English Is Just Plain Ol' Weird!

[Darius Wey]

It's the weekend - time for some off-topic confusion about the English language! The readers (and staff) of Pocket PC Thoughts are quite diverse. There are people in the US, Canada, Europe, Asia, Australia, and the list goes on and on. Yet for the majority of us, there's one common point - we all speak English. Funnily enough, as common as that point is, there's an ironic uncommonness to it. Subdivide our English language into different parts and you'll have some of us speaking American English, some of us speaking British English, some of us speaking Australian English, some of us speaking L337 3N9L15H and the insanity continues.<br /><br />The other day, I had one of the readers get a little irked over the fact that I used a plural verb after what American English would see as a singular noun. "Handango <i>have</i> a trial version available..." as opposed to "Handango <i>has</i> a trial version available...". Despite getting blasted for being grammatically incompetent, I couldn't help but laugh that this was around the fifteenth time in as many months that the same thing had been pointed out to me. Yet in British/Australian English, treating business names as group nouns is almost second nature, hence the copious use of subsequent plural verbs. So no, I'm not grammatically incompetent (or at least I hope not), but all this uproar has been generated because there just isn't any uniformity in our modern-day English language. <!><br /><br />But the differences don't stop there. Just yesterday, one of the Pocket PC Thoughts readers <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=39676">jokingly exclaimed</a> how annoying it was for us Commonwealth chums to be spelling "colour" with a "u". Thankfully, he/she had not spoken about our use of "s" instead of "z" in words like "customise", "realise", etc. But I raised that point anyway! :mrgreen:<br /><br />Then I had an <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=340372#340372">interesting conversation</a> with Dave (a.k.a. Paragon) the other day. He knew Australian slang! And there's no denying that slang helps make every English language unique. I've lost count the number of times I've confused the other editors on IM with my Australian slang (which at the time, I forgot was slang altogether). Earlier in the week, I was convinced that Ed and I spoke two different languages. Ed, with his thick Southern American accent, and me, with my "true-blue" Aussie tongue, didn't seem to integrate nicely. But that's another story... Let's just say our conversation was filled with <i>"huh?"</i> more than anything else.<br /><br />So what's the point of this thread? Let's use it to highlight differences in our English language. Got something in American English that British English doesn't have? Vice versa? What about a bit of slang to wind down the day? Heck, if you want to talk about the annoyance of the lack of uniformity in our metric and imperial systems as well, you're more than welcome to. Hopefully, with enough people providing input, we can finally work out just how weird the English language is, and the next time I (apparently) do something grammatically incorrect in my front page posts, well, you'll know it's not that grammatically incorrect after all. <i>"Bonzer! Get crackin' on them posts!"</i> ;-)

[Rob Borek]

Canadian English is an interesting hybrid of US and British English, with a tendency to lean toward British English, though we generally do spell stuff with a 'z' (ie realize) and car stuff the American way (ie curb, tire) but financial and other stuff is generally British (ie colour, cheque, grey, centre).

That said, I can spell words in either Canadian, US, or British English, and know my way around British slang (and a little bit of Aussie slang).

The thing about companies irks me as well - I would use "has" and not "have" as well.

[OSUKid7]

The other day, I had one of the readers get a little irked over the fact that I used a plural verb after what American English would see as a singular noun. "Handango have a trial version available..." as opposed to "Handango has a trial version available...". Despite getting blasted for being grammatically incompetent, I couldn't help but laugh that this was around the fifteenth time in as many months that the same thing had been pointed out to me. Yet in British/Australian English, treating business names as group nouns is almost second nature, hence the copious use of subsequent plural verbs. So no, I'm not grammatically incompetent (or at least I hope not), but all this uproar has been generated because there just isn't any uniformity in our modern-day English language. <!>
Wow, never knew that's why people used the plural "have" after company names. I always assumed it was a mistake. Here in the states, businesses are entities - so a business does something. I guess it's like the words staff and faculty - they consist of many people, but in US English they are singular.

[Paragon]

Just for the record, Ed DOES speak a different language.


BTW.....Darius, should I throw a chillie bin in the boot of my UT to put the tinnies in?

Do they still sell "stubbies" at the Bottle Shops downunder? My favorite part of Australia was drivethru Bottle Shops. :cool: We tried them here in Canada, but nobody figured out what they were for. I think it was because they didn't sell donuts. :)

Dave

[Darius Wey]

BTW.....Darius, should I throw a chillie bin in the boot of my UT to put the tinnies in?

Oh yes. The bigger the better. More slabs for storage. :D

Do they still sell "stubbies" at the Bottle Shops downunder? My favorite part of Australia was drivethru Bottle Shops. :cool: We tried them here in Canada, but nobody figured out what they were for. I think it was because they didn't sell donuts. :)

Most definitely. There are a truckload of drive-thru's here, each and every one of them stocked up with stubbies.

[ADBrown]

BTW.....Darius, should I throw a chillie bin in the boot of my UT to put the tinnies in?

Oh yes. The bigger the better. More slabs for storage. :D

Do they still sell "stubbies" at the Bottle Shops downunder? My favorite part of Australia was drivethru Bottle Shops. :cool: We tried them here in Canada, but nobody figured out what they were for. I think it was because they didn't sell donuts. :)

Most definitely. There are a truckload of drive-thru's here, each and every one of them stocked up with stubbies.

I think I followed most of that. For the hopelessly lost, a "chillie bin" would be a portable insulated box for keeping food or drinks cold: American is "cooler". A 'boot' is the storage area of an automobile: American is "trunk". "Tinnies" would be aluminum cans of beer: American is "beer". (Or "tinnies" could mean a small boat, but I don't think that will fit in the boot.) A "bottle shop" would be an establishment for selling liquor and spirits: American is "Liquor shop". I'm guessing that a drive-through "bottle shop" is exactly what it sounds like: American is "felony DUI".

