need electricity so neither do we."

8O :roll:

Sven Johannsen

05-24-2005, 04:43 PM

I don't think he is that far from the mark. Look at the forum entries here and compare the How can I play, real, divx, ogg, avi, doom, etc, to how can I organize my life, outline a project, graph a spreadsheet questions.

A large percentage of PPC owners are very interested in turning their units into entertainment machines. We are lacking storage and battery life at this point, but not much else. The rest can be fixed with software.

I don't know if Apple slapped a half decent PIM feature into iPODs, that they would sell more, but I think it would cut into PPC sales. Many that have both might opt for just one. I think they would have to have a good MS compatibility story though. Fact is that MS is pervasive. People use Outlook in business and those are the contacts, tasks, calendar, etc you need to make portable. I think Steve would probably retch if he was confronted with having to license and include ActiveSync with his iPodPDA to sync Outlook. (Wouldn't blame him)

Felix Torres

05-24-2005, 04:49 PM

This reminds me of Scott McNeally (of SUN) pooh-poohing MS WORD as pure bloat because "the only features a word processor needs are cut and paste".

Still jobs is right, PDAs aren't very useful...if you have a dozen flunkies constantly hovering around you, keeping track of your schedule and carrying all your relevant documents.

Its all a matter of who the target customer is.
And what your inhouse capabilities are.
(Funny how the iPod has vestigial PDA features even though cavemen don't need them...)

PDANEWBIE

05-24-2005, 05:12 PM

But I started asking myself, how useful are they, really?

Let me make a note of his remarks on my PDA while I am listening to an MP3 and surfing the web.

Oh and an FYI I do take my PDA into my mettings with one. Not to say I would ever take an IPod into a meeting.

powder2000

05-24-2005, 05:16 PM

I think his logic is off a bit. Take the comment about us not needing organizers because early humans didn't need them. I think that since our lives have changed so much and since we now live and die by the calendar and time, we need all the help we can get. Music definitely is part of who we are, but being organized is who we have become. A pocket pc (or workable variant) is definitely a tool that we need to keep up with modern life. Just my two cents.

powder2000

05-24-2005, 05:21 PM

Oh yeah and if you really want to start throwing around catchy words like "DNA" Mr. Jobs, being organized and following a schedule (seasons, moons, tides) is part of ours and every other successful organisms DNA. Without a schedule we would simply be wandering around aimlessly getting lucky some times and unlucky others. While hunting and gathering, we would have babies in the winter with a very little survival rate while trying to plant crops in the the frozen soil. There is a meaningful time and place for everything we do.

Jonathan1

05-24-2005, 05:22 PM

Actually for all intents and purposes I consider my 4705 the offspring of the Newton 2100 series.
-Bigger screen then anything else on the market. (Pocket PC wise)
-Both running ARM CPU's.
-Both have\had the best screens.
-Both have flip over covers (Admittedly Apple's is better but you do get some genetic variation from generation to generation.)
-Both have multiple expansion slots.
-Both are the largest device on the market. (OK technically the rugged Pocket PC's out there take that claim but those are really specialized devices.)
-Both have a loyal following Newton\iPaq.

That being said I can only imagine what we would have now if the Newton hadn't been axed. I think the specs would be VERY similar to what the 4705 currently has with a more think outside of the box form factor, a better method of syncing, and a better GUI. I've talked to several people who were on the Newton team. Jobs had a vendetta against anything that wasn't his baby. This BS about him thinking long and hard about it? Maybe now. But back then he was all about slash and burn. Which to a point I understand what with Apple being very close to being DOA. Steve cutting out some of the fodder helped save Apple but I'm sorry if the man really had any idea of what people wanted he would have seen that the PDA is an integral part of a person and their ever increasing agenda. There simply is no way for everyone to remember all the various passwords, all the various e-mails, all the various appointments, notes, PDF files, etc, etc, etc. This is a brain extension plain and simple.
Jobs as always is a psychopathic nut job who doesn’t HAVE a superiority complex.
The guy IS a superiority complex. But what do you expect when you could put out the iToilet and there would be certain people who would claim that it’s the greatest thing EVAR. IMHO both Steve and Bill have superiority complexes. Bill's is based on the tangible, an insane market share. Steve's is based on his followers, hype, and the notion that his stuff is better then everyone else’s which is relative to the person you talk to. I’d love to see psychological workup on him. Any which way you cut it, it would be a fascinating read. Sorry I took a frontage road off topic for a second. :oops:

Gerard

05-24-2005, 05:24 PM

I don't know if this is a Canadian colloquialism or universal English but... what it comes down to is Steve Jobs being a frickin' knob. What a hoser. After all the chortling over Palm's now-withering policy of 'we don't add features because customers don't need features' - utter horse-puckey, and even they now tacitly admit it by supplying feature-rich devices - Jobs has the cajones to spout this drivel? How bizarre is the mind of the rich white man.

