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View Full Version : The Dysfunctional Windows ROM Update Situation


Jason Dunn
05-16-2005, 05:00 PM
<i>I wrote this article three weeks ago, before the MEDC 2005 keynote where Bill Gates stated that a new feature of Windows Mobile 5 was easier updates. I don't know if this new feature will address the problem I talk about below - let's hope so!</i><br /><br />I recently started using a Dell Axim X50v (for the second time) and before I started to load it up I checked for a ROM update because I was running the original ROM. Sure enough, ROM A02 was available. I installed it and began to load up my device with a whack of great apps. I also configured it with my five different email accounts, moved over my mobile favourites, installed some great themes, and punched in all those application registration codes. I'd say it took a total of 2-3 hours worth of time in total over a period of a few days.<br /><br />Shortly after, ROM A03 was released, and I found myself in a painful position: do I update to the latest ROM, and have to re-do all the work I put into building up my device? Or do I leave it as-is and ignore the benefits that the new ROM brings? So far I've opted for the latter, because I don't want to go through the hassle of setting up my device. The real question is, why is Microsoft putting their customers in a painful scenario like this?<!><br /><br /><span><b>Where's the Integration?</b></span><br />What makes this scenario even more frustrating is the lack of integration between the device, ActiveSync, and Outlook. Last I heard, part of Microsoft's business vision includes a concept called "Working Better Together" whereby it's a company goal to have their products work best with their other products. Meaning that Outlook would be the best companion for a Pocket PC or Smartphone. To some extent they've done that, but more by default (i.e.: it's free in the box) then any real innovation on the part of Microsoft.<br /><br />Why isn't there an "Export Documents &amp; Settings" wizard in ActiveSync that would bundle up your documents, Inbox accounts, device settings, and every other customized option? Why can't the Pocket PC automatically grab email account settings from Outlook? Why can't Pocket Internet Explorer automatically grab <i>all</i> of your favourites? ActiveSync is completely dysfunctional when it comes to backups and restores - the bulk of Pocket PC users never change the default name of their device from Pocket_PC, because giving the device a name isn't part of the initial startup wizard. So after a ROM upgrade, the user docks the Pocket PC named Pocket_PC...only to be told by ActiveSync that there's already a partnership with that name and the process can't continue. Why isn't there a way to tell ActiveSync that it's the same device and avoid this clumsy scenario?<br /><br />There are many clever ways that the out-of-box experience with a Pocket PC could be drastically better than it is now, but I don't see Microsoft or any of the OEMs putting any thought into this process. This same sort of solution would drastically assist users when it came time to upgrade the ROM on their device, or when getting a replacement device back from a warranty repair/exchange. I have a hunch Microsoft and the OEMs think it's just power users who switch devices every three months that run into these sorts of problems, but that's simply not true. Anyone that installs a ROM upgrade to get new features/fix problems will run into these problems.<br /><br /><span><b>Why is this Considered Acceptable?</b></span><br />This is a serious problem with the ROM updating system on Windows Mobile devices: could you imagine what would happen if, when Microsoft released the Windows XP SP2 update, the only way you could install it was to re-format your hard drive and re-install Windows from scratch. How many people would be willing to do that? Not very many. Yet we're being asked to do the very thing with our mobile devices, and without even the most basic of tools that users of Windows XP have (such as the Files &amp; Settings Transfer Wizard). The Windows Mobile ROM upgrading is fundamentally a broken process that causes user frustration.<br /><br />Ultimately, the ROM upgrade process is merely a symptom of a much wider problem: the fact that Microsoft has allowed the OEMs to turn the powerful, extensible, upgradeable Windows Mobile platform into an appliance-like, disposable software "solution" instead of the platform that it really is. But that's a rant for another day!

wardy
05-16-2005, 05:18 PM
I Hear you , I feel and share your pain.

Ward
05-16-2005, 05:20 PM
This is precisely what put me off with ActiveStink.

I use it only to produce the .cabs from .exes (bonus points to anybody who gives me an utility to do this) which I then copy to a folder and later, copy it to the CF card via wifi network shares. I don't even let it run in the background.

I pity the people who have to use ActiveStink. I really do. Its another MS app which has somehow managed to corner the market and delude people into thinking its the bee's knees.

Its not. Its an over-engineered solution which is more difficult to repair when something does go wrong. Syncing your Pocket PC should be as simple as connecting and running a small utility which performs the deed with minimum fuss or choosing an option to export changes since last sync to a file and transfer it manually on either the PC or PPC.

I mean, to add the functionality to sync a new file type involves writing a plugin, installing handlers, etc. Why? Why not just add a few lines to some ini file to copy this file type from this dir if newer than the same on PPC or vice versa? If conversion is needed, then the ini could contain paths to a third party converter. Its KISS. It works. Use it, MS for God's sake.

