PIE Images look picselated/low res on VGA

[BUMP THAT]

I am on PIE right now. All the images on all sites are low res, like thumbnails and so on. How can I make the images look hi res and clear? PIE images look all fuzzy.

[ADBrown]

For reasons inexplicable to normal humans, PIE pixel-doubles all images. The only way I'm aware of to fix this is to run in forced VGA mode using a hack like OzVGA or SE_VGA.

[BUMP THAT]

Crap!! That really sucks :( Wish t didnt, I hate using that vga hack stuff. Oh well better wait for netfront to comeout. :P

[Menneisyys]

For reasons inexplicable to normal humans, PIE pixel-doubles all images.

Up to now, I've thought the same. Then, I've done some resolution tests and got pretty strange results.

If you visit the pages in Default view mode, they won't be pixelizated (there won't be pixel doubling) in SE; in Desktop view, however, it will. The results I've published at http://www.firstloox.org//forums/showpost.php?p=25808&postcount=41 (main thread: http://www.firstloox.org//forums/showthread.php?t=3365 ) clearly show this.

When the PIE browser plug-in is used from any external program (for example, a CHM reader - see for example my article on them (http://menneisyys.freeweb.hu/chm/)), however, there will ALWAYS be pixel doubling in the standard SE mode.

[Jason Dunn]

If you visit the pages in Default view mode, they won't be pixelizated (there won't be pixel doubling) in SE; in Desktop view, however, it will. The results I've published at http://www.firstloox.org//forums/showpost.php?p=25808&postcount=41 (main thread: http://www.firstloox.org//forums/showthread.php?t=3365 ) clearly show this.

I think that's a Loox-specific glitch: on my X50v graphics are pixel-doubled no matter what mode I'm in: default, desktop, or one column. I tested in both portrait and landscape, and there was no change.

[buzzard]

Just for clarification...whenever I purchase a VGA PPC I thought I would be buying a significantly improved screen (VGA vs. QVGA) while web browsing via PIE and I thought I was buying some speed (assuming X50v or 4705 over my 3835). From the topic of this thread it's beginning to sound like speed is all I'd be getting, is that true ?

[Menneisyys]

Just for clarification...whenever I purchase a VGA PPC I thought I would be buying a significantly improved screen (VGA vs. QVGA) while web browsing via PIE and I thought I was buying some speed (assuming X50v or 4705 over my 3835). From the topic of this thread it's beginning to sound like speed is all I'd be getting, is that true ?

All VGA devices have orders of magnitude better screens than the iPAQ 38xx series, not just resolution-wise. The iPAQ 38xx series has the worst color TFT screen ever built into Pocket PC PDA's.

[BUMP THAT]

I use multi IE but I dont think that is it. Man I wish I could netfront to have real VGA!! :) And have it really work. Not have hugefonts and have everyone say it really does work and it doesnt. ;)

[Menneisyys]

I use multi IE but I dont think that is it. Man I wish I could netfront to have real VGA!! :) And have it really work. Not have hugefonts and have everyone say it really does work and it doesnt. ;)

It does. You only need to do the DLL renaming hack.

[GSmith]

Try turning off ClearType.

Does that help?

Greg Smith
Author, FeederReader - The Pocket PC RSS, podcatcher, videocatcher
www.FeederReader.com - Download on the Road

[Don't Panic!]

They look okay to me,
http://www.wrrx.com/thumbs/dontpanic/screen007.jpg (http://www.wrrx.com/images/dontpanic/screen007.jpg)
how clear does it need to be?

[Menneisyys]

If you visit the pages in Default view mode, they won't be pixelizated (there won't be pixel doubling) in SE; in Desktop view, however, it will. The results I've published at http://www.firstloox.org//forums/showpost.php?p=25808&postcount=41 (main thread: http://www.firstloox.org//forums/showthread.php?t=3365 ) clearly show this.