I've never had a car nor a microwave in my 43 years. I don't have nor want a Mac, either. I don't use cable TV, nor satellite. But I do use a PDA. Bought my first 5 years ago to better organize my life, help prevent embarrassing moments of forgotten meetings and deadlines, replace an over-filled and much-corrected addressbook, and lots of other things which a poor and servant-less person might need these days. The duties performed by my PDA have grown by vast leaps. Music, primitive or not, is just one little part of that functionality in my daily life.

Of course if Steve's referring to using a Newton today... he may have a point. But pulling his head out of his pampered butt and having a look at less lofty people's lives might just reveal the ever-increasing prevalence and utility of PDAs in meetings and elsewhere. It's hard to believe he's even living on.the same planet. Maybe he doesn't. That might explain why the Mac is still relatively marginal. A little more respect for the users would go a long way in market building.

Ah, but Steve and Bill don't need PDAs, so they're not really useful... I wonder if the sultan of Brunai needs a PDA? You know, to keep track of which of his 1000+ entertainment women hasn't had a turn at karaoke lately...

Matt Kitchen

05-24-2005, 05:37 PM

lol, you guys crack me up, Apple haters are like a school of sharks waiting for the smell of blood. First off, it was a quote taken in 2001 when the most advanced PDA was the iPaq 3635 (a little rough of an estimate) and PDA market share is not quite what it is today. Plus if you take it from a business perspective it sounds as if he was trying to pick which market to enter head on. I think he picked the right one. If they reinvented the Newton back in 2001 or 2002 do you think they would have the same splash success as the iPod is enjoying today? No, of course not, because Music appeals to everyone (which is the root of his quote) and keeping appointments does not.

I think now that they have that market very well kept they will undoubtedly make leaps into others (<a href=http://www.mozongo.com/movabletype/archives/2005/05/more_apple_rumo.html>like the tablet world</a>). They already started with the Mac mini. Steve Jobs has unfettered business savvy and I think the future of Apple is very bright.

Mark Kenepp

05-24-2005, 05:41 PM

It is not surprising that members of this site would be locking on to his comments regarding the usefulness of PDAs.

How many MP3 players are out there?

How many PDAs?

I would wonder what the sales of the iPod would be like compared to any PDA... compared to all PDA sales?

When I commute to work, I see dozens of people listening to music (mostly with an iPod, I might add) and maybe one or two with a PDA.

I don't think Jobs was saying that there is no market for PDAs, he was just saying there is a bigger market for music players.

hamishmacdonald

05-24-2005, 05:42 PM

Jobs is also talking here as if it's a choice between listening to music or being organised. The Pocket PC helps with both.

Yes, most of what's written about PDAs is not "What do you produce with yours?" but "When are you buying your next one?" and "What do you want on it?"

Steve Jobs and I obviously are living different lives. I don't have a staff to do things or keep track of my schedule for me, and my work isn't just conversations and ideas. I have to produce stuff that I get paid for. I do this on the Pocket PC.

I've also written three novels using PDAs, starting on a Newton, and since they don't make those anymore, now on a Pocket PC. Nothing beats being able to stop in a coffee shop and write a chapter when you feel inspired without having to lug along a bowling ball -- I mean, a laptop -- just in case.

I used to do multimedia for a living, but now I write full-time, so I've switched from using a Mac to using a PC, because the PC better supports my PDA. You can bet that no one in Cupertino thinks about that as a possibility. But the Pocket PC lets me do my work and send it in from anywhere, and that's the most exciting capability I get from these machines.

Jonathan1

05-24-2005, 05:49 PM

Steve Jobs has unfettered business savvy and I think the future of Apple is very bright.

Many a thing can be said of Jobs. Business savvy is NOT one of them. If it was Apple would be doing better in the business environment then what they currently are. Steve is a dreamer. He's a designer. The guy should be locked up in a lab with a team of engineers, and a huge budget. But he seriously needs to let someone else run the buisness side of Apple Inc.