[PeterMoore]

Check out this website
http://www.spellingsociety.org/

for example the following all make the same sound when spoken
Sh: Sounds
Shop
Sure
Special
Pension
Mention
Machine
Crescendo
Mission
Luxury
Anxious
Moustache

English IS Mental

:confused totally: Pete

[carphead]

The best solution to all of this is quite obvious!

Why not turn the clock back and all fall back into line and speak the queens english? :lol:

[bjornkeizers]

Yes, english does tend to have some lovely... nuances and little eccentricities. I talk with people from all over the world, from the UK to the US to people in Bangkok or whatnot - we communicate just fine, but ever so often you run into one of these strange grammatical anomalies. For example, if I talk about something grey, I use 'grey' (as you can see) but some of my friends in the US use gray. I have no clue why or how this happened, but it's certainly fun to find these linguistic easter eggs :D

[G M Fude]

I think I followed most of that. For the hopelessly lost, a "chillie bin" would be a portable insulated box for keeping food or drinks cold: American is "cooler".
Well done!

Except, I have never, ever (until today) known an Aussie to refer to a cooler as a "chillie bin". This is a term I have only ever heard New Zealanders use (and they pronounce it 'chully bun' with the usual transposition of vowel sounds characteristic of the Kiwi accent).

More frequently (almost ubiquitously, I'd have said), the term used Downunder is "esky", after the original device brand-named Esky (http://www.nylex.com.au/esky/). (note: the web site in the link to the original Esky calls them coolers!)

[Darius Wey]

More frequently (almost ubiquitously, I'd have said), the term used Downunder is "esky", after the original device brand-named Esky (http://www.nylex.com.au/esky/). (note: the web site in the link to the original Esky calls them coolers!)

You know now that you mention it, when I was in San Francisco four years ago, I was after some tape. Here in Australia, we commonly refer to it as "sticky tape". Now walking around the stores, I asked four American shop assistants if they knew where the "sticky tape" was. Naturally, they had no idea what I was talking about. It literally took me ten minutes for me to work out that my desired "sticky tape" was actually called "Scotch tape". Live and learn, I say. It was the most painful "sticky tape" I had ever bought in my life. :|

[G M Fude]

It was the most painful "sticky tape" I had ever bought in my life.
Could have been worse, Darius... In my younger days, there was a popular brand of sticky tape in Australia called Durex. That also became a generic name, as 3M's 'Scotch tape' has in the USA, viz. "Pass me the Durex will you please".

You do not say that in England!

[griph]

The best solution to all of this is quite obvious!

Why not turn the clock back and all fall back into line and speak the queens english? :lol:
That would be English - only the derivatives need to be sub categorised into i.e. American English etc.
Despite England's small geographical size there is a huge variety in the dialects, pronunciation and slang used, with people from one region often having difficulty in understanding what the next is saying. Try this:

Northern England:
T'barn goo! = Verb - To Go!
At barn 'arknin! (harkening) = Are you listening!
Why Aye! = Yes!
West Counrty:
Tha's gone un gottun where thee casn't back'n a'snt! = You're trapped where you cannot back out!
A gurt one = A big one!

Our language is enhanced by the richness in it's variation!

[yankeejeep]

You can tout globalization all you want (or is that globalisation?). Brits and Yanks are still two peoples divided by a common language.

As a side note: those of us in Boston still have an easier time understanding someone from London than someone from Atlanta.

[mcmuddle]

And slightly off topic from the 'Off Topic', it seems all languages have these subtle (sometimes not-so-subtle) differences that makes them interesting and more colourful.
When I worked in Tampa FL, our custodial staff was a mix of Mexican, Cuban, PuertoRican, Dominican etc...and there were several instances of a mundane word in one dialect being quite offensive in another!
Also, friends that 'speak' ASL (American Sign Language) have pointed out to me that dialects exist there too. Northeasterners use their whole arms in grand, expansive gestures, Southerners sign more slowly/casually, midwesterners are overly polite bordering on passive/aggressive etc.
Ain't it great?

[Ed@Brighthand]

"Flammable and inflammable mean the same thing? What a country!!"

-- Dr. Nick Riviera

.

[Darius Wey]

And slightly off topic from the 'Off Topic'...

I don't think you can get any more off-topic than it already is. :mrgreen:


"Flammable and inflammable mean the same thing? What a country!!"

While we're being picky on letters, have you ever wondered when "practice" and "practise" should and shouldn't be used?

In British English, practice is actually considered to be a noun, while practise is a verb. In American English, practice is both the noun and the verb.

I've had someone in the past tell me that I had misspelt practise. And insanely enough, I just brought up another English quirk. Misspelt is the British spelling, while misspelled is the American spelling.

:bangin:

[fireflyrsmr]

Thanks for starting this wonderful thread.

I've found that small talk is fairly easy across cultures but when having a business discussion it is a mine field of problems. In global conference calls we stop at random times to just go "around the room" and confirm we are all on the same page. Something that never happens when having a home room meeting.

[Video11]

...My favorite part of Australia was drivethru Bottle Shops. :cool: We tried them here in Canada, but nobody figured out what they were for. I think it was because they didn't sell donuts. :)

Dave

Actually, they are going to try drive thru 'In and Out' stores again in Canada. You'll be able to have your 'wobbly pops' put right into the boot of your car. Here is a link to a London Free Press Article (http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/LondonFreePress/News/2005/04/15/998062-sun.html) about it. And right here in London, too!

[hoodmeister]

There will always be variations in language. And a lot are on such a local level, that it's impossible to ever doucment the lot of them!

[Paragon]

I think I followed most of that. For the hopelessly lost, a "chillie bin" would be a portable insulated box for keeping food or drinks cold: American is "cooler".
Well done!

