Which PPC should I buy? $$$ not an issue.

[Robb Bates]

In anticipation of a huge tax refund, my boss (wife) is allowing me to get a new PPC. Money is not really too much of an issue. (Who gets to say THAT very often?? :mrgreen: )

I currently have an h2215.

Of course I want to get something better than what I have now, but if I want to spend that money wisely, I want to get something SIGNIFICANTLY better.

At the moment my choices are either a Dell x50v or a Loox 720.

Here's the toss up:

Dell pros (Loox cons):
Faster cpu
Cheaper
Graphics accelerator
Sold and supported in US

Loox pros (Dell cons):
USB Host
Camera
More available RAM
Jog dial


With either one, I'll be getting the things I've been missing with my h2215. VGA, more onboard memory, Faster CPU, Wi-Fi.

I think the thing that will decide it for me is: Am I willing to sacrifice a little bit more speed and a graphics processor for a built in camera and USB Host capability? Are those two things REALLY worth it to me?

I'd love to hear love/horror stories about these things from owners of these two devices.

Decisions, decisions!!! HELP ME!!! :?

Robb

[Menneisyys]

Loox pros (Dell cons):
USB Host
Camera
More available RAM
Jog dial

The camera really sucks in the PL720. However, it has some other features too, e.g., CIR; and its screen is far more contrasty and colorful than that of the x50v, which may be an advantage if you like colorful PDA screens.

You may want to check out Deslock's comments at http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=35630&start=20 (the PL720 has the same screen as the hx4700 color/saturation-wise, so what he says is true regarding the PL720 vs. x50v situation too). You may also want to check out the comparative screenshots at http://www.firstloox.org/forums/showpost.php?p=18291&postcount=14 .

[Robb Bates]

So the two screens are subtly different. I went from a 1910 to a 2215. The 1910 is supposed to be better than the 2215, but I really haven't seen anything to complain about the 2215. I guess that will be similar to the Loox vs. Dell.

I think the biggest thing that is going to bother me is the fact that the Loox doesn't have a graphics processor. Couple that with the slower CPU and I'm afraid it might add up to poor graphics performance. Since I have a 2215, which has scored low in graphics performance, I don't want to go from bad to bad. That makes me lean towards the Dell.

As far as the camera being sucky, it's still far better than my phone's camera. Better to have 1.3 megapixels of fuzzy cloudy picture than 0.1 megapixels of fuzzy cloudy picture. I've seen some full size unedited pictures taken with the Loox and they're of sufficient quality for me not to turn it down. Not to mention that being able to take video with the Loox is cool.

The CIR is nice, but I don't use the one in my 2215 anyway. Probably because I don't like Nevo.

But are the camera, CIR and USB host just going to be cool features I'll never use except to impress fellow geeks?

The more I discuss this, the more the scale tilts towards the Dell.

Any Loox fanatics willing to tilt it the other way?

Robb

[ADBrown]

For the record, the Axim includes CIR too. And you're right that the difference between the two screens is not ultra-noticible.

I've been playing with the Asus A730W for a little over a month now, and I've come to realize that USB Host isn't a big deal. Attaching a hard drive isn't all that useful when you need to tether it to a wall socket for power. There are exceptions for some people, I'm sure, but for the most part I'm not convinced it's worth it.

[Robb Bates]

CIR on the Dell? Cool. Now I just have to find a decent Remote Control porgram. I don't like Nevo.

USB Host ain't all that useful... That's what I figured as well. I really can't think of an everyday use for it other than attaching a flash drive to it. But I just bought a super small USB SD card reader, so that's a non-issue now.

OK folks, so now someone has to kill the camera and it's a Dell for me.

Robb

[surur]

Dont forget the Loox has a much large battery than the Dell.

The main question really is your intended usage pattern. If you tell us how you use your device mainly or intend to do in the future we can tell you which one to buy.

Surur
(Happy Loox owner)

[kozak]

I'd go for a dell X50v and use the leftover cash for a Sandisk CF Ultra II 8GB card and HP or Toshiba Bluetooth Headphones. Perfect setup for anything you want to do. Also, an iTreck Bluetooth GPS reciever with OnCourse Navigator 4.