I think that's a Loox-specific glitch: on my X50v graphics are pixel-doubled no matter what mode I'm in: default, desktop, or one column. I tested in both portrait and landscape, and there was no change.

( I've written a looooooong article in here and there was a server breakdown when I tried to POST it - everything was lost, had to rewrite it from scratch :( )

The problem is a very interesting one; therefore, I've decided to make other experiments too. I've captured several screenshots of text on screen in several resolutions to see how the image scretching / double pixeling algorithm works in PIE. I'd say it was certainly worth the effort - now, I know a lot more about how PIE works (and this info has never been published before either)!

The algorithm is pretty logical: with small images that, when pixel-doubled, will still fit in the available (horizontal) screen estate, it uses pixel doubling, while with images that are (horizontally) larger than half of the (horizontal) available screen estate for displaying images, aren't.

This distinction, however, only works in Default/One Column view; in Desktop view, pixel-doubling is always used, no matter what the original sizes are.

So, this is how the image rendering algorithm works (only for the Default/One Column view):

- when it encounters images that are thinner than half of the available screen area for HTML/image rendering (that is, in Portrait mode, thinner than about 210-220 pixels and, in Landscape mode, about 290-300 pixels), they are always pixel doubled. This means the real resolution of these images are QVGA.

- images that are fatter than the above-mentioned horizontal sizes but are still thinner than the real screen estate (two times the sizes cited above) are streched to the full size. This, of course, can result in very ugly images, especially with images containing text. (Check out the 400*400 test image below - it's streched a bit, about 10%; this is why some, once in about every ten, of its vertical pixel rows are doubled. This effect is especially visible in the screenshot below.) Now, as opposed to the first case, no pixel doubling takes place.

- images fatter than the available hor. screen estate are resized to fit in there. This is visible in the shots below too.

The test images can be found at http://menneisyys.freeweb.hu/erotuskyky .

Some screenshots in Portrait mode on my PL720:

Default/One Column view:

http://menneisyys.freeweb.hu/erotuskyky/PIEResolutionTestDefault1.jpg

http://menneisyys.freeweb.hu/erotuskyky/PIEResolutionTestDefault2.jpg

http://menneisyys.freeweb.hu/erotuskyky/PIEResolutionTestDefault3.jpg



Desktop view:



http://menneisyys.freeweb.hu/erotuskyky/PIEResolutionTestDesktop1.jpg

http://menneisyys.freeweb.hu/erotuskyky/PIEResolutionTestDesktop2.jpg

[ADBrown]

I use multi IE but I dont think that is it. Man I wish I could netfront to have real VGA!! :) And have it really work. Not have hugefonts and have everyone say it really does work and it doesnt. ;)

Netfront 3.2 has full VGA support, but it's not available in English yet. Some people have hacked the Japanese version to use English menus, though. There's also a DLL hack for the 3.1 version, but it's far from satisfactory.

[buzzard]

If those pictures are an indication of what a $500-$600 PPC can produce, I'll keep my 3835 awhile longer even if it is the worst color TFT screen on a PPC.

[Wiggster]

If those pictures are an indication of what a $500-$600 PPC can produce, I'll keep my 3835 awhile longer even if it is the worst color TFT screen on a PPC.

A lot of the problem comes from the lossy JPEG that the images were saved as. If they were saved as GIF or PNG or JPEG with less than 20% compression, you'd get a much better picture.

I'll try and remember to whip up my own pixel test to investigate this further... it's some interesting information here that Menneisyys has come up with.

[Menneisyys]

If those pictures are an indication of what a $500-$600 PPC can produce, I'll keep my 3835 awhile longer even if it is the worst color TFT screen on a PPC.

Sorry, I've noticed far too late that I left SnagIt at JPEG saving mode and didn't want to recapture my stuff into GIF's. Still, the captures have enough detail to show what is happening.

[Don't Panic!]