Matt Kitchen

05-24-2005, 05:58 PM

Many a thing can be said of Jobs. Business savvy is NOT one of them. If it was Apple would be doing better in the business environment then what they currently are. Steve is a dreamer. He's a designer. The guy should be locked up in a lab with a team of engineers, and a huge budget. But he seriously needs to let someone else run the buisness side of Apple Inc.

I am by no means a business analyst nor have any intentions of delving in that deep. But numbers speak more than analyst's do and Apple's last quarter was larger than anyone predicted outside of Apple. So I guess I was saying, that impresses me. And Steve Jobs is a part of that. Beyond that, the debate is over my head.

Kar98

05-24-2005, 05:59 PM

Besides, if Apple wanted to take a swipe at the PDA market, all they would need to do is make their PDA white, bundle it with some iconic earphones, and in this day and age, it'll probably sell like hot cakes!

http://www.highfiber.org/img/gallery/1_1105498719.jpg

gorkon280

05-24-2005, 06:26 PM

"When Steve Jobs was installed as Apple's interim CEO, among the products he axed was the Newton, the world's first practical PDA. It was released prematurely but had a promising future... In 2001, Jobs explained: "You can't imagine how many people think we're crazy for not doing a Palm. I won't lie; we thought about it a lot. But I started asking myself, how useful are they, really? How many people at a given meeting show up with one? I don't think early cultures had organisers, but I do know they had music. It's in our DNA.""

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/2003/wey-20050524-Jobs.jpg

If you've ever wondered why Apple chose to walk the iPod path instead of the PDA path, then this Sydney Morning Herald article (http://www.smh.com.au/news/Next/The-god-of-iPod/2005/05/23/1116700623748.html) is certainly worth a read. Jobs says PDAs aren't all that useful, but I believe anyone could put his claim to the test by looking at the raging success of Windows Mobile devices. Besides, if Apple wanted to take a swipe at the PDA market, all they would need to do is make their PDA white, bundle it with some iconic earphones, and in this day and age, it'll probably sell like hot cakes! But hey, if you Apple fans don't get your wish anytime soon, then consider the iPoc (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=38917) the next best thing. :lol:

Funny this article was posted right after I won a auction on ebay for a eMate 300. I may try and get it working and syncing with my Powerbook and maybe even working on my wifi network. Why did I buy it when I own a Pocket PC that's many times better?? I wanted to see if it was true that they were as good as they said they were. I am hunting now for a reasonably priced MessagePad 2100. I think 150 is too much to pay for one. Looking to spend around 50 bucks.

LarDude

05-24-2005, 06:29 PM

...No, of course not, because Music appeals to everyone (which is the root of his quote) and keeping appointments does not.

I agree, your point is Bang-On. Portable music players already had mass-market appeal with the Walkman and then the Discman, the iPod (or some type of MP3 or digital player) would just be the next step in the evolution. The challenge would be just to "convert" the well-established market to the "next" product, as opposed to "joining the fight" to establish the PDA market which *still* has not achieved the level of penetration we would all like. When you think about it, despite the "cool factor" of the iPod, it actually was a "safer", more conservative move (than jumping into the PDA market). The real shocker is that they stole the market from right under Sony's nose.

Gerard

05-24-2005, 07:18 PM

Surprising, really? I was beginning to wonder before the iPod came into the picture just what was propping Sony up. Weak design ideas, inconsistent quality (buttons on several Sony products had failed within 2 years of purchase, and forget about early Discman laser quality), and bland marketing/company awareness generally made it seem like a giant waiting for a fall. Along came a stream of semi-lame MP3 players with various weaknesses (lack of expansion or even decent base memory, awful GUI if any, proprietary formats, awkward music transfer, too much bulk...) which offered no threat to the giant. Then up shows something with a bit of style and some decent features, and SURPRISE, the market snaps it up. In the short term, maybe 5 years, a great success. I see it more as a wakeup call to the industry, a freshening of attitudes, than as something more deeply significant in terms of Apple's genius. Once generally shaken up, the industry will soon enough find its feet and push the iPod into a corner in terms of pricing and features/design/quality. Unless they're completely asleep!

But no, Sony now has a pretty slick little MP3 player with OLED display, not earth-shattering in itself, but cool enough to grab some attention and make users aware of other possibilities. If the manufacturers are savvy at all they'll move towards a more organic, less polystyrene approach, incorporating advantages of the iPod and Sony's stuff and rendering products which cater to a burgeoning popular sense of sci-fi becoming current. We're getting into the nano-age, and devices should at least appear to demonstrate an awareness of this, or better yet incorporate it.