Except, I have never, ever (until today) known an Aussie to refer to a cooler as a "chillie bin". This is a term I have only ever heard New Zealanders use (and they pronounce it 'chully bun' with the usual transposition of vowel sounds characteristic of the Kiwi accent).

More frequently (almost ubiquitously, I'd have said), the term used Downunder is "esky", after the original device brand-named Esky (http://www.nylex.com.au/esky/). (note: the web site in the link to the original Esky calls them coolers!)

Ha! I actually typed in Esky (i've been using ie, should be y, my bad) and replaced it with "Chully bun" my best buddy when we were there who has become a life long friend is a Kiwi, so I have likely been influenced by him.

[Paragon]

...My favorite part of Australia was drivethru Bottle Shops. :cool: We tried them here in Canada, but nobody figured out what they were for. I think it was because they didn't sell donuts. :)

Dave

Actually, they are going to try drive thru 'In and Out' stores again in Canada. You'll be able to have your 'wobbly pops' put right into the boot of your car. Here is a link to a London Free Press Article (http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/LondonFreePress/News/2005/04/15/998062-sun.html) about it. And right here in London, too!

Great news! That's right around the corner from my house. 8) It is the same one that tried it a few years ago. It wasn't well promoted. If you drove around back they had a sliding patio door with a guy there, you simple told him what you wanted and he retrieved it and threw it in the "boot" for you.

Dave

[Video11]

Great news! That's right around the corner from my house. 8)
Dave
Good grief, we must be neighbours! I too, sadly, am old enough to remember the first attempt at a drive thru beer store. Must have been at least 15 years ago.

And 'neighbours' with a 'U' keeps things on topic. :)

[gdowsett]

British English!!!! As an Englishman can we lose this British English? English, plain and simple, is the language I speak in the same way as the French speak French, Spanish speak Spanish. It's only Microsoft that has seen fit to change the world's languages!!

[Felix Torres]

The best solution to all of this is quite obvious!

Why not turn the clock back and all fall back into line and speak the queens english? :lol:

Better yet, lets turn the clock forward and adopt spanish as the world language!
Its nice and regular, well codified and flexible, has a long pedigree going to the roman empire, you can actually read thousand-year old manuscripts in it, and, above all, it has the best music by far. :devilboy:

Only downside is you can't pun in spanish. 8)

[BugDude10]

Darius, it's funny you mention the "Handango have" issue, because I was just thinking of saying something about that, since, here in the US, that's incorrect. (I didn't say anything because I didn't want to sound like a anal-retentive jerk. But since someone else has already mentioned it, let me just add that "Handango have" is wrong, wrong, WRONG! AND STOP IT!!)

On the spelling issue, I read somewhere that you could spell "fish" "ghoti": the "gh" as in "laugh", the "o" as in "women", and the "ti" as in "motion".

On the language differences issue, there are sometimes even variations between regions in the same country. For example, here in the US, in the Red States, they call our leader "President Bush", while in the Blue States they call him "that ignorant hillbilly jackass". Interesting stuff.

[griph]

British English!!!! As an Englishman can we lose this British English? English, plain and simple, is the language I speak in the same way as the French speak French, Spanish speak Spanish. It's only Microsoft that has seen fit to change the world's languages!!
Agree 1000%!!! Hands off MS!

[Darius Wey]

wrong, wrong, WRONG! AND STOP IT!!

You are hard to please, aren't you? Sorry though, I've worked off Australian English my entire life, so that's just the way things will have to be for the moment. ;) :lol:

[Paragon]

Great news! That's right around the corner from my house. 8)
Dave
Good grief, we must be neighbours! I too, sadly, am old enough to remember the first attempt at a drive thru beer store. Must have been at least 15 years ago.

And 'neighbours' with a 'U' keeps things on topic. :)

Yup, you're right it was about 15 years ago.

They are now renovating that location, it is all new colours. I'm wondering if that practise will practice putting the beer in the boot for you, or if you will have to do it yourself? ;)

...I'm about a 3 minute drive southwest of that store.

[wbuch]

The best solution to all of this is quite obvious!

Why not turn the clock back and all fall back into line and speak the queens english? :lol:

How about a deal. If we Americans agree to use the British spelling for words, can we all agree to standardise on company names as being singular? :D

[Perry Reed]

I like this saying:

People in business now speak English all over the world... except in Scotland.

:D

[wiz]

[quote=ADBrown]
I think I followed most of that. For the hopelessly lost, a "chillie bin" would be a portable insulated box for keeping food or drinks cold


Don't be surprised when
Kiwis demonstrate that there's more interpretations possible of the term "chillie bin". Being a Dutchman of French origin, I once witnessed a "chillie bin" being driven onto the grounds at our Cricketclub in the Netherlands. Basically it was the type of van from which one would expect sodas or chips to be sold, but for this occasion it had the words "chillie bin" painted all over the side. We ended up ****faced because of all the "tinnies" coming out of that van, a fine conclusion of a Thursday night's cricket practice. Turner time indeed!

[Paragon]

Ah......so it was a self propelled portable chillie bin, on wheels.

[Ed Hansberry]

Just for the record, Ed DOES speak a different language.
Yup. Southern. :D

I was talking to an auditor the other day about our foil inventory (we wrap pencils with decorated foils - go to Party City and those pencils were likely done by us for example) and for the life of me I couldn't get her to understand what I was saying. Finally someone else in the room sort of laughed out loud and said "he is saying 'foil' in southern."

Heh heh. What do they know? They are all from New Jersey. I mean, Joisy. :lol:

And in this usege, I am still pretty sure "Handango have updated..." is wrong. http://alt-usage-english.org/groupnames.html Hangango is a singular entity that has updated its software, not a collective of employees that all have updated it.

[threedaysdwn]

Company names are neither singular nor plural. They are "collective" nouns. Officially, in American English, these are to be treated as singular nouns.

