Pretec C-Flash: Yet ANOTHER Flash Format [Archive]

Jonathon Watkins

03-11-2005, 12:00 PM

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.pretec.com/PR/2005/PR_031005_PRETEC_C-FLASH.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.pretec.com/PR/2005/PR_03...TEC_C-FLASH.htm</a><br /><br /></div><i>"With physical size of 17mm x 12mm x 1.0mm, about 1/3 the volume of RS-MMC or miniSD, C-Flash is one of the smallest form factor flash memory cards in the world. . . with capacity up to 2048GB (500 times of MMC capacity) and transfer speed up to 120MB/s (10 times of SD speed). . . Pretec will also offer various adapters for C-Flash such as SD, miniSD, MMC, RS-MMC and USB". . . C-Flash has also been submitted to MMCA to be considered as the next small form factor standard of MMC. According to Gartner Dataquest report, MMC will become #1 form factor of flash memory card in 2005, with market share projection of 34% (SD 30% and memory Stick 20%).</i>"<br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/2003/Pretec_C-Flash_L.jpg" /><br />So, after <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=32802&highlight">Sandisk's Transflash</a> announcement, comes Pretec's C-Flash and it has to be said that the specifications look good. SD/MMC have clearly won the current round of card standards, but the battle is in full swing for the next smaller next generation of cards. Some have said that <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=36432&"> incompatibility is threatening our digital lifestyles,</a> but I'm sure we'll all be fine with a universal <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=32511&"> 242-in-1 card reader.</a> :roll: I know that a new format is required that is physically smaller than SD. I just wish that manufactures would just agree on ONE standard! New media card standards just keep coming. This is WAY past ridiculous! :evil:

ctmagnus

03-11-2005, 12:20 PM

Darius Wey

03-11-2005, 12:42 PM

Is that supposed to say GB? Cuz if so, I say to 4377 with compact flash, secure digital and all the other semi-ubiquitous formats out there today. I want 2TB on something the size of my little fingernail!

They seem pretty certain on that point by stating it's "500 times the capacity of current MMC cards" - but you have to wonder, how old will you have to be before you see it in the consumer market. :?

KAMware

03-11-2005, 12:45 PM

Jeeze! I will replace all my hard dives with 2TB cards any day! Bring them on!
8)

gorkon280

03-11-2005, 02:50 PM

I am getting more convinced as time goes on, the spinning platters of our hard drive will be replaced by solid satte flash ram. Densities are getting better every day and eventually that san won't have disks in it, but it wil have hot swappable flash memory. The only thing remains is current hard disks are already faster then alot of this memory. Once the latencies are better and the price goes down, you'll see IBM, EMC and others move to flash for storage.

david291

03-11-2005, 03:40 PM

At the transfer speed quoted, it would take almost 5 hours to read the entire contents of a max capacity 2TB card.

Jonathon Watkins

03-11-2005, 03:46 PM

At the transfer speed quoted, it would take almost 5 hours to read the entire contents of a max capacity 2TB card.

When I glanced at that figure it did not seem right. However when I calcuated it out, it was. We obviously need much faster hard drives (and storage cards) in the future. :wink:

However, to be fair, 120Mb per second is 3-4 times the max sustainable transfer speed of the top end IDE disk drives at the moment. It's technical specs do look good.

Felix Torres

03-11-2005, 04:00 PM

I agree there are way too many aspiring flash "standards".
But...

This one *may* have a chance.
Aside from the fact its been adopted by China, Inc in its IP war against foreign tech, there is the fact that it appears to be a snap-in form factor, instead of a slide-in spec.
(This is going by the photo alone...)

This is something I have wondered about for a while since snap-in sockets are by nature cheaper than spring-loaded slot adapters.
And they take up less volume.
So, regardless of the electronic merit of the spec, the manufacturability advantages may create a market for this thing.

Right now I'm thinking of a PC-card adapter that could hold 8 or more of these cards and a PDA with 4 sockets.
If there is a ROM-based version of the spec this could be a content distribution mechanism down the road...

