Log in

View Full Version : Gates Says iPod Success Not Sustainable, Phones Take Over Music Role


Ed Hansberry
05-12-2005, 08:00 PM
<a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050512/tc_nm/tech_microsoft_gates_dc_2&amp;printer=1">http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050512/tc_nm/tech_microsoft_gates_dc_2&amp;printer=1</a><br /><br /><i>"Microsoft founder Bill Gates sees mobile phones overtaking MP3s as the top choice of portable music player, and views the raging popularity of Apple's iPod player as unsustainable, he told a German newspaper."As good as Apple may be, I don't believe the success of the iPod is sustainable in the long run," he said in an interview published in Thursday's Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung."You can make parallels with computers: Apple was very strong in this field before, with its Macintosh and its graphics user interface -- like the iPod today -- and then lost its position," Gates said."</i><br /><br />The article goes on to say MS is working on getting its Windows Mobile operating system in the hands of 40 device makers. I agree with his assessment. MP3 players as a group are going to be replaced by functionality in mobile phones. The early adopters are going to want to keep the 20GB and larger music players at their disposal for a while, but when you can currently stick a 1GB SD card in a phone and get 40 hours of music out of that for around $75, who is going to bother with an external device? I am sure there are phone makers right now putting 1GB embedded memory in phones so you don't have to bother buying a card. Couple that with high speed wireless connections where you will be able to download directly into the phone and you have an incredible combination.<br /><br />Of course, the flip side is Apple may also be working with phone makers to merge the iPod and wireless technologies. If they aren't working on something to protect the future of the iPod brand, it will be relegated to a small corner of the portable music market, just like the Mac was relegated to a dark and dusty corner of the computing market.

WindWalker
05-12-2005, 08:16 PM
Thought you might have seen this (http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/cellphones/motorola/why-the-ipod-phone-doesnt-matter-100675.php) on Gizmodo last month. Apple is trying, but hasn't met with as much success to date.

johnm
05-12-2005, 08:19 PM
I would be interested in testing this theory about just using a 1mb flash card with your 'existing' device and skipping the dedicated mp3 player. How many thoughts readers are doing this today with their 5600 smart phone? How many with their pocketPCs?

For me it was just obvious, I added a 4G microdrive to my Ipaq and use it as my MP3 device. Yet I know people who have both a pocketPC and an Ipod.

gt24
05-12-2005, 08:41 PM
If iPod pushes, hard, the fact that their devices will Wifi Sync when Microsoft REMOVED Wifi Syncing...

Seems like Microsoft is driving the wrong way down a highway... this could be an issue for them if they don't reverse their decision.

surur
05-12-2005, 08:47 PM
This will only happen is people pay attention to the interface and integration. I have an mp3 player on my mobile phone, but the UI is atrocious, and I did not feel motivated at all to buy a larger MS to store music on.

The SDA music is a move in the right direction however. I'm a great believer in buttons and physical interfaces to reduce the learning curve. If MS can add smart synching to device they stand a chance of supplanting the Ipod. If the Ipod Shuffle can be a success based on its synching software, any mobile phone can be too.

http://www.gizmodo.com/archives/images/sda_music.jpg

http://www.gizmodo.com/archives/tmobiles-sda-music-smartphone-021345.php

Surur

ctitanic
05-12-2005, 08:55 PM
Well, I believe that Gate is wrong, iPod will have a long live because no everybody wants or likes the all-in-one concept. In another hand I have not seen yet any software-hardware combination as good as the iPod-iTune combination. Let's put it in this way, you can be good in one thing but if you try to become good in everything you will end being just a "middling". ;)

jickbahtech
05-12-2005, 09:13 PM
I kind of agree with ctitanic.
For integrated devices there does seem to be quite a bit of "jack of all trades" going on.
I think the market for mobiles is just a little shook up right now. We'll see how it all settles, but I seriously doubt that stand alone Music/Entertainment devices are ever going to go away. I for one wouldn't want to take my super-music-internet-smartphone with me to work out, and sweat all over it. Thats what the ipod shuffle is for :wink:.

rmasinag
05-12-2005, 09:18 PM
As for my struggle between number of devices and use, I think I have decide on my future configuration: A pocketpc(or any future equivalent) phone and a iPod shuffle(which I already have). I used to use my IPAQ 2210 as my music player too but the abuse that it recieved as an audio device made it hard for me to continue using it as a music player.

So now my IPAQ battery life lasts and I expose it to less hazards after my iPod shuffle took over. I'm a music freak( too poor to be an audiophile :D ) so I ABSOLUTELY have to have music on hand 80% of the time.

But that's just me. All I'm missing is phone functionality and I am set for the future.. :mrgreen:

Jonathan1
05-12-2005, 09:20 PM
Yah well show me a phone that can hold all 43GBs of music (And growing) that I have, has an interface as easy as the iPod, gets about 15 hours of battery life, a Windows player as slick and easy as iTunes, an accessory range as large as the iPod, and integrates into a growing number of cars and you have yourself a deal. Until then Gates is full of piss and wind...ows. :roll:

ucfgrad93
05-12-2005, 09:23 PM
Wow, Gates is really off the mark with this prediction. To me the biggest draw back will be the battery life. How many people are going to risk losing use of their cellphone cause they listened to too many mp3s and the battery went dead.

mskovrinskie
05-12-2005, 09:28 PM
I have no problems at all using my Audiovox SMT 5600 as both a phone and an MP3 player, listening to podcsts using Skookum (formerly ipodderSP), and even using it for GPS navigation. Battery life isn't close to being a problem.