In modern (real-word) American English, collective nouns are usually paired with a singular verb, but not always. For instance, "My family is/are always fighting amongst themselves."

However, in general that usage is rare. A more common inconsistency in American English is the use of a singular verb and plural pronoun referring to the same collective noun. For instance, "The government has not announced a new policy. They are still working on it."

However, these complications only arise because often the collective noun refers to a group of people (or singular nouns) that could be addressed in the plural.

It is common for British speakers to use the plural verb after a collective noun "Audi have launched their new competition for the M5," - but most English standards bodies have declared this usage incorrect.

[griph]

The best solution to all of this is quite obvious!

Why not turn the clock back and all fall back into line and speak the queens english? :lol:

How about a deal. If we Americans agree to use the British spelling for words, can we all agree to standardise on company names as being singular? :D
Deal - I'll hold all 295,734,134 (according to the CIA) of you to it! ;-)

[Paragon]

Deal - I'll hold all 295,734,134 (according to the CIA) of you to it! ;-)

How many of those are in red states, and how many in blue states? :)

[Ed Hansberry]

Deal - I'll hold all 295,734,134 (according to the CIA) of you to it! ;-)

How many of those are in red states, and how many in blue states? :)
Just the right proportion. :mrgreen:

[griph]

Deal - I'll hold all 295,734,134 (according to the CIA) of you to it! ;-)

How many of those are in red states, and how many in blue states? :)

According to http://www.usatoday.com/news/bythenumbers/2004-state-populations.htm
State 2004 population (millions) Pct. Change 2003-2004 2004 rank
Alabama 4.53 0.60% 23
Alaska 0.66 1.10% 47
Arizona 5.74 3.00% 18
Arkansas 2.75 0.90% 32
California 35.89 1.20% 1
Colorado 4.6 1.20% 22
Connecticut 3.5 0.50% 29
Delaware 0.83 1.50% 45
District of Columbia 0.55 -0.70% 50
Florida 17.4 2.30% 4
Georgia 8.83 1.80% 9
Hawaii 1.26 1.10% 42
Idaho 1.39 1.90% 39
Illinois 12.71 0.50% 5
Indiana 6.24 0.60% 14
Iowa 2.95 0.40% 30
Kansas 2.74 0.40% 33
Kentucky 4.15 0.70% 26
Louisiana 4.52 0.50% 24
Maine 1.32 0.60% 40
Maryland 5.56 0.80% 19
Massachusetts 6.42 -0.10% 13
Michigan 0.11 0.30% 8
Minnesota 5.1 0.70% 21
Mississippi 2.9 0.70% 31
Missouri 5.75 0.60% 17
Montana 0.93 0.90% 44
Nebraska 1.75 0.60% 38
Nevada 2.33 4.10% 35
New Hampshire 1.3 0.80% 41
New Jersey 8.7 0.70% 10
New Mexico 1.9 1.30% 36
New York 19.23 0.10% 3
North Carolina 8.54 1.40% 11
North Dakota 0.63 0.20% 48
Ohio 11.46 0.20% 7
Oklahoma 3.52 0.50% 28
Oregon 3.59 0.80% 27
Pennsylvania 12.41 0.30% 6
Rhode Island 1.08 0.40% 43
South Carolina 4.2 1.20% 25
South Dakota 0.77 0.80% 46
Tennessee 5.9 1.00% 16
Texas 22.49 1.70% 2
Utah 2.39 1.60% 34
Vermont 0.62 0.30% 49
Virginia 7.46 1.30% 12
Washington 6.2 1.20% 15
West Virginia 1.82 0.20% 37
Wisconsin 5.51 0.60% 20
Wyoming 0.51 0.90% 51

According to this:
http://sensoryoverload.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/now_map_2.jpg

The spread Red/Blue States (if my mental arithmetic and undertanding of State abbreviations are correct) despite there appearing to be geographically more red than blue, on population it is pretty close to 50:50 - but then I'm only a Brit and bound to have got that one wrong - there isn't much that's more confusing than US Politics! Perhaps the rules for Cricket for Americans?

PS Sorry - but I seem to have taken this thread even further off topic! 8)

[Paragon]

Ok griph, take it even further....on a world map how many are red, and how many are blue, in the true meaning of red and blue as described earlier in this thread. :)

....I'm keeping this light. No need for anyone to pop an artery over any of this. ;)

[SteveHoward999]

Ahhh - I love this spelling thing. Americans seem to think that the reason they have simplified the spelling of English words is because they are right to do so, and the British are somehow weird.

But the reality is that the reason the spelling has been simplified is becuase the average American is pretty illiterate and needs simpler spelling to cope - like tire and nite.

My favourite recent discovery was the American respelling of the word accoutrement to accoutERment. As with all other words where the Americans have swapped the er to re, the Americans think they are correcting a misspelling when in fact they are changing the spelling to hide their inability to cope with the pronounciation of the letters 're' as "rrr" and instead they make the pronounciation "err" - center instead of centre is another example.

Light the blue touch paper and stand well back ........




:-)

[Darius Wey]

"he is saying 'foil' in southern." Heh heh. What do they know? They are all from New Jersey. I mean, Joisy. :lol:

So what's "foil" in Southern? Ferl? :lol:

And in this usege, I am still pretty sure "Handango have updated..." is wrong. http://alt-usage-english.org/groupnames.html Hangango is a singular entity that has updated its software, not a collective of employees that all have updated it.

Bartleby (http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/020.html) have summed it up quite nicely:

Some nouns, like committee, clergy, enemy, group, family, and team, refer to a group but are singular in form. These nouns are called collective nouns. In American usage, a collective noun takes a singular verb when it refers to the collection considered as a whole, as in The family was united on this question or The enemy is suing for peace. It takes a plural verb when it refers to the members of the group considered as individuals, as in My family are always fighting among themselves or The enemy were showing up in groups of three or four to turn in their weapons. In British usage, collective nouns are more often treated as plurals: The government have not announced a new policy. The team are playing in the test matches next week.