Could doesn't mean will; its obvious everybody is trying to get *their* spec adopted so they can charge royalties instead of paying them. :roll:

gt24

03-11-2005, 04:16 PM

I was told, generically, to avoid touching the gold pins on an SD card, just to maximize its' life...

now how the heck do you carry this tiny card? It is mostly gold pins and it is the size of a dime!!! 8O

Size shouldn't necessarily change... density should.... talking about a new tiny card that has uber more storage doesn't make a 2 GB SD card any closer to reality... sheesh! (reality means being sold... well, then again, these tiny cards aren't exactly on shelves either...)

jlp

03-11-2005, 04:53 PM

All I see is a relentless race to show who's smarter... yet most stupid at the same time.

Instead of bringing yet another incompatible format, showing how stupid they are, why don't these ungeneers work enhancing an already universal format aka MMC or even SD (transfer speed-wise, capacity-wise, etc.).

There are many millions of MMC and SD cards out there.

YOU ALL probably own a few of these cards.

What will you do with them IF any of those non standards win?

Are you willing to throw out the window hundreds of $ worth of perfectly working cards?

Obviously enough they won't fit any new device that would integrate such tiny slots!!

It doesn't much matter if you can use these tiny cards in a current device with an adapter, I perfectly understand you can!!

However NONE of your current cards will fit any device using such tiny slot.

Just think about this:

I just went yesterday to the International Geneva Motor Show; I have a CF card fitted Nikon prosumer digicam and a couple CF cards. I also carry everywhere a breast shirt pocket sized Kyocera Finecam; it uses SD cards. When my more capable Nikon ran out of memory, I had to shoot with the less powerful (especially focus-wise and flash-wise) Finecam. I would have had to buy a very expensive SD 2 CF adapter (I eventually will have to), one that's as small as a standard CF card (for it to fit entirely into the Nikon, since it has a door that fully closes). You can find almost everywhere cheap SD 2 CF adapters but they are longer than a regular CF card, plus the SD card sticks out. Panasonic makes tiny CF adapters that completely "eats" the SD Card all the which is a regual CF card size.

Anyway that means a) a "universal" 242-in-1 card reader would be cumbersome (i.e. not very pocketable), b) worst: would NOT be enough because you need to use your cards NOT ONLY with a PC. c) that would imply having to mess with many cross format adapters so you can use card A in a B slot or a C slot, a D slot, etc. AND VICE-VERSA (resulting in an exponential number of adaptors), d) if you forget or loose any of them you're toast. e) the more you have to mess with many adapters, thoe more chances you'll loose or forget them.

Now you also have to explain us why in the world you think YOU "know that a new format is required that is physically smaller than SD."? :roll:

SD is small enough for anything but watch sized electronics, but I don't want to wear 10 watches to 1) hear MP3 songs, 2) take pix (and Casio digicam watches only do 0.032 MPix images :silly:) 4) phone, 5) TV, 6) MM player, 7) etc.

I can see a big advantage going from the 12.5 ccm needed for a CF card, rails and connectors down to 2.5 ccm for the same in the SD format. BUT obviously if you saved 10 ccm from CF to SD, you only gain no more than 1 to 1.5 ccm going anywhere smaller 8O.

Today's cell phones average 100 ccm, PDAs are even quite bigger; so it's easy to see that further gains are negligeable, YET LOSSES WITH NON STANDARD FORMATS ARE HUGE!!!

Jonathon Watkins

03-11-2005, 05:08 PM

Anyway that means a) a "universal" 242-in-1 card reader would NOT be enough

Ummm, you do know I was being ironic, right?