And another point: Why can't Pocket Word simply read MS Word file format in full? Simply marking the elements it doesn't support as plugins so you can edit around them. Why the need for the ridiculously over-complicated conduit and the extra file type?

Regarding your x50v ROM update. Just use the backup utility and backup programs and settings. Apply the newer ROM, hard reset as usual, then restore. Alright, you may lose functionality in general cases, but not here in this case. Dell hasn't changed all that much - besides, you can do this and simply opt to do the full deed at a later date like I did. I reinstalled clean a few days ago - feels no different to after I restored following the update.

Menneisyys
05-16-2005, 05:24 PM
The problem of the need for reinstalling/setting up everything again can be easily combatted with the Advanced restoration capabilities of Sprite Backup.

In a lot of cases, not even Sprite Backup is needed. Just restore the old backup (it's possible in most cases with a simple registry-based version number hack) and apply a simple registry patch (because the restore restores the old registry) to bring up the registry to be totally compliant with the new ROM.

Of course, these (especially the second one) requires a bit of manual work, especially for the first time when the registry hack is invented (see for example http://www.firstloox.org//forums/showthread.php?t=3585 on a current, actual example). Then, over-ROM-upgrade restoration becomes a breeze.

Of course, Windows Mobile and ActiveSync could handle all this automatically. But, we all know that, with Windows Mobile, a lot of even essential functionality can only be achieved by third party tools (the above-mentioned Sprite Backup) or manual system hacking (manual hacking and restoration of backup files/differeing registry entries).

Menneisyys
05-16-2005, 05:32 PM
Regarding your x50v ROM update. Just use the backup utility and backup programs and settings. Apply the newer ROM, hard reset as usual, then restore. Alright, you may lose functionality in general cases, but not here in this case. Dell hasn't changed all that much - besides, you can do this and simply opt to do the full deed at a later date like I did. I reinstalled clean a few days ago - feels no different to after I restored following the update.

Exactly the case with the Pocket Loox 720 upgrade. Much as there indeed is some difference in the registry between the two ROM versions, not updating the registry to the new version after a restore (which involves a full registry restore too, also meaning setting back the registry to its pre-upgrade state) doesn't have any consequences.

Naturally, other ROM upgrades may have more effect on the registry. These two, however, work without any additional post-restoration registry updating.

Bottom line: even without any official support for easy ROM upgrades, there may be cases when it's very easy to upgrade the ROM and restore backups made with the previous ROM version.

gorkon280
05-16-2005, 05:34 PM
The REAL issue is even Microsoft themselves treat Pocket PC's and Smartphone as appliances and nothing more. They EXPECT you to go get a new one every 12-18 months and I have simply said NO. I am TIRED of that run around. Who knows....maybe when work buys me a Blackberry (7520 with Nextel) maybe I will put my PPC in the drawer. I am TIRED of this BILL G knows best attitude I have seen from Microsoft as of late. Bill saying iPods aren't going to last? No, they won't last.....they will evolve. One could say the same thing about PC's. Every 5-10 years I hear let's replace the PC with Winterms and we still never do it. The PC keeps evolving. Many MANY years ago I remember everyone saying the Desktop PC is dead and everyone should get a laptop, yet how many have at least one of each??

I am TIRED of trying to stay on the leading edge of PPC's. I would LOVE to do it, but other things take precedent. I may get a new PPCPE next year or so, but my 4355 is doing just fine. I do lust for VGA display, but the brain dead way it's been implemented just sucks.

The DAY I am happier about the PPC as a platform is the day that Microsoft and the OEM's start to treat it like it should be treated....as a extremely portable computer that can be upgraded software wise. If they made the ROM update from Microsoft come in pieces AND direct from Microsoft with absolute bare minimum specs on the package, I bet it would sell to even people with decrepit PPC's like the 4355. DON'T tell me that that would be impossible because it can be done....if Microsoft and the OEM's so choose. Also make teh ROM updatable in place so you neevr have to have your data deleted. Maybe this persistent memory thing is what Microsoft is going to do about this. By storing your data in the ROM, there's a chance that the data won't go away during a update. Treat PPC's for what they are....pico computers(MY term.....smaller then a Microcomputer which is what a PC is.).

silver99
05-16-2005, 05:39 PM
I've experienced everything you've written in your article. Including the upgrade dilema to A03 on the X50v. For me the X50v runs great on the A02 ROM and therefore haven't had any need to upgrade. I guess the only way I would is if I had the error messages that others have had when running bluetooth and wifi simultaneously.

Regarding Activesink - it's unfortunate that the new version won't be able to sync wirelessly. It's seems like it's going from bad to worse.

