One More for the Media Format Party: MicroSD [Archive]

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Jonathon Watkins

03-21-2005, 07:00 PM

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000967035857/' target='_blank'>http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000967035857/</a> </div>"Normally news that we’re going to have yet another flash memory card format to contend with would result in plenty of whining on our part about how there are way too many formats to deal with already, whining which may or may not be followed by some sort of plea for the manufacturers of the world to join hands and work together on common standards. But not this time around. . . . The new microSD card is going to be fully compatible with and have the same exact dimensions as TransFlash (both measure 11mm x 15mm x 1mm in size), and SanDisk has already announced plans to “transition” its TransFlash line to the microSD standard later this year. It sounds like everyone decided to spare us the pointless format war." <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/2003/flashcards.jpg" /> The Famous Four. (There are no pics of MicroSD yet, but it's the same size as Transflash). So, it looks like we have another entrant to the overcrowded media format party. However this one is different. It looks like the SD standard has managed to swallow Transflash to produce a reasonable amount of compatibility. OK, you can only easily move smaller cards into adaptors on larger devices, but it's something. So, do you reckon we have the (W)holy Quartet then? CF, SD, MiniSD and MicroSD forever and ever amen? ;-) Will these four sizes/formats of media card be sufficient, or is there any reason to buy any other standard?

Jonathan1

03-21-2005, 07:45 PM

We need a foaming at the mouth emoticon for the pocketpcthoughts crew.

Jonathon Watkins

03-21-2005, 07:47 PM

We need a foaming at the mouth emoticon for the pocketpcthoughts crew.

Why? :wink: I am saying that MicroSD is a sensible development. We now have, what, 24 differnt card formats? Or is that 23? The media card madness must end some time. :?

PPCRules

03-21-2005, 07:52 PM

Will these four sizes/formats of media card be sufficient, or is there any reason to buy any other standard?
Well, if you ever want a Sony device, you'll have a reason.

saru83

03-21-2005, 07:59 PM

Pony99CA

03-21-2005, 08:17 PM

So, do you reckon we have the (W)holy Quartet then? CF, SD, MiniSD and MicroSD forever and ever amen? ;-) Will these four sizes/formats of media card be sufficient, or is there any reason to buy any other standard?
I don't think we need those four, even. I have a 128 MB TransFlash, er, MicroSD card for my Motorola V710, and it really is too small. Personally, I think SD is about right and we shouldn't have MiniSD or MicroSD, but what do I know?

At least the TransFlash card came with an SD adapter so I can use it in my laptop and iPAQ.

Steve

Jonathon Watkins

03-21-2005, 08:31 PM

Actually these 4 cards will be totaly rejected when the C-flash will be available.

No chance. Just about everyone is geared up to use SD/MMC at the moment. Most devices support it and I think it has a bright future. Heck, I'm still buying CF cards and I think SD is too small. :lol: I know a lot of other folks that feel the same way. SD is as about as small as you want to go for a an interchangeable media card format (as opposed to a card designed to sit under a SIM and never be taken out).

SD for example has a max support of 4GB on the other hand C-flash has max support of 2048GB :D

I thought that as well, but apprently, SD tops out at 32Gb. (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=332661#332661) Standards do evolve as well, so I don't think it's as cut and dried as that.

So what do u think? :wink:

I think there are too many media card standards. ;-) I also think we should make it clear we won't put up with the manufactures attempts to gouge us for their proprietary card formats.

Check out these links if u wish to know more about the C-flash

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/index.php?topic_id=38334

:lol: Thank you. That's the fist time someone's quoted one of my own post back at me as a rebuttal. :lol: I'll be sure to read it. :wink:

Jonathon Watkins

03-21-2005, 08:35 PM

Will these four sizes/formats of media card be sufficient, or is there any reason to buy any other standard?
Well, if you ever want a Sony device, you'll have a reason.

Nah, dump the Sony. :devilboy: Take a look at the following list. The prices are Expansys own brand, so it's a fair comparison:

£16.95 = 256Mb Compact Flash (http://www.expansys.com/product.asp?code=FC256_H4)
£21.95 = 256Mb SD (http://www.expansys.com/product.asp?code=SD-256)
£22.95 = 256Mb Mini SD (with SD adaptor) (http://www.expansys.com/product.asp?code=116181)
£37.95 = 256Mb Transflash (with SD adaptor) (http://www.expansys.com/product.asp?code=118536)
£45.95 = 256Mb Memory stick (http://www.expansys.com/product.asp?code=108278)

Sony has messed folks up with their frequent memory stick standard changes and has left consumers out in the cold. Their expensive propitiatory standard will never be the mainstream standard, so why buy any product that supports it when you can get better products that support open standards? :?:

jlp

03-21-2005, 08:39 PM

Actually these 4 cards will be totaly rejected when the C-flash will be available.