And now with a 1GB miniSD card in it, I can do all this, plus watch TV shows that I've synched from my Media Center. There's nothing better than watching Family Guy on the road!!

ctitanic
05-12-2005, 09:33 PM
Wow, Gates is really off the mark with this prediction. To me the biggest draw back will be the battery life. How many people are going to risk losing use of their cellphone cause they listened to too many mp3s and the battery went dead.

Exactly, or how many of them will paused the music because their wifes need the phone ;) or how many wifes will hang the phone because their husbands want to listen some music ;)

I really can't picture my daughter having phone and mp3 player all in one. She needs both working at the same time 8 hours per day :D

seaflipper
05-12-2005, 09:35 PM
I used my SMT5600 for this very thing for a while. It was "ok" as such. For me (working out) once you get the thing playing it doesn't matter what the interface is like. Yeah, iPod interface is way way better than the Smartphone interface, even with Windows Media 10. But for working out that hardly matters. Of course having the MiniSD under the battery was a paid as you couldn't use an SD or MiniSD card like a jukebox. I see big advantages to the new Samsung music phone with the builtin 3GB hard drive, that will be very appealing when it comes out.

The main problem I had with using the SMT5600, however, was that the volume was too low, I had to crank it to hear it, even with decent headphones and a 2.5mm to 3.5 mm adapter. Also, every time my phone automatically checked my email (every 15 minutes) I would get a very annoying buzzing sound that would make the music skip. If they can't fix an issue like that, then they better come up with a feature like they have on the Treo and PocketPC Phones where you can easily turn off the phone part of the device so that you can use the music device as it should be.

I see a couple big problems with the iPod phone, however: Apple and their alliance with Motorola. The current OS they are going to use for the phone is based upon the standard Moto OS, which is crappy. Anyone who is an iPod user is going to be disappointed in the iPod phone, it isn't going to be as easy to use as an ipod and it won't be the same as an iPod. Additionally, Steve Jobs is probably a deal breaker here for the carriers - he either wants to much of the cut on the hardware deal and/or Apple simply won't cut any of the carriers in on iTunes either via mobile wireless download or with a Cingular branded or Sprint branded iTunes store so that the carriers make money off that part of the business. As it stands, Windows Mobile will win this war out since there is nothing stopping Cingular from creating their own branded "PlayForSure" napster music store for wireless or computer download. They make money on all ends, which of course is exactly what they are in this for. I think AT&amp;T Wireless was actually headed in that direction before the merger, they may still bring that out on Cingular I suspect...

I think technologically speaking there is no reason why they can't blend these 2 devices into one. Consumers will buy them en-masse if they work as advertised and they are as easy to use as iPods are now. Some people will always want one device dedicated for each thing, but as the integration of email and increased use of SMS in the United States increases, I think most people would opt for one device rather than 2. I think when Bill Gates says the iPod will lose in the long run, that's the key - "the long run". It's not going to be on Win Mobile 5.0 that Windows Smartphones overtake the iPod (if they ever do) but on the future generations of WinMobile. Perhaps 6.0 will truly be a GUI revolution. Hopefull 5.0 will at least be the technological revolution that paves the way for the GUI revolution.

Pixelnose
05-12-2005, 09:37 PM
Yeah, ipods and DAPs in general just have no future...

unless you care about a little something I like to call SOUND QUALITY! Come on! An ipod with a line out an an amp not only holds more music but is going to blow away anything microsoft has yet thrown at it. And hello, pda's and smartphones don't have line outs...

A big 0X from the audiophiles out there.

seaflipper
05-12-2005, 09:45 PM
Yeah, ipods and DAPs in general just have no future...

unless you care about a little something I like to call SOUND QUALITY! Come on! An ipod with a line out an an amp not only holds more music but is going to blow away anything microsoft has yet thrown at it. And hello, pda's and smartphones don't have line outs...

A big 0X from the audiophiles out there.

Agreed, totally. No comparison to the iPod and what it can compared to the Windows devices. At least for now, that is certainly a technical obstacle that in time would not be hard to overcome.

On the other hand, who cares how crappy it is when your only listening to Britney Spears? :lol:

gt24
05-12-2005, 09:49 PM
Wow, Gates is really off the mark with this prediction. To me the biggest draw back will be the battery life. How many people are going to risk losing use of their cellphone cause they listened to too many mp3s and the battery went dead.

Perhaps the cell phone can work in low power mode? :)

Yeah, the idea of attaching a critical communication medium (well, to some it is) to an MP3 player is just asking for trouble in the battery life department.