Microsoft better get with the program or the competition might jump ahead. Apple if you're listening - I'll be the first in line to try out any PDA you create.

Paragon
05-16-2005, 05:49 PM
The problem of the need for reinstalling/setting up everything again can be easily combatted with the Advanced restoration capabilities of Sprite Backup.

In a lot of cases, not even Sprite Backup is needed. Just restore the old backup (it's possible in most cases with a simple registry-based version number hack) and apply a simple registry patch (because the restore restores the old registry) to bring up the registry to be totally compliant with the new ROM.



Yeah, but this isn't exactly easy out of the box operations that the basic user can do, or wants to do, Menneisyys.

The one thing that has always amazed me about the computer indusrty is how much they thing like computer people. Don't forget that for most people, computers, whether handheld or otherwise are simply tools. Tools they want to use to simplify their lives and work days. Not something they have to hack to get it to do what they want, or spend hours having to re-setup after upgrading. It all needs to be quick, and easy..do it...get done....move on... no need to mess with it to get it to work properly. Ask the average user how to setup an email account and they will look at you blankly and tell you they haven't got a clue, they have a neighbor, friend or family member who does all that for them......IT HAS TO BE EASY!

Dave

Phillip Dyson
05-16-2005, 05:51 PM
Unfortunately, I think hardware probably has a higher profit margin than software. I wonder how many OEMs would really exist if their hardware had a projected lifecycle of 2 to 3 years.

I think MS could have made it easier for consumers update long ago. Perhaps even from the start, but what would be the incentive for your HPs and Dells to invest in this market if they couldn't sell hardware. I don't think the industry is adding that many new customers every year.

Menneisyys
05-16-2005, 05:55 PM
The problem of the need for reinstalling/setting up everything again can be easily combatted with the Advanced restoration capabilities of Sprite Backup.

In a lot of cases, not even Sprite Backup is needed. Just restore the old backup (it's possible in most cases with a simple registry-based version number hack) and apply a simple registry patch (because the restore restores the old registry) to bring up the registry to be totally compliant with the new ROM.



Yeah, but this isn't exactly easy out of the box operations that the basic user can do, or wants to do, Menneisyys.

The one thing that has always amazed me about the computer indusrty is how much they thing like computer people. Don't forget that for most people, computers, whether handheld or otherwise are simply tools. Tools they want to use to simplify their lives and work days. Not something they have to hack to get it to do what they want, or spend hours having to re-setup after upgrading. It all needs to be quick, and easy..do it...get done....move on... no need to mess with it to get it to work properly. Ask the average user how to setup an email account and they will look at you blankly and tell you they haven't got a clue, they have a neighbor, friend or family member who does all that for them......IT HAS TO BE EASY!

Dave

I agree with you. This is why I also emphasized that the current incarnation of Windows Mobile &amp; ActiveSync leaves a lot to be desired, easy upgradability-wise, and that Microsoft could consider licensing/reimplementing the incremental/advanced restoration capabilities of Sprinte Backup to remedy the situation.

Paragon
05-16-2005, 06:05 PM
I agree with you. This is why I also emphasized that the current incarnation of Windows Mobile &amp; ActiveSync leaves a lot to be desired, easy upgradability-wise, and that Microsoft could consider licensing/reimplementing the incremental/advanced restoration capabilities of Sprinte Backup to remedy the situation.

Good idea, Menneisyys. But let Sprite work out all the bugs first, before they hand it over to MS, otherwise it's unlikely that will happen. ;)

Dave

crmoreira
05-16-2005, 06:10 PM
But I still need to add my point of view:

What do you think about one 'upgradable' PC and other 'not upgradable'?

Imagine your new HP or Dell PC without Windows upgrade possibilities?

Are they trying to force you to buy the new PPC w/ WM5???

Argh, HP never more! Dell, maybe...

...or another portable device!

Thanks!

Carlos

Jason Dunn
05-16-2005, 06:29 PM
Regarding your x50v ROM update. Just use the backup utility and backup programs and settings. Apply the newer ROM, hard reset as usual, then restore. Alright, you may lose functionality in general cases, but not here in this case. Dell hasn't changed all that much - besides, you can do this and simply opt to do the full deed at a later date like I did. I reinstalled clean a few days ago - feels no different to after I restored following the update.

Interesting - historically that's been a very bad way of doing it, and in many cases the restore wouldn't even work. I do remember reading about Dell's ROM updates being "restorable" but I have to admit I never tried that method because I wasn't convinced it actually worked. I guess I'll give this a go with the latest X50v ROM update and see what happens. :-)

I still think it's ridiculous that a ROM update requires a full hard reset though - we wouldn't re-format our desktop computers when applying SP2, so why do we have to do it here?

