Why We Won't be Posting on the Next Windows Mobile Operating Systems

[Jason Dunn]

Several Web sites are abuzz with some news about the next Windows Mobile operating system, and the news submissions are starting to roll in, asking us to post about it. Unfortunately, we can't. I'm personally under an NDA with Microsoft and recently some changes have been made to the way we're allowed to talk about NDA-related information. It used to be that we were allowed to link to other Web sites that were talking about NDA information, as long as we didn't add our own comments. That's no longer the case, and as such, neither myself nor anyone on staff here at Pocket PC Thoughts will be posting information about the next Windows Mobile operating system on the front page until such time that it's public. You're free to discuss it in the forums if you wish, and you'll certainly find no shortage of other Web sites out there that are posting news about it, but we're not permitted to. As much as it pains me, in this particular case, Pocket PC Thoughts can't be your primary news source and you'll have to look elsewhere.

[OSUKid7]

So we can talk about it in the forums, it just can't be frontpaged? And can you and the other editors talk about it with us in the forums? Sounds like some back door news posting then. :| Totally understandable that Microsoft doesn't want this type of stuff publicized though.

[KH]

I understand the frustration and will really look forward to your thorough analysis as soon as the announcements are made - I tend to pass on the pre announcement guesses anyway, because the inaccuracies mixed with the 'real' information create a lot of disappointments.

[Solarix]

Hey guys,

Gotta keep Big Brother happy. And honestly I think I will prefer not to know about the new OS 'til it comes out. You always hear things before hand and either they turn out incorrect or they get removed from final production thus making me upset longing for more (cough, Longhorn, cough (I know its not out yet but still)). No harm no foul.

[lorettaboy]

Several Web sties are abuzz with some news about the next Windows Mobile operating system, and the news submissions are starting to roll in, asking us to post about it. Unfortunately, we can't. I'm personally under an NDA with Microsoft and recently some changes have been made to the way we're allowed to talk about NDA-related information. It used to be that we were allowed to link to other Web sites that were talking about NDA information, as long as we didn't add our own comments. That's no longer the case, and as such, neither myself nor anyone on staff here at Pocket PC Thoughts will be posting information about the next Windows Mobile operating system on the front page until such time that it's public. You're free to discuss it in the forums if you wish, and you'll certainly find no shortage of other Web sites out there that are posting news about it, but we're not permitted to. As much as it pains me, in this particular case, Pocket PC Thoughts can't be your primary news source and you'll have to look elsewhere.

Just an innocent question: why on earth would you sign a NDA with Microsoft in the first place?

[Jason Dunn]

Just an innocent question: why on earth would you sign a NDA with Microsoft in the first place?

We have to as part of the MVP program. No NDA, no MVP...and so far I've found that I can do more good for the platform being on the inside than being on the outisde.

[Janak Parekh]

So we can talk about it in the forums, it just can't be frontpaged? And can you and the other editors talk about it with us in the forums?
No, we can't talk about it anywhere, either on the frontpage or the forums. :( If you guys want to talk about it, go ahead. But please don't put links to copyrighted or unreleased MS code... we can't be seen as copyright infringers, and the mods will pull down those links.

--janak

[gibson042]

Well, this does sting, but I completely understand why you stick with Microsoft. I don't like their policy change, but they are still an order of magnitude better than HP as they are leaving the forums untouched. And thank you, Jason, for your continued openness. I eagerly await the day when WM2005 is announced and we can hear your Thoughts on it.

[isilver]

I have to be honest. I don't like this one bit. This is a news site and you should be able to post news as it comes in. This Microsoft agreement sounds like the news is going to be filtered.

I understand that it is just rumors that are passing around. But it's the rumors that get things done. The rumors determine what newer versions may have built into them. What other information can we expect to see filtered from this site.

This is the only real pocket-pc thought site that I used to visit to get news. I didn't even have a clue about rumors with the next Microsoft OS that is going to be released. It has really broadend my thinking and it appears I was very fullish to only have site to view the news. But who really expects a news site to limit the news.

[ricksfiona]

It's a bummer, but better to work within a group than be an outsider. If stuff can leak out of Apple, it can sure leak out of Microsoft.

[surur]

I'm sorry to say, but as readers of this site we have not seen much benefit from having the editors being MVP's. You may be on the inside, but there is very little hinting going on. It seems for cutting edge news one has to frequent outsider sources, which cant be right.

I cant think in recent times of any new devices being broken on this site first, which is a real pity, as I visit it frequently per day.

Surur

[darrylb]

I'm sorry to say, but as readers of this site we have not seen much benefit from having the editors being MVP's. You may be on the inside, but there is very little hinting going on. It seems for cutting edge news one has to frequent outsider sources, which cant be right.

I cant think in recent times of any new devices being broken on this site first, which is a real pity, as I visit it frequently per day.

Surur

I disagree, I normally hear about new devices here, even in recent times. The way this site seems to work (and I'm commenting from the outside as I dont contribute here) is that it is a centralised source of news and views specifically revolving around the Pocket PC platform.

In this case, it's going to miss out on centralising news related to one release (albeit a big one). Look somewhere else for this news...

At the end of the day - as a reader what do you want - reliable reporting by people trusted by the industry or rumour mongering as is done by some of the (lesser in my opinion) sites? I think obtaining the industry trust should end up counting for more than the rumour mongering.

[surur]

I like rumours ;) Once its confirmed its not news anymore.

Surur

[IpaqMan2]

I'm sorry to say, but as readers of this site we have not seen much benefit from having the editors being MVP's. You may be on the inside, but there is very little hinting going on. It seems for cutting edge news one has to frequent outsider sources, which cant be right.

I cant think in recent times of any new devices being broken on this site first, which is a real pity, as I visit it frequently per day.

Surur

I disagree, I normally hear about new devices here, even in recent times. The way this site seems to work (and I'm commenting from the outside as I dont contribute here) is that it is a centralised source of news and views specifically revolving around the Pocket PC platform.

In this case, it's going to miss out on centralising news related to one release (albeit a big one). Look somewhere else for this news...

At the end of the day - as a reader what do you want - reliable reporting by people trusted by the industry or rumour mongering as is done by some of the (lesser in my opinion) sites? I think obtaining the industry trust should end up counting for more than the rumour mongering.

I have to disagree here. Coming to this site I hear about new things happening as average or even less than average than I do from any other news PDA / Pocket PC site, some times even days later. Of course this in no way is to say Pocket Pc thoughts is a bad site, it's just not the place I go to hear about cutting edge information, for that I must search else where and unfortunately there are few sites with the passion of PPCs which this site has. Personally I don't mind the rumors, as many of them that do circulate have a speck of truth if not more to them and I'd rather make my opinion as to what is really going on than to be denied even hearing about the possibility of what's going on. Personally I have made many decisions of PDAs I purchased based on the rumors I heard, and found that most of them were accurate.

Anyway, to side step this: What exactly does the MVP do for this site? Just wondering.. Personally I think it's more of a personal decision and could prevent individuals from being able to write what they may want... But again.. just my own thoughts.

[IpaqMan2]

I like rumours ;) Once its confirmed its not news anymore.

Surur

Nice way of looking at it. I suppose if all the newspapers waited to confirm information before reporting it, than I suspect they would be called daily encyclopedias not newspapers.

[ikesler]

Thanks for the honesty a head of time! :D

[JvanEkris]

Anyway, to side step this: What exactly does the MVP do for this site? Just wondering.. Personally I think it's more of a personal decision and could prevent individuals from being able to write what they may want... But again.. just my own thoughts.MVP's are close to Microsoft. We help Microsoft make decissions for future products. Personally, i see this as a way of being more productive in providing a community what they need. As a normal site you can shout and publish about problems in the current devices, hoping that Microsoft will hear you and act upon it. An MVP is there when the decissions are made, directly influencing the product in development: an MVP is sure he has the ears of the product team at the right moment.

This increases the effectiveness of these but it does come with a price: things that are discussed with Microsoft may not be spoken about. It could seriously harm Microsofts interests if details of future development became public knowledge before official presentation. THat's why the NDA is there.....

Jaap

[PR.]

Well if this news post has appeared I presume there is something worth posting about floating around the net, so what is it?! :D

[hamishmacdonald]

I don't know that the leaked item is "something worth posting about". It's a ROM image from what looks like a Pocket PC Phone running Magneto (WM2005) and using ActiveSync 4. Everyone in the forum was bending over backwards to help extract the ROM, and I daresay the files are floating around out there if you want them. I just don't see how they're much good to anyone: It's like someone slipping you a manilla envelope with two broken eggs, some cake mix, and some milk in it: Hardly a birthday cake.

It's all theoretically interesting to me, but at the end of the day, I love the capability that my Pocket PC gives me, so there's no way I'm going to load some wonky ROM from an unstable device with different hardware specs just to have the latest, latest OS: "Wow! A new system setting for button-lock!" Well, my MyPal already has its own version of that and most of the other features, and getting the version from the leaked ROM would likely turn my PDA into a brick, or at least cost me the everyday functionality of the device that I rely on.

I don't think the MVPs are sell-outs. They're being proactive members of the Windows Mobile development community, rather than just commentators. We all get arsey with people on the boards who ask for 'W4R3Z' and serial numbers because we know the harm that happens to the community when we share them. This is just an extension of that principle.

[surur]

A rom for the XDA 2i and Jam has leaked, based on Magneto. The main feature I gleaned so far is that is that the Filestores will turn into the My Device root, RAM will be ram, and running out of battery will not hard reset your device. It will only work with the Activesync 4.0.

At least this info has now been confirmed in a real device, you could confirm it yourself and its no longer rumour.

Surur

[tsaxton]

The main feature I gleaned so far is that is that the Filestores will turn into the My Device root, RAM will be ram, and running out of battery will not hard reset your device. It will only work with the Activesync 4.0.

If that is the case, then I would guess that devices with a small filestore (e.g. ipaq 6365, which has around 20MB) won't get an upgrade, but perhaps the devices that have been particularly designed to have more filestore than RAM (e.g. ipaq 4700) have been designed with a possible upgrade in mind...

6500 and 6700 series are rumoured to have 64MB RAM + 64MB ROM...

[surur]

MVP's are close to Microsoft. We help Microsoft make decissions for future products.
.
This increases the effectiveness of these but it does come with a price:
Jaap
This is true in theory, but I've seen many posts by MVP's decrying how MS never listens to them. I wonder if there is any feature in Wm2003SE which you could say was driven by MVP feedback.

Surur

[Andy Whiteford]

I completely understand the need and stance with the NDA here are PPCT and do support it however regardless I think these rumours are still important. If I hadn't heard about WM2005, I would have upgraded my h4150 to a WM2003SE device a long time ago. I'm happy to wait given what will be available in the future.

[JvanEkris]

MVP's are close to Microsoft. We help Microsoft make decissions for future products.
.
This increases the effectiveness of these but it does come with a price:
Jaap
This is true in theory, but I've seen many posts by MVP's decrying how MS never listens to them. I wonder if there is any feature in Wm2003SE which you could say was driven by MVP feedback.