Mobile 2005 has persistant storage, so you won't loose anything when the power dies. At least that problem has been snipped. Imagine if you lost EVERYTHING every time you got too low on power... :)

This introduces an interesting issue though... cell phone can play back music... the only place where you can buy music for your "provider's" phone is from the "provider", PERIOD. Their rates would be more than ITunes since you bought the convience. I can just see that happening... easily.

(in case anybody has noticed, I edit my posts a TON)

Hrun
05-12-2005, 10:00 PM
I have been on the verge of buying an mp3 player for a while as I don't always want to carry my (very expensive) Ipaq. However I have accidentally found my ideal combination.

I have just got a new phone. I didn't think about it but it has a 80mb mp3 player, enough for some 8 songs. Where this wins is the bluetooth means I can transfer tunes with my Ipaq and its large and expanding memory

The Gates might be heading in the right direction albeit early days

surur
05-12-2005, 10:09 PM
This introduces an interesting issue though... cell phone can play back music... the only place where you can buy music for your "provider's" phone is from the "provider", PERIOD. Their rates would be more than ITunes since you bought the convience. I can just see that happening... easily.

Lets be sure not to sound like the Palm enthusiasts of 5 years ago.

a) no market segment is unassailable, no matter what the lead.
b) any superficial difficulties can be removed e.g. sound quality
c) There is a trend toward convergence, and even the digital camera market, which has killed the film market, is now suffering from this
d) The cell phone is the device you carry with you all the time. Its the obvious choice.
e) we should give people more credit for the ability to manage their battery usage. The battery life objections sounds like the Palm people bragging about their three week battery life, while the win Ce people have to charge very day. For increased functionality people are prepared to put up with inconvenience.
f) MS usually takes a hand-off approach, only making the software tools (the x-box is an exception) whereas apple would want full control including on price point. MS would be a better provider of such a service to the networks than Apple.
g) Ms has already said they will be aiming to customize the OS to better serve the network's goal to make money in novel ways.

Anyways, the list can go on. The short of it is that MS has succeeded against the odds in the PDA field, and can beat Apple in this area also.

It makes sense.

Surur

Perry
05-12-2005, 10:19 PM
I think it is more likely that the iPod becomes a good phone rather than the reverse. It already has a decent PIM built in. Yeah, I use my C500 as a DAP but it sucks. I hate WMP and Betaplayer (I have a mix of M4A and MP3 tunes) does not support key mapping.

Apple iPod phone: Add a Qualcomm chip, mic, headphone and radio and...

They could just as easily have NTC build next gen iPods with phone built into them.

What makes the 5600 so good is the hardware - if it were Palm or S60 I would be just as happy with it. I am an HTC user - not a MS SP user. Sorry, but the other PPC PE and SP devices that are not based on the HTC reference designs are wretched IMO.

Pixelnose
05-12-2005, 10:25 PM
But you're forgetting that to a lot of us, sound quality is not superficial. It's the core of what the device should do. Anything less than the best a portable source can offer, and there's a sizable crowd that will yawn and look elsewhere. There's even communities online for people who are portable audiophiles, like for instance Dapreview, head-fi, headwize, and ipodstudio.

Sound ain't superficial.


This introduces an interesting issue though... cell phone can play back music... the only place where you can buy music for your "provider's" phone is from the "provider", PERIOD. Their rates would be more than ITunes since you bought the convience. I can just see that happening... easily.

Lets be sure not to sound like the Palm enthusiasts of 5 years ago.

a) no market segment is unassailable, no matter what the lead.
b) any superficial difficulties can be removed e.g. sound quality
c) There is a trend toward convergence, and even the digital camera market, which has killed the film market, is now suffering from this
d) The cell phone is the device you carry with you all the time. Its the obvious choice.
e) we should give people more credit for the ability to manage their battery usage. The battery life objections sounds like the Palm people bragging about their three week battery life, while the win Ce people have to charge very day. For increased functionality people are prepared to put up with inconvenience.
f) MS usually takes a hand-off approach, only making the software tools (the x-box is an exception) whereas apple would want full control including on price point. MS would be a better provider of such a service to the networks than Apple.
g) Ms has already said they will be aiming to customize the OS to better serve the network's goal to make money in novel ways.

Anyways, the list can go on. The short of it is that MS has succeeded against the odds in the PDA field, and can beat Apple in this area also.

It makes sense.

Surur

Perry
05-12-2005, 10:33 PM
This introduces an interesting issue though... cell phone can play back music... the only place where you can buy music for your "provider's" phone is from the "provider", PERIOD. Their rates would be more than ITunes since you bought the convience. I can just see that happening... easily.

Lets be sure not to sound like the Palm enthusiasts of 5 years ago.

a) no market segment is unassailable, no matter what the lead.
b) any superficial difficulties can be removed e.g. sound quality
c) There is a trend toward convergence, and even the digital camera market, which has killed the film market, is now suffering from this
d) The cell phone is the device you carry with you all the time. Its the obvious choice.
e) we should give people more credit for the ability to manage their battery usage. The battery life objections sounds like the Palm people bragging about their three week battery life, while the win Ce people have to charge very day. For increased functionality people are prepared to put up with inconvenience.
f) MS usually takes a hand-off approach, only making the software tools (the x-box is an exception) whereas apple would want full control including on price point. MS would be a better provider of such a service to the networks than Apple.
g) Ms has already said they will be aiming to customize the OS to better serve the network's goal to make money in novel ways.