Coz C-flash 'by Pretec' is the smallest though the highest supported capasity ever.

SD for example has a max support of 4GB on the other hand C-flash has max support of 2048GB :D

So what do u think? :wink:

...

Where do you get this 4GB figure for SD cards from??

It looks like you're spreading misinformation without even verifiying at the source!!

This figure of yours is ab-so-lute-ly wrong: I verified it myself and Panasonic, one of the SD standard initiator, mentions a development path up to 32 GB, almost 30 GB over your wrong figure; a whole lot more!!

You probably remember the wrong figure given by a Taiwanese site when they presented one of the infamous substandard card.

PPCT mentioned it, I did some research and mentioned the problem here and emailed the Taiwanese site that DID correct it. However this article on that site is not freely available now, and some people here still remember the wrong figure.

applejosh

03-21-2005, 08:41 PM

...or is there any reason to buy any other standard?

I say let's develop even more memory card form factors. You can never have too many. I mean, how are the manufacturers supposed to screw us out of money, er, I mean get us to stay current with the newest and latest technologies?

Question: At what point do "standards" become pointless? I mean, aren't standards supposed to converge technologies in an agreeable fashion so they can be used across different devices from different manufacturers? Or is it just a "standard" if someone declares it a standard because it sells more that way? If we have 20 some different "standards" for the same function, are any of them really standards? :confused totally:

I agree with Pony99CA. The SD is small enough. Smaller than that and you lose them too easily (which is probably another reason they're trying to shrink everything down). I have problems enough trying to keep my SD cards in tow.

Jonathon Watkins

03-21-2005, 08:51 PM

.. I mean, how are the manufacturers supposed to screw us out of money...

Bingo! :twisted:

The SD is small enough. Smaller than that and you lose them too easily (which is probably another reason they're trying to shrink everything down). I have problems enough trying to keep my SD cards in tow.

Yup, I totally agree that as an interchangeable media card, SD is about as small as you would want to go. I still really like CF cards, partially for that reason.

jlp

03-21-2005, 08:54 PM

I agree with Pony99CA. The SD is small enough. Smaller than that and you lose them too easily (which is probably another reason they're trying to shrink everything down). I have problems enough trying to keep my SD cards in tow.

NOT only is SD small enough, standard enough and offers more capacity (except for the much larger CF), it's also faster, cheaper, easier to find, etc.

As I said again and again, all the other substandard cards are going in ALL the wrong direction: offering more of ALL that we don't want: more expensive, more difficult to find, etc. and less of ALL that we don't want: less capacity, slower speed, less compatibility, etc.

tzirbel

03-21-2005, 09:19 PM

Does this new "Micro SD" card come with a tweezers and a magnifying glass. Damn. There is a point where small is too small for practical every day use. I can see it now; Walking into the office seeing 3 or 4 people crawling on the floor looking for a micro sd card that somebody dropped like a contact lense.

jlp

03-21-2005, 09:28 PM

Ekkie Tepsupornchai

03-21-2005, 09:38 PM

well... look at it this way. If they do get smaller, we'll no longer need storage cases. We can just stick the card underneath our fingernails. ;)

saru83

03-21-2005, 10:11 PM

Thank you. That's the fist time someone's quoted one of my own post back at me as a rebuttal. I'll be sure to read it.

hey Jonathon, i was'nt writing this specifically for u, it was a general post.. :)

Thanks for your reply anyways :D

This figure of yours is ab-so-lute-ly wrong

Hey jlp, take it easy :D , i got this information from a PPC thoughts post, u can check it out

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/ind...?topic_id=38334

anyways, thanks for updating me :D

Arcane Heretic

03-21-2005, 10:22 PM

I hope the developers of of the Transflash lose all of their money and go out business. They deserve it.
This has got to stop somewhere. 80 bazillion different memory formats. And they keep getting smaller. You know when it gets to the point where it requires a jewelers loupe and nano tweezers to install a memory for the consumer this is just flapping rediculous.

:?

Fred44

03-21-2005, 10:58 PM

I am all for smaller and smaller memory formats. A lot of these formats are making it easy for PDA manufactures to create smaller devices. There are SD to CF adapters, there are TransFlash to SD adapters, and based on the look of the Mini SD adapter there will be a Mini SD to SD adapter. When 32MB SD cards are cheaper then CF cards you can use an adapter. If your PDA has only SD you can use a Mini SD or TransFlash adapter to use newer larger/cheaper cards.