Wearable music players, not just strap-on clunkers, music we can wear during rigorous fitness and work routines. Thin, flexible (literally or at least in terms of modularity) computers we can take anywhere without appearing to be encumbered by plastic boxes. This is the near future for successful high-end electronics. A PDA as demonstrated today is a mid-step, a marker on the way to better integration of computing with the senses. And if Apple doesn't want to be a part of this evolution, they'll be left behind.

I apologise for not reading TFA. Should have done that to see the quote was 4 years old, which makes a lot more sense. Maybe Steve's had some fresh ideas since, or maybe not. The guy's not exactly known for sharing his vision before a product release. Still, it'd be somewhat of a shocker to see an Apple-branded PDA, as they just don't seem to be aiming in that direction at all. It really does smack too much of Palm's narrow approach, and we all see by now where that's taken Palm.

sponge

05-24-2005, 07:30 PM

I swear, it's like these boards are becoming Slashdot more and more every day.

- The being surrounded by everyone/ivory tower argument is amusing. Do you have any idea if it happens? Of course not. Just words spouting with no real meaning.

- Early humans don't need electricity, taking a comparison made to show the primal instinct of music, and furthering it much more than Jobs did. Proves nothing.

- As someone else mentioned, it was back in 2001 when PDAs COULDN'T do all the video and wireless web surfing, that is unless you were forking out more than a laptop.

- And as Sven most nicely put it, look at most of the posts on this very front page. Most of them are neat little things, rather than genuinely useful. Same with the forum.

If it came down to making an iPod, or a new Newton, anyone with the tiniest bit of sense would pick iPod. Apple is in the market to make money. Music has more appeal than PDAs, hence his quote. Plus, and purely in my opinion, I'm not sure what Apple can bring that's truly innovative.

Jerry Raia

05-24-2005, 07:35 PM

The iPOD is one thing. This is coming from a guy whose PC company has what? 1% of the market? I hardly hold my breath when he speaks about anything.

Shaun Stuart

05-24-2005, 07:38 PM

The decision may have been right in 2001 / 02 - who can question the success of the Ipod - but whether it proves to be the right decision in the long run is another question.

There is little doubt in my mind that the MP3/Music player will be replaced by the mobile phone - or smartphone.

What Microsoft and Symbian (plus Palm to a certain degree) have done is taken what they have learnt from their development of PDAs into the phone world - I am not sure they would have been as successful had they not focused on PDAs first.

I think the next 18 months will be really interesting in the development of music players / PDAs and Smartphones - While the Ipod certainly has the edge in brand name Microsoft and Symbian are already dominant in the handsets.

biglouis

05-24-2005, 07:41 PM

The Newton at the time, and I speak as someone who was selling all the available PDAs at that time, was by far and away the best of breed.

After it was cancelled I managed to sell a number (especially to Japan) from people who were desperate to get the device before it finally disappeared.

I think Jobs missed an important marketing opportunity. Just think where the product might have evolved to by now.

Newton might have become an important motivator for people to change into the Apple PC camp rather than find a PDA which fitted into their existing Wintel environment. And I would have thought any channel or mechanism for creating conversion to the Apple platform would be better than none.

After all, how many people are seriously going to consider getting an Apple PC just because they have an iPOD?

LouisB

sponge

05-24-2005, 08:03 PM

The iPOD is one thing. This is coming from a guy whose PC company has what? 1% of the market? I hardly hold my breath when he speaks about anything.

Domination is not needed in order for someone to know what they're talking about. They are staying profitable. That's more than enough reason for me to want to listen. Besides, that's the PC market. For as much as everyone preaches that PDAs aren't PCs, why should that matter, anyway?

Matt Kitchen

05-24-2005, 08:32 PM

After all, how many people are seriously going to consider getting an Apple PC just because they have an iPOD?

LoL, i did! I bought an iPod first, and with it came iTunes and I saw a new world that I didn't know existed. Bought a powerbook to see what all this OS X hype was about and since haven't looked back. I'm not anti-windows, Just pro-mac.

There is little doubt in my mind that the MP3/Music player will be replaced by the mobile phone - or smartphone.

I think Apple is already very aware of this which is why they are launching their iTunes playing Mobile Phone in cooperation with Motorola hopefully by the end of the summer, but with Apple you wont know until it hits.

PR.

05-24-2005, 08:33 PM

The Newton still sells for a high price 2nd hand, there's still a demand even after all these years.