SururWell,

All is relative off course. I do have the impression they listen to MVP's. If Microsoft acts upon it is a totally different matter. I mean some remarks by MVP's can be ignored because of technical reasons, a clash with the design philosophy or a missing sponsor. But they at least given it a thought by the design team. As a normal website you might be lucky if any Microsoft employee ever looks to see if there are any comments........

Jaap

[ctitanic]

Just an innocent question: why on earth would you sign a NDA with Microsoft in the first place?

We have to as part of the MVP program. No NDA, no MVP...and so far I've found that I can do more good for the platform being on the inside than being on the outisde.

And don´t you think that MS is asking too much from you guys? I´m sure that many here in USA never would accept these conditions that are over the barrier of what here many call freedom of expression.

I can live with the fact that you can´t talk about it but from that to moderate the forum deleting links and comments from people talking about the information that they have seen in other sites or in events where MS has shown part of the system. Come on! That´s really too much.

[ctitanic]

I'm sorry to say, but as readers of this site we have not seen much benefit from having the editors being MVP's. You may be on the inside, but there is very little hinting going on. It seems for cutting edge news one has to frequent outsider sources, which cant be right.

I cant think in recent times of any new devices being broken on this site first, which is a real pity, as I visit it frequently per day.

Surur

I disagree, I normally hear about new devices here, even in recent times. The way this site seems to work (and I'm commenting from the outside as I dont contribute here) is that it is a centralised source of news and views specifically revolving around the Pocket PC platform.

In this case, it's going to miss out on centralising news related to one release (albeit a big one). Look somewhere else for this news...

At the end of the day - as a reader what do you want - reliable reporting by people trusted by the industry or rumour mongering as is done by some of the (lesser in my opinion) sites? I think obtaining the industry trust should end up counting for more than the rumour mongering.

Well, I disagree with you. As far as I can recall 99% of times all rumors that I have read about new devices and new OSs have been confirmed at the end. At least those published in the sites that I use to check everyday.

To me a news editor in our site is like a journalist for a news paper. Nothing is better than to be the first publishing a news and that´s what people like most. If a journalist have to wait for the OK of a big company to publish what already have been published in everywhere he is missing part (a big part) of the audience.

[Ed Hansberry]

MVP's are close to Microsoft. We help Microsoft make decissions for future products.
.
This increases the effectiveness of these but it does come with a price:
Jaap
This is true in theory, but I've seen many posts by MVP's decrying how MS never listens to them. I wonder if there is any feature in Wm2003SE which you could say was driven by MVP feedback.
MS always listens, at least the mobile device group does. They often answer "no" but they also answer "yes." The Mobile Device group isn't dumb. Rarely does an MVP come up with somethign they haven't thought of. More often, we bring it up, talk about scenarios and a feature they had thought of but not given much consideration gets bumped way up the list.

[Ed Hansberry]

And don´t you think that MS is asking too much from you guys? I´m sure that many here in USA never would accept these conditions that are over the barrier of what here many call freedom of expression.
No. If we did, we'd simply quit. Freedom of speech is not absolute. If I sign an NDA, do I not have to keep the info confidential? If you are releasing a new product you want kept secret and gather up some beta testers and ask for confidentialty, are you going to be ok if they all blab and claim "freedom of speech?" No, of course not. The first amendment doesn't supercede a legal contract.

With freedom comes responsibility. I wish people wouldn't misrepresent what the first amendment is about.

[gorkon280]

I frankly don't see how being a MVP is more valuable to the community here and here's why:

How many times have we bitched, moaned and screamed that Activesync is a steaming pile of goo?

How many of us have alarms working reliably on all devices?

How many of us had been jilted by the OEM's?

I know you probably can't say, but most of these have been problems for at least a year if not longer. I know Jason's been a MVP for a long time now....at least as long as some of these problems....and they are STILL not being fixed. Activesync still has issues. Alarms on some devices still go un fixed. And the OEM thing......boy don't get me started there. Microsoft made it a requirement that they have flashroms but noone really uses them. We'd almost have been better off sticking to the cheaper EPROMS because almost noone has been releasing upgrades for devices that are only a year old or less. Do we really think T-Mobile and HP are going to fix the 6315? MVP's can scream all they want, but if Microsoft does not listen to them, then it's a waste for both the community and for us because now we can't get any news regarding the new stuff til it's already old (and because of the NDA). I would understand it if what Microsoft was doing was bring something really new and really kick ass, but let's be honest, when's the last time a new Microsoft release has been about innovation? Microsoft wasn't the one who started the whole integrated WiFi deal, that was Toshiba. It was only after Toshiba came out with the e740 that everyone else started looking at it and Microsoft then added the abysmal WiFi software at least that's the way I think it happened.

Bring us news. To heck with being a MVP. It brings us ZIP....unless all of a sudden Magneto fixes these issues.

[ctitanic]

And don´t you think that MS is asking too much from you guys? I´m sure that many here in USA never would accept these conditions that are over the barrier of what here many call freedom of expression.
No. If we did, we'd simply quit. Freedom of speech is not absolute. If I sign an NDA, do I not have to keep the info confidential? If you are releasing a new product you want kept secret and gather up some beta testers and ask for confidentialty, are you going to be ok if they all blab and claim "freedom of speech?" No, of course not. The first amendment doesn't supercede a legal contract.

With freedom comes responsibility. I wish people wouldn't misrepresent what the first amendment is about.

I was talkning about you coming here and deleting from this forum what I said or other said about a news that we have read in another site and that falls within thoses things that you can´t talk about. That´s the part I see that goes over the freedom of speesh (I´m not talking about anything that have been stolen, I´m talking about pictures that somebody took from a machine shown in an event, for example, or screen shots taken from a machine shown in an event).

[ctitanic]

Don´t get me wrong Ed and Jason. This is your house and you are the masters. I'm just a guest commenting about something that you have written in this forum, and I believe that forum are for that, to comment.

[gorkon280]

And don´t you think that MS is asking too much from you guys? I´m sure that many here in USA never would accept these conditions that are over the barrier of what here many call freedom of expression.
No. If we did, we'd simply quit. Freedom of speech is not absolute. If I sign an NDA, do I not have to keep the info confidential? If you are releasing a new product you want kept secret and gather up some beta testers and ask for confidentialty, are you going to be ok if they all blab and claim "freedom of speech?" No, of course not. The first amendment doesn't supercede a legal contract.

With freedom comes responsibility. I wish people wouldn't misrepresent what the first amendment is about.

I agree...with freedom comes responsibility and the fact that most of the editors and Jason himself have signed NDA's, well, then your obligated to follow that.

If I personally ran a news site, I would not sign a NDA. The only reason they exist it to "protect" the stock price and sales. NDA's KILL innovation as well as competition. My news site may not be very good then maybe, but I happen to also agree against the current Apple suit and here's why....if the guy who shares the news heard it from someone under a NDA, then how can he be held liable?? He didn't break the NDA, his friend did. If I was confronted by Microsoft legal about something on my site, I would simply say where I heard it from. By that time, the news would be out anyway. Sure, I would take it down, but the damage has been done. I may not have a friend either any more either, but well, sometimes journalists do things like that....not saying I would peronally do that, but I would not cripple my news gathering ability by signing a restrictve NDA.

Also, as MVP's, we can't really rely on news being un biased here now because Microsoft is giving preferential treatment so long as you don't tell. They say: oh yeah we got this new stuff we want to tell ya about but your not allowed to say anything....wink wink nudge nudge. All of a sudden, everything is decidedly pro Microsoft 100 percent and there's no criticism of anything they are doing. That is bias. That is what everyone accuses Fox News of doing. While there is no 100 percent way to stay completely unbiased (anyone who says they are are full of it), there definitely ways to show your NOT just a Microsoft shill. Not that I have seen that here, but I have not seen alot fo stories banging on Microsoft as of late.

Anyway, I understand why that decision has been made Jason. I just hope that I find a reason to keep coming back here.

[gorkon280]

The Mobile Device group isn't dumb.

You sure about that?? The dumbest thing I STILL see being perpetuated is the X not being a true close. It's contrary to the way Windows works and whatever is supposed auto clsoe the apps has not worked right since day one. If Magneto fixes this, then, I will agree with you that they are not dumb....they are just SLOW.

[Jonathon Watkins]

I can live with the fact that you can´t talk about it but from that to moderate the forum deleting links and comments from people talking about the information that they have seen in other sites or in events where MS has shown part of the system. Come on! That´s really too much.

Umm, where are you gettin that from???? Jason did not say that. Read this bit again:

You're free to discuss it in the forums if you wish, and you'll certainly find no shortage of other Web sites out there that are posting news about it, but we're not permitted to

[Jonathon Watkins]

The Mobile Device group isn't dumb.

You sure about that?? The dumbest thing I STILL see being perpetuated is the X not being a true close. It's contrary to the way Windows works and whatever is supposed auto clsoe the apps has not worked right since day one. If Magneto fixes this, then, I will agree with you that they are not dumb....they are just SLOW.

No - that is a deliberate design choice. I can see why they did it and it's a judgement call. I may not agree with it, but it is certainly not dumb. You are being excessively rude here Gorkon280. :?

[ctitanic]

I can live with the fact that you can´t talk about it but from that to moderate the forum deleting links and comments from people talking about the information that they have seen in other sites or in events where MS has shown part of the system. Come on! That´s really too much.

Umm, where are you gettin that from???? Jason did not say that. Read this bit again:



from here


No, we can't talk about it anywhere, either on the frontpage or the forums. :( If you guys want to talk about it, go ahead. But please don't put links to copyrighted or unreleased MS code... we can't be seen as copyright infringers, and the mods will pull down those links.

--janak

I don't understand exactly what Janak means but I'm afraid that if I post a link to a site that still have the screen shots of magneto published, my post is going to be deleted. Is not that what he ment?

[marlof]

ctitanic: janak is talking about links to code. you'd be mighty pleased if Thoughts took down links to pirated version of your software. microsoft is no different than you.

[ppc_kiwi]

I feel sorry for you guys cought in between. I know you wish you could talk about it but could not because of the NDA. Anyway, I don't understand why MS would not allow it's product to be discussed. They don't have any competition regarding ppc OS. Maybe they want it's OS out first for people to buy and then fix any bugs or upgrade later for another price $$.

Anyway, we dicuss products so that any shorcomings either truth or rumor will hopefully be heard/addressed by the vendor.

[ctitanic]

ctitanic: janak is talking about links to code. you'd be mighty pleased if Thoughts took down links to pirated version of your software. microsoft is no different than you.
Marlof this is why I asked for clarification. So far the only information that I have seen have been screen shots that were asked to be pulled down by the same Microsoft.
I don´t know of any code and of course if a code that belong to MS is published I´m going to be the first to ask in here to delete that information. To me that´s unclear. But still unclear what can be posted here relative to MS. Going back to the picture case, is that acceptable?