Jason Dunn
05-16-2005, 06:36 PM
The problem of the need for reinstalling/setting up everything again can be easily combatted with the Advanced restoration capabilities of Sprite Backup....just restore the old backup (it's possible in most cases with a simple registry-based version number hack) and apply a simple registry patch (because the restore restores the old registry) to bring up the registry to be totally compliant with the new ROM.

With all due respect, that's not a solution, that's a work around for something that shouldn't be such a problem in the first place. Asking customers to do registry hacks to restore a backup is not a viable solution.

mv
05-16-2005, 06:45 PM
When i upgraded my 3715 rom i backed up all to install in again. Upgrade done, and then, active stynk told me that the back up was made in a different machine. Urhg... i did not bothered. I returned the 3715 in favor of a 3115, wich came with a newer rom anyway... but no so new, because the 3715 last rom was letting me access my bank account, and with my new 3115 i canīt. Really. Why? who knows. Whe technology is creating more problems than itīs solving, itīs time to trash it, people! iīm getting tired of buying a new iPAQ every year just to find that the same problems we are crying about since pocket pc 2000 are still there.

DaleReeck
05-16-2005, 07:24 PM
The problem of the need for reinstalling/setting up everything again can be easily combatted with the Advanced restoration capabilities of Sprite Backup....just restore the old backup (it's possible in most cases with a simple registry-based version number hack) and apply a simple registry patch (because the restore restores the old registry) to bring up the registry to be totally compliant with the new ROM.

With all due respect, that's not a solution, that's a work around for something that shouldn't be such a problem in the first place. Asking customers to do registry hacks to restore a backup is not a viable solution.

To be fair, PC's and PPC's are apples and oranges. On a PC, the OS shares a rewritable space with your data (i.e., hard drive). Its fairly easy to upgrade. A PPC is a mix of non-writable ROM and volatile RAM. The registry issues in upgrading a PPC can probably be sovled, but the memory structure and how PPC's operate is a problem though I would think. Maybe WM2005 will make upgrading ROMSs easier.

hoodmeister
05-16-2005, 07:29 PM
Regarding your x50v ROM update. Just use the backup utility and backup programs and settings. Apply the newer ROM, hard reset as usual, then restore. Alright, you may lose functionality in general cases, but not here in this case. Dell hasn't changed all that much - besides, you can do this and simply opt to do the full deed at a later date like I did. I reinstalled clean a few days ago - feels no different to after I restored following the update.

Interesting - historically that's been a very bad way of doing it, and in many cases the restore wouldn't even work. I do remember reading about Dell's ROM updates being "restorable" but I have to admit I never tried that method because I wasn't convinced it actually worked. I guess I'll give this a go with the latest X50v ROM update and see what happens. :-)

I still think it's ridiculous that a ROM update requires a full hard reset though - we wouldn't re-format our desktop computers when applying SP2, so why do we have to do it here?

It would work... But it's also likely to negate some of the effects of the ROM update. {Due to replacing some of the updated files with the originals}

People aren't going to like me saying this.... But i'm happy with the current situation. Better off having the option to upgrade at all...

Integrated solutions, especially from MS, often come with a plethora of negative baggage. Taking your SP2 example, it can be the case that you may as well format. SP2 crippled three of my machines... I didn't bother installing it after that. Now I use a slipstreamed XP install, so i'm happy enough... All i'm saying is that, to me, it's an acceptable situation, and to be honest i'd rather MS ~ Dell ~ Whoever concentrated their efforts on improving other aspects of mobile devices.

For the record, i'm currently using an Axim X50v. I upgraded to A02 when it came out, and recently upgraded to A03.

Kathy_Harris
05-16-2005, 07:33 PM
A few days ago the boyfriend and I upgraded his 50v from 02 to 03. He had some issues with syncing bluetooth to his Mac and other small things.

He showed me (ha, ha) how to do it. Took 15 minutes to backup, upgrade rom, restore (using built in backup to CF).

He now syncs to his Mac via bluetooth.

Deus
05-16-2005, 08:07 PM
The real issue is the Microsoft consumer. Microsoft has setup a dicatorship like business. They say how it is and the consumer excepts it. Stop buying and they will get the hint.

Menneisyys
05-16-2005, 08:20 PM
It would work... But it's also likely to negate some of the effects of the ROM update. {Due to replacing some of the updated files with the originals}

file overwrite problems can easily be checked by simple size/date comparison. Very few files may be affected because \Windows is mostly ROM which is, therefore, not backed up/restored. It's mostly new/updated links in \Windows\Start Menu that are affected, if at all.