So yes, I do agree that in American English, it's wrong to refer to it as "Handango have..." since it's probably more of a singular entity than a group of employees in such a context, but British English begs to differ. Fair dinkum, eh? :D

[Darius Wey]

No need for anyone to pop an artery over any of this. ;)

Don't worry, Dave. My bubbles burst over this issue years ago. ;) :lol:

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

It's funny. I am a native English speaker as I was born and raised here in the US. Then about 5 years ago, I started to study Thai and then a year or two later, I had to start picking up Japanese.

After a while, I started to realize that some of the exception rules (i.e. - illogical rules) in Thai and Japanese was nothing close to the illogical exceptions in English.

Take these three future-tense verbs which are spelled and pronounced and used the exact same way: take, fake, make

What are the past tense versions of each? -> took, faked, made

We're taught growing up that if the final letter is an 'e' and it comes after a consonant, that it means the vowel before the consonant is a long vowel sound. For example, look at the word bone or zone. But that doesn't explain the words gone or done.

...or how about the words one and won. They're spelled completely differently but pronounced the same.

Here's a favorite with my Thai colleagues though... how about the word desert. There are two forms - the noun and the verb. Both are spelled the same way, but the noun is pronounced differently (the first syllable is stressed) than the verb (where the 2nd syllable is stressed)... and then to confuse things even more, the verb form is pronounced the same way as the word dessert which is a noun that has nothing to do with either!

Then you throw in all the differences around the world from US to UK to Australia, and we have a language that is just pure chaos!!

[Ed Hansberry]

But the reality is that the reason the spelling has been simplified is becuase the average American is pretty illiterate
At least the average illiterate American can spell "because"… :roll: We also know starting a sentence with the word "but" is poor grammar.

[Darius Wey]

We also know starting a sentence with the word "but" is poor grammar.

Actually Ed, I hate to point out minor quirks, but I was flipping through an Oxford School of English book (no, don't ask me why I've got one), and this is what they say about "And" and "But" being used in front of sentences:

"There's no good reason not to start sentences with 'but' (or 'and'). There's an old-fashioned rule which says it's bad English to do this, but it's a perfectly natural part of the way we speak English. There's no logic in trying to ban it from writing. If you use it too often, it gets distracting. But it can be a useful way of drawing attention to a contrasting point."

I also used to think it was bad grammar to start sentences with "And" and "But", but according to the folk who devote their lives to the chaotic language, it is apparently acceptable. :|

[Paragon]

I have to be totally honest, I don't get too wrapped up on how people spell, or if their grammar is correct. I listen to what they are actually saying.

Fair dinkum......I forgot about that one Darius. ;)

Dave

[OneAngryDwarf]

"*Insert Company Name Here* have" definitely sounds bad for Americans, I can atest to that... almost makes me cringe... I wouldn't hold a grudge against any person from a different country who does that though.

[TMann]

"Flammable and inflammable mean the same thing? What a country!!"

-- Dr. Nick Riviera

.

Along those same lines, did you ever stop to think that the word "cleave" means to both "to separate", (think of a meat cleaver,) and also "to join together." File that one in the category of interesting, but totally useless bits of trivia... :)

This is a very funny thread, by the way. It IS amazing how much the Queen's English has been changed as it was carried over the Atlantic, Indian and Pacific oceans. I feel that we all owe someone back in Britain an apology...

TMann

[SteveHoward999]

But the reality is that the reason the spelling has been simplified is becuase the average American is pretty illiterate
At least the average illiterate American can spell "because"… :roll: We also know starting a sentence with the word "but" is poor grammar.


Ever heard of a tpyo? I am as guilty as anyone for the occasional mess-spilling.

Poor grammar is hard to define, when acceptable grammar changes from generation to generation. I was always taught not to use But, Because, And and However at the start of a sentence. But I am and always have been an avid reader and I learnt quickly that these 'rules' were constantly broken. I asked numerous people, including teachers, about this and gleaned that actually it is perfectly legitimate to use these words at the start of a sentence - firstly because people do it all the time, and common usage becomes accepted usage, and secondly because it is not actually wrong, just inadvisable when used too much or in poor context :-)

I am disappointed. I expected greater indignance over my comments. Maybe Monday will change things ;-)

[jgrnt1]

I was born and raised in upstate New York. I moved to the Dallas area over twenty years ago and met my Australian wife here. She had originally come here as an exchange student while in high school. Between the Southern drawl, the Cowboy twang and the Australian whatever you want to call it, I sometimes get confused. But (sorry Ed and Darius -- I never start a sentence with "but", but I had to throw it in) that is nothing compared to the confusion my kids face. Their English is pretty Americanized, without the Southern accent, but bits of the South and Australia work their way into the boys' speech.

My nine year old will be "fixin" to do something; when he has trouble with it, he may say he "cahn't" do it; when he gets help with it, he may say, "Thanks, mate."

There are a lot of naming differences which haven't been talked about yet (unless I missed them). Some of these may be more British -- it's hard to remember:

bonnet -- hood (car)
lift -- elevator
flat -- apartment
aluminium -- aluminum

In the US, we go to the hospital, or a hospital. We never go to hospital.

American English has so much regionalization that it can be difficult to understand someone from another area of the country -- even from the same genereal region. In upstate New York, we don't speak like "New Yawkers" -- that is actually a metropolitan New York - New Jersey accent (OK, fireproof suit is on. NYC residents won't take kindly to being thrown in with NJ). With very little exaggeration:

Upstate New York -- "Park the car at Harvard Yard" with the stereotypical American "r".

Boston -- "Pahk the cah at Hahvad Yahd"

Maine or New Hampshire -- "Pack the ca' at Havad Yad" with the "a" pronounced as in "candy."