When I was looking at buying a music jukebox I looked at the iPod but after reading several reviews I found out I would be paying more than average for an average music player. No thanks

Jason Lee

05-24-2005, 09:19 PM

I think Steve's turtle necks are too tight... :P

twalk

05-24-2005, 09:21 PM

After reading all the previous posts, I've come to one conclusion. That most of the people posting on this site don't really realize that they are not the same as most other people.

People here have a large tendency to use many/most of the PDA features available. That's a niche of a niche of the PDA market.

There's really only 3 "markets" that PDAs play in with the general public.

PIM: Mostly for alarms and keeping numbers/addresses. Usually has a few *free* games (nearly never pay for them), that are almost always card/board/puzzle. Tend to rarely upgrade (usually only when it breaks). This market has been hit hard by cell phones (see the drop in P1 marketshare, and the PDA average price rising above $400).

Vertical markets (business): Usually just used for one task, and nothing else. At many places, adding un-authorized software isn't allowed. These people are not price sensitive, and could save money long term with XP handhelds because they would reduce the (much higher) custom software development cost.

Entertainment: Has payed for games, plays music and movies, and pretty much views the PDA as a game machine. They'll do some PIM, but often find that they keep more stuff on paper scraps than the PDA. Many/most of these people have moved to PPCs, because of the better games and multimedia support. The Sony PSP has a lot of interest from these people.

I usually talk to several hundred normal PDA users a year. Anything other than the above is pretty much a niche of a niche from what I can tell. For the most part, other developers have indicated the same to me. Two of these areas are under serious pressure, and the 3rd will be when handheld XP devices become common.

Add in the fact that the PDA market is very highly competitive and slow growth, why would Apple be stupid enough to re-enter the market? They'd be much better off in the cell phone market making a trivial to use iCell or whatever.

Todd

ricksfiona

05-24-2005, 09:30 PM

There have been some interesting comments here and I just had to make a couple myself:

1) Apple changed the 'look' of technology. The iMac was the start of a design revolution. No longer do computers look like boring plastic/metal boxes. You got some really nice looking rigs these days. Their iPod is a pretty simple device, but it looks very cool and is quite simple to use.

2) Apple got people 'interested' in technology. People look forward to what Apple next has up their sleeve. This alone creates design innovation with more people giving their input to what they like.

3) Apple is a clever marketing company. By us posting here, it's free advertising. Apple makes really great looking products, but their performance is quite average, so they'll never make high-volume anything. The iPod got a headstart on the MP3 market and has big market share, but it won't last very long. There are MP3 players out there that are as good if not better than the iPod... Though I still want one! Hey, it's a cool looking device with a ton of accessories!

I totally appreciate Apple for what it's done and hope it stays in business as long as it keeps coming out with cool and innovative designs. Apple will never be a Microsoft competitor and that's okay. It's a profitable company and it certainly serves a portion of the community.

I won't buy a MAC for the forseeable future simply cause it doesn't have the array of business applications available. But I certainly would buy one of their appliance products and the P.C. world can learn from Apple's design leadership.

Gerard

05-24-2005, 09:48 PM

... and email/web access is of no interest except to this "niche of a niche"? How so? The number one use of home and business PCs of any size is internet/email. Everything else places distant second and worse. Most users of PCs do not even realise that they can use browsers other than the one which comes with their PC, and the same applies to email clients.

Since every Pocket PC ever made has email and a browser, and there are now third-party alternatives for both of these native MS apps, it would seem obvious that anyone who wants their favourite computing functions to be more portable, the PPC and some of the Palms and other devices are the best, most convenient platform. Most users will never need word processing beyond what Pocket Word offers. And with WM5, and the upcoming release of the Minimo browser, the small percentage of websites which won't work on a PPC gets even smaller.

Really, I find it fascinating (in a silly sort of way) that people will buy a cellphone with a 2" screen and a browser and email client, no touchscreen, and pay over $500 in many cases, and these same people do not see the practicality of a PPC which does so much more, and better. With Wi-Fi becoming close to ubiquitous in any larger city the convenience of grabbing information or entertaining stuff while out and about is rather addictive. At least half the coffee shops have some sort of wireless access, often free. It's available walking down a lot of streets, whether intentionally or not on the part of the providers. Connectivity is key to PPC use these days, and to my way of thinking always has been. I bought a dialup CF modem within 2 months of getting my first PPC in summer of 2000. While I hardly expect most consumers to be that enthusiastic about these devices, wireless being built-into so many devices now makes that irrelevant, hardly a geek-factor at all.