A bigger problem is the registry because - and this is why Sprite Backup also fails at sometimes restoring old stuff over ROM upgrades - there is no real difference between the system and user areas of the registry. That is, when you install a program, not only the user areas will be affected, but also system areas too. This is why it would require a lot of work to make a really generic restoration tool, and this is why Sprite sometimes fails at restoring in complex cases like this. All in these cases, custom, device- and ROM upgrade-specific restoration scripts can be written, which work 100% for the reasons outlined below.

BTW, if anyone wants to make an over-ROM-upgrade restoration, I can help him (and the entire PPC community by making the simply importable diff file available for all PPC users) with generating a registry import file based on the differences between the old and the new registries, WinCE databases and files (these are the three areas that different ROM versions may differ from the user's view and, therefore, it suffices to check the diffeences in them only.). Then, safe (!) over-ROM-upgrade restoration becomes a breeze.

No personal information will then be sent to me because I only need a registry (most important), complete file listing (may be omitted in most cases) and complete WinCE database (may also be omitted in most cases) snapshot file of a clean, freshly hard-reset device before and after the ROM upgrade. (This is how I've made the Pocket Loox 720 diff import file - see the above-mentioned FirstLoox thread -, which made hundreds of people's lives much easier.)

Menneisyys
05-16-2005, 08:23 PM
The real issue is the Microsoft consumer. Microsoft has setup a dicatorship like business. They say how it is and the consumer excepts it. Stop buying and they will get the hint.

Stop buying? What should we buy instead? Palm OS? ;)

(Symbian seems to be a much better choice than Palm OS though. The newly announced hi-end Nokia models really rock. I wish they weren't so damn expensive, even for us Europeans...)

beq
05-16-2005, 08:27 PM
I feel the pain too. As was posted recently, a new ROM upgrade from i-mate just came out for the JAM and I still haven't had time to do the upgrade and the whole application-reinstall again. What makes it the more painful, we got the JAM somewhat recently and I've just gone through the whole process of installing/configuring the apps on it.

And for our two i-mate PDA2k's, jwright's excellent ROM upgrade came out this month. But I've still yet to upgrade one of the PDA2k's, and for the other one that I've upgraded I've still yet to reinstall most of the apps, because he's supposed to release a newer build soon.

The whole thing has become such a chore that I dread. Reinstalling everything over again, entering license codes, reconfiguring each and every app (including complex apps like Pocket Informant, Pocket Breeze, etc). I'm not sure how Jason can manage in 2-3 hrs, it takes me literally days to finish just one PPC (I can be somewhat anal in configuring my apps just so).

Sometimes I get frustrated as to feel the whole thing's just not worth it (including the thousand $$$ spent on the software just this year) :(

P.S. I use Sprite Backup too and do see the option to "Enable Device Upgrade mode", but from a previous browse of their forums I get impression that in the real world there are many instances where this could not be done successfully (nagging problems creeping up here and there afterwards which might end up wasting more of your time in the future to diagnose). So to be safe I'd preferred to start clean from scratch after an upgrade...

beq
05-16-2005, 08:33 PM
Now we're supposed to go on a trip end of this week, and my own (upgraded) PDA2k still needs to have all its apps reinstalled again, so I have to finish it in the next couple of days, grr. Not sure whether to try to upgrade the JAM before we leave, as I might not have time to finish that.

Seems like instead of enjoying the PPC experience, half my time is spent on just reinstalling all apps from ROM upgrade, or reinstalling after individual app version upgrades (I blame PPCThoughts for always posting new version of this or that app every other day).

Maybe I'm just burned out...

Menneisyys
05-16-2005, 08:36 PM
I feel the pain too. As was posted recently, a new ROM upgrade from i-mate just came out for the JAM and I still haven't had time to do the upgrade and the whole application-reinstall again. What makes it the more painful, we got the JAM somewhat recently and I've just gone through the whole process of installing/configuring the apps on it.


Well, if you have some time for a little co-operation (exporting the registry before and after the upgrade) , I can help, as with any other PPC owners that wants to do the same. See http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=40152 on this.

peterg
05-16-2005, 09:19 PM
I think there is something else here that is completely being missed which is the hardware device manufacturers.

Microsoft does provide a specification of an OEM hardware device. But, given my limited knowledge, I would have to believe that if the manufacturers really wanted to design a device that would allow upgrades that would not require a hard reset, they could do it.

I would be interested in opinions if this is even a viable option.

Deus
05-16-2005, 09:58 PM
The real issue is the Microsoft consumer. Microsoft has setup a dicatorship like business. They say how it is and the consumer excepts it. Stop buying and they will get the hint.

Stop buying? What should we buy instead? Palm OS? ;)

(Symbian seems to be a much better choice than Palm OS though. The newly announced hi-end Nokia models really rock. I wish they weren't so damn expensive, even for us Europeans...)


