Using phone keyboard as a bluetooth keyboard?

[yowzator]

This might be a strange question, and my guess is that it isn't currently possible. But it seems like this would be a nice feature to build into future products and I'd like to know what others think about it.

Would it be possible to use the built-in thumb keyboard on some of the new phones that are coming out as a wireless bluetooth keyboard for a Pocket PC? For instance, if I owned a Nokia 6822 or some future version of the LG F1900 that has bluetooth, would it be possible it make a connection to my Pocket PC and use the phone's keyboard as a bluetooth keyboard?

I have yet to find the perfect Pocket PC, and I'm certainly not thrilled with the Phone Editions that have been released so far. Until someone releases a PPC phone with the form factor of an ipaq 4150 or smaller, include WiFi and Bluetooth, at least 128MB, SDIO slot, decent battery life, fast CPU, no CF slot to keep it thin, VGA screen, and a built-in keyboard, I'm just not going to be very thrilled. Obviously, the built-in keyboard would make the device bigger