Anyways, the list can go on. The short of it is that MS has succeeded against the odds in the PDA field, and can beat Apple in this area also.

It makes sense.

Surur

Bit of a tangent...

Palm is still putting up a good fight.

In PDAs yeah they lost a lot of share but they switched priorities a couple of years ago and PalmOne are largely fighting the war on behalf of that platform all alone now. PDAs are so 2001 anyway - I laugh when I see people using them. Especially when they filled with wifi cards and big clunky cases.

The Treo 6x0 is crushing SP in terms of market share I think. I don't know why, when the 5600 is way better.

So, I don't really see the MS fight with Palm as quite that decisive yet. When PalmOne does a PPC or SP power device, then you can gloat.

Personally I think the Treo is not that hot, and I have owned a few s60 devices that all had their unique problems. The best by far is the C500/SMT-5600. I get three-four days of use from my C500 with lots of MP3 playing and calls.

I agree that convergence is great, but not with MS' classic lowest common denominator approach to things.

I would rather see Canon, Nokia and Apple combine to make a single super device:

Same size as the c500, 1" HDD, 7 MP camera, EDGE (or some form of 3G data) bluetooth, USB 2.0 interface for PC connection and battery charging.

And the whole thing should be $600 max.

Perry
05-12-2005, 10:35 PM
The device that succeeds will be the best amalgamation of best of breed components. MS is not best of breed at anything except Office Suites.

cmorris
05-12-2005, 10:39 PM
It's pretty funny that this thread is going on at PPCT when there's a new post over on SmartphoneThoughts about the Samsung i300 (phone w/ integrated 3GB drive).

I agree with what everyone have said, particularly regarding sound quality and battery life. But, I am not convinced that it means I need to have two devices. The interesting thing is that this will be the first Smartphone to really claim DAP as one of its core strengths. So, it will definitely be interesting to see how it does on both counts.

zetsurin
05-12-2005, 10:43 PM
I was going to start using my XDA II Mini as my MP3 player, even tried out that pPod software that gave you an iPod ripoff interface... it just sucked (I don't mean the software, the whole package), and it was clumsy. As soon as Apple released the iPod Shuffle, I just bought one and never looked back. After my experiences with the PPC Phone Edition, it's made me think of moving away from convergence more than anything. I's pretty much mediocre at everything it does and there isn't much to WM2005 that really turns it all around as far as I am concerned (working with non-volatile storage is good). My next phone will just be something really small that makes calls and receives them :lol: The PSP I am getting wll also do games better as well. I just don't see how a convergent device can possibly steamroller all these markets that will have deeply established devices that are exceptional at the job and have household names. That latter part is the most important: You won't sound like a geek saying iPod no matter where you are.

There just seems to be something missing in the human engineering department that Apple seems to get right. Of course Bill will be saying that a competitor can't sustain their market, but really one could say that of Windows itself, it's already saturated.

This talk of Windows Mobile success I think is forgetting part of it is attributed by the competitions mistakes rather than anything. MS can simply afford to float their boat until the competition dries up and they are the left one standing, whether or not they are holding the superior technology. However, we are talking about much larger and powerful players they are intending to get into the arena with here.

Not all markets end in a monopoly. Currently only the desktop PC market has.

packetstorm
05-12-2005, 10:56 PM
Yah well show me a phone that can hold all 43GBs of music (And growing) that I have, has an interface as easy as the iPod, gets about 15 hours of battery life, a Windows player as slick and easy as iTunes, an accessory range as large as the iPod, and integrates into a growing number of cars and you have yourself a deal. Until then Gates is full of piss and wind...ows. :roll:

He stated mobile phones. I have an iPOD but the iPOD will NEVER have the market mobile phones have. NEVER. As phones become more sophisicated one would assume they would incorporate larger drives and more features. Look at the upcoming Nokia N90 and N91 for example. The features on those devices are like totally insane.

Of course, Gates wants them to all run Windows Mobile and that may or may not happen. But I think he is on target with this regarding mobile phones. A bit optimistic regarding Windows Mobile though.

seaflipper
05-12-2005, 11:03 PM
It is interesting to note in all of this that to date Apple has sold about 15 million iPods whild 702 million mobile phones were sold in 2004 alone. People churn thorugh mobile phones at an incredible rate (unlike iPods) and the market potential is huge for a convergence device that really works, especially from Apple's point of view!

WyattEarp
05-12-2005, 11:08 PM
I think it is just rediculous. the iPOD is practically perfect in its degin and function. For any true music lover, or casual music listener it really can't be beat. I mean, let's be real why would anyone want to put music on any type or removeable memory when you can have a device that can hold all of you music without sacraficing sound quality. I don't know about the rest of you but trying to full up a 1 GB SD card with music at 32 or even 64-bit rate just sucks IMO. Not to mention no PPC PE or SP is going to give you 12 + straight hours of listening and take calls on top of that on one charge.