Now you also have to explain us why in the world you think YOU "know that a new format is required that is physically smaller than SD."? :roll:

Because I can see the value of having a smaller card size. The industry certainly realises it. Look at the past 6-odd media card formats. They have all been this size. Mini-SD is this size. If the cards are smaller, you can fir in more battery mass, more electronics etc. I can see which way the wind is blowing. Cars this physical size are going to be produce and will be adopted. The problem I have is with the standards. The two main formats are CF and SD/MMC for smaller devices. The question is, which will emerge as the standard for micro-sized cards?

gibson042

03-11-2005, 05:19 PM

Because I can see the value of having a smaller card size. The industry certainly realises it. Look at the past 6-odd media card formats. They have all been this size. Mini-SD is this size. If the cards are smaller, you can fir in more battery mass, more electronics etc. I can see which way the wind is blowing. Cars this physical size are going to be produce and will be adopted. The problem I have is with the standards. The two main formats are CF and SD/MMC for smaller devices. The question is, which will emerge as the standard for micro-sized cards?
Judging from recent devices, it looks like there will be a split. TransFlash is getting more and more common, but as an internal storage format (under batteries and such). At the same time, I'm seeing a lot of phones and PDAs announced that take miniSD, sometimes exclusively. Any hopes of a "standard" seem, well, unlikely. :(

If we are fortunate enough to see that happen, though, I'm rooting for miniSD. As you point out, it's just as small as all the others. It's already available and already useful. And, best of all, it's not only based on the current de facto standard, but every card comes bundled with an adapter for that standard. Now that's backwards compatibility.

jlp

03-11-2005, 05:34 PM

Anyway that means a) a "universal" 242-in-1 card reader would NOT be enough

Ummm, you do know I was being ironic, right?

YES I do understand 8).

However, as I said with already about a dozen sub SD card standards and the need to use these cards in many devices you would also need many cross format adapters. However the latter will probably never happen, implying you won't be able to use ALL your cards into ALL your devices.

UNLESS like me you standardize ALL your devices AND cards. My next memory cards will be 2x 2GB SD cards and the Panasonic adapter I mentionned previously. And I'll keep those CF cards as backup cards for the Nikon.

This way 1) my PPC, 2) my MP3 player, 3) my prosumer digicam, 4) my casual digicam, 5) my SD-based moviecam (Panasonic SV-AV100) and 6) my next cell phone when I change it will all be able to use my half a dozen SD cards.

EVERYTHING that goes beyond this standard I just disregard; there are NO device that uses another format that doesn't already come with a device using SD cards, period.

Now you also have to explain us why in the world you think YOU "know that a new format is required that is physically smaller than SD."? :roll:

Because I can see the value of having a smaller card size. The industry certainly realises it. Look at the past 6-odd media card formats. They have all been this size. Mini-SD is this size. If the cards are smaller, you can fir in more battery mass, more electronics etc. I can see which way the wind is blowing. Cars this physical size are going to be produce and will be adopted. The problem I have is with the standards. The two main formats are CF and SD/MMC for smaller devices. The question is, which will emerge as the standard for micro-sized cards?

As I just said lengthily, the only advantage for these odd formats, size, is negligeable (saving less than one percent of the total device volume (while CF to SD saved A LOT)). Yet it inherently brings MANY SERIOUS shortcomings.

A value worth considering must bear MUCH MORE advantages and very little if NO shortcomings!!

jlp

03-11-2005, 07:19 PM

This is a side note to my previous post (for which I stand by 200%).

The very arguable keyword you used which had me react is "required".

NO nothing smaller is required !

Nothing smaller is even needed. As I said anything smaller brings sooo little while taking back soooo much.

Now regarding the emerging standard you and others are inquiring or wondering about, what about simply considering the one that already is a defacto standard, small enough, that you can find everywhere in various capacities and that MORE devices use, with enough capacity and speed EVEN for professionals: SD.

Another hint: would you go back to the pre-USB time? where you had about a dozen connectors!

USB is really universal, and one of its most obvious success comes from this universality.

Likewise USB 2.0 being 2 way compatible IS another factor of success: you can plug older, v1.1 peripherals into any USB 2.0 slot (connector), or v2.0 peripherals into v1.1 ones, tho both obviously at v1.1 speeds.

OTOH these litterally :devilboy: sub-standard slots CAN'T take older peripherals, i.e. SD cards.