If those pictures are an indication of what a $500-$600 PPC can produce, I'll keep my 3835 awhile longer even if it is the worst color TFT screen on a PPC.It's actually the best Outdoor screen if that's any conolation. How did my picture look after you clicked on the thumbnail buzzard?

[Jason Dunn]

Not have hugefonts and have everyone say it really does work and it doesnt. ;)

Well to be clear, the fonts can be made smaller if you change the system font setting, and then you can make them smaller again via PIE. Text looks AMAZING on VGA devices, even when smaller. Text isn't the problem, images are.

[Jason Dunn]

( I've written a looooooong article in here and there was a server breakdown when I tried to POST it - everything was lost, had to rewrite it from scratch :( )

I'm sorry about that - it's a very good idea to copy your long post to the clipboard before hitting submit. Web servers aren't always the most stable of things. :cry:

[buzzard]

If those pictures are an indication of what a $500-$600 PPC can produce, I'll keep my 3835 awhile longer even if it is the worst color TFT screen on a PPC.It's actually the best Outdoor screen if that's any conolation. How did my picture look after you clicked on the thumbnail buzzard?

The picture looks pretty clear but it's hard to tell from the angle it's at. I believe that Jason has it right when he said (above) that text looks amazing. I prefer to use RSS feeds and PDA sized websites that don't contain pictures so I'm more interested in text than in pictures.

On the other hand, how do photographs look on the 4705 ? They're so bad on the 3835 that I don't bother with them.

[Menneisyys]

On the other hand, how do photographs look on the 4705 ? They're so bad on the 3835 that I don't bother with them.

I'd say the hx4700 (along with the Pocket Loox 720, but that's a toy mainly for Europeans - its manufacturer doesn't officially sell it in the States) has the best PPC (Palm OS devices have another king, which puts even the hx4700 scren into dust: the Clie VZ90 - see http://www.1src.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73033 on this subject) screen if you like warm, saturated colors.

Its color balance/color neutrality (that is, lack of it) and over-emphasized contrast is what you should be afraid of, however, if you go out shopping for a VGA device. You may want to read http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=35630 on this subject - I really recommend, for example, Deslock's comparative shots on the third page and decide for the PPC to go for. You may also want to have a look at my link collection at http://discussion.brighthand.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=117248 of threads that discuss the differences between the current VGA Pocket PC's.

[Menneisyys]

If those pictures are an indication of what a $500-$600 PPC can produce, I'll keep my 3835 awhile longer even if it is the worst color TFT screen on a PPC.

Sorry, I've noticed far too late that I left SnagIt at JPEG saving mode and didn't want to recapture my stuff into GIF's. Still, the captures have enough detail to show what is happening.

Article completely rewritten (with a lot of useful practical advice) and test images/screenshots changed. See http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=340214

[Don't Panic!]

If those pictures are an indication of what a $500-$600 PPC can produce, I'll keep my 3835 awhile longer even if it is the worst color TFT screen on a PPC.It's actually the best Outdoor screen if that's any conolation. How did my picture look after you clicked on the thumbnail buzzard?

The picture looks pretty clear but it's hard to tell from the angle it's at. I believe that Jason has it right when he said (above) that text looks amazing. I prefer to use RSS feeds and PDA sized websites that don't contain pictures so I'm more interested in text than in pictures.

On the other hand, how do photographs look on the 4705 ? They're so bad on the 3835 that I don't bother with them.That's actually a screen shot of PPCT taken with fullscreen activated in multiIE on a Dell Axim X50v the day we started this discussion. :lol: So as you can see I'm not experiencing this problem. Can someone point me to a mobile page that has this image issue?

[BUMP THAT]

The front page of PPCT looks pixelated on mine. I too use MultiIE,

[Menneisyys]

The front page of PPCT looks pixelated on mine. I too use MultiIE,

That's because MultiIE (or, for that matter, any of the PIE plug-ins) doesn't affect the pixel doubling mechanism of PIE. I've just posted some new example shots of this in the above-linked thread.