Linux baby! ;)

Paragon
05-16-2005, 10:33 PM
Well, if you have some time for a little co-operation (exporting the registry before and after the upgrade) , I can help, as with any other PPC owners that wants to do the same. See http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=40152 on this.

You're missing the point here, Menneisyys. The idea is to make it simple to do without having to resort to extraordinary measures to get the job done. People shouldn't have to ask others to help them out, or search online forums for a consensus on what is the best method, right?

You should be commended for your offers of help, and the things you do to help others out, especially with ROM updates. 8)

Dave

gtarent
05-17-2005, 12:16 AM
I feel your pain Jason, I faced the exact same issue with the same device. I just could not bring myself to resinstall everything. I also had heard the potential issues of using a backup file overtop a new rom, but really it was a no lose situation. If the backup worked fine I saved myself mucho reinstallation time, and if I started seeing issues I simply hard reset and reinstall. Since my update and restore I have noticed no problems or quirks (on the other hand I see minimal improvements)

beq
05-17-2005, 12:44 AM
Thanks much for that very generous offer Menneisyys! I'm sure many people are grateful for all the services you perform :) I'll try to check into it too...


I feel your pain Jason, I faced the exact same issue with the same device. I just could not bring myself to resinstall everything. I also had heard the potential issues of using a backup file overtop a new rom, but really it was a no lose situation. If the backup worked fine I saved myself mucho reinstallation time, and if I started seeing issues I simply hard reset and reinstall. Since my update and restore I have noticed no problems or quirks (on the other hand I see minimal improvements)

My concern had been, what if I had installed/configured 10 apps, then performed a ROM upgrade, then restored those 10 apps from a backup. Afterwards I might not have noticed any major problems right away, and installed/configured 10 more apps (20 total). THEN after awhile I find some insurmountable problem due to having restored from an old-ROM backup. At that point I'd have to hard reset and reinstall/reconfigure 20 apps from scratch, which overall might take more time than if I had just reinstalled the original 10 apps to begin with?

Or perhaps I'd just have this nagging unease in my subconscious if I didn't do a clean reinstall (that's also why when upgrading apps I usually like to uninstall first before installing the new version -- of course that always sucks if all the settings/license info got removed with the older version of the app)... Or, maybe in my case it's partially from a little something bordering on OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder), haha just kidding :mrgreen:

Aitch
05-17-2005, 12:57 AM
I am the first person to agree with anyone who says "why cant things be made better" ..... but I have slowly come to understand the ramifications of modern capitalism and the nature of the world and we live in ......

Ultimately M$ and their merry gang dont want to release a product which is "perfect" even though they could quite easily provide it .....

They exist to make as much profit as possible (pure and simple) in fact if they could make profit without selling any software/hardware they would stop updating/upgrading/R&amp;D anything - selling stuff is only incedental to their pursuit of money ....

With the above in mind everything becomes crystal clear .....

They will quite intentionally supply flawed software/hardware knowing "most" people will quite happily keep buying their latest "less-flawed" product and be impressed with it !!

A good business keeps getting the customers to buy their product over and over again NOT just sell them one "ideal" product which will last a lifetime ....

Capitalism "forces" inefficiency and deliberate lacking in most if not all product design ..... and here endeth my sermon .... Amen

Personally though, I install most of my apps onto SD card so even after a Hard Reset it doesn't take too long to get things setup - maybe an hour at most .... but your right, its still a god damned royal pain in the ass !!!!

Johnny Bravo RJ
05-17-2005, 02:12 AM
IMHO, I think this topic should never appear highlighted at the frontpage of a PPC specialized website: once it's managed by experts, this topic should be educational and should teach people how to do a painless/flawless backup restoration, as I did on my X50v. After 10-15 minutes my Axim was up and running, with all the configs I had before. I simply used the built-in backup program to restore everything I had before the upgrade.
Why do people always tend to be alarmistic? Why such a terrorism? It's such an easy operation...
Use your built-in backup program, apply the upgrade, restore the backups and be happy!
(Hint: NEVER use ActiveSync backup for this - you won't be able to restore it after the ROM upgrade)

volwrath
05-17-2005, 02:34 AM
I went from a01 to a02 via backup/restore, did the same thing from a02 to a03. Very painless, and my device works perfectly.

mcsouth
05-17-2005, 04:26 AM
As several folks have mentioned, for many users, the PPC is a tool, not a device that they love to hack and manipulate.

Several months ago, my boss and his boss determined that they needed PPC' s in order to work with email offline while travelling, after hours, etc. I ended up buying Dell X50v's for the three of us (my boss insisted I purchase a unit for myself, which is why I am suddenly carrying two units all the time...).