Videotape became widely spread WHEN VHS became standard. Imagine the mess it would have been if every manufacturer made dozens of different cassette sizes, each touting their unique advantage.

OTOH DVD is really universal because, likewise, you can read mostly every older 8 & 12 cm laser discs in the players.

T-Will

03-11-2005, 08:47 PM

Just what we need, another memory card format!
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/t-will/Forums/rollbarf.gif
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Typhoon

03-11-2005, 09:05 PM

This world sucks. Only expect to see 2024 GB C-Flash cards in 2025 at an "affordable" cost.

bobmay

03-11-2005, 10:14 PM

If such large memory can be made so small, why don't the manufacturers simply install it in each device produced. If my PDA, Camera, or Cell had internal 2TB memory I don't need a "memory slot' or to handle it. I shouldn't have to swap out 2TB to take more pictures. I can probably keep every picture I ever took in the camera for the rest of my life. Think about it, 2TB?

Phoenix

03-11-2005, 11:21 PM

This is getting ridiculous without a doubt.

Here's a thread I started awhile back and just recently added to, to reflect what's currently out there/soon to arrive: Memory Card Formats (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=35423&sid=cb74048dcd18ef97e34e509e4d32ebe1)

Typhoon

03-11-2005, 11:45 PM

There is always talk of technology to help better peoples' lives. Problem is that the technology never comes or comes years later.

Gremmie

03-12-2005, 01:38 AM

Wow, I can't believe so many people care about things that don't affect them. It's clear that memory formats usually do not succeed unless backed by a strong manufacturer of many devices (Sony, Olympus) or a consortium. Calling it "ridiculous" seems to be premature.

MMC was considered "rediculous" as an alternative to SmartMedia...it was too small and not compatible with SmartMedia or CF.

I do not understand this movement against new technological ideas.

jlp

03-12-2005, 02:13 AM

MMC was considered "rediculous" as an alternative to SmartMedia...it was too small and not compatible with SmartMedia or CF.

Exactly right. However MMC/SD DOES offer a great size improvement over CF for just about every one of today's digital device. As stated before a CF slot eats up a whopping 12.5 ccm vs 2.5 ccm for an SD slot. Also keep in mind that the early generations of digicams even used PCMCIA cards (e.g. Canon PowerShot 600), the latter which (the memory card) is even larger than the newer generation of casual digicams (e.g. Sony DSC-T7).

I do not understand this movement against new technological ideas.

"It's better to prevent than to cure"

As I said SD does offer many substantial and tangible values while sub standard cards DON'T.

jimski

03-12-2005, 08:28 AM

Sorry but manufacturers and price are going to dictate what kind of memory format you find in tomorrow's devices, not logic or common sense. While we the consumer may stomp our feet when a new "killer device" is released with another new memory format, we will still be waiting in line for a chance to get our hands on one. And don't think manufacturers are going to let you use your SD cards forever. New format equals more turnover equals more dollars spent. That's the bottom line.

Gremmie

03-12-2005, 08:52 AM

And don't think manufacturers are going to let you use your SD cards forever. New format equals more turnover equals more dollars spent. That's the bottom line.

Can you name an example of manufacturers turning over their formats they support? I can think of Olympus with their Dx card and Handspring, this is far from a trend.

Phoenix

03-12-2005, 02:36 PM

...Calling it "ridiculous" seems to be premature.

MMC was considered "rediculous" as an alternative to SmartMedia...it was too small and not compatible with SmartMedia or CF.

I do not understand this movement against new technological ideas.

Each to his own. I think we're all for technological innovation, so I'm not sure what "movement" you're referring to, but when we have more card formats than we know what to do with, I don't think ridiculous is premature at all. At what point could it be considered so? When we have fifty cards? More? We're not just talking about one new format here, we're talking about the 20+ formats and sizes that we currently have and have been announced.

The average person does not need this many choices. It only clutters the marketplace and confuses consumers. Innovation is good, but it must be balanced out with some standards.