MS has big dreams and that is good; but they need to fullfill the first dream. Make the PPC as flawless as the iPOD first before trying to become a jack of all trades. The other problem are the actual manufacturers who will muck it all up when they add their own software to it. I could go on but what's the point, it won't happen anyway.

rpommier
05-12-2005, 11:15 PM
I wrestled with buying an iPod for about a year before I finally broke down and bought one. I used my 2215 as an all around media player along with Conduit's Pocket Music. I thought the combination was excellent until I purchased the iPod, problems for me:

- PocketPC too delicate for the gym
- Sound quality is nowhere near a dedicated player
- Interface is inadequate
- Storage

I had a 1gb SD and 512mb CF, pretty decent, but I was always having to plan my music listening. I have 25gb worth of music and only had ~1.5gb of storage, it just didn't work for me.

Any DAP interface is better than any offering on a handheld. I've used Windows Media, Pocket Player, Pocket Music and GS Player. Compared to the iPod they are all lacking. I originally purchased a Gateway 20gb player, which I promptly returned after playing with my cousins iPod.

iTUnes is also head and shoulders above Windows Media player. I don't consider myself dim, but WMP interface is overly complicated for what it needs to do, iTunes is very good at what it does.

Now, so I don't sound like a zealot, there are some things I dont' like about iTunes/iPod. The AAC format, eventually I'm going to want to move my music to other devices. I don't like being locked into using hardware provided by one vendor. There's dozens of gadgets to pipe MP3 &amp; WMA around the house or to my car stereo or wherever. Very few are available for the iPod.

Granted all of this is personal preference of course, maybe it'll help someone on the bubble. I've tried most of the services and a sampling of players and found iTunes / iPod to be the best right now.

surur
05-12-2005, 11:53 PM
The best device does not always win. Often its the cheapest. Look at Walmart, Asda and Tesco etc

Integration is inevitable. Look at motherboards. When was the last time anyone here bought a LAN card.

Even if its not "right" right now, it will be "good enough" in the near future (2-3 years)

The driving force is lack of pocket space.

Most people are not audiophiles.

Surur

spinedoc
05-13-2005, 12:38 AM
Man it amazes me just how much everyone is missing the boat here, amazing!

The future is not storage, it is streaming music. That is one area that the Pocket PC has had right for a while, and now with WMP10 and services like Orb there is no reason to not have access to your entire collection of music at home. Even better than listening to your tired old music collection, there are tons of internet radio stations offering dynamic, commercial free music in whatever genre you like.

Pair with with faster phone internet services like EV-DO and you can even enter the arena of streaming video and streaming live TV.

So sure you have 60gb in your Ipod, but I have UNLIMITED music on my PPC, including ALL of my home collection.

So whoever wants to compare an Ipod to a Pocket PC, dont make me laugh. WMP10 may not have as nice or easy of an interface as an Ipod, but it is not far behind either. And once MS starts to streamline its software and hardware for easier integration, ie: WM5, that line will begin to blur once again.

Another nail in Apples coffin (same as the nail that almost killed them 20 years ago, which forced MS to bail them out) is Apple's propietary nature. This can be seen, of course, in their not wanting to separate software from hardware, it is a shame they are wasting an opportunity to take over the OS market and will instead be just a niche player as always. In terms of itunes this can be seen in their lack of licensing and inclusion of other hardware players with itunes. They are making money now, thanks to the style over substance attitude of the masses, but once someone captures the style portion (ie: a good looking PPC/smartphone) then Apple will have nowhere to go.

Bottom line is Apple is just a niche player which makes a lot of money in the short term, just like they did back in the 80's. But their lack of vision, their style over substance approach, price gouging of their customers, PR blunders like suing blogs that are only good for their marketing, propietary antiquated system, and failure to capitalize on long term trends or an open market will only serve to put them in the same position as they were in when MS bailed them out.

Jonathon Watkins
05-13-2005, 12:57 AM
I have no problems at all using my Audiovox SMT 5600 as both a phone and an MP3 player, listening to podcsts using Skookum (formerly ipodderSP), and even using it for GPS navigation. Battery life isn't close to being a problem.

And now with a 1GB miniSD card in it, I can do all this, plus watch TV shows that I've synched from my Media Center.

Sounds like a nice setup you have there. Welcome Mskovrinskie. 8)

Jonathon Watkins
05-13-2005, 12:58 AM
The future is not storage, it is streaming music. . . .Pair with with faster phone internet services like EV-DO and you can even enter the arena of streaming video and streaming live TV.

Hmm, when I'm out and about I want to listen to my music collection and that's certainly not going to happen over a phone connection that charges by the Mb. (Have you Seen UK GPRS/3G charges???). I would agree with most of the rest of you post though. :)

spinedoc
05-13-2005, 01:14 AM
In the states you can get unlimited internet service on your phone for a fee which can vary from $10 to $45 a month, well worth it if you can stream music and video. Pair this with 300-500kpbs speeds and the only thing that a mp3 player with a hard drive have going for it is subways and areas of bad cell phone coverage.