As a long time PPC user, I have taken the time to upgrade to A02 and A03 respectively as they became available, partly because of problems that I was having that the ROM's specifically addressed, and partly due to problems I hoped would be fixed (but weren't). When I mentioned to my boss and his boss about these ROM updates, they were interested....until I mentioned the time to update and restore the units - they don't want to take the time to mess with the units, so they continue to live with things like the wireless being constantly turned on by accident (resolved in A02) even though a fix exists. These are typical corporate users!

Regarding Activestink - I seldom have a problem with my personal unit - it always seems to sync just fine anytime I drop it in the cradle at home. My Dell X50v, on the other hand, is downright finicky. At least once a week, I end up rebooting my laptop and/or soft-resetting the unit in order to get Activesync to hook up and actually work - otherwise, it can't seem to make a connection. My boss has also started having this problem. When he asks me what to do and I tell him, he looks at me in disbelief, and then the PPC went in the desk - "I don't have time to mess with this crap!"

Enthusiasts may be willing to live with this kind of stuff, but the corporate/enterprise users that I know are not. MS will be doing themselves a lot of harm if they can't fix some of these issues that have plagued us for years.......in that respect, WM5 doesn't go near far enough.

Menneisyys
05-17-2005, 08:00 AM
You're missing the point here, Menneisyys. The idea is to make it simple to do without having to resort to extraordinary measures to get the job done. People shouldn't have to ask others to help them out, or search online forums for a consensus on what is the best method, right?

I agree.

As a programmer &amp; hacker, though, I don't think Microsoft will change this soon (if at all) because it's not an easy task and, as we all know, MS doesn't really spend much effort on making Windows Mobile orders of magnitude better/more advanced. Therefore, what I say is 'until Microsoft implements this, let's do it ourselves' :)

I surely do understand the purpose of this thread. It's just that I don't think Microsoft considers this problem acute / would allocate resources to implement over-upgrade restore.

ipaq_wannabe
05-17-2005, 02:33 PM
I am the first person to agree with anyone who says "why cant things be made better" ..... but I have slowly come to understand the ramifications of modern capitalism and the nature of the world and we live in ......

Ultimately M$ and their merry gang dont want to release a product which is "perfect" even though they could quite easily provide it .....

They exist to make as much profit as possible (pure and simple) in fact if they could make profit without selling any software/hardware they would stop updating/upgrading/R&amp;D anything - selling stuff is only incedental to their pursuit of money ....

With the above in mind everything becomes crystal clear .....

They will quite intentionally supply flawed software/hardware knowing "most" people will quite happily keep buying their latest "less-flawed" product and be impressed with it !!

A good business keeps getting the customers to buy their product over and over again NOT just sell them one "ideal" product which will last a lifetime ....

Capitalism "forces" inefficiency and deliberate lacking in most if not all product design ..... and here endeth my sermon .... Amen

Personally though, I install most of my apps onto SD card so even after a Hard Reset it doesn't take too long to get things setup - maybe an hour at most .... but your right, its still a god damned royal pain in the a$$ !!!!

sad but true... :cry:

petvas
05-17-2005, 03:26 PM
I also believe that the current model is not good for consumers. Microsoft is treating the OEMs as the end customer and not the people that buy the actual devices...
This has been going on since the beginning of the platform but I am sure it will change in the future. Microsoft has understood its mistake and is making the necessary steps to change this situation...

Soyale
05-17-2005, 04:44 PM
Windows Mobile 5.0 has a new feature called Image Update that exists entirely to make these upgrade scenarios much easier. Essentially it allows patching of device ROM at the file level (as opposed to ROM chunks as it did previously).

Believe it or not, internal Microsoft people were hit hardest of all by reflashing with updated builds and losing apps, settings etc. Bear in mind that when we're working on a new version of software we produce a new build of software EVERY SINGLE DAY. Previously, MSFT employees dogfooding a new release e.g. Windows Mobile 2003 Second Edition would have to update the device, load apps, load settings etc each time they wanted to test a new build.

With Image Update, we have been able to maintain settings and apps all the way through the testing process and I have to say ... it's been pretty sweet. I updated my device from build 143xx to the final 14343 build losing settings and apps only a couple of times. These losses allowed us to update the Image Update components which can't be updated through Image Update yet!

Image Update is part of Windows Mobile 5.0. We're still working through who owns the updates for which part of the system but it certainly got a lot easier for both OEMs and users to deploy updates for Windows Mobile 5.0.

Paragon
05-17-2005, 05:32 PM
Image Update is part of Windows Mobile 5.0. We're still working through who owns the updates for which part of the system but it certainly got a lot easier for both OEMs and users to deploy updates for Windows Mobile 5.0.