So we have CF, and SD, and MiniSD, and Transflash, going from largest to smallest, respectively. Do cards need to be any smaller? Between formats and sizes and styles, do we really need over twenty different cards to serve the needs of consumers and device manufacturers? Hardly.

In creating new formats, size reduction seems to be the name of the game, but at some point, the cards will only be able to be reduced in size so far before they cease to be practical to handle. I think we're nearing that point. Would it be realistic to think that one day we'll all be handling cards the size of a chad? At some point, and again, for practical reasons, size decreases will have to stop. And then what? Will physical miniaturization taken to its practical limits be what finally determines a final standard? At that point, the argument regarding the need to further reduce card size to make more room for other components inside devices, will finally be put to rest as further reduction in card size will not be possible. What will happen to card innovation then? At that point, I suppose manufacturers will focus primarily on read/write speeds and capacities.

It seems that's where things are headed ultimately, so I stand by my belief that this seemingly neverending race to see who can come out with the smallest card is positively ridiculous.

Jonathon Watkins

03-12-2005, 03:13 PM

Just what we need, another memory card format!

And what a suitable set of emoticons to express that emotion! :wink:

Steve Jordan

03-12-2005, 03:28 PM

NO FAIR... I'm still saving up for my 1GB SD!
Hey, I'm all for denser storage capacity, and almost-terabyte capacity sounds cool to me! I just wish they'd standardize the package, that's all. I have 3 devices that take SD right now. Give me this new capacity in an SD package, and I'm set. Make me replace 3 or more of my devices, and I'm either pissed, poor, or both.

There's a size issue here, too. Too small means easy to lose. If it's smaller than an SD, I think it might as well be built in. (Heyy, I like the idea of a PPC with on-board 100GB storage.)

So... what are these things gonna cost? I'm not made of money, and I have no bank-robbing aptitude.

Jonathon Watkins

03-12-2005, 03:28 PM

EVERYTHING that goes beyond this standard I just disregard; there are NO device that uses another format that doesn't already come with a device using SD cards, period.

I believe that CF will remain the standard for serious camera for a long while, which is why I also want a CF slot in my PPCs for the foreseeable future. I have many CF cards and a few SD cards. Like you, I don't buy anything that doe not support either or both of these standards. I did get a C500 smartphone which uses Mini SD, which at least is compatible with SD with an adaptor. However I sent the phone back after a disagreement with the service provider.

Don;t forget that the SD cards spec tops out at 4Gb and is not very fast, so we do need something to replace SD reasonably soon.

As Jason mentioned, (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=32802&) I can see a need for these new formats/sizes:

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/2003/flashcards.jpg

However, the winning standards for the Mini-SD and Transflash sized media cards will be determined by what the consumers buy. There is still everything to play for.

Jonathon Watkins

03-12-2005, 03:36 PM

Sorry but manufacturers and price are going to dictate what kind of memory format you find in tomorrow's devices, not logic or common sense.

If we refuse to buy them, they won't sell. I have advised many, may folks on consumer electronic over the past years. Over that period I have advised them to only buy devices that support CF or SD cards. I know a fair few folks that have been burned by incompatible card format when they upgraded cameras etc.

And don't think manufacturers are going to let you use your SD cards forever. New format equals more turnover equals more dollars spent. That's the bottom line.

Nothing lasts forever. But SD has a few more years left in it yet, not to mention CF. Devices won't sell if they offer weird and wonderfully proprietary formats. Even Sony are recognising that by supporting CF in their top end digital cameras.

Jonathon Watkins

03-12-2005, 03:44 PM

Wow, I can't believe so many people care about things that don't affect them.

It does affect us. HAving a smaller fragmetned media market is in no-ones interest.

Calling it "ridiculous" seems to be premature.

Nope. Have you seen the numern of new card format annoucemtns we ahve been making over the past year? I had a search at what we've been posting and I found a large number of new card anoucnemtns. THe rate of media format releases has definatley speeded up.

I do not understand this movement against new technological ideas.