I didnt realize you UK guys got hit with mb fees, thats a shame since it stifles progress. Anyone remember modem dial up internet service that was metered?

The future is not storage, it is streaming music. . . .Pair with with faster phone internet services like EV-DO and you can even enter the arena of streaming video and streaming live TV.

Hmm, when I'm out and about I want to listen to my music collection and that's certainly not going to happen over a phone connection that charges by the Mb. (Have you Seen UK GPRS/3G charges???). I would agree with most of the rest of you post though. :)

rpommier
05-13-2005, 01:22 AM
Man it amazes me just how much everyone is missing the boat here, amazing!

The future is not storage, it is streaming music.

No No No, I like to own my music... I think you are missing the point by wanting another subscription service.

Cell / Landline
Cable / Sat / Broadband
Cell
Netflix / Blockbuster
XM / Sirus

No thanks, what do those guys that are going to leave Napster &amp; Rhapsody get when they move to Yahoo's service? Nothing! But they had the pleasure of listening for $14.95 per month. At least with iTunes you own your music (after a fashion). Most of my music I get the good old fashioned way, music CD and I rip it myself.

spinedoc
05-13-2005, 01:41 AM
Yes yes yes!!! At its simplest you can use a service like www.orb.com which allows you to FREELY stream your HOME collection. So the songs you purchase that reside on your PC at home, whether you purchase a physical CD or off an internet music site, are all available with no subscription fees.

Additionally much of the internet radio stations and streaming music are free of charge. Take a site like www.di.fm that streams quite awesome music (at least my taste), and it is free.

Just think about 10 years ago when constant connectivity at home was in question. Now everyone has DSL, cable, or at least an unlimited dial up account. The same is happening today. We are on the verge of being "always connected" with our cell phones, and at high speed at that. That connection will allow us to explore more in depth home streaming, and even sharing of music, as well as buying it. How about I get on a PPC/smartphone and log onto a music service, purchase the music and download it on the fly to my SD card, then when I get home and sync my device it copies the music to my main PC at home so I can listen to it, burn it, etc.

Man it amazes me just how much everyone is missing the boat here, amazing!

The future is not storage, it is streaming music.

No No No, I like to own my music... I think you are missing the point by wanting another subscription service.

Cell / Landline
Cable / Sat / Broadband
Cell
Netflix / Blockbuster
XM / Sirus

No thanks, what do those guys that are going to leave Napster &amp; Rhapsody get when they move to Yahoo's service? Nothing! But they had the pleasure of listening for $14.95 per month. At least with iTunes you own your music (after a fashion). Most of my music I get the good old fashioned way, music CD and I rip it myself.

zetsurin
05-13-2005, 01:46 AM
Man it amazes me just how much everyone is missing the boat here, amazing!

The future is not storage, it is streaming music.

No No No, I like to own my music...

Totally Agree. I want control. Streaming will never be as good as having the data there locally. I would never pay a subscription to listen to music. Even if it was free I would still prefer to take my files with me. Considering that everyone isn't an audiophile, a heck of a lot of people are buying iPods, no? I'm not an audiophile and I own one. More people like music than fiddling with an Operating System on their phone in fact... my girlfriends phone + my iPod Shuffle in my pocket takes up less space than my XDA II Mini does... and as storage capacity increases for phones and PDAs as will it for dedicated units. Just as these convergent units get better, the dedicated units get even more so. Point in case my digital camera vs any integrated camera in any PocketPC. People say that there is a 'good enough' level for most but if that were true people wouldn't be changing mobile phones every 6 months because they were good enough a long time ago :)

I am in Aus and we get screwed by GPRS charges royally so it's rarely used here.

WorksForTurkeys
05-13-2005, 02:20 AM
I seem to recall Gates announcing that Windows XP was the most secure OS they've every produced. Anyone know how many critical security patches we're up to so far?

I also seem to recall Gates announcing that XP was the most stable OS they'd ever produced. Wasn't Service Pack #1 the following week?.

When was Longhorn going to be released? What is ShortHorn?

I'm not sure just how reliable and accurate an authority on the movement and direction of the Consumer Electronics Industry, Gates is anymore.

zetsurin
05-13-2005, 02:38 AM
I'm not sure just how reliable and accurate an authority on the movement and direction of the Consumer Electronics Industry, Gates is anymore.

And let's not forget his 1995 book 'The Road Ahead' which required a revised edition in 1996 (I suppose they should have called it 'The Road Ahead Service Pack 1 Internet Edition'). Some visionary.