Can't ask for anything more then that.

[Robb Bates]

The main question really is your intended usage pattern. If you tell us how you use your device mainly or intend to do in the future we can tell you which one to buy.

Good suggestion.

I'm a bit of a power user/geek, so I'm always trying the latest greatest feature/hack/program, etc.

I'll tell you how I use my current PPC. Of course, new features will mean new uses, so depending on which one I get will mean I'll use it differently.


At least daily:
Use general PIM features; Calendar, Contacts, Notes, etc.
Listen to several archived radio shows with Real One.
Maintain finances with Cash Organizer.
Do calculations for work with Calc98.
Surf the internet via bluetooth/GPRS.
Read electronics datasheets with Acrobat reader.
Check the weather forecast with Pocket Weather.

At least weekly:
Play around with some DOS programs is PocketDOS.
Play games in PocketNester, GameBox Classics, etc.
Text Message via bluetooth/cellphone.
Take notes with folding keyboard.
Get driving directions with Mapopolis.

What I think I'll do depending on new PPC:
Surf/Sync/email/print via Wi-fi at school and work
Watch recorded videos (I can do that right now, but don't much)
Take pictures/videos (if I get the Loox)

I suspect I won't use the USB Host regularly, but I might use the camera.
I'm also going to try to get Win98 working with PocketDOS (I'm so close) so I can on rare occasion use a specific Desktop Windows only program.

Robb

[surur]

I think the Loox might be for you. A USB gamepad driver has been written for the Loox, meaning you can use any cheap gamepad to improve your gaming experience. You could also plug most cheap USB keyboards into the Loox when you feel like using a fullsized keyboard.

Additionally if you have or ever buy an ipod/iriver/i-etc HD based mp3 player there is a good chance it will work with the loox. This will allow you to keep ALL your archived shows on hand vs only the ones fitting on your CF card. The jog dial is also useful to map to volume and if you read ebooks etc.

All in all, if you like to fiddle around (as seen by your pocketdos adventure) you will get much more traction from the USB host than from a graphics coprocessor. People have been able to print via USB from this device, which is way cool.

All in all, the Loox just has more features, while the Dell is a nice but boring PPC.

Surur

[Robb Bates]

OK, so what about the lack of a graphics accelerator on the Loox?

There are a few programs that bog down from poor graphics performance on my h2215. If I'm upgrading, I'd want better performance out of these.

Windows Media Player. Full screen video.
FPSEce Playstation Emulator
Real One video
PocketTV
most 3D games

Performance varies with each of these, but in general, it's not as good as I'd like it to be.

I know there are some programs like BetaPlayer and PocketTV that have optimized code for certain video drivers. But BetaPlayer does DivX/Xvid and PocketTV does MPEG. What about WMV or RealVideo? What is the performance like for these two formats?

Also, it's my understanding that the accelerator in the Dell is getting some growing support in the development community. What about the Loox's graphics driver?


Robb

[surur]

The Dell is wonderful with video. If that is your primary intended use you should get one. You should also get an extra battery though, as the small battery will let you down sooner rather than later.

Most of your video software will not be optimised for the Dell however e.g. Real one, most 3d games, windows media player or your emulator. Dell still only has 10-15% PPC marketshare.

The loox is quite adequate for video. Over wifi I can stream about 1.2Mb/second without buffering. The Dell is better in this regard and can stream at a higher bitrate, which often means you wont have to re-encode any video you recorded (or downloaded) to watch on your pc for use on your pocketpc. Picard from betaplayer has however done a wonderful job optimising betaplayer for general use also, and apparently the current version (0.5) works very well on the Loox.

As Ive said, it depends on your intended use. If video is your PRIMARY intended use then the Dell is certainly the better choice. Just get a bigger battery though.

Surur

[Ripper014]

I think the things that you will notice as the biggest limitations on the Dell will be the battery life and ram. These are hard factors... the graphics chip will depend on how well it continues to develope... for now I believe only a handful of companies are making use of it.