Phillip Dyson

05-24-2005, 10:01 PM

I find it interesting that there is so much heated debate over his statement. Steve Jobs was merely being charismatic and provocotive.

When he introduced the iPod he complete dogged the flash players. Now we have the Shuffle.

When/if they decide to enter the PIM/PDA market he'll make some provocative/charismatic presentation about how Apple's PDA doesn't just organize but actually makes your life sexy.

"This is the way life should really be handled!" -Steve Jobs; Apple Computers; circa 2007

Gerard

05-24-2005, 10:36 PM

One obvious marketing blunder seems to be the lack of a connection between Ikea and Apple. Could there be a more obvious off-white lifestyle connection? How HP took that deal for all the display PCs is beyond me. The appearance of ubiquity often leads to actualization, does it not? These days everything is branding, visibility, profile, fluff with the suggestion of substance, just like most of the music with which people are filling those iPods. Of course, last time I was inside an Ikea store was over a year ago, and reluctantly, so perhaps Apple has by now taken over.

And yes indeed, when Steve et al eventually wake up to the utility of instant-on go-anywhere communications and computing/data access, it will instantly become a problem of how to spin their past 'dissing' of the PDA - or how to pretend it never happened, that no one ever said anything like that, 'who could possibly be so stupid when the iPoDA is the one device everyone needs!'

twalk

05-24-2005, 11:27 PM

... and email/web access is of no interest except to this "niche of a niche"? How so? The number one use of home and business PCs of any size is internet/email. Everything else places distant second and worse.

Notice what you said there. PCs. Not PDAs.

To normal everyday people in which that's important in a portable device, they're either using a light notebook, RIM (who's users often don't know is also a PDA), or often SMS with a cell phone. Smartphones are taking some of that market, but then they aren't traditional PDAs either. (The original topic is basically about traditional PDAs.)

I personally think (but don't know) that most people would probably just call them up with their cell phone, and leave a voice mail.

Since every Pocket PC ever made has email and a browser, and there are now third-party alternatives for both of these native MS apps, it would seem obvious that anyone who wants their favourite computing functions to be more portable, the PPC and some of the Palms and other devices are the best, most convenient platform. Most users will never need word processing beyond what Pocket Word offers. And with WM5, and the upcoming release of the Minimo browser, the small percentage of websites which won't work on a PPC gets even smaller.

Here you're taking what you believe is the best solution (and it may be), and saying that's what everyone should do.

Maybe you are right. Maybe not.

I'm just saying this is what I've seen/been told about from lots of normal users.

Personally, I feel my x50v is the first PDA that I've owned that does a passable job at browsing. I'll chuck it in a second for my 2.2lbs mini-notebook.

Really, I find it fascinating (in a silly sort of way) that people will buy a cellphone with a 2" screen and a browser and email client, no touchscreen, and pay over $500 in many cases, and these same people do not see the practicality of a PPC which does so much more, and better.

Many, many, many hi-tech companies have built better solutions. Then they see their potential customers pay more for an inferior product. Then they start complaining about their "defective customers".

Until you can start seeing with the customer's viewpoint, you'll never know why. (And that seems to be incredibly hard for hi-tech people to do, probably because most deal with logical issues much of the time.)

Todd

LarDude

05-24-2005, 11:38 PM

Really, I find it fascinating (in a silly sort of way) that people will buy a cellphone with a 2" screen and a browser and email client, no touchscreen, and pay over $500 in many cases, and these same people do not see the practicality of a PPC which does so much more, and better.
Try walking around with an e805 (or HP4700) in your pocket and not look like a pervert. By the time you've added the nice protective Vaja case, it really looks like you are getting ready for mating season. Either that, or look like Batman's apprentice with a big bulky utility belt. I am biting the bullet and will be retiring my VGA device for one of the HTC or BenQ (or maybe even Samsung) WM5 phone-edition devices -- except that I don't even know when they'll finally be available here.

With Wi-Fi becoming close to ubiquitous in any larger city the convenience of grabbing information or entertaining stuff while out and about is rather addictive. At least half the coffee shops have some sort of wireless access, often free.
Really? Where? I'd really like to know because I must be venturing around the wrong/chintzy parts of town. I travel to the US a lot, and many (maybe even most) of the Starbucks there have T-Mobile hotspots available, but it sure ain't free. Even that is OK, but here in Vancouver, all I have gotten are blank looks from the barristas, as I whine about the lack of Wi-Fi at the Canadian Starbucks. The Vancouver airport used to have free Wi-Fi, for all of about 6 months, now it's pay-pay-pay -- and it isn't T-Mobile, which means having to subscribe to yet another service (Verizon?).