This is not a movement against new technological ideas. It is a moment *for* standards.

I have standardised on CF and SD. I may well have to add Mini-SD, depending on my next phone. I will NOT buy any device that does not support these formats. Media cards are expensive and are not a disposable commodity. I will not throw away all my cards when I move onto a new PPC/phone/camera etc.

Most of these newer formats will fail and be discontinued. Pity the folks that buy an expensive media card and can't get a new one when they upgrade or their card dies.

maximus

03-12-2005, 06:08 PM

To me personally, bring on all the new card formats.
The more, the merrier (cheaper).
Next thing we know, a 1G card will only cost $20.

As long as it is equipped with SD adapter, I am fine :)

Typhoon

03-12-2005, 07:41 PM

A cool use of C-Flash would be to put it into an SD card, then use the rest of the space in the SD card for other functions like Wi-Fi or BT, so you have a memory card + extra functionality.

Jonathon Watkins

03-12-2005, 09:03 PM

To me personally, bring on all the new card formats.
The more, the merrier (cheaper).

No Maximus, quite the opposite. If each brand of camera, phone and Pocket PC uses a different media, then the price of media will be far high than we are used to. If they all use the same media, then sure, the economies of scale and competition will kick in, bringing cheaper media. If the market is fragmented, then media will be more expensive.

To Next thing we know, a 1G card will only cost $20.

Maybe at some point. However, they newer format tend to be *more* expensive than older formats. Take a look at the following list. The prices are Expansys own brand, so it's a fair comparison:

£16.95 = 256Mb Compact Flash (http://www.expansys.com/product.asp?code=FC256_H4)
£21.95 = 256Mb SD (http://www.expansys.com/product.asp?code=SD-256)
£22.95 = 256Mb Mini SD (with SD adaptor) (http://www.expansys.com/product.asp?code=116181)
£37.95 = 256Mb Transflash (with SD adaptor) (http://www.expansys.com/product.asp?code=118536)
£45.95 = 256Mb Memory stick (http://www.expansys.com/product.asp?code=108278)

Most of the new proprietary formats will end up like Sony's Memory stick. You will really get gouged over the price and eventually the format will die and you'll be in a technological cul-de-sac. If we have fewer format then we call all use the same cards in different equipment and prices will stay lower due to increased competition.

To As long as it is equipped with SD adapter, I am fine :)

No. If the market fragments, you will get what you are given. It will be Dell's Mini SD, HP's Transflash, Toshiba's C-Flash etc. :| You will have to chose the camera/ Pocket PC / Phone that supports the media you want and your choice will get progressively more constricted and limited.

Media formats are an area that we should have an interest in. If we all decide to only buy CF, SD and maybe Mini SD and perhaps Transflash, then the manufacturers will have to take that into account when designing new equipment. The proliferation of new formats is a bad thing and will only get worse.

Gremmie

03-13-2005, 12:21 AM

jlp

03-13-2005, 01:09 AM

I did get a C500 smartphone which uses Mini SD, which at least is compatible with SD with an adaptor.

That's right. However the problem with these slots, as I said is that they (the slots) don't take current standards, especially SD cards (obviously enough). They lack backward compatibility (unlike DVD players that still take previous media).

Don;t forget that the SD cards spec tops out at 4Gb and is not very fast, so we do need something to replace SD reasonably soon.

Ab-so-lu-te-ly wrong: SD technology tops at thirty-two GB; it's miniSD that tops at 4 GB!! And other substandard technologies do even worst than miniSD

So even here those substandards (at least those in use today) DON'T EVEN MATCH SD, AND FAR FROM THERE!!

As far as speed is concerned and for example, top of the line Panasonic SD cards have a speed of 20 MB/s twice that of the best MemorySH!T cards for example. That's 133x speed!! And obviously enough things will get even better with time as well.

Plenty fast enough for now and the foreseeable future. For comparison purpose I have a quite recent (1.5 year old) 1 GB PQI CF card labeld "Hi-Speed" that only does 20x speed. Compared to the 133x Panasonic SD card, mine is an asthmatic snail!! (I DO understand there are CF cards that are now much faster than mine, too); This just says that SD standard evolves fast in both hi capacities and hi speed.