If you are not in a big hurry you may wish to wait... I imagine that a 128mb ram x50V can only be around the corner.

Otherwise... I would definitely go with the Loox.

[ADBrown]

Kozak, pray tell, where are you finding a 8 GB CF card for less than $680?

OK, so what about the lack of a graphics accelerator on the Loox?

There are a few programs that bog down from poor graphics performance on my h2215. If I'm upgrading, I'd want better performance out of these.

Windows Media Player. Full screen video.
FPSEce Playstation Emulator
Real One video
PocketTV
most 3D games

Performance varies with each of these, but in general, it's not as good as I'd like it to be.

I know there are some programs like BetaPlayer and PocketTV that have optimized code for certain video drivers. But BetaPlayer does DivX/Xvid and PocketTV does MPEG. What about WMV or RealVideo? What is the performance like for these two formats?

Also, it's my understanding that the accelerator in the Dell is getting some growing support in the development community. What about the Loox's graphics driver?

If you're interested in emulation, you should know that the X50v, when you use the GAPI tweak, has by far the best Graphics API performance of any VGA PocketPC. This is important for games and emulators that have been designed for QVGA devices. If I recall the benchmarks, the X50v with tweak scores a 3870 on Spb Benchmark's Graphics Index, while the nearest competitor is barely over 1000. Also, some emulators are edging towards supporting the 3D accelerator in the X50v, so that would be a huge boost.

WMV performs well on practically anything. I have no idea about RealVideo.

Yes, there's some development going on for the Intel 2700G. The more advanced, fluid programs like emulators will probably be first, followed by standalone games.

The Loox doesn't have a graphics accelerator, so it has no special driver. What you see is what you get.

By the way, if you want to try and run a full-scale Windows OS, I'd suggest you try out Bochs. It's a desktop PC emulator ported to the PocketPC. I doubt you'll ever get enough performance to make a program usable, but you'd probably have a better shot than with PocketDOS.

http://mamaich.kasone.com/fr_pocket.htm

[ADBrown]

It's not likely that a 128 MB X50v is right around the corner. Dell usually gives their products a good longevity, so I wouldn't expect to see anything that would replace or surpass the X50v until late Autumn at the earliest.

Robb, as for what you said about the camera, if it's really important to you you can get a Veo Photo Traveler 130S SDIO camera for a little over $80. It's 1.3 MP, takes video, and seems to take pretty good photos:

http://www.to-tech.com/mobileviews/merlin/reviews/cfcams/Veo130S/flower.jpg

http://www.to-tech.com/mobileviews/merlin/reviews/cfcams/Veo130S/mountain.jpg

http://www.to-tech.com/mobileviews/merlin/reviews/cfcams/Veo130S/tree.jpg

[surur]

Robb, as for what you said about the camera, if it's really important to you you can get a Veo Photo Traveler 130S SDIO camera for a little over $80. It's 1.3 MP, takes video, and seems to take pretty good photos:


One more thing to carry. You may as well buy this then for the same price and get a real camera with 2 mega-pixels and a proper lens.

http://www.merchantamerica.com/discountedelectronics/index.php?ba=product_enlarge&product=45179
http://www.merchantamerica.com/discountedelectronics/986228723.jpg

There are also a variety of probably larger cameras for cheaper, but probably better quality. I think Robb is looking for the convenience of a built-in solution however.

On a side-note, the Loox is able to access a few cameras via USB too.

Surur

[Menneisyys]

So the two screens are subtly different. I went from a 1910 to a 2215. The 1910 is supposed to be better than the 2215, but I really haven't seen anything to complain about the 2215. I guess that will be similar to the Loox vs. Dell.


The 1910 is indeed way better than the 2210, but this can only be seen if you watch/use photos/apps with a lot of warm colors. The screen of a lot of 2210 devices also 'flicker' (as if it had low refresh rate), but that doesn't irritate everybody.