Bingo! Thanks James.

I remember Bill Gates making mention of this in his keynote. At the time I told myself to find out more about this, since the little that was said about it, sounded much like you have just stated....then as many 50 year old minds do....I forgot about it.

This is good news!

.......I assume you have similar good news about adding WiFi syncing back into AS 4.0. ;) Sorry, I couln't resist.

Dave

andbrown
05-17-2005, 07:59 PM
With Image Update, we have been able to maintain settings and apps all the way through the testing process and I have to say ... it's been pretty sweet.

Agreed!

We definitely understand the pain of a hard reset when doing a ROM upgrade (did it last night on my JAM, as a matter of fact, so it's fresh in my mind :evil: ) and we're looking at ways to improve the process.

beq
05-17-2005, 09:24 PM
Well, I was told by jwright that i-mate has just released their own official ROM update for the PDA2k (which came on the heel of their ROM update for the JAM)!

From i-mate's site:

"The [PDA2k] 1.40 ROM build provides some significant improvements in the multimedia capability of the device including Windows Media Player 10 and further media formats available as ringtones. The build also has as new Bluetooth, WiFi and GSM radio stacks. Further GSM audio enhancements are currently under development and expected to be available on this page later in May."

So even if I was interested to try out i-mate's ROM upgrade, the part in bold above would discourage me to try now because I wouldn't want to waste days reinstalling/reconfiguring all my apps, only to have to do it again later this month??

Steve Jordan
05-21-2005, 12:32 PM
I find it helps to consider whether or not your present PPC really needs to be upgraded to do the things you need it to do. If it's already doing the job, don't upgrade now. I'm still good with WM2003, it does the job just fine, and I won't be upgrading for any new features I don't need. I've saved a lot of time, money, and headaches because of that.

And I'm looking to the future. Computer HW has reached the point where a PPC-sized device can hold an entire OS and full apps. Other OSs and apps in languages like Linux are beginning to proliferate. It should only be a matter of time until you can buy a PPC-sized device, running full Linux OS and apps if you desire, which would break the planned obsolescence back of M$ and make your life easier. That's what I'm holding out for, as long as I can.

surur
05-21-2005, 01:42 PM
It should only be a matter of time until you can buy a PPC-sized device, running full Linux OS and apps if you desire, which would break the planned obsolescence back of M$ and make your life easier. That's what I'm holding out for, as long as I can.

So whats wrong with the Zaurus?

Surur

Zman
05-21-2005, 04:22 PM
As others have probably pointed out. There absolutely NO REASON to upgrade your ROM or your device for that matter if you what you have now gets the job done effectively.

You should only upgrade your ROM and drivers if you are experiencing an EXACT problem which is identified as fixed in the ROM you're upgrading to. If you are upgrading your ROM merely for the sake of doing so you are most likely wasting your time.

Steve Jordan
05-22-2005, 12:29 AM
So whats wrong with the Zaurus?

Nothin', though it's not exactly what I'm waiting for. I'm just not ready to upgrade yet (as I said above, there's no need if there's no need).

For the record, my next PPC should be a complete touchscreen computer, running full graphics-capable apps, and that will dock into a screen/keyboard arrangement on my desktop, and otherwise stay with me, with my data and full docs, at all times. Zaurus is a "close but not quite" match with those specs, but I keep my eye on it all the time.

Neelam
05-24-2006, 10:55 AM
I am working on the image update feature of Windows Mobile for Smartphones.

I have been able to make a new package and an update package as well ( I follow steps given in the MS documentation). But when i try to apply the package, it says Package Update not Valid. From the UpdateValidator.log i cant make out the reason behind it. I get various screens in the process:

1. In the first step the Update Agent asks for the package validation. When i press ok i get screen 2.

2.The update agent asks to reboot the device for package installation. I press Update and proceed to next screen.

3.An alert saying no calls can be received during the update. I press ok and it proceeds to next n last screen i get.

4. It gives me an error, saying the package update was invalid.

and this is where the process aborts and the process finishes unsuccessful.

Do you have any clues on this?

yash_anand
06-30-2006, 07:25 PM
Hello,

The problem seems to be a little strange and there is no specifics in the Microsoft Documentation for the same. Due to the NDA I cannot disclose much but only that Image Update finally ran...whew...

But to pass the LTK Certification test the moment I add ship certificates the LTK Super package for PPC gets deleted and Update is unsuccessful and moreover the updatebin just gives me four lines of which I cannot do much in the log file.

Any frankly any pointers will be worth it and will be taken as life saving remedy.

I have checked the IMG variables and the premakeimg.bat for understanding how the gen*.dat is made but with no luck. Now our method is going towards brute force.

HELPPPPP
Thanx
regards
Yash