[ctitanic]

and i have the same possition if... a beta rom has been released in the web. Of course I´m again that kind of information been posted here.

[minidba]

I feel sorry for you guys cought in between. I know you wish you could talk about it but could not because of the NDA. Anyway, I don't understand why MS would not allow it's product to be discussed. They don't have any competition regarding ppc OS. Maybe they want it's OS out first for people to buy and then fix any bugs or upgrade later for another price $$.

Anyway, we dicuss products so that any shorcomings either truth or rumor will hopefully be heard/addressed by the vendor.

Here's a thought on why Microsoft might be trying to keep people from discussing their product: If there are new features they are trying to introduce, and third-party developers learn of them, some will most likely try to develop applications that duplicate the new features on the existing devices. This might be good for the consumers, since they can get the new features sooner, but from Microsoft's point of view, someone else is capitalizing on their ideas. This would hurt the sale of new devices with the new operating system. Also, if they decided not to include features in the final version that appeared in earlier, unreleased code, they will get slammed for taking it out and delivering a crippled product.

I don't necessarily like it, but this is the way many corporations work, and Microsoft is exceedingly good at this game.

[Ed Hansberry]

I frankly don't see how being a MVP is more valuable to the community here and here's why:

How many times have we bitched, moaned and screamed that Activesync is a steaming pile of goo?

How many of us have alarms working reliably on all devices?

How many of us had been jilted by the OEM's?
I think you misunderstand what an MVP does. We support the community, period. That's it. It isn't even our job. It is our hobby and passion. I was awarded MVP status in October 2004 for my Oct 2003-Sep 2004 performance in that role. As of Oct 1, 2004, I can sit on my butt and do nothing. It is an award for past performance, not future efforts.

Being an MVP gives me some access to confidential information at MS that can help in support roles. I've worked directly with individuals at MS to solve a number of sticky issues and have even written a few KB articles - http://support.microsoft.com/?id=555011 and http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?id=555061

You can read more about it at http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/MVPINTRO - no where does it state that we are key players in product design, feature creation or anything else.

We have the ability to report bugs to MS and if they are repeatable, there is a good chance they will be resolved in the next AKU. Now, whether OEMs release that is another matter and honestly, MS has little control over that. Witness that today most still don't have WMP10. You think MS is happy abou that?

Everyone knows the problems with AS 3.x. MS has known for years. It is a USB connection written on top of a RAS connection made for serial ports that dates back to Windows CE Services and to some extent, HPC Explorer before that. To do it right and maintian significant backwards compatiblity is a big task, and one that is hard to do when the OS keeps changing every 12-18 months. Screaming about it louder isn't going to fix it. I'm not happy about the multi-year wait for it anymore than anyone else is, but that has NO bearing on whether or not I am an MVP.

[Ed Hansberry]

I was talkning about you coming here and deleting from this forum what I said or other said about a news that we have read in another site and that falls within thoses things that you can´t talk about. That´s the part I see that goes over the freedom of speesh (I´m not talking about anything that have been stolen, I´m talking about pictures that somebody took from a machine shown in an event, for example, or screen shots taken from a machine shown in an event).
Your right to freedom of speech stops at my doorstop, or in this case, Jason's doorstop. This is Jason's property. Period. You have the right to say what you want, but not on my property. If you don't like that, you are allowed to set up your own bully pulpit. That is what freedom of speech is about. :way to go:

[WyattEarp]

The NDA to me is perfectly understandable. No company wants leaked information from their meetings, R&D teams, etc. all over the place before they want it to. It's just bad business because people will sit and wait for your new product instead of buying what is current, others companys will try to copyright, trademark and product your ideas before you even finish or someone will even lay claim that you stole their idea even though they never even planned on using it and you never even heard of them. Look at Apple they are going after someone who didn't just post information but confidential information that was probably from someone under an NDA and I don't really blame them. What they are producing has competion and now others will scury to take advantage of that leaked info to create the same product claiming they were their first. The apple iPOD is probably the best DMP in production but that may not have happened if everyone knew what Apple was up to before they even had a mock up device and software to test.

So the only bad side to all this is that PPCT won't be the first to publish any WM2005 reports or rumors. So what, there are lots of other places to to fill the rumor mill anyway. And if Jason & Co. weren't MVPs then they wouldn't get any information to share to begin with. So I'd hope they could always let us know if we are on the right track when discussing WM2005 and any future updates without actually discussing it :wink: .

[Andy Whiteford]

The NDA to me is perfectly understandable. No company wants leaked information from their meetings, R&D teams, etc. all over the place before they want it to. It's just bad business because people will sit and wait for your new product instead of buying what is current, others companys will try to copyright, trademark and product your ideas before you even finish or someone will even lay claim that you stole their idea even though they never even planned on using it and you never even heard of them. Look at Apple they are going after someone who didn't just post information but confidential information that was probably from someone under an NDA and I don't really blame them. What they are producing has competion and now others will scury to take advantage of that leaked info to create the same product claiming they were their first. The apple iPOD is probably the best DMP in production but that may not have happened if everyone knew what Apple was up to before they even had a mock up device and software to test.

So the only bad side to all this is that PPCT won't be the first to publish any WM2005 reports or rumors. So what, there are lots of other places to to fill the rumor mill anyway. And if Jason & Co. weren't MVPs then they wouldn't get any information to share to begin with. So I'd hope they could always let us know if we are on the right track when discussing WM2005 and any future updates without actually discussing it :wink: .


A truly sensible post.

[ctitanic]

I was talkning about you coming here and deleting from this forum what I said or other said about a news that we have read in another site and that falls within thoses things that you can´t talk about. That´s the part I see that goes over the freedom of speech (I´m not talking about anything that have been stolen, I´m talking about pictures that somebody took from a machine shown in an event, for example, or screen shots taken from a machine shown in an event).
Your right to freedom of speech stops at my doorstop, or in this case, Jason's doorstop. This is Jason's property. Period. You have the right to say what you want, but not on my property. If you don't like that, you are allowed to set up your own bully pulpit. That is what freedom of speech is about. :way to go:

Ed, that´s clear to me. In every house the owner has it owns rules, today Jason have talken about some changes in those rules and all I wanted is to be clear about those changes, what CAN BE and what CAN´T BE posted here. You can be sure that I´m not one of those who like to brake the rules of anybody´s home. I have my own home and my own rules so if I need to post anything that is not allowed here or in any other place I have where to post it. I repeat. I just want all the situation clear. That will avoid mistakes in the future.

[ctitanic]

I apologize if my post about freedom of speech could seem slightly aggressive perhaps. I was not my intention.

[Ed Hansberry]

I just want all the situation clear. That will avoid mistakes in the future.Cool. I think that was all Jason was trying to do. :mrgreen:

[gorkon280]

We have the ability to report bugs to MS


As do us users. But I am just getting frustrated with them not listening to us or you, a MVP. From what I have seen, you and many others who are MVP's have reported this issue many many times and yet it remains still needing to be fixed.

At some point, all programs reach a point where they just seem to be unworkable and the only way to fix it is do it right from the beginning. I would volunteer space in RAM on my 4355 to install a new version of Activesync that did not have this USB connection written on top of a RAS connection stuff in it. I would gladly give up the RAM space for this as would many if it meant my sync would not have these weird problems every once in a while. That would be a fix for those devices that do not get ROM updates. New devices can include the new software in ROM. It's not hard. I don't see or hear Palm people have the problems syncing either so it can be done right granted I would not leave the Pocket PC for Palm right now...if I did leave the platform, it would be for either Symbian, Linux or if Apple came out with a platform...

[Jason Dunn]

What other information can we expect to see filtered from this site.

Nothing. We're under no other NDAs with any other company or OEM. You should keep in mind that several other Web sites are under NDA with HP, who not only restricts front page news, but also demands that the Webmaster censor community posts by deleting any mention of unreleased products. We said no to that NDA because it crossed the line.

[ctitanic]

What other information can we expect to see filtered from this site.

Nothing. We're under no other NDAs with any other company or OEM. You should keep in mind that several other Web sites are under NDA with HP, who not only restricts front page news, but also demands that the Webmaster censor community posts by deleting any mention of unreleased products. We said no to that NDA because it crossed the line.

don't you think that Microsoft crossed the line demanding not to post information about other sites publishing news that are part of your NDA?
Again... Just a question.

[surur]

So the only bad side to all this is that PPCT won't be the first to publish any WM2005 reports or rumors. So what, there are lots of other places to to fill the rumor mill anyway. And if Jason & Co. weren't MVPs then they wouldn't get any information to share to begin with. So I'd hope they could always let us know if we are on the right track when discussing WM2005 and any future updates without actually discussing it :wink: .

The point is that Jason and co have been incredibly tight with information, never hinting at all or "letting us know when we are on the right track". Even if they got information via other channels the dare not share it due to their MVP obligations.

So yes, one would hope there would be some titbits of info from those in the know, but in real life this has not happened. So no real benifit to US from the editors being MVP's. Of course as a very prominent and important evangalist of the PPC platform Jason does deserve the recognition and insider status. Just dont expect any benifit to the readers of the website, and even some disadvantages due to lack of responsiveness due to other obligations. Which sucks.

Surur

[Rob Borek]

I frankly don't see how being a MVP is more valuable to the community here and here's why:

How many times have we bitched, moaned and screamed that Activesync is a steaming pile of goo?

How many of us have alarms working reliably on all devices?

How many of us had been jilted by the OEM's?

I know you probably can't say, but most of these have been problems for at least a year if not longer. I know Jason's been a MVP for a long time now....at least as long as some of these problems....and they are STILL not being fixed. Activesync still has issues. Alarms on some devices still go un fixed. And the OEM thing......boy don't get me started there. Microsoft made it a requirement that they have flashroms but noone really uses them. We'd almost have been better off sticking to the cheaper EPROMS because almost noone has been releasing upgrades for devices that are only a year old or less. Do we really think T-Mobile and HP are going to fix the 6315? MVP's can scream all they want, but if Microsoft does not listen to them, then it's a waste for both the community and for us because now we can't get any news regarding the new stuff til it's already old (and because of the NDA). I would understand it if what Microsoft was doing was bring something really new and really kick a$$, but let's be honest, when's the last time a new Microsoft release has been about innovation? Microsoft wasn't the one who started the whole integrated WiFi deal, that was Toshiba. It was only after Toshiba came out with the e740 that everyone else started looking at it and Microsoft then added the abysmal WiFi software at least that's the way I think it happened.

Bring us news. To heck with being a MVP. It brings us ZIP....unless all of a sudden Magneto fixes these issues.

You only see one side of the equation - there are many discussions that go on OUTSIDE these forums that occur directly with Microsoft. We provide information and scenarios on possible bugs to try and replicate the problem and by doing so find a solution. Some solutions are NOT easy, for various reasons.

Also: Microsoft cannot control the OEMs beyond what is in the OEM agreements (which themselves are confidential). Microsoft cannot force OEMs to make upgrades available. They cannot force OEMs to include WiFi or any other technology.