MMC, SD, MiniSD, TransFlash are all formats that are designed to work in a standard SD slot with an adapter. They all use the same electrical interface and the same driver. CF is different but the card is so huge that there is plenty of room to use IC’s to convert the CF parallel interface into one that is the same as SD.

I want the smallest PDA I can get with a 4” VGA display. CF does not make that possible. Cell phones and laptops seem to be getting smaller with larger displays every year but for some reason PDA’s get bigger every year. Example the 4700, X50v, a730, e805.

jlp

03-21-2005, 11:20 PM

This figure of yours is ab-so-lute-ly wrong

Hey jlp, take it easy :D , i got this information from a PPC thoughts post, u can check it out

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/ind...?topic_id=38334

anyways, thanks for updating me :D

Could you please check your link for it doesn't work

jlp

03-21-2005, 11:36 PM

...When 32MB SD cards are cheaper then CF cards you can use an adapter. If your PDA has only SD you can use a Mini SD or TransFlash adapter to use newer larger/cheaper cards.

32 MB cards are not sold since ages, and as Jonathon has showed it CF cards -and SD cards in a slightly less extent- are still cheaper, faster and come in much higher capacities.

However at 12.5 ccm including rails and connector, CF slots are much too big for small casual digicams and more obviously cell phones, etc.

An SD slot is only 2.5 ccm, approximately only 2% of today's cell phones overall volume. Using a smaller card saves virtually nothing, but breaks the important 2-way compatibility, and as said again and again brings all the other numerous and important disadvantages.

SD cards are the major, quasi universal format and the most versatile one too.

Many people understand this and are standardizing their devices and cards on SD.

Substandard cards does NOT allow 2 way compatibility so they should be avoided everytime as possible. And don't even get me started :twisted: on the numerous :evil: MemorySH!T formats that are mostly incompatible with each other :evil: , so much more so with other competing formats, i.e. SD cards.

I want the smallest PDA I can get with a 4” VGA display. CF does not make that possible.

I'm afraid it's wrong here too, every single VGA device has both CF and SD slots, and the ipaq 4700 is the thinnest one too.

If they drop CF that means a thinner body but the battery will be that much smaller too and won't be on par with the fast CPU and higher consumption of a larger and much higher rez VGA screen, etc.

Cell phones and laptops seem to be getting smaller with larger displays every year but for some reason PDA’s get bigger every year. Example the 4700, X50v, a730, e805.

Not true again as I just said the 4700 is the smallest device with a 4" screen probably smaller than the h5xxx (yet with a CF slot and a larger and much denser screen), the x50v is much smaller than its predecessor the x5 (yet with 1) Bluetooth, 2) Wi-fi, 3) a larger screen, 4) VGA, 5) a GPU and 6) VGA output capability built-in), the a730 is also smaller than its predecessor the a716.

saru83

03-21-2005, 11:57 PM

Could you please check your link for it doesn't work

There u go,

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/index.php?topic_id=38334

jlp

03-21-2005, 11:59 PM

Official HP figures:
- HP iPAQ h5500 Series: 5.43 x 3.3 x 0.63 in. (138 x 84 x 15.9 mm)
- HP iPAQ hx4700 series: 5.17 x 3.03 x .59 in (131 x 77 x 14.9 mm)

So the newest 4700 is smaller than its predecessor in every dimension, yet has a larger screen with much higher rez and yet includes a CF slot too.

jlp

03-22-2005, 12:09 AM

Could you please check your link for it doesn't work

There u go,

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/index.php?topic_id=38334

Could I ask you to please read all the posts at least up until I correct Jonathon's wrong figure... thanks 8).

You will also learn some other interesting arguments against substandard cards and slots.

beq

03-22-2005, 02:55 AM

Will there be a microSD-to-miniSD adapter as well? ;)

Just imagining how many nested adapters I can use to insert a microSD card into my laptop's PC Card slot...

gorkon280

03-22-2005, 07:27 PM

Jonathon Watkins

03-22-2005, 08:31 PM

I believe that you don't need a pic of MicroSD because you already have one. MicroSD IS Transflash. Transflash has been renamed, MicroSD. There was a actualy pic of a MicroSD labeled card on Engadget last week and it IS the same as Transflash.

Umm, would that be the same same Engadget article I linked to in the post, which only has a picture of a Transflash card with the following:

P.S. - Couldn’t find any pics of a microSD card, but since they’re supposed to be the same size as TransFlash cards...

jlp

03-23-2005, 12:03 AM

Who cares about sub-standards in every sense of the words anyway??? :roll:

:wink:

Fred44

03-24-2005, 01:21 AM

32 MB cards are not sold since ages, and as Jonathon has showed it CF cards -and SD cards in a slightly less extent- are still cheaper, faster and come in much higher capacities.
I do apologize for the mistake. I meant 32GB not 32MB. SD cards will be cheaper in the near future. Just like hard drives migrated from 8” to 5 1/4” to 2.5”. How much is a 5 ¼” 160GB hard drive compared to a 3.5" 160GB hard drive today? Most people that need a 5 1/4” HD today use mounting brackets (an adapter) to mount the drive in a 3.5” in the same area (AKA SD to Trans Flash adapter). Do you really believe that in the year 2010 CF will still be the dominate standard?