Connectivity is key to PPC use these days, and to my way of thinking always has been. I bought a dialup CF modem within 2 months of getting my first PPC in summer of 2000. While I hardly expect most consumers to be that enthusiastic about these devices, wireless being built-into so many devices now makes that irrelevant, hardly a geek-factor at all.
I agree and have indeed embraced wireless connectivity (Wi-Fi connection on all desktops, laptops, PDAs; Wi-Fi printserver; wireless doorbells, thermometers with wireless connections to external sensors, wireless IR-to-2.4 GHz TV/DVD/VCR remote controls, 2.4GHz wireless TV signal; Wi-Fi mini travel-router) and have succeeded in printing wirelessly with my PPC. Unfortunately, outside of the home or office, I am finding that Wi-Fi is still *not* ubiquitous enough -- it's still too often *not* available at hotels, which I agree is quite unacceptable. Call me a control freak, but I want to be able to access my email or the web, whenever and wherever I want/need it. Outside of the home/office environment (where the limited range of 802.11x can be advantageous), I'm more and more inclined to think that maybe something like GPRS (slow and painful as it is, but hopefully to be replaced by EDGE) might be preferable and more versatile than 802.11x.

Gerard

05-25-2005, 12:22 AM

Well colour me puzzled, again. I don't understand how so many Vancouverites can't seem to find APs. And what, Starbucks = Vancouver coffee? Since when? They burn the dang beans, every time!!! JJ Bean, now there's coffee. Unfortunately neither the place on Commercial nor the new one on Main have their own Wi-Fi, though the Main Street one gets into a stray signal if you sit by the windows on the North side or out on the patio.

Our Town on Kingsway & Broadway has free access, a strong signal, and all you need is an occassionally refreshed HEX key available at the till. There's FatPort a block West. Trees Organic downtown on Granville has open and free, but no ports for email, only browsing. Lousy coffee but the juices and snacks can be alright. Any London Drugs, or most. Future Shops. Libby's Cafe across from the Trout Lake community centre is a fine little place, and though the wireless seems a little sluggish at times it's not at all bad. Other places abound with leaks from outside. Havana on Commercial either has their own or it's right next door and strong. My list would be a lot longer if this weren't already hijacking the thread topic so badly...

There are open APs in most residential neighbourhoods, along 16th being a fine example with one or more almost every block between Fraser and Cambie. Then there's my house, my brother's house, and all sorts of other decent folks who deliberately leave theirs open for all to use...

To that other stuff about my mentioning people's uses of PCs, not PPCs... oh come on. Was my language or intent that unclear? I was simply stating that people use computers mainly for web access and email, and so the transition to smaller devices should be a gimme given the advances in connectivity for the average city dweller. Especially so in the US, where cheap or free data plans are widely available for cellphone users. Lugging a notebook around, even a 2 pound sub-notebook, that's just a pain when all one wants is to quickly google some facts or grab movie showtimes or check the address of a restaurant or a million other little things one can do with a connected PPC.

And that old hat about this being about "traditional PDAs' - oh come on, again. Who asserted that? Did Steve Jobs say "the traditional PDA [whatever that means] was not used by cavemen, and therefore serves no useful function"? NO. A PDA is what the manufacturers make it, and what the market will use. A connected PDA is just that, and a great connected PDA is really a computer in a small shell. Why does this stuff about strict definitions always come up in these sorts of discussions, when the very meaning of something like PDA is being changed month to month, year to year, depending on market conditions and technological advancment? The lines are blurring. But a cellphone with a tiny non-sensitive screen is still a silly way to browse the web, and thumb-pecking a numeric pad is a path to insanity for anything like serious email. So I regard a PDA as a minimum, and if effectively implemented also the maximum needed by the average user. Most computer users I know do nothing which cannot be done with a PPC and a folding keyboard. Getting everyone connected is going to take more than getting glorified cellphones into their hot little hands, and a full-blown PC is simply not an affordable option for many. A few hundred bucks (and getting cheaper) for a PPC just makes sense.