I think the biggest thing that is going to bother me is the fact that the Loox doesn't have a graphics processor. Couple that with the slower CPU and I'm afraid it might add up to poor graphics performance. Since I have a 2215, which has scored low in graphics performance, I don't want to go from bad to bad. That makes me lean towards the Dell.

The ATI GPU has nothing to do with overall graphics performance. The 2210 is a vey snappy device in mundane tasks like scrolling - actually, far better at that, than the GPU-enabled, say, Toshiba e740, which is pretty slow (largely due to the PXA250+PPC2k2 combo). Also, it's FAR faster at scrolling e.g. the Programs screen than the hx4700, which is a 624MHz device with ATI.

Te PL720 is similar to this: there's no real gfx slowdown because of the lack of GPU. At least, it is not significantly slower at browsing Programs.

Certainly the 2700g is a different beast. ATI chips, in general, don't contribute much to the overall snappyness of a device; the Intel 2700g, on the other hand, does.

As far as the camera being sucky, it's still far better than my phone's camera. Better to have 1.3 megapixels of fuzzy cloudy picture than 0.1 megapixels of fuzzy cloudy picture. I've seen some full size unedited pictures taken with the Loox and they're of sufficient quality for me not to turn it down. Not to mention that being able to take video with the Loox is cool.

OIC. The loox camera is certainly better than (most) mobile phone cameras. For example, my t610 produces totally useless images. However, some later Nokia / Motorola cameras (e.g., that of the mpx220) are certainly better than the PL720 camera. (Still, an ultra-compact digicam is the way to go if you want real pics - a Canon Digital Ixus or even a HP R707).

[Menneisyys]

It's not likely that a 128 MB X50v is right around the corner. Dell usually gives their products a good longevity, so I wouldn't expect to see anything that would replace or surpass the X50v until late Autumn at the earliest.

Robb, as for what you said about the camera, if it's really important to you you can get a Veo Photo Traveler 130S SDIO camera for a little over $80. It's 1.3 MP, takes video, and seems to take pretty good photos:

http://www.to-tech.com/mobileviews/merlin/reviews/cfcams/Veo130S/flower.jpg

http://www.to-tech.com/mobileviews/merlin/reviews/cfcams/Veo130S/mountain.jpg

http://www.to-tech.com/mobileviews/merlin/reviews/cfcams/Veo130S/tree.jpg

These images ARE good, even when compared to decent, 250+ US$ ultra-compact cameras. Almost no purple fringing (which is the biggest prob with mst cheap cameras) / off-colors. Their only problem is the softness and blurriness at the sides/edges, but that's the problem of all cheap(er) camera lens.

[Menneisyys]

One more thing to carry. You may as well buy this then for the same price and get a real camera with 2 mega-pixels and a proper lens.

http://www.merchantamerica.com/discountedelectronics/index.php?ba=product_enlarge&product=45179
http://www.merchantamerica.com/discountedelectronics/986228723.jpg


A REAL camera - a Mustek? :) Get a low-end, cheap Nikon (e.g., 2000/2200) then, they produce far better images outdoors than any Mustek model at the expense of size.

[Menneisyys]

Attaching a hard drive isn't all that useful when you need to tether it to a wall socket for power.

There're 2.5" HDD cases with built-in batteries - almost all photobanks are like this. Furthermore, dedicated, 1.8" HDD-based MP3/MM players (iRiver, iPod etc) all have great battery life - they're working perfect with any USB host-enabled PPC. I use my battery-enabled MamboX 2.5" 60Gbyte photobank with my PL720 a lot - it's cool to have 40-50 Gbytes of videos on my hard disk that can be accessed and viewed at once.

[Menneisyys]

Most of your video software will not be optimised for the Dell however e.g. Real one, most 3d games, windows media player or your emulator. Dell still only has 10-15% PPC marketshare.

RealOne has indeed seems to have stopped developing the PPC version of Real client some 2 years ago (their 1.1 "beta" is still their latest version), so I don't think they'll ever support 2700g (or any advanced hardware).

However, BetaPlayer, which is heavily optimized for the 2700g, plays almost anything (except for RealOne's stuff).