Tho I'm not sure CF cards are faster than this 133x speed Panasonic SD card 8). OTOH, yes, CF cards offer higher capacities for obvious reasons too.

(* except for C-Flash or μcard, theoretically, but these are just prototypes, far from being commercial).

maximus

03-14-2005, 11:52 AM

Jonathon Watkins

03-14-2005, 02:23 PM

Well, personally if there is a flash standard that is significantly cheaper and faster than SD, I will resign my title as 'SD card hardcore fanatics' and buy the new flash standard .. provided that they have SD card adapter available.

Fair enough, newer standards tend to be faster, but also more expensive.....

So I can just put that cheap 2gigs, 30MB/s transflash card into a SD adapter, and slide it into my PDA or digital camera.

Until they only make PPCs with Mini-SD, Translfash etc. Then you will have a collection of SD cards you can't use with your new equipment. :|

Jonathon Watkins

03-14-2005, 02:38 PM

Jonathon Watkins

03-14-2005, 02:44 PM

The market is not being fragmented, this is being asserted as fact, but is not true. If a product is introduced, but not bought, the market is not being fragmented. Most of the new formats are not being sold because device-makers are not adapting to the new technologies.

That's because we have been fortunate. If other manufactures like Sony chose to unilaterally foist thier standards on us, then the new standard will eventually fail but the market will fragment. How many folks are going to be left behind *when* Sony's memory stick fails? They are in a cul-de-sac, left to the tender mercies of Sony with the incompatible Memory stick versions. It could happen with other manufactures. Just because it has not done so far, does not mean it won't in the future.

With digital cameras, Fuji chose to go with xD cards. That means I will never buy a Fuji and have recommended folks in the strongest possible way not to buy a Fuji . Imagine if Asus went with xD, HP went with Transflash and Dell went with Mini-SD. I don't mind if all the manufactures get together to decide that C-Flash, mini SD or whatever will be the next tiny standard. But they are not dong that. We are ending up with digital island of incompatible media.

My argument is that people are dismissing new technologies without actually looking at them. I find the arguments about the slow transfer speed as interesting, most people ignorantly complain about too many (currently unrealized) formats.

I prefer to think of it as informed warning about too many (potential) formats. :wink:

jlp

03-16-2005, 02:52 AM

I might be wrong, logically the more new standards out there, the better. Supposed we have 20 new standards in competition with the existing SD, CF, etc. ... In the least, this condition will force SD/CF card manufacturer to either :
1. Lower SD/CF retail price, or,
2. Buff up the spec of the SD/CF cards (better speed, better reliability, etc.)

Sorry to disappoint you but reality is just the opposite!!

Because memory card manufacturers produce MANY card formats*, they don't have any incentive to make any one format CONSIDERABLY better than another. Of course as technology advances, things are getting better (speed, capacity and price), but nothing spectacular.

ON THE CONTRARY, since these manufacturers DO produce many card formats* they prefer to sell you substandard cards for a premium rather than advancing other formats radically.

This is the main reason that drives manufacturers to continually invent new formats (TFlash, miniSD, RS-MMC, etc.) NOT because it's required (as I said again and again SD is small enough, fast enough, cheap enough and with enough capacity for now (and more so as advances enhances these) for everything "human-sized") BUT because it offers them more revenues!!!

Simply because we can't easily use the same cards in different devices (there is NO 2 way compatibility), so we have to buy many cards.

"Devide to reign better" is their motto!!!

That is unless we firmly decide to standardize on one format, one that offer the most versatility (the more +++ we all want and the less --- we don't want), namely SD format; and simply zap anything that doesn't conform to it.

(*=with the notable exception of Sony)

Media formats are an area that we should have an interest in. If we all decide to only buy CF, SD and maybe Mini SD and perhaps Transflash, then the manufacturers will have to take that into account when designing new equipment. The proliferation of new formats is a bad thing and will only get worse.