LarDude

05-25-2005, 01:07 AM

Well colour me puzzled, again. I don't understand how so many Vancouverites can't seem to find APs. And what, Starbucks = Vancouver coffee? Since when? They burn the dang beans, every time!!! JJ Bean, now there's coffee.
My apologies before anyone flames me for further hijacking this thread, but I really do need to clarify one very very important point: *No*, I definitely did not, *repeat, did not*, mean to imply that Starbucks = Vancouver coffee. Yes, yes, yes, they burn the dang beans...yes, every time! JJ Bean, AOK by me (aside: have you tried Subeez's coffee?).

I brought up Starbucks only because you mentioned that "At least half the coffee shops have some sort of wireless access...", which I find hard to believe because Starbucks might well account for half the coffee shops, which would mean that every non-Starbucks coffee shop has wireless. (OK, maybe I exaggerate, but can you blame me when you see intersections with 2 Starbucks, located kitty-corner, with the express intent of killing off all competition?).

How's that for hijacking the thread? :oops:

Gerard

05-25-2005, 02:00 AM

Wrestling mightily to torque this back on-topic... an iPod can't use coffee shop wireless to stream web radio, like my PDA can and does whenever I feel like such listening (there are some killer jazz and classical stations, and techno in abundance for my wife). So that aspect of the primitive urge towards music, delivered by a highly technological device, is apparently a low priority in the Steve Jobs universe. Oh, except he advocates - and gets richer thanks to - web-delivered music files. Do I smell a conflict here? Any decent connected PDA, right down to the $250 models (cheaper than half the iPod line) can deliver streaming audio, and video. What could be more primally satisfying than watching a story unfold on a screen, a la a streaming movie feed or television re-broadcast? Storytelling is our oldest art form, and digital video the latest medium for it. But no, the market doesn't need that, because Apple doesn't deliver it... oh, but wait, they do... but only for desktops and notebooks. Which is silly, really, as most notebook use happens at home or office anyway, only a small proportion actually outdoors or in a vehicle, and therefore most Mac users will have ready access to a television and DVDs anyway. Nope, sorry Steve, there is no rational argument to be made against PDA use in terms of media availability.

Unless one counts waste reduction, as in manufacturing less to pollute less and thereby reduce one's ecological impact... oops, here again the PDA kicks some serious butt on even the smallest notebook PC or Mac. With 1/8th the mass, there's drastically less waste involved both at the manufacturing end and at the disposal end. A bit of clever planning for recycling and even that could be virtually eliminated. And don't get started on Li-Ion battery pollution through improper disposal! Apple just recalled a couple of hundred thousand batteries, practically new, every one of them a dozen times bigger than the average PDA battery and yet with no greater usable lifespan and certainly no greater charge time capacity. On environmental concerns the PDA wins again.

If they wanted to, Apple could sell a wicked PDA with a 20GB hard drive. Even if it were too big for any normal pocket, inspiring strange looks wherever, the sheer white factor and slick plasticness of it all would break that down and acceptance would soon come. Don't call it a PDA. Call it a sketchpad, a media book, a pippin fer cryin' out loud, but don't deny the utility of something so plainly utilitarian. Given a decent size of screen and not too many screwups in software and I might even consider going over to Mac myself. It'd take at least a 6" screen though, and long before any WM device had the same. I've tried a few Macs, and just don't like the whole interface. Seems too much like using a Palm to me.

(as for coffee shop wireless here in town... okay, maybe half was slightly exaggerating. And yes, in the West End there are two Starbucks kitty-corner... but I rarely go to that part of town. Downtown is fairly crowded with open APs nonetheless. Robson Street must have at least 10, plus some paid ones. And yes, I've had Subeez, and it's nice.)

Darius Wey

05-25-2005, 06:16 AM

The Newton still sells for a high price 2nd hand, there's still a demand even after all these years.

I think you could attribute the high price to low supply rather than something related to demand (just thinking about those pesky S&D curves). :lol:

dMores

05-25-2005, 10:44 AM

it's easy for steve and his CEO friends to think PDAs are useless, since they don't need to keep track of time. it's all done by secretaries and personal assistants.

but there are some of us who are not heads of international multi-gazillion-dollar companies who still rely on or OWN capabilities to organize.

yes, cavemen also had music. but they didn't have tiny speakers to plug into their ears ... they made music themselves. so actually, we should all get bongo drums and digeridoos instead of iPods.

immagine the noise in subways, busses and trains.
oh wait ... those are useless too since the cavemen ...

give me a break.

:roll:

just say it, steve!
"we have no idea how to shake up the PDA market, so we won't even try".