In all the years I've been an MVP (2000 'til now with a 6 month break), I have never felt that Microsoft never listened or never tried to resolve problems. They may say "no", but that's not the same as not listening.

[Jason Dunn]

I can live with the fact that you can´t talk about it but from that to moderate the forum deleting links and comments from people talking about the information that they have seen in other sites or in events where MS has shown part of the system. Come on! That´s really too much.

When have we done that? The only instance I can think of is a few months back we posted on an NDA-related issue, some people commented on it, then Microsoft asked us to remove the whole thing - which we did. So, yes, technically we did delete some posts, but only in relation to our original post. I didn't like having to do it, but I didn't feel like going to war over the issue.

[Jon Westfall]

So the only bad side to all this is that PPCT won't be the first to publish any WM2005 reports or rumors. So what, there are lots of other places to to fill the rumor mill anyway. And if Jason & Co. weren't MVPs then they wouldn't get any information to share to begin with. So I'd hope they could always let us know if we are on the right track when discussing WM2005 and any future updates without actually discussing it :wink: .

The point is that Jason and co have been incredibly tight with information, never hinting at all or "letting us know when we are on the right track". Even if they got information via other channels the dare not share it due to their MVP obligations.

So yes, one would hope there would be some titbits of info from those in the know, but in real life this has not happened. So no real benifit to US from the editors being MVP's. Of course as a very prominent and important evangalist of the PPC platform Jason does deserve the recognition and insider status. Just dont expect any benifit to the readers of the website, and even some disadvantages due to lack of responsiveness due to other obligations. Which sucks.

Surur

The benefit to the readers is very simple:

John Doe posts in the forums that he's having an issue with some part of windows mobile. Multiple others report that they also have had the issue. One of the MVPs on staff submits it as a bug to Microsoft, thus giving it a boost in importance to the mobile devices development staff, speeding up the time it takes for an official fix.

That is one nice benefit - one that I think I'd prefer more than the editors posting information that can be / is blatently wrong. I'd also prefer it over the editors "hinting" or dropping a few pieces of information here and there and risking the future of the site.

Just my opinion...

[ctitanic]

I can live with the fact that you can´t talk about it but from that to moderate the forum deleting links and comments from people talking about the information that they have seen in other sites or in events where MS has shown part of the system. Come on! That´s really too much.

When have we done that? The only instance I can think of is a few months back we posted on an NDA-related issue, some people commented on it, then Microsoft asked us to remove the whole thing - which we did. So, yes, technically we did delete some posts, but only in relation to our original post. I didn't like having to do it, but I didn't feel like going to war over the issue.

I realy don't like the NDAs with MS, I wont hide that fact. To me it's against what people like you and me are doing in our sites where we are essentially journalists. In another hand I understand that to make the platform stronger we need to sit with MS in a dialog so it's very hard to choose in what way to go being in your possition. I'm really afraid of being in any NDA with MS or any other company because once you are in I believe that they will change the NDA making it more incopatible each time with this kind of sites.

[Jason Dunn]

And don´t you think that MS is asking too much from you guys? I´m sure that many here in USA never would accept these conditions that are over the barrier of what here many call freedom of expression.

Freedom of expression has nothing to do with it - I signed the NDA, and I'm bound to abide by it. If I didn't want to join the MVP program, I wouldn't have signed the NDA. I've been an MVP since 1997, and while it has had it's ups and downs, I believe I've been able to help the Windows Mobile platform more than if I were an outsider.

Do I wish things were different? Yes, very much so. But I can't change them, so I have to deal with what I've been told the best way I know how. That means being honest and open with the readers of this site.

I also need to point out that we're NOT under NDA with any Pocket PC OEMs, which is why we're posted every HP, Dell, HTC, and Toshiba bits of news that we could find. This post ONLY applies to Microsoft operating system-related issues.

[Paragon]

don't you think that Microsoft crossed the line demanding not to post information about other sites publishing news that are part of your NDA?
Again... Just a question.

Not at all, ctitanic, and here is why, and I think if you look at it realistically you will agree. First, if you were under an obligation of some kind to help someone build a dam and it started springing leaks, you could do one of three things, ignore it, help fix the leaks, or you could take the attitude that there are already leaks so I think I will add to them. By posting anything on Microsoft leaks is no different. What kind of working relationship would you be building?

Secondly, one thing that many MVPs do is lobby for more info. This will never happen if those same people are near the head of the line to post leaks. The biggest block to getting more info is security. Given that, who are you going to grant more access too, those who can live up to their agreements, or those who are going to skirt them at every opportunity?

Dave

[Jason Dunn]

To me a news editor in our site is like a journalist for a news paper. Nothing is better than to be the first publishing a news and that´s what people like most. If a journalist have to wait for the OK of a big company to publish what already have been published in everywhere he is missing part (a big part) of the audience.

Frank, have you been watching what's been happening with ThinkSecret and the other companies that Apple is taking to court and suing for breech of trade secrets? Things aren't so simple anymore - it seems that Web journalism is considered different than paper journalism, and in fact Microsoft used the "trade secrets" approach with the last outbreak of NDA material. So it seems that things aren't as simple as they used to be...

[Jason Dunn]

Don´t get me wrong Ed and Jason. This is your house and you are the masters. I'm just a guest commenting about something that you have written in this forum, and I believe that forum are for that, to comment.

It's ok - I welcome everyone to expresss their opinion on the matter. That's why I started the thread, so that people could discuss the issue.

[ctitanic]

To me a news editor in our site is like a journalist for a news paper. Nothing is better than to be the first publishing a news and that´s what people like most. If a journalist have to wait for the OK of a big company to publish what already have been published in everywhere he is missing part (a big part) of the audience.

Frank, have you been watching what's been happening with ThinkSecret and the other companies that Apple is taking to court and suing for breech of trade secrets? Things aren't so simple anymore - it seems that Web journalism is considered different than paper journalism, and in fact Microsoft used the "trade secrets" approach with the last outbreak of NDA material. So it seems that things aren't as simple as they used to be...

I'm glad you are pointing to ThinkSecret, because from my first post I was thinking about them. This is why I asked you if you don't think that is MS putting more restrictions to sites like this after the Apple incident.

To me our journalims is the same than the paper one and I'm keeping the eyes open toward ThinkSecret because that will mark the future of all of us. I believe that the ThinkSecret case is not over yet. At least I have not read any more news about it and the last one was that they were going appeal.

[surur]

In all the years I've been an MVP (2000 'til now with a 6 month break), I have never felt that Microsoft never listened or never tried to resolve problems. They may say "no", but that's not the same as not listening.

> I'll concede that perhaps *SOME* MVPs were "fighting" with
> Microsoft on this - but then again, perhaps Microsoft
> couldn't have done anything about it (since Compaq is
> supposed to build the ROM.) However, a couple of "MVPs"
> stated - when I first began this fight - that those
> apps "...didn't even exist for upgrades", and only after I
> continued to argue the point, did they say there were
> betas of it and it "might" be released someday. I won't
> start on THAT again, but I'd like to address one point:
> the ROM size of the "full" PPC2002 image.


Some? We all wanted to see the RAM installs for the upgrades. The ROM
versions were standardized; the 16MB ROM version was not designed to hold
certain programs by Microsoft, not by Compaq. We were all pretty surprised
when MS didn't have MSN Messenger and the TSC out for the release of the
Compaq ROM upgrades. We can only beg, plead, and request stuff from
Microsoft; we can't demand something.
Rob Borek
CCNA, MCP, Microsoft MVP - Mobile Devices

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/microsoft.public.pocketpc/browse_thread/thread/6e005d703b7b1576/5f3c8f31296b38b8?q=see+ms+does+listen#5f3c8f31296b38b8

If MS does not respond, how do you know they are really listening?

Surur

[Rob Borek]

In all the years I've been an MVP (2000 'til now with a 6 month break), I have never felt that Microsoft never listened or never tried to resolve problems. They may say "no", but that's not the same as not listening.

> I'll concede that perhaps *SOME* MVPs were "fighting" with
> Microsoft on this - but then again, perhaps Microsoft
> couldn't have done anything about it (since Compaq is
> supposed to build the ROM.) However, a couple of "MVPs"
> stated - when I first began this fight - that those
> apps "...didn't even exist for upgrades", and only after I
> continued to argue the point, did they say there were
> betas of it and it "might" be released someday. I won't
> start on THAT again, but I'd like to address one point:
> the ROM size of the "full" PPC2002 image.


Some? We all wanted to see the RAM installs for the upgrades. The ROM
versions were standardized; the 16MB ROM version was not designed to hold
certain programs by Microsoft, not by Compaq. We were all pretty surprised
when MS didn't have MSN Messenger and the TSC out for the release of the
Compaq ROM upgrades. We can only beg, plead, and request stuff from
Microsoft; we can't demand something.
Rob Borek
CCNA, MCP, Microsoft MVP - Mobile Devices

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/microsoft.public.pocketpc/browse_thread/thread/6e005d703b7b1576/5f3c8f31296b38b8?q=see+ms+does+listen#5f3c8f31296b38b8

If MS does not respond, how do you know they are really listening?

Surur

"fighting" was in quotation marks - it was an effort to have Microsoft do something. You'll see this currently with the VB MVPs wanting to keep support for VB around. MVPs aren't Microsoft drones - we are there to help support Microsoft users, and to provide a user perspective to Microsoft (ie the outside looking in - it's hard to know what others are doing/using when you are the inside looking in).

Does Microsoft do everything we like? No. Do we like everything Microsoft does? No. But then again, it's the same with friends - they don't always do everything you like, and you don't always like everything they do, but you are still friends with them.

[JvanEkris]

Frank, have you been watching what's been happening with ThinkSecret and the other companies that Apple is taking to court and suing for breech of trade secrets? Things aren't so simple anymore - it seems that Web journalism is considered different than paper journalism, and in fact Microsoft used the "trade secrets" approach with the last outbreak of NDA material. So it seems that things aren't as simple as they used to be...Very strong point there. Although, like ctanic indicates, this case reaches a higher court that decides otherwise web-journalism is a sitting duck for any company thinking trade secrets are revealed. Until that happens the NDA does not matter any more on that point: you will get sued anyway!

I do not think that any site/site-owner can cope with that kind of pressure (financial nor emotional)

Jaap

[surur]

Does Microsoft do everything we like? No.

But do they do ANYTHING you felt necessary? Do they actually respond to feedback, or just continue obeying their homegrown "design guidelines". The close button is a perfect example. Would it be such a disaster if they implemented it like pocketplus did? There has certainly been enough demand for it, from normal and MVP users.