Well, personally if there is a flash standard that is significantly cheaper and faster than SD, I will resign my title as 'SD card hardcore fanatics' and buy the new flash standard .. provided that they have SD card adapter available. So I can just put that cheap 2gigs, 30MB/s transflash card into a SD adapter, and slide it into my PDA or digital camera.

Unfortunately, since smaller casing (TFlash, miniSD, etc.; even SD to a much lesser extent) obviously allows for much less internal volume, therefore you will ALWAYS get at any given moment:
slower controllers,
less memory chip counts therefore lower capacities,
lower quantities produced
and be more difficult to find.[]
therefore come with higher prices

jlp

03-16-2005, 03:41 AM

SD technology tops at thirty-two GB; it's miniSD that tops at 4 GB!!

OK, I must have remembered the wrong max size for the standard.

Here's an intersting roundup about media cards (http://www.livedigitally.com/flash1.html). The author only discusses the six most popular and concludes that SD is the way to go. However:

Probably the only drawback of these cards is their small size which makes them very easy to lose. Even in a plastic case, these cards are still prone to be misplaced in the bottom of a camera bag.

This is absolutely LAME and quite untrue: my SD cases are virtually the same size as my CF cases, so if he'd loose one, he'd loose the other.

Then again if you loose something it doesn't mean it's bad: who never lost their keys at least once? Doesn't mean keys are bad :roll:.

OTOH it means one were "lightheaded" (does it mean what I want it to mean :?). This is why there are keychains and keyrings, wallets, etc. to gather small things that could get lost.

Talking about wallets, SD cards fits so well in a wallet. Other substandard formats are so tiny I would fear to have them escape my fingers when I reach for them (obviously it happens with coins too; however no coin can hold "your life" on them :twisted:).

Personally I like CF cards. I was going to buy a Canon IXUS 700, but they dropped the CF slot for a SD slot. I am therefore thinking of buying an IXUS 500 while I still can. I have a lot of CF cards. I only have one SD card. It makes sense to go with a device that supports the media I already have. I'll get more SD cards when the price on 2 or 4Gb cards drops to a reasonable level. :wink:

I too still have CF cards. However these are 32MB, 48MB, a few 128MB and one single 1GB one. Currently 1GB SD cards are much cheaper than my relatively recent (1.5 yr) 1GB CF at one third of what I paid for it. And I have 2x 256MB SD and 1x 512 MB. Currently you can find fast 1GB SD cards for almost as much as 1GB CF cards, sometimes even lower.

Only advantage for CF: higher capacities: 4 to 12 GB; because of the simple reason I explained many times: larger volume available inside the casing. Incidently this is also related to its bigger disadvantage: won't fit in most of todays smaller electronic devices: cell phones, digicams, moviecams, MP3 players, PDAs, etc. YES, (even except cell phones 8)), you can find other types of devices that use CF; however the smallest amongst them are still larger than the largest ones fitted with SD slots)
- the recent Axim X50 is still larger than the 1.5 yr old X3/X30
- the relatively recent iPod Mini is still larger than 2.5 yr old MPIO FL100
- the recent JVC Everio 100 is still larger than the 1.5 year old Panasonic SV-AV100
- etc.

k1darkknight

10-09-2005, 07:12 AM

Don;t forget that the SD cards spec tops out at 4Gb and is not very fast.
As for the speed, that's one area I'm still trying to figure out, so I don't know much there. However I DID read in another thread (I forget which one) that the '4Gb limit' was a very early typo on some official site or other, which has been quoted MANY times in MANY forums, to a point where most people (who read these forums) consider it a 'fact'. However the poster in this other thread had actually gone so far as to research this on the SD Association's (or whatever) website, and found that 32Gb is the actual, technological limit for SD - at least the current version.
I imagine since we have SDIO, though, that in a couple years, someone might announce at least the ABILITY to make larger SD cards than even 32 GB, using the SDIO specification, or some newer version of the standard SD spec.