Anyway, he's rich, I'm not so I'll just shut up :devilboy:

Ed Hansberry
05-13-2005, 12:52 PM
I seem to recall Gates announcing that Windows XP was the most secure OS they've every produced. Anyone know how many critical security patches we're up to so far?So? how does releasing patches negate the statement that it is the most secure OS they'd released? He didn't say it was a totally secure OS, which doesn't exist by the way.
I also seem to recall Gates announcing that XP was the most stable OS they'd ever produced. Wasn't Service Pack #1 the following week?.No. First, it was over a year later that Sp1 was released and second, how does releasing updated code negate the statement that it is the most stable OS they'd released. He didn't say it was an infinitely stable OS, which doesn't exist by the way.
When was Longhorn going to be released? What is ShortHorn?Oh no. You mean a software maker missed a shipping deadline?!? :shocked!:

Jonathan1
05-13-2005, 02:09 PM
I seem to recall Gates announcing that Windows XP was the most secure OS they've every produced. Anyone know how many critical security patches we're up to so far?So? how does releasing patches negate the statement that it is the most secure OS they'd released? He didn't say it was a totally secure OS, which doesn't exist by the way.

No but at the very least when they built the house they should have at least secured the front door. Even housing has building regulations. The RPC nightmare of a few years ago is a prime example of MS not taking security seriously. How many OS's did that effect? Windows NT 4, Windows 2000, Windows XP, and Windows 2003. Now many generations and how many years has that one flaw been in MS's code. Why is this? Because they focus on features not security. Security doesn't sell and OS. You can't SEE a secure OS. You CAN see a new bell and whistle. Also default security. Simply put there is no in Windows. Do you think the average Joe user knows how to lock down Windows in a way that secure's the OS? Linux, Unix, OS X by default has a pretty locked down OS. Even if a mass mail virus was to be unleashed on these platforms users would have to knowingly allow the virus to "do its thing" by entering an admin password. Worse case you get a handful of users who get duped into entering such a password. So far we’ve NEVER seen a worm based issue on OS X. Until that happens I will consider those other platforms more secure. Until then its all posturing to say Windows is more or equally secure as the other guys.

Sorry Ed. You can somewhat defend MS on every other front but there is no defense when it comes to security. Simply put Windows has none. Hell even SP2 was a cobbled together effort. The firewall is a last ditch attempt to put a moat around a defenseless castle. Bill G himself admitted in the antitrust trials that they actively use security by obscurity to allow things to work in Windows. So this is the only option.
Then we look at the upcoming longhorn. I wonder why MS midway through development last year dropped the core code that was XP based in favor of Server 2003. They never said why but I can guess.

spinedoc
05-13-2005, 02:31 PM
Didnt Apple just release an OS with a "bells and whistle" feature (coincidentally that they stole from Konfabulator) which allows for a major security vulnerablity?

It's easy to throw stones at the biggest glass house, but if another OS was anywhere near the target MS is there would be plenty of security problems for them as well.

Jonathan1
05-13-2005, 03:34 PM
Didnt Apple just release an OS with a "bells and whistle" feature (coincidentally that they stole from Konfabulator) which allows for a major security vulnerablity?

It's easy to throw stones at the biggest glass house, but if another OS was anywhere near the target MS is there would be plenty of security problems for them as well.


Do you even KNOW what the vulnerability is in dashboard or are you simply rehasing a headline you read somewhere... Explain and understand what it is and what it can do to a system then come back with comparisons.

spinedoc
05-13-2005, 04:13 PM
What am I a student in school? As you wish teacher...

Without getting into a lot of details the open safe files in the safari browser and the lack of a way to turn off widgets can allow someone access to widgets, they can redirect users to websites, turn on widgets continuously, or even autoinstall widgets without the users permission. Widgets have many functions. You can manually remove widgets if you are willing to go into the directory, but isnt the Apple OS built for non technical users at large?

Look I did not mean to compare this to MS security issues, it's not a fair comparision. But there is no OS that does not have security issues. I see that there are many who like to make MS and Bill Gates an evil empire whose sole purpose is to rule the world.

And yes I willingly volunteer that I am far from qualified to make technical statements as this is not my profession. But the whole "cult of Mac" just annoys the hell out of me, almost as much as the "cult of everything MS does is evil".

But jeez we should not have hijacked this thread!!!!!

Jonathan1
05-13-2005, 05:13 PM
What am I a student in school? As you wish teacher...

Without getting into a lot of details the open safe files in the safari browser and the lack of a way to turn off widgets can allow someone access to widgets, they can redirect users to websites, turn on widgets continuously, or even autoinstall widgets without the users permission. Widgets have many functions. You can manually remove widgets if you are willing to go into the directory, but isnt the Apple OS built for non technical users at large?


[/img]http://tinyurl.com/dqge3

Using certain resources within your widget may pose a security risk for users. In these circumstances, the widget security model provides a method for Dashboard to be aware that your widget may perform insecure tasks. If your widget is working with resources that pose a security threat to the user, the user must approve before access is granted.

Which translates into you need to provide an administrative login to allow the program to run ramped. This is what differentiates MS from everyone else. Basic security is a hell of a lot tighter. On Windows the same app would simply install and do whatever it pleases. As for the topic. I didn't bring it up but I'm willing to call BS on a post that thinks all things are equal when it comes to security in Windows and everyone else. Can you secure Windows? Yep. I've done it on my home computer. by tightening down default rights and dumping an *** load of money into firewall, AV, spyware blocking. I can be done if you are technically savvy enough to do it. The average user will get a glazed over look on their face when you talk about tweaking the ports on a firewall.

rpommier
05-13-2005, 06:01 PM
The security flaw with dashboard on the Mac is only an issue when used with the mac browser. It's not really a flaw as it is an exploit found by a user, it amounts to you visiting his site and his site basically installs a program or icon into your dashboard. The problem is that items aren't easily removed from the dash without going into the folder and deleting the item.

Anyhoo, security is difficult becuase you are constantly fighting features that MS introduces. All the hooks between the OS and IE and Office applications come at a cost. Windows can be secured, but at the cost of some of the functionality users have come to expect. We fight it at work everyday, I can secure the hec out of a workstation, but at some point you have to allow people to do their job.

I have no love for MS, Mac or Linux, I use them all, believe this though if either had the market share MS had they would be just as vulnerable. There are some pretty sharp people out there with alot of time on there hands :) You think Sony ever thought someone could crack the UMD format on the PSP that quickly?

Also if the Apple had the market share MS had don't think for a minute Jobs wouldn't be as borg-like as Gates. I'm sure Apple would love to control your experience as much as MS does.

allenalb
05-13-2005, 06:48 PM
i'll settle for whatever has a hard drive and plays FLAC files.

Stik
05-13-2005, 07:45 PM
Apple is trying, but hasn't met with as much success to date.

The talk coming out of Motorola is that a release is imminent...

" Ed Gams, said the company hopes this summer to ship its first phone that can download music using Apple Computer Inc.'s iTunes.

"The first of these we're hoping to see in the summer," he said, referring to a phone that many expect to be popular among consumers.

Motorola previously said it will deliver two iTunes-compatible phones this year, with one coming on the market in the first half of the year and another in the second half. "

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/cgi-bin/news.pl?id=16457

Whos Ed Gams?

Ed Gams is senior vice president and director, investor relations, for Motorola, where he has responsibility for the company’s communications with buy- and sell-side analysts and individual investors.

However, anytime verbage comes from investor relations it should be taken w/ a grain of salt. :devilboy:

On the other hand, if this doesn't pan pot, this cat will have both investor and analyst on his back. :twak:

spinedoc
05-13-2005, 08:02 PM
I know that phone has been delayed due to the carriers lack of interest, or rather the carriers interest in selling their own propietary music services instead of cutting Apple in on the profits.

Does that phone have a hard drive? Or will storage be mainly on a storage card? Im quite curious because if it does not have a hard drive then I would assume it would be mostly a streaming music phone with limited storage on a memory card, like what I was stating previously.

Stik
05-13-2005, 08:21 PM
I know that phone has been delayed due to the carriers lack of interest, or rather the carriers interest in selling their own propietary music services instead of cutting Apple in on the profits.

Does that phone have a hard drive? Or will storage be mainly on a storage card?

I don't know if Motorola ever has divulged that information. I think not.

Rumors of 8 hour playtime but who really knows?

I absolutely love this line from Engadget...

" all they’ve got to do is actually unveil the damn thing."

http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000120040905/

Ed Hansberry
05-14-2005, 01:27 AM
I seem to recall Gates announcing that Windows XP was the most secure OS they've every produced. Anyone know how many critical security patches we're up to so far?So? how does releasing patches negate the statement that it is the most secure OS they'd released? He didn't say it was a totally secure OS, which doesn't exist by the way.
Sorry Ed. You can somewhat defend MS on every other front but there is no defense when it comes to security.
Where did I defend it? Both you and WorksForTurkeys set up a straw man and then attacked it.

That was all I was trying to clear up.

Steve Jordan
05-14-2005, 01:07 PM
The only real problem with tying so many functions... phone, PIM, MP3 player, movie player, GPS, WiFi, camera, etc... into one device, is that you put too much of a strain on the battery. Suddenly you've got a great phone that only has 5 minutes' talk time, because you used your battery up in 2 hours doing everything else.

There's something to be said for breaking up duties into multiple devices. Phones should be a communications device, with e-mail, GPS maybe, and PIM, max. Everything else should go into a work/entertainment device: files, documents, backups, MP3s, movies, games, pictures, web, etc. If you have to, set up a way for the two to wirelessly interconnect. Then you're gold.

I don't use an iPod, but I do use an MP3 player and SD storage. It's compact and stable enough to use in situations where I wouldn't want my cell phone or PPC (like jogging). My library is my jazz LPs at home, and I can't get most of that stuff from iTunes or streaming stations. (By the way, how well is listening to a streaming station going to work inside a subway tunnel?) So I burn my own, play them on a good sound quality device, and can transfer my SD card to other devices (like my work PC) to listen to when I want.

And no, my phone doesn't always come with me. I like it like that, baby.

MasterOfMoo
05-16-2005, 01:28 PM
Until battery life in mobile phones reaches a dramatic improvement, I can't buy in to the feasibility of this concept. I can understand the "offhand" interview remark being made to diminish the value of a rival's success considering the source of the comment. But considering the poor battery life of the multiple cell phones I have used over the years (especially since switching to only cell phone and cable modem, no LAN line at home), current devices (cell) don't even come under my umbrella of acceptable playback tools.