Surur

[WyattEarp]

I think that the decision to agree to the NDA ultimately is a correct one. While I don't believe it was an easy decision (correct me if I am wrong) it was the best in order to serve the OS and even more this forums' community. While we all (myself included) are disappointed with this site not being the first to get the latest breaking news we all do get to have some input into the evoltion of the Pocket PC and Windows Mobile Platform in a big way. I say this because if you think about it, if the MVPs from this site get to discuss OS and hardware issues with MS in order to create a better OS then we all had input in that same discussion. Were else does Jason and the others get bug reports, incompatible issues and wish lists from. From us. They discuss it with MS, and MS trys to fix the problems and add new features if possible. So the benefits are a two way street. If they did not sign the NDA we may not have that same type of input. It's no different than any business you may work for. If there is a problem you report it to someone in a position to change it. If that person can't change it then they bring it to someone who can. It may not happen when you want it to happen and someone else may even get credit for it but ultimately you are the one who bought it out and as long as it was changed who cares.

I'd rather have this site lead be people who are respected in their field than buy people who are not. Look at some of the other PDA forums out there and you will see too many posts that go unanswered and no new posts for days either. My point is no one here as actually been stopped from talking about up come products so don't. There are always new discussions going on and new tuff coming out. If the moderators can't then they won't but we the community still can so let the forums run with posts as they always have and enjoy. That's why we joined.

[Janak Parekh]

But do they do ANYTHING you felt necessary? Do they actually respond to feedback, or just continue obeying their homegrown "design guidelines".
They do indeed respond to feedback. There have been numerous bug reports we've sent after hearing from the community. There are discussions on future OSes that we've been able to shape. Maybe we'll be able to discuss them some day.

The close button is a perfect example.
Actually, it's the extreme exception. There's two substantially different opinions when it involves the close button, and indeed, I'm in the "why can't it be a real button?" camp. On other things, though, I feel like I've been able to make a difference. Trust me, if we felt we had no ear at MS we'd (well, at least I'd) just drop out of the MVP program.

--janak

p.s. Actually, it's interesting... the Smartphone has no real Close button either, and I've tried to learn how to use it without the Close button, and most of the time, it actually works. :) If Pocket PCs become more efficient at application management, I could see how one could live without it. But... that's another discussion for another thread. :P

[Janak Parekh]

I think that the decision to agree to the NDA ultimately is a correct one.
I agree with most of your post, but I don't know if there's a "correct" answer here. :) When it all boils down to it, there's no one "perfect" site -- each of the sites on the 'Net have their strengths and weaknesses. I contribute because I feel like we're making a difference for Pocket PC owners, but I certainly walk around other forums occasionally myself.

--janak

[WyattEarp]

Does Microsoft do everything we like? No.

But do they do ANYTHING you felt necessary? Do they actually respond to feedback, or just continue obeying their homegrown "design guidelines". The close button is a perfect example. Would it be such a disaster if they implemented it like pocketplus did? There has certainly been enough demand for it, from normal and MVP users.

Surur

I believe that the close button was a choice. Although I myself would like a real "close" button I do see that the average joe would close out a document after working very hard on it only to find out later that he forgot to save it first. The PPC was made to be simple yet accomplish business style tasks. Many of business people forget alot when it come to comupters an are not computer savy either. Most of us here are not average so it's not an issue but for others is would be a disaster. But who knows they may change it anyway.

MS listens but they are more reactive that proactive and they are slow to follow through. If they didn't listen at all they would not still be in business.

[WyattEarp]

I think that the decision to agree to the NDA ultimately is a correct one.
I agree with most of your post, but I don't know if there's a "correct" answer here. :) When it all boils down to it, there's no one "perfect" site -- each of the sites on the 'Net have their strengths and weaknesses. I contribute because I feel like we're making a difference for Pocket PC owners, but I certainly walk around other forums occasionally myself.

--janak

True, by correct I was responding to Jason stating he could better serve the platorm by him being on the inside rather than the outside. Definately not correct for everyone. And were would we be if everyone followed the same path.

[gt24]

Overall, the thing I apperciate in this case is that there is discussion about this, and that I know that this NDA exists at this site. I also appreciate how it doesn't restrict what is said in the forums, only what news articles are posted.

Not everything can be perfect, but knowing where a site stands still makes it an awesome site... now I need to find additional news sites to check in the morning though! Ah well...

[ale_ers]

There is a difference between rumors, screenshots and what is being posted on the site that everyone is talking about. Not only does it violate copyrights, it is down right stealing. I think that Jason has done a good job informing everyone that there is a news item out there that they could easily use google news (search magneto) to find without posting it. I don’t think he would post it even if he had an NDA, as I said it is down right stealing.

The thread is long and contains only a few screen shots. It is mostly about people trying to illegally hack a ROM that is not released yet so that they can run it on their PPC, which will probably damage the device anyway.

As I said, I think PPCT did a good job letting us know there was news to be read, without upsetting Microsoft. They also were very upfront with us about agreements that they have in place and I for one, find myself informed.

[surur]

Does Microsoft do everything we like? No.

But do they do ANYTHING you felt necessary? Do they actually respond to feedback, or just continue obeying their homegrown "design guidelines". The close button is a perfect example. Would it be such a disaster if they implemented it like pocketplus did? There has certainly been enough demand for it, from normal and MVP users.

Surur

I believe that the close button was a choice. Although I myself would like a real "close" button I do see that the average joe would close out a document after working very hard on it only to find out later that he forgot to save it first. The PPC was made to be simple yet accomplish business style tasks. Many of business people forget alot when it come to computers an are not computer savy either. Most of us here are not average so it's not an issue but for others is would be a disaster. But who knows they may change it anyway.


What happens on the desktop? A dialog will pop up and ask if you want to save or discard changes. Not very complicated.


MS listens but they are more reactive that proactive and they are slow to follow through. If they didn't listen at all they would not still be in business.

As another example, what about connection mangler? What was their design philosophy? Confuse all users as much as possible?

MS appears (from the slow changes to the OS over the last 4-5 years) to be very unresponsive and allergic to major change in any areas, especially the areas where they got it wrong and people complain the most.

But of course you are right. We dont live in the best of all worlds, and its possible this site would not have done so well if they did not cooperate with MS.

Surur

[Chris Leckness]

Thanks Jason for being out front and willing to discuss. I believe that this site is great with you at the helm. I do agree with your actions. Hell, I do not have an NDA with Microsoft and I am choosing not to post about this issue. There are numerous discussions in the forums already, but I do not post in them.

Good Job. As for the other sites, dont worry Jason, you do not need to "break" a story to get traffic like other sites. At least you do not post "rumored" info on one subject but preach how "rumored" info is useless to a community with another subject.

[gibson042]

While I understand what has changed regarding the editors, I'm now confused about what is allowed and what isn't by non-editors the forums. Specifically, I would like to know the position of Pocket PC Thoughts on the following issues:
Direct links to code under a Microsoft NDA - NO
Links to a page or site containing code under a Microsoft NDA - ?
Screenshots from a device running code under a Microsoft NDA - ?
Links to a page or site containing screenshots from a device running code under a Microsoft NDA - ?
Discussion about any of the above - YES

[freitasm]

I completely understand the need and stance with the NDA here are PPCT and do support it however regardless I think these rumours are still important. If I hadn't heard about WM2005, I would have upgraded my h4150 to a WM2003SE device a long time ago. I'm happy to wait given what will be available in the future.

:?:

Seeing that the h4150 is now out of line, and HP never planned to release WM2003 SE for your h4150, and will not do it for some other devices, I wouldn't hold my breath.

You'll find that the h4150 ends at WM2003. No SE, no next... :roll:

[Marc Zimmermann]

Here's a thought on why Microsoft might be trying to keep people from discussing their product:

Think about two aspects:

- early public knowledge of new features is helping competitors release something comparable sooner than necessary
- early knowledge of a supposedly imminent release is potentially killing sales of current devices, huting both MS and OEMs

With regard to the latter, of course, OEMs that sold devices with some kind of free upgrade program in the final two or three months before the new version is released could help keeping sales going.

[Rob Borek]

Does Microsoft do everything we like? No.

But do they do ANYTHING you felt necessary? Do they actually respond to feedback, or just continue obeying their homegrown "design guidelines". The close button is a perfect example. Would it be such a disaster if they implemented it like pocketplus did? There has certainly been enough demand for it, from normal and MVP users.

Surur

They do do things we felt necessary, and they do respond to feedback. With stuff such as the "close" button, it becomes hard to change a design decision that was made during the early stages of development and has now been the same through multiple generations of mobile devices. While I don't necessarily agree with their design, I do understand where it came from and why they decided to do what they did.

[Jason Dunn]

Specifically, I would like to know the position of Pocket PC Thoughts on the following issues...

* Direct links to code under a Microsoft NDA - NO
* Links to a page or site containing code under a Microsoft NDA - YES
* Screenshots from a device running code under a Microsoft NDA - YES
* Links to a page or site containing screenshots from a device running code under a Microsoft NDA - YES
* Discussion about any of the above - YES

This isn't about forum censorship, it's strictly about front-page news - with the exception of the first one above. Posting direct links to NDA code is no different than posting links to EXEs of Pocket PC warez, which we've never allowed anyway. Trying to police links to PAGES that contain NDA code is too complex to cope with.

[gibson042]

This isn't about forum censorship, it's strictly about front-page news - with the exception of the first one above. Posting direct links to NDA code is no different than posting links to EXEs of Pocket PC warez, which we've never allowed anyway. Trying to police links to PAGES that contain NDA code is too complex to cope with.
Thank you for your fast response. Your answers affirm my initial response, and I have no complaints or arguments with your forum policies. The absense of front page news about Magneto is a blow, but my no measure a crippling one. I have long considered the community surrounding this site (and its outlet, the forums) to be its greatest strength, with news aggregation serving only a secondary purpose. PPCT will remain the first site I visit every day and my primary Pocket PC resource.

[freitasm]

I completely understand the need and stance with the NDA here are PPCT and do support it however regardless I think these rumours are still important. If I hadn't heard about WM2005, I would have upgraded my h4150 to a WM2003SE device a long time ago. I'm happy to wait given what will be available in the future.

:?:

Seeing that the h4150 is now out of line, and HP never planned to release WM2003 SE for your h4150, and will not do it for some other devices, I wouldn't hold my breath.

You'll find that the h4150 ends at WM2003. No SE, no next... :roll:

Terrible mistake when reading - you're holding the upgrade to a WM2003SE based on this... On my first read I thought holding the upgradeo f your h4150 to SE. Sorry :oops:

[surur]

I have long considered the community surrounding this site (and its outlet, the forums) to be its greatest strength, with news aggregation serving only a secondary purpose. PPCT will remain the first site I visit every day and my primary Pocket PC resource.

Well said. I agree, but with the reservation that I find the lack of "buzz" surrounding the imminent release of Magneto and the new generation of pocketpc phone editions disappointing. To me its the most exciting thing happening in pocketpc land for the last year, and I'm sure I'm not the only one feeling that way.

Surur

[Jason Dunn]

The absense of front page news about Magneto is a blow, but my no measure a crippling one. I have long considered the community surrounding this site (and its outlet, the forums) to be its greatest strength, with news aggregation serving only a secondary purpose.