The Cowboy twang is an interesting variation of the English language, too. Again, without much exaggeration, there are three completely different words pronounced "ranch" -- the "ranch" on which you raise cattle, the "wrench" you use to fix your car, and the "rinse" you put in your hair to help with the tangles. :)

[SteveHoward999]

This is a very funny thread, by the way. It IS amazing how much the Queen's English has been changed as it was carried over the Atlantic, Indian and Pacific oceans. I feel that we all owe someone back in Britain an apology...

TMann


Spend a couple of weeks in Britain. You can travel 5 miles and discover the local accent and slang has changed significantly. Even the Queen doesn't speak "Queen's" English.

[alanjrobertson]

Hi folks

Been greatly enjoying this OT thread - meant to be revising for exams today but this has provided a welcome diversion :D

I'm not sure if many folks have read them, but two books on this very topic that I'd especially like to recommend are:

'Mother Tongue' by Bill Bryson
&amp;
'Eats, Shoots &amp; Leaves' by Lynne Truss

The latter was pretty big here in the UK for Christmas 2004 - it's a nice short readable book about grammar (covers a lot of the starting a sentence with 'and' or 'but' issue, etc!). The former is a truly excellent book by a top author that (a) explains so many of these US-UK differences whilst (b) making you split your sides with laughter ;) Bill Bryson was born and brought up in the USA but then lived in the UK for 15y or so - he's therefore got an excellent insight from both sides of the pond :) (I'd also recommend all the other books he's written :D)

An interesting point he made in his book is that many of the spellings we in Britain think of as being Americanisms are in fact Old English - it's just that the spellings/usage moved on/evolved over here whilst staying the same in the USA.

As an aside - I'm similarly confused re. measurements - I think of weight in kg, height in feet (although in metres at work for calculations!), distance in cm/m, except in the car when it's miles! Temperature in centrigrade, volume in ml or litres, except for pints of beer :D All very confusing and I'm glad to have a converter on the PDA to handle the hard work :D

In closing - one of the best differences in usage between Britain and America must be the use of 'fanny' - I first heard it when on an American TV programme when someone started talking about 'fanny packs' - we'd call it a bum bag, and a fanny has slightly difference connotations ;) I also remember when I was younger (about 14 or so) and travelling in the USA with my parents - at check-in the receptionist asked like if we'd like an extra 'cot' in the room for me - we all looked a bit shocked until we realised that she'd meant a spare bed (rather than the thing you'd put a baby in!).

Cheers :D

Alan

[TMann]

I'm not sure if many folks have read them, but two books on this very topic that I'd especially like to recommend are:

'Mother Tongue' by Bill Bryson
&amp;
'Eats, Shoots &amp; Leaves' by Lynne Truss



I second the Bill Bryson recommendation. I've read a couple of his books and he's hilarious. 'Mother Tongue' is on my list of books to read.

TMann

[SteveHoward999]

I second the Bill Bryson recommendation. I've read a couple of his books and he's hilarious. 'Mother Tongue' is on my list of books to read.

TMann


Ditto on Bill Bryson. "Made in America" and "I'm a Stranger Here Myself" are others to look out for.

[Darius Wey]

As an aside - I'm similarly confused re. measurements - I think of weight in kg, height in feet (although in metres at work for calculations!), distance in cm/m, except in the car when it's miles! Temperature in centrigrade, volume in ml or litres, except for pints of beer :D All very confusing and I'm glad to have a converter on the PDA to handle the hard work :D

You know, now that you mention it, I used to think I was 100% metric, but not so anymore. In terms of distances, I measure everything in metric, except once I jump on a plane, I start thinking in feet, miles and what not. It's rather interesting how the human mind works. :?

[Jon Westfall]

As an aside - I'm similarly confused re. measurements - I think of weight in kg, height in feet (although in metres at work for calculations!), distance in cm/m, except in the car when it's miles! Temperature in centrigrade, volume in ml or litres, except for pints of beer :D All very confusing and I'm glad to have a converter on the PDA to handle the hard work :D

You know, now that you mention it, I used to think I was 100% metric, but not so anymore. In terms of distances, I measure everything in metric, except once I jump on a plane, I start thinking in feet, miles and what not. It's rather interesting how the human mind works. :?

Oh it is interesting how the human mind works. If you want an interesting read on just how strange our brains can get, check out V.S. Ramachandran's Phantoms In The Brain ;)

[Canadrian]

I'm a Canadian but I recently spent two years in Devon, England (and going back this summer). I used to get in the most heated arguments with some folks over the language. The above mention of being "in hospital" reminded me of a few of my biggest sticking points. :)

The most infuriating of all, was the insistance of the people I met to make statements like "he's a bit poorly" when referring to someone's illness. I used to rant and rave that you CAN NOT use "poorly" as an adjective, because it's an adverb! The closest you could come would be to say "he's feeling poorly" or "he's doing poorly", but that still sounds funny. However, I couldn't convince them to say "he's sick", because "sick" usually only refers to vomit there. I swear, I wanted to tear my hair out every time I heard that someone was "poorly".

The other big thing was the pronunciation of the word "Tuna". The English insisted on pronouncing it "chuna" despite any logic I could throw at them. I know it's a bit anal-retentive, but it really "did my head in" to hear them say it. I would say, "what sound does the letter 't' make?" They would respond, "tuh." Then I'd say "what sound does the letter 'u' make?" The would respond, "ooh." So I would yell, "THEN IT'S NOT BLOODY 'CHUNA', IS IT? IT'S 'TUNA'!!!" To which they would reply, "no, it's 'chuna'."