I want the smallest PDA I can get with a 4” VGA display. CF does not make that possible.
I'm afraid it's wrong here too, every single VGA device has both CF and SD slots, and the ipaq 4700 is the thinnest one too.
What is wrong about my quote? Is it wrong to want a small PDA like the HP 4150? You are correct that all the VGA units shipping today have SD and CF and that is why they are all so huge.

If they drop CF that means a thinner body but the battery will be that much smaller too and won't be on par with the fast CPU and higher consumption of a larger and much higher rez VGA screen, etc.
Poly Li Ion batteries can be molded to the form factor of the case. If the case has to be 1mm thicker to accommodate the higher mHA hours that a new CPU or display might need that is OK. The PXA270 requires a lot less power running at 624MHz then the SA1110 running at 206MHz or the PXA250 running at 400MHz.

Not true again as I just said the 4700 is the smallest device with a 4" screen probably smaller than the h5xxx (yet with a CF slot and a larger and much denser screen), the x50v is much smaller than its predecessor the x5 (yet with 1) Bluetooth, 2) Wi-fi, 3) a larger screen, 4) VGA, 5) a GPU and 6) VGA output capability built-in), the a730 is also smaller than its predecessor the a716.
Official HP figures:
- HP iPAQ h5500 Series: 5.43 x 3.3 x 0.63 in. (138 x 84 x 15.9 mm)
- HP iPAQ hx4700 series: 5.17 x 3.03 x .59 in (131 x 77 x 14.9 mm)
First why would you compare the H5500 to a 4700? The 5550 is 400MHz PXA255, 320x240 display, 128MB SDRAM, WiFi, BT, CF, SD. A similar device that is a lot smaller is the 4150. The 4150 has a 400MHz PXA255 (same), 320x240 display (same), 64MB SDRAM (less), WiFi, BT, NO CF, SD. No one is shipping a VGA PDA with out CF yet so there is nothing really to compare it to yet. That gets back to my statement that cell phones and laptop keep getting smaller with higher res screens but PDA’s keep growing. One thing that is not gowning is PDA’s market share. It drops every year because a lot of the functionality is now used in really small cell phones with big hi-res displays.

HP iPAQ hx4700 (131 x 77 x 14.9 mm)
HP iPAQ 4150 (114 x 71 x 13.5)

A 4” VGA display will fit in a 4150. This is a post from a long time ago.

4150 size: 114 x 71 x 13.5 mm

4.0" screen size = 61 x 81 mm

It would be great if HP kept the form factor of the 4150 but added a 4” VGA display. The following can work:

(Top to bottom)
114mm tall with 10mm of plastic at the top, 81mm of screen and 23mm at the bottom for the buttons and pad/joystick.
(Side to side)
71mm wide with 5mm on each side.
(Thickness)
Make it thinner then 13.5mm, 7-10mm would be great.

This is very feasible.

beq

03-25-2005, 03:40 AM

Argh, I finally got my first Memory Stick (Duo) today, as it came bundled with my new Sony Playstation Portable. I feel so dirty... :( ;)

Does anyone know if there's such a thing as:

1) miniSD or microSD to MS Duo adapter
2) MS Duo to SD adapter (doubtful as they're almost same size)

With #1 I can then just buy miniSD/microSD cards and use them in my Pocket PC (with an SD adapter) or gadgets that take MS/MS Duo like the Sony PSP.

I'm crossing my fingers...

beq

03-25-2005, 03:57 AM

What's funny, none of my older N-in-one USB card readers support MS Duo natively.

I had completely spaced out for a sec and proceeded to insert the MS Duo card into one reader's multi-format slot (which only takes SD and full MS), and it went all the way in and I couldn't get the card out. Trying to pry the edge with my fingertip just pushed it farther in. I ended up using an exacto knife to kind of stab at the card and pull it out.

Later on because MS Duo looks similar in size to SD, I almost inserted the Duo card into another reader's SD slot, but I cought my mistake in time and proceeded to insert the card into the MS slot which is above the SD slot. I was baffled for a sec when the Duo card didn't fit in the MS slot, until I realized my second mistake :roll:

Time to get all new (N+1)-in-one card readers...