Indeed! I'd be perfectly happy if our forums got more posts and talking amongst users anyway. :D

[donc36]

Here's a thought on why Microsoft might be trying to keep people from discussing their product: If there are new features they are trying to introduce, and third-party developers learn of them, some will most likely try to develop applications that duplicate the new features on the existing devices. This might be good for the consumers, since they can get the new features sooner, but from Microsoft's point of view, someone else is capitalizing on their ideas. This would hurt the sale of new devices with the new operating system. Also, if they decided not to include features in the final version that appeared in earlier, unreleased code, they will get slammed for taking it out and delivering a crippled product.

I don't necessarily like it, but this is the way many corporations work, and Microsoft is exceedingly good at this game.

Is this a bad thing? I've done some beta testing, and I was under an NDA. From the developer's perspective, you don't want to give the competition a heads up of new features you're planning, nor do you want them to have access to your dirty laundry. From a marketing perspective, you must control the message regarding your product, to the extent possible.

For those of you in hard goods, or capitol goods - do you post information regarding new product development on the web for your competition to see? Does anyone work for a company that lets people see the new products in development, and then let them proclaim it to the world?

I'm not a huge fan of Microsoft, but in this case, I don't think they are violating any "rights" - like it or not - they own the intellictual property.

[Fishie]

NDA´s are a necesary evil and part of journalism in its entirety.
Let me give an example, during the last presidential campaigns if you looked well on newssites like CNN and NBC etcetera you could already find the transcripts of the canditates speaches BEFORE they gave them.
As soon as the speaches ended the journalists present at the conferences updated within 5 minutes with op-ed pieces about said speaches.

Just like Jason is with MS they were all under NDA till after the speaches, once those were over they could go public.
Often it is needed to provide coverage on a given subject to give the journalist his material beforehand so he can write his pieces and have em on as soon as the NDA is lifted.

If you havent signed an NDA though and you leak something that you found out you should be free from prosecution as that too is part of real journalism, regardles if its for broadcast, print or web.
Personally I have experience with all three media in my position as a videogame journalist and as it happens SCEE(Sony Computer Entertainment Europe) gave me(have to be carefull what I say here) some assets about a certain game in development which they also gave to other journalists.
Difference being that with me they forgot to add that the stuff was embargoed until a certain date.
Now they are pissed that the info is out there yet they know fully well that the problem lies with them so no steps can nor will be taken.

Thinkoutside is quite different, Apple should have no case against them whatsoever, they didnt sign an NDA and are not bound by anything.
They do investigative work or have someone who is under NDA that leaks information to them.
Nothing wrong with that, all Apple should be able to do is stop the leaks and/or go after the person/s who ARE under NDA yet leak info to Thinkoutside.

What is going on there can set an ugly precedent and it sckens me to see that some people who acuse MS of all that is wrong in the world are cheering Apple in its decision to try and censor Thinkoutside.
The moral hipocrasy there defies all belief.

[darrylb]

Here's a thought on why Microsoft might be trying to keep people from discussing their product: If there are new features they are trying to introduce, and third-party developers learn of them, some will most likely try to develop applications that duplicate the new features on the existing devices. This might be good for the consumers, since they can get the new features sooner, but from Microsoft's point of view, someone else is capitalizing on their ideas. This would hurt the sale of new devices with the new operating system. Also, if they decided not to include features in the final version that appeared in earlier, unreleased code, they will get slammed for taking it out and delivering a crippled product.

I don't necessarily like it, but this is the way many corporations work, and Microsoft is exceedingly good at this game.

I think part of it is also about manageing expectations. If they put xyz into a product, and then change it, people may not like the change. Better not to put anything in concrete until the product is finished.

[jlp]

The Mobile Device group isn't dumb.

You sure about that?? The dumbest thing I STILL see being perpetuated is the X not being a true close. It's contrary to the way Windows works and whatever is supposed auto clsoe the apps has not worked right since day one. If Magneto fixes this, then, I will agree with you that they are not dumb....they are just SLOW.

No - that is a deliberate design choice. I can see why they did it and it's a judgement call. I may not agree with it, but it is certainly not dumb. You are being excessively rude here Gorkon280. :?

1) EVERYBODY is questioning that fact because it ACTUALLY slows things down 2) it has newbies wonder about the different behaviour between one single interface icon that has TWO different behaviors and 3) there are lots of solutions to truely close apps using the X.

So this is 3 TIMES more than enough to say that this "design choice" IS DUMB.

EVERYBODY has told them so, yet they are stuborn enough (6 years is a LONG time) to STILL REFUSE to change that.

Talk about dumb alright!!

[jlp]

...

We have the ability to report bugs to MS and if they are repeatable, there is a good chance they will be resolved in the next AKU. Now, whether OEMs release that is another matter and honestly, MS has little control over that. Witness that today most still don't have WMP10. You think MS is happy abou that? ...

Since MS is the one coding and selling it and decides what's in their contract they could force OEM to include/offer upgrades to WiMP10 if they wanted to...

[jlp]

The NDA to me is perfectly understandable. No company wants leaked information from their meetings, R&D teams, etc. all over the place before they want it to. It's just bad business because people will sit and wait for your new product instead of buying what is current, others companys will try to copyright, trademark and product your ideas before you even finish or someone will even lay claim that you stole their idea even though they never even planned on using it and you never even heard of them. ...

People DON'T need to know excactly what's inside the new version... as long as they learn that a new version is coming out soon, sales ALREADY start to slow down, people ask if the devices they just bought OR that they could buy would still be compatible and upgradable.

Microsoft HAS to make it MANDATORY to OEMs to have AT LEAST one generation of devices (e.g. devices in a "prosumer" line) upgradable to the next OS version AND Microsoft HAS to make sure (by working close with them) that a) OEM use the right electronics to ensure compatibility b) they themselves add code that is compatible with the latest generation of devices and c) they optimize the new code to be better compatible.

That way 1) customers buy in total confidence that their "prosumer" device is compatible with AT LEAST the next OS version so 2) they DON'T STOP buying devices for months (BAD for both Microsoft AND OEMs) until they know for sure if/when/how/which device will be upgradeable!!!

IF MS CAN'T DO THAT then customers will ALWAYS WAIT until the new OS version comes out, and thus HURTING OEM and Microsoft sales!!!

Even if customers don't know what's inside a new version they will always wait MONTHS till they know everything about upgrade paths if any.

This way NOBODY WINS!!

[jlp]

Does Microsoft do everything we like? No.

But do they do ANYTHING you felt necessary? Do they actually respond to feedback, or just continue obeying their homegrown "design guidelines". The close button is a perfect example. Would it be such a disaster if they implemented it like pocketplus did? There has certainly been enough demand for it, from normal and MVP users.

Surur

I believe that the close button was a choice. Although I myself would like a real "close" button I do see that the average joe would close out a document after working very hard on it only to find out later that he forgot to save it first. The PPC was made to be simple yet accomplish business style tasks. Many of business people forget alot when it come to comupters an are not computer savy either. Most of us here are not average so it's not an issue but for others is would be a disaster. But who knows they may change it anyway.

MS listens but they are more reactive that proactive and they are slow to follow through. If they didn't listen at all they would not still be in business.

Lame excuse I'm afraid. For example Pocket Informat (PI) implements both an OK and Cancel buttons everywhere needed. When you create a new item (e.g. an appointment) then press OK to close, PI closes AND automatically saves the changes without bothering you with a subsequent dialog box asking you if you really want to save; likewise when you hit the X it closes AND automatically disgards the changes without further bothering you again.

If WebIS is smart enough to do it why MS can't do it too and implement the same INTUITIVE icons.

Should I remind you (if ever you had a device with it) that Palm-size PC ALREADY had dialog boxes with both a cancel (X) and OK buttons!!

[Jason Dunn]

So this is 3 TIMES more than enough to say that this "design choice" IS DUMB. EVERYBODY has told them so, yet they are stuborn enough (6 years is a LONG time) to STILL REFUSE to change that.

I agree 100% - we went to war over this about to years ago, and I do mean war (someone had T-shirts made up with an "X" on them) and I recall ocassions where I was actually shouting at someone. I never shout. But, ultimately, they felt their view was the right one and nothing changed. Still, giving them pause and making them think, and re-think, their decisions was a valuable process, even if it didn't result in me getting what I wanted (an "X" button that closed programs). ;-)

[Jason Dunn]

Since MS is the one coding and selling it and decides what's in their contract they could force OEM to include/offer upgrades to WiMP10 if they wanted to...

I'd like to see that myself, but you have to keep in mind it's not that simple: Microsoft *needs* the OEMs to build their products and spread the OS. If Microsoft starts making too many demands, especially demands that cost the OEMs money (like upgrades do), the OEMs might just walk away and not make the devices - look at what Casio did. Microsoft said "Ok, we're moving to ARM", and Casio said "We don't have the infrastructure in place to move to ARM, so we'll quit the game alltogether". Remember there are always two sides to everything...

[jlp]

At least there are solutions to overcome this (the close "bug", ahem "feature" :twisted:).

However, as far back as I remember, there has ALWAYS been problems with unreliable alarms, something that's IN-TO-LE-RA-BLE!!! for a device that costs hundreds and that is used on a professional basis for most users!!!

[Marc Zimmermann]

Since MS is the one coding and selling it and decides what's in their contract they could force OEM to include/offer upgrades to WiMP10 if they wanted to...

Remember that Microsoft has been in serious legal problems for "strongarming OEMs"?

[jlp]

Since MS is the one coding and selling it and decides what's in their contract they could force OEM to include/offer upgrades to WiMP10 if they wanted to...

I'd like to see that myself, but you have to keep in mind it's not that simple: Microsoft *needs* the OEMs to build their products and spread the OS. If Microsoft starts making too many demands, especially demands that cost the OEMs money (like upgrades do), the OEMs might just walk away and not make the devices - look at what Casio did. Microsoft said "Ok, we're moving to ARM", and Casio said "We don't have the infrastructure in place to move to ARM, so we'll quit the game alltogether". Remember there are always two sides to everything...

I don't really buy that, Casio is STILL in the game and has done some PPC development, at first (E-200, then E-3000) thru OEMs; but I'm not sure who makes their latest incarnation, do they do it inhouse?

Just like Sony and Toshiba after them they just decided to retire from foreign markets but still produce devices for their home market.

[jlp]

And back to WiMP10, it would not really cost the OEM that much if they release it when they make a new ROM version; I don't think there are that many lines of code that are specific to their hardware; a) it's not like WiMP10 has to address ALL the device circuits, b) the previous version already has specific codes, c) AFAIK WiMP10 is just about new codecs and DRM d) if Dell can do it for their entry level Axim x30, every OEM could do it AT LEAST for their top of the line devices, FSC Pocket Loox 7xx comes to mind.

[Jason Dunn]

I don't really buy that, Casio is STILL in the game and has done some PPC development, at first (E-200, then E-3000) thru OEMs; but I'm not sure who makes their latest incarnation, do they do it inhouse? Just like Sony and Toshiba after them they just decided to retire from foreign markets but still produce devices for their home market.

...you didn't notice that after the E-200, which was a complete disaster for them, they completely stopped making Pocket PCs for the consumer market for several years, and have only recently dripped their toe back into the water with industrial products? Look at the history books: Casio dropped the consumer Pocket PC market when they got badly burned by Microsft in the shift to ARM processors.

[heliod]

Since MS is the one coding and selling it and decides what's in their contract they could force OEM to include/offer upgrades to WiMP10 if they wanted to...

I'd like to see that myself, but you have to keep in mind it's not that simple: Microsoft *needs* the OEMs to build their products and spread the OS. If Microsoft starts making too many demands, especially demands that cost the OEMs money (like upgrades do), the OEMs might just walk away and not make the devices - look at what Casio did. Microsoft said "Ok, we're moving to ARM", and Casio said "We don't have the infrastructure in place to move to ARM, so we'll quit the game alltogether". Remember there are always two sides to everything...

Additionally to that, Microsoft is coding and selling to OEMs only the basics of the OS. This is not Windows XP in which you can bundle all drivers for all possible accessories. OEMs have to add, for each device, drivers for the screen they are using for that specific device, for the buttons, for the battery, Bluetooth and WiFi, and much more. And they have to test thourougly each one of them.

Now think that the devices are usually built under contract by a third party ODM, and the mess is complete.

Now, I know particularly of a device which everybody thought that would receive a Second Edition upgrade and it didn't. It came out that the ODM used different screens in different batches of the device, and one of the screens supported landscape as an OS function, and the other didn't... how do you deal with that?

Like Jason says, there are two sides to everything. In this case, even 3 sides. I would like very much to have an upgrade released for every device ever built. But I am sure that if companies like HP would be dealing until today with upgrades to Magneto for the 3630, we wouldn't be seeing many new devices with cool features by now.

[marovada]

No offence everyone, but this is mega amusing. It seems to me that the person posting this was concerned that other sites were going to publish the WM2005 "leak" story and everyone here would be wondering why the PPC news site wasn't - hence the explanation.

Predictably, that provoked the "you've sold us out to M$" response which was met by executive editors, editors, sub-editors and the padowan editors in traning raising their light sabers in a defensive flurry worthy of a Jedi party with Yoda on speed.

I really liked the "free speech stops at my door" metaphor. :mrgreen:

Anyway, thanks for bringing some amusement into an otherwise boring day. As I say to myself all the time - get a life guys! Seriously, who cares.

[Darius Wey]

No offence everyone, but this is mega amusing. It seems to me that the person posting this was concerned that other sites were going to publish the WM2005 "leak" story and everyone here would be wondering why the PPC news site wasn't - hence the explanation.

I think your perception of why the initial post was made is a little misguided. We weren't concerned that other sites would post stories on WM2005, and I can't imagine why we ever would be. If they decided to post on it, that's their move, not ours, and we have no reason to poke our noses into their affairs. We made the post because we were bombarded with news submissions on WM2005 leaks, and it's site policy that we cannot post on it because we are under an NDA with Microsoft. So we thought we'd make it clear to the many people who were kind enough to let us know about the leaks why we could not post it on the front page.

And finally, it's just natural for people to be highly opinionated, no matter which stance you take on the issue. And we knew that people would have something to say about these matters, which is why we left the thread open for discussion. No one's going to stop Joe User from posting his/her thoughts. I highly doubt you can call this thread a Jedi party on speed. People have questions? People have answers - and who better to provide the answers than those who are under an NDA.

[marovada]

No offence everyone, but this is mega amusing. It seems to me that the person posting this was concerned that other sites were going to publish the WM2005 "leak" story and everyone here would be wondering why the PPC news site wasn't - hence the explanation.

I think your perception of why the initial post was made is a little misguided. We weren't concerned that other sites would post stories on WM2005, and I can't imagine why we ever would be. If they decided to post on it, that's their move, not ours, and we have no reason to poke our noses into their affairs. We made the post because we were bombarded with news submissions on WM2005 leaks, and it's site policy that we cannot post on it because we are under an NDA with Microsoft. So we thought we'd make it clear to the many people who were kind enough to let us know about the leaks why we could not post it on the front page.

And finally, it's just natural for people to be highly opinionated, no matter which stance you take on the issue. And we knew that people would have something to say about these matters, which is why we left the thread open for discussion. No one's going to stop Joe User from posting his/her thoughts. I highly doubt you can call this thread a Jedi party on speed. People have questions? People have answers - and who better to provide the answers than those who are under an NDA.

Like I said - relax..... It doesn't matter. I didn't mean to invite a defensive response. Only Yoda was on speed anyway.

[marovada]

and who better to provide the answers than those who are under an NDA.

Man, I laughed so loud when I read this, I thought my head was going to explode. Oh the irony! Yeah, like who better to give hand [edit: a hand:oops: ] than the one whose hands are tied behind their back.

Oh, what was a classic!

Begun, the Jedi party has.

[Darius Wey]

Like I said - relax..... It doesn't matter. I didn't mean to invite a defensive response. Only Yoda was on speed anyway.

I wasn't making a defensive response - I was merely clarifying why the post was made, because it seemed as though you did not understand the meaning behind it. I find it ironic that I'm not the one kicking up the fuss here, so I'm not really the one that needs to relax. ;)

Man, I laughed so loud when I read this, I thought my head was going to explode. Oh the irony! Yeah, like who better to give hand [edit: a hand:oops: ] than the one whose hands are tied behind their back.

Just because one's hands are tied behind one's back, that does not mean that they are vocally inept to provide answers. I'm sure if someone wanted to know what being an MVP is all about, and what being signed into an NDA is all about, the ones who are involved in these state of affairs would probably have more answers to share than those who aren't.

[Ed Hansberry]

Since MS is the one coding and selling it and decides what's in their contract they could force OEM to include/offer upgrades to WiMP10 if they wanted to...
And a clause like that would likely cause an OEM not to sign a contract and tell MS "You can't tell us what to put on our device."

For that I am often thankful. Just about every OEM is putting a close button/task manager on the device despite MS's continual refusal to integrate it into the OS.

[WyattEarp]

The NDA to me is perfectly understandable. No company wants leaked information from their meetings, R&D teams, etc. all over the place before they want it to. It's just bad business because people will sit and wait for your new product instead of buying what is current, others companys will try to copyright, trademark and product your ideas before you even finish or someone will even lay claim that you stole their idea even though they never even planned on using it and you never even heard of them. ...

People DON'T need to know excactly what's inside the new version... as long as they learn that a new version is coming out soon, sales ALREADY start to slow down, people ask if the devices they just bought OR that they could buy would still be compatible and upgradable.

Microsoft HAS to make it MANDATORY to OEMs to have AT LEAST one generation of devices (e.g. devices in a "prosumer" line) upgradable to the next OS version AND Microsoft HAS to make sure (by working close with them) that a) OEM use the right electronics to ensure compatibility b) they themselves add code that is compatible with the latest generation of devices and c) they optimize the new code to be better compatible.

That way 1) customers buy in total confidence that their "prosumer" device is compatible with AT LEAST the next OS version so 2) they DON'T STOP buying devices for months (BAD for both Microsoft AND OEMs) until they know for sure if/when/how/which device will be upgradeable!!!

IF MS CAN'T DO THAT then customers will ALWAYS WAIT until the new OS version comes out, and thus HURTING OEM and Microsoft sales!!!

Even if customers don't know what's inside a new version they will always wait MONTHS till they know everything about upgrade paths if any.

This way NOBODY WINS!!

1) People may not need to know but they want to know, we are just curious that way. 2) All PPCs are upgradeable it is really a matter of whether a company decides to make an upgrade available. 3) Mandatory upgrades as previously stated would kill the line and one should buy something that fits one's needs as it is now without a tomorrows OS on it anyway. But wait the next OS is going to be even better so why not wait for that too. It's just a long chain of "cat and mouse" waiting for the next best thing while you sit there with nothing. And you also have to take into account the many different devices that come out duing that run but with the same OS on it, so why not was until every manufacturer releases all there devices for that OS and then choose. You can't because by that time you're back to that next OS upgrade thing again and some manufactures still release new devices with the old OS on them. It's just not realistic. Not to mention we all know that anything you buy today is already old according to the manufacture because they are already working on the next updated device. And some people will want more than one OS upgade because most of the PPC do use the some of the same hardware over a year or two so hardware specs are pretty strict. So if you want a prosumer device buy one for todays and tomorrows needs not tomorrows OS. Some people will hold out on a new device because with a new OS always comes new hardware, some just need everything new.

[WyattEarp]

Should I remind you (if ever you had a device with it) that Palm-size PC ALREADY had dialog boxes with both a cancel (X) and OK buttons!!

You need not remind me of anything and no, I passsed on all of MS Handheld and Palm-sized-PCs. I make no excuses for them, MS chose to do it and that's what we are stuck with. As others have stated there are plenty of third-party apps that solve that issue. If you really want to know why, you should ask them before you call it stupid.

[Massive quote snipped by moderator - JD]

[Jason Dunn]

No offence everyone, but this is mega amusing. It seems to me that the person posting this was concerned that other sites were going to publish the WM2005 "leak" story and everyone here would be wondering why the PPC news site wasn't - hence the explanation.

Right - rather than responding to each of the email messages that started to flood in, it was an effort to give an explanation to everyone at once.

I fail to see what's amusing about being open and honest with the readers of this site. :?

[jlp]

I don't really buy that, Casio is STILL in the game and has done some PPC development, at first (E-200, then E-3000) thru OEMs; but I'm not sure who makes their latest incarnation, do they do it inhouse? Just like Sony and Toshiba after them they just decided to retire from foreign markets but still produce devices for their home market.

...you didn't notice that after the E-200, which was a complete disaster for them, they completely stopped making Pocket PCs for the consumer market for several years, and have only recently dripped their toe back into the water with industrial products? Look at the history books: Casio dropped the consumer Pocket PC market when they got badly burned by Microsft in the shift to ARM processors.

http://www.windows-mobile.ch/xoops/uploads/smil40c706c62135c.gif I did notice it :); however the only reason it was a disaster is because, as I said they OEM'd the design and manufacturing of the E-200 by the Taiwanese Wistron. Up until the Japanese E-750 they always developped their devices themselves and manufactured it too: they were very hi quality items.

However the E-200 QC problems is what killed it.

After this they switched to ASUS who made the E-3000 and kept it for their home market. It came out about a year later. Now the latest model comes in a normal 12-18 months delay.

Casio didn't "stopped making Pocket PCs for the consumer market for several years" per se; i.e. they didn't develop (or did they) or at least manufacture these themselves, but still marketed them under their label.

[marovada]

Like I said - relax..... It doesn't matter. I didn't mean to invite a defensive response. Only Yoda was on speed anyway.

I wasn't making a defensive response

Yeah, like this isn't a defensive response? If you say so.

[marovada]

No offence everyone, but this is mega amusing. It seems to me that the person posting this was concerned that other sites were going to publish the WM2005 "leak" story and everyone here would be wondering why the PPC news site wasn't - hence the explanation.

Right - rather than responding to each of the email messages that started to flood in, it was an effort to give an explanation to everyone at once.

I fail to see what's amusing about being open and honest with the readers of this site. :?

I was trying to be light hearted about the whole thing - it really did alleviate the boredon.

[Darius Wey]

Like I said - relax..... It doesn't matter. I didn't mean to invite a defensive response. Only Yoda was on speed anyway.

I wasn't making a defensive response

Yeah, like this isn't a defensive response? If you say so.

marovada, all I can say is semantics is in the eye of the beholder. Sure, that second response may have been a little defensive, although it was made after you hurled a whole bunch of accusations at me. My initial post only served to clarify a few points, and was not made to defend the actions of a bunch of editors, MVPs, etc.

Anyway, there is no reason to turn this thread into an argument, so I refuse to continue on with this discussion. If you still believe you have a point to raise and a few buttons to press, you're more than welcome to PM or email me, because there's no point derailing this thread any further.

[marovada]

Like I said - relax..... It doesn't matter. I didn't mean to invite a defensive response. Only Yoda was on speed anyway.

I wasn't making a defensive response

Yeah, like this isn't a defensive response? If you say so.

marovada, all I can say is semantics is in the eye of the beholder. Sure, that second response may have been a little defensive, although it was made after you hurled a whole bunch of accusations at me. My initial post only served to clarify a few points, and was not made to defend the actions of a bunch of editors, MVPs, etc.

Anyway, there is no reason to turn this thread into an argument, so I refuse to continue on with this discussion. If you still believe you have a point to raise and a few buttons to press, you're more than welcome to PM or email me, because there's no point derailing this thread any further.

I'm not sure how you can construe anything that I said as "hurling" any personal accusations. My initial contribution was a general comment that I admit was meant, on one level, to be provocative in the way in which it was expressed - but it certainly wasn't addressed to you personally. You chose to respond to it. You could have just ignored it.

I apologise if I have offended anyone, including you Darius. Probably, my sense of humor is not for everyone and this thread contains a lot of emotional content, so it probably wasn't the best thread to make a joke on.

Only goes to show that people are very easily offended - although I hasten to add that the editors are the only ones who appear to have responded and Jason didn't seem to take much offence or disagree with the serioud part of my comment.

[ethancaine]

Okay, I have two questions and both are aimed at Jason Dunn and his Dunnites (much love to you all):

1) What issues, specifically, have you addressed on our behalf that ultimately benefitted us? I'm sure there's plentyy to choose from, so just throw us a few big ones to give us the 'warm fuzzy' that you are on our side here.

2) Remembering the WM2003 release, I recall that while no specific information was ever released by the MVPs, a few hints were thrown out by Jason in particular. Why can't we get some of that now? I like metaphors, so something like "It's a Hailey's Comet kinda thing... really bitchin' to see, but it ain't gonna be here any time soon" would really work for me. Ooh! How about this... can you discount rumors? I'm not talking the let's pick em apart about every nit-picky detail, but the big junk... Can't you say "No, plans for a Windows-like file system are not in the short term goals of the development jerks." or something all PC like that? I'm not asking you to feed that dog, or even throw it a bone, but you are walking it and I do expect you to be able to pick up it's doodie and not just leave it on the neighbor's lawn.

[Ed Hansberry]

Okay, I have two questions and both are aimed at Jason Dunn and his Dunnites (much love to you all):

1) What issues, specifically, have you addressed on our behalf that ultimately benefitted us? I'm sure there's plentyy to choose from, so just throw us a few big ones to give us the 'warm fuzzy' that you are on our side here.
A. That isn't what MVPs are about. Go back and read my post on page 5.
B. None of us have to justify that we are "on your side."2) Remembering the WM2003 release, I recall that while no specific information was ever released by the MVPs, a few hints were thrown out by Jason in particular. Why can't we get some of that now? I like metaphors, so something like "It's a Hailey's Comet kinda thing... really bitchin' to see, but it ain't gonna be here any time soon" would really work for me. Ooh! How about this... can you discount rumors? I'm not talking the let's pick em apart about every nit-picky detail, but the big junk... Can't you say "No, plans for a Windows-like file system are not in the short term goals of the development jerks." or something all PC like that? I'm not asking you to feed that dog, or even throw it a bone, but you are walking it and I do expect you to be able to pick up it's doodie and not just leave it on the neighbor's lawn.
Which part of the title of this thread are you having trouble with? :?

[Stik]

- early knowledge of a supposedly imminent release is potentially killing sales of current devices, huting both MS and OEMs

I think this one phrase wraps it all up in a nutshell. I seem to remember the same situation several years back w/ Palm, when news and rumors of new devices completely killed their sales and a glut of ' old ' product languished and had to be sold off at bargain basement prices.

Microsoft ( and device manufacturers ) , IMO, learned a great lesson from that fiasco, and don't want a replication.

Very understandable, and I commend Jason ( and other MVP's ) for doing what they can do, and hold him ( them ) in no harm for things they just can't discuss. Period. :mrgreen:

[vetteguy]

I honestly haven't been to this site in quite a while, since my interest in PDAs seems to have waned as much as the rest of the world (last time I saw a statistic, PDAs were already on the downward spiral), but I do read the weekly updates the site sends out. I must say that it's stuff like this that makes me stop coming to these types of sites-they start out really cool, offering information that no one else has, with no particular loyalties to any one organization. Then, as with most of them, they eventually get too big for their britches, get in bed with multiple companies, and lose their editorial credibility. Too bad, as I always thought this was one of the best sites. I guess all good things must come to an end.

[Jason Dunn]

I must say that it's stuff like this that makes me stop coming to these types of sites-they start out really cool, offering information that no one else has, with no particular loyalties to any one organization. Then, as with most of them, they eventually get too big for their britches, get in bed with multiple companies, and lose their editorial credibility. Too bad, as I always thought this was one of the best sites. I guess all good things must come to an end.

You're welcome to your opinion, but I've been an MVP since 1997, and Pocket PC Thoughts was launched in 2000, so nothing has changed from my point of view. ;-)

[Paragon]

Then, as with most of them, they eventually get too big for their britches, get in bed with multiple companies, and lose their editorial credibility.

Dude, that just isn't true! Thoughts, and its editors have always openly discussed PPCs issues both for and against MS, and they do so without fear of any reprisal from Microsoft. In fact it is beginning to appear that it is a small portion of the community it serves that is offering the negative reprisals. As an enthusiast site it is a great advantage to have a connection such as the MVP program. There ARE benefits. As an MVP for a short while I was able to see those benefits. If an NDA prevents some of its staff from posting on something that isn't supposed to be publicly available, that is a very small price that must be paid. We all benefit from the relationship between MS and MVPs. We may not see things flagged stating so, but it is a very important conduit between Microsoft and its consumers. A lot of ideas, complaints, requests, and so on can be funneled through MVPs, and sites like this. Microsoft folk DO read sites like this.

No one has "sold out" here.

Dave

[Steve Jordan]

Man, am I glad I just walked in on this... it's scary in here! What is so hard to understand about "We can't talk about it, but you can"? At least they're not forbidding us to discuss it in their forums (take this incredible thread, for instance).

Relax. Spring is here. Go roll an Easter egg. Watch The Incredibles. Download porn. Make some porn :P. Don't sweat the little stuff.

And for the record, Jason et al: Rock on.

[Tari Akpodiete]

Surely most of you must be aware by now of what Apple has done to a number of websites that published info that was obtained from people under NDA? NO? Well, they went after them with a vengeance, and rightly so. It's a legal issue.

Would you like anyone working here to lose their house to legal fees to defend themselves for breaking what is actually a contract? Or go into personal debt?

Over the years, Jason worked his butt off to do the best he can for his visitors. Love him or hate him, he's done his best. He's been honest and upfront about his situation in this case. Come on, the dude always has the good info, and he'll have more of it later. When he legally can let you know, he will. And probably, it will right on the nose, not speculation. And it's not like you can't discuss what you've heard. He just can't participate. For now.

Where's the love? Where's the respect?

[TomB]

This is an interesting thread although some people are being a bit crazed. I think part of the problem is that many people think of this site as a resource for hard news on the PPC. Since the site deals with PPCs and the NDAs are with Microsoft - that becomes a problem when MS starts to tighten requirements on MVP news sites. The problem is NOT with Jason and his moderators, but with the changes from Microsoft. Their need for secrecy is obvious, but someone needs to let them know when they are going too far.

As far as the value of the MVP program, Jason and his moderators are our representatives and give grassroots feedback to Microsoft based on what they have seen on these forums. So we don't want THAT to change, just Microsoft's changes in use of information. BTW - I know that MVPs can only present feedback, but there are some very obvious things that have been wrong with Microsoft PDAs from day one that have always had me scratching my head. Like the "kill" button that really just minimized programs without freeing up that memory. I don't think I have ever in my life run into a single person who thought this was a great feature
including MVPs. So it is obvious MS is selective about what they react to. Sometimes it seems like this is the real problem with the MVP program.

At any rate, Jason and the crew here are number one in my book, please keep up the good work! Just remember that at the next MVP meeting, EVERYONE should bring up the restrictions, AND the program's credibility if there is never follow-up on the feedback presented. This program was started by Derek Brown in 1998(?) to help MS evangelize and market WinCE PDAs. It is not good for anyone when restrictions start to diminish the original intent of the program.

[WyattEarp]

I must say that Jason being up front with the NDA and abiding by it is much better than posting news first and have it taken down anyway like other sites. Windows Mobile 2005: Exposed!
(http://pocketnow.com/index.php?a=portal_detail&t=reviews&id=601&p=1) This site has been fine all this time so let's just continue as always to keep this site the best there is.

[firefoxrocks]

a real shame :(

[Wiggster]

I don't think it's a shame. If you only visit the front page, you're going to miss some posts from the past. That's why you check the forum whenever you come here. And we are more than enabled to post about any rumors about the new OSes that we hear about. It's just the EDITORS not posting stories or posts about them.

There are 22,287 registered users. So we lose maybe a dozen people telling us about stuff. No biggie.

[JvanEkris]

I don't think it's a shame. If you only visit the front page, you're going to miss some posts from the past.I don't think so, like Jason says: he is a MVP since 1997 and the site only started in 2000. So the problem is as big (or small) in the past as it is now.....

Jaap

[Phillip Dyson]

Well, I for one have only one thing that I would like to channel through the MVPs.

Better filtering for ActiveSync. If I could get that then I could dump crappy Intellisync on my work desktop.

But on another note, I think that Dunn and his team have done an impeccable job with the site. First if determining what vendor demands were too much. In the case of HP. And secondly in being upfront in letting the community know where they stand on NDAs that they feel are acceptable.

One saying that I like is: "You may not like me, but atleast you know where I stand."

Well now I know where they stand, and I still like them. :wink:
Guys keep up the good work.

And regardless of whether I decide I don't like the restrictions in the future, I will always respect that fact that you were up front and clear about where you stand.