Finally, I had great consternation over my infamous Canadian pronunciation of the "lifted" vowels. If I say "no doubt about it", and American or English person will snicker and tell me I'm saying "noo doot aboot it." This was the inspiration for many of the "jokes" in the South Park movie. :) Well, having taken Linguistics at college, I would try to carefully explain the difference between what I was saying and what they thought I was saying, and why this occurred, etc. But it basically ended up being an exercise in futility.

A brief explanation (and hopefully I can remember my linguistics here): When Canadians pronounce the words cow or buy, we pronounce them more-or-less similarly to Americans and the English. Cow and buy are written in IPA (the International Phonetic Alphabet, where each letter represents a specific sound and so pronunciations can be accurately written down) as kaw and bay. The sounds at the end of them are known as aw and ay, respectively. But if those sounds are followed by a consonant (such as t), Canadians change their pronunciation, according to a phenomenon known as Canadian raising. For instance, with the words about and fight, Yanks and Brits would pronounce the words as ubawt and fayt, respectively. Canadians, however, change the aw and ay sounds to uw and uy, resulting in pronunciations of ubuwt and fuyt, respectively. (To make the sounds yourself, try saying "uh" but following it with a "w" or "y" sound to make "uhw" or "uhy".) The reason so many people can't hear what we're saying properly is because as you learn your language, your brain gets rid of the sounds you don't use. The uw and uy sounds are simply not used in other variations of English, so your brain erased them. Then, when you listen to a Canadian say "about", you laugh at us insidiously and claim we're saying "aboot." :roll:

I've explained this so many times to British people, I can't keep count. But the explanations usually took place on late nights at the pub, and if you've actually ready this far, you can imagine how my explanation would sound even more boring if you were drunk, and only really interested in making fun of the silly Canadian bugger. :) The one person who actually listened to me carefully enough to recognise that I wasn't saying "aboot" could only manage a firm determination that I was actually saying "a boat" (with an English pronunciation). She was equally convinced that I was saying "a boat" as I was convinced that I was not, so I considered it a lost cause.

My (English) girlfriend, however, did eventually figure it out. In fact, she can now actually approximate a pretty convincing Canadian accent. Much better than my Devonshire accent, anyway. :) It's probably because she spent so bloody much time around me! :D

[alanjrobertson]

The most infuriating of all, was the insistance of the people I met to make statements like "he's a bit poorly" when referring to someone's illness. I used to rant and rave that you CAN NOT use "poorly" as an adjective, because it's an adverb! The closest you could come would be to say "he's feeling poorly" or "he's doing poorly", but that still sounds funny. However, I couldn't convince them to say "he's sick", because "sick" usually only refers to vomit there. I swear, I wanted to tear my hair out every time I heard that someone was "poorly". LOL :D Just go Aussie instead - "he's a bit crook, mate" :)

Funny what you're saying about tuna- the way you're wanting us to pronounce is it more like 'toona' (to our ears). There's a good few food words actually (I'm going to try and spell kinda phonetically so you can see what I mean, but unfortunately I don't know the IPL that Canadrian mentioned!) - tomayto vs tomahto, oregano (said quite fast) vs oregahno, toona vs choona, baysil vs bahsil, zucchini vs courgette, eggplant vs aubergine (OK those two are just completely different!) - I made them into googlefights :lol: - aubergine (http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&amp;word1=aubergine&amp;word2=eggplant) and zucchini (http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&amp;word1=courgette&amp;word2=zucchini) won!

PS - found this Aussie dictionary (http://www.amazingaustralia.com.au/language.htm) online - it's amazing how many of the words I recognise or are actually the same as used in Britain (&amp; I'm sure that's not just from watching Neighbours for many years!)

* rather famous Aussie soap broadcast on BBC1 in the UK - see www.neighbours.com if you really want to! It's nice and light-hearted - more than can be said for most homegrown British soaps!

[AzrealJG]

Finally, I had great consternation over my infamous Canadian pronunciation of the "lifted" vowels. If I say "no doubt about it", and American or English person will snicker and tell me I'm saying "noo doot aboot it." This was the inspiration for many of the "jokes" in the South Park movie. :) Well, having taken Linguistics at college, I would try to carefully explain the difference between what I was saying and what they thought I was saying, and why this occurred, etc. But it basically ended up being an exercise in futility.

That said, as a fellow Canadian, Newfoundlanders (and most maritimers) really do pronounce it, aboot. ;)

[pmgibson]

[quote="SteveHoward999...firstly because people do it all the time, and common usage becomes accepted usage...

I think you've hit on the exact reason why we have all these differences. There are so many rules that no one can remember them all and use them correctly, so we have many incorrect usages become so commonly used that they became accepted as correct.

[pmgibson]

An interesting point he made in his book is that many of the spellings we in Britain think of as being Americanisms are in fact Old English - it's just that the spellings/usage moved on/evolved over here whilst staying the same in the USA.


Oh, yeah. Go into the hills in eastern Kentucky/Tennessee (Appalachia) and you'll find out just how isolated the Scottish folks who ran from the English in 1715 and 1745 became.

[SteveHoward999]

The most infuriating of all, was the insistance of the people I met to make statements like "he's a bit poorly" when referring to someone's illness. I used to rant and rave that you CAN NOT use "poorly" as an adjective, because it's an adverb!

The other big thing was the pronunciation of the word "Tuna".

Finally, I had great consternation over my infamous Canadian pronunciation of the "lifted" vowels.



You know what? You are wasting your time. All over Britain, in fact all over the world, you will find dialectic inconsistencies like "he's a bit poorly". What is correct is what people use and understand. There always are exceptions to the 'rules.

Tuna? What about the American/Canadian replacement of dd for t and tt? Kidden, midden, wadder .... kitten, mitten, water ... etc etc. It is dialectic, and there is no sense fighting it.

It took me a long tim eot recognise a Canadian accent vs a US accent - then I realized that what you introduce as lifted vowels are much the same as the Irish pronounciation of the same vowel sounds. Makes it way easier for me to spot the accent these days.

By the way, Corwall's version of English is a long way from the 'typical' English spokem in the South East of England, which is what people outside of Britain are more used to. But you probably already know that true Cornish natives are almost unintelligible - as are people from any of the more rural areas in Britain.

[Darius Wey]

Tuna? What about the American/Canadian replacement of dd for t and tt? Kidden, midden, wadder .... kitten, mitten, water ... etc etc. It is dialectic, and there is no sense fighting it.

Reminds me of the whole issue concerning the expression of some two-digit numbers: e.g. 'twenny-one', 'thirdy-five', 'fordy-three', and so on. ;)

[mbc]

I moved from the U.S. to South Africa for a few years during my youth. After moving back to the U.S., I can still remember getting very strange looks in 10th grade when saying things like:

"Can I lend your rubber?" which meant I wanted to borrow an eraser.
"Knock me up at 7 AM" when asking someone to call to wake me up in the morning.
"Where is the lift?" when looking for an elevator.

Someone already mentioned "fanny"... my mother suffered some real embarrassment with that word while living in South Africa - it still makes her blush when she thinks about it.

I also remember my mother taking on the headmaster at my primary (aka elementary) school in South Africa, when my spelling of color, etc. lacked the expected "u".

[Prevost]

At least those speaking Panamanian English got an excuse.

[Newton Ford]

The best solution to all of this is quite obvious!

Why not turn the clock back and all fall back into line and speak the queens english? :lol:

Being an almost Cockney, middle-class Brit father of 5: One's children all speak perfect Queens English...

As they have grown up I have always been amazed that when the are playing with 'Barbie Dolls' or some other intensly imaginative play - they do so with a Californian accent!!!!!!

The power of television i must summise?

[uzetaab]

I've found that with the use of the net, these problems have become a lot more pronounced. Whenever I'm writing something online now, I often have to stop &amp; think for a minute to either decide which spelling of things to use or which one is the correct spelling. On several occasions I have actually cuaght myself spelling 'colour' as 'color' &amp; had to go back &amp; correct that. &amp; Occasionally, I will type 'coulor' or 'coulour'. But I think those last ones are more my dyslexia than anything.

Especially, when I write something that is not for the net, like a memo at work or something. People seem to make quite a big deal about incorrectly spelling things "the American way". Or saying 'Zee' instead of 'Zed' when talking about the last letter of the alphabet.

I think though, that as time goes on, with more &amp; more people use the net, that a lot of these variations will disappear.

For example, the thing that brought this whole topic up, about 'handango have/has' I would never have even noticed. However, if I'd typed it myself, I would have written 'have'.

[simon tahiti]

Along the same lines as the "fanny" example is the verb "to root".

In the USA it means to support a sporting team. In Australia it is a commonly used expression for sexual intercourse. (It's roughly equivalent to the American "to screw" in terms of its offensiveness - so fairly mild.)

I once heard a visiting American executive deliver a speech to the staff of his Australian subsidiary in which he said: "When you're in there with a client, trying to close a big deal, just remember that all the folks back at head office are rooting for you".

It brought the house down.

[SteveHoward999]

"When you're in there with a client, trying to close a big deal, just remember that all the folks back at head office are rooting for you".


What about 'spunk' ? In America, if you are full of spunk you are an energetic achiever, in Britain you are something else entirely.

I think Britain and Australia share a huge amount of slang terms that America does not recognise ... most of them seem to have sexual connotations. Hmmm - makes you kinda wonder why :mrgreen:

[Fuego]

...or how about the words one and won. They're spelled completely differently but pronounced the same.

No, they are pronounced differently in England; wun and won. Strangely, "Ton" is pronounced "Tun" unless it's "Wonton" as per the English prononciation of the Chinese food.

I think I'll just lapse back to Spanish where words are more readily pronounced as they are spelt ;)

[Fuego]

While we're being picky on letters, have you ever wondered when "practice" and "practise" should and shouldn't be used?

In British English, practice is actually considered to be a noun, while practise is a verb. In American English, practice is both the noun and the verb.

Same as "Licence" and "License", I believe.

[Darius Wey]

Strangely, "Ton" is pronounced "Tun" unless it's "Wonton" as per the English prononciation of the Chinese food.

Funnily enough, the Chinese pronounciation is "Tun" with some Chinese tones blended in. :D

[SteveHoward999]

...or how about the words one and won. They're spelled completely differently but pronounced the same.

No, they are pronounced differently in England; wun and won. Strangely, "Ton" is pronounced "Tun" unless it's "Wonton" as per the English prononciation of the Chinese food.

Depends where you are in England. There are so many dialectic differences that there is no definitive pronounciation, but certainly many people (most?) do pronounce won and one exactly the same, even though the speaker 'thinks' them differently. I doubt any non-native English speakers would spot the difference.

How about their, there, they're :-)

[Jonathon Watkins]

But since someone else has already mentioned it, let me just add that "Handango have" is wrong, wrong, WRONG! AND STOP IT!!)

Sorry, that's the way we speak mate. :)

Vive la differance eh! :wink:

[Jonathon Watkins]

How about a deal. If we Americans agree to use the British spelling for words, can we all agree to standardise on company names as being singular? :D

No deal I'm afraid old bean. :wink:

[Jonathon Watkins]

I am disappointed. I expected greater indignance over my comments. Maybe Monday will change things ;-)

Nah. PPCers are a laid back, cerebral and thoughtful lot. 8) :P

[Jonathon Watkins]

I've explained this so many times to British people, I can't keep count. But the explanations usually took place on late nights at the pub, and if you've actually ready this far, you can imagine how my explanation would sound even more boring if you were drunk, and only really interested in making fun of the silly Canadian bugger. :)

One must get ones pleasures where one finds them Canadrian. :wink: Good to have you aboard our little global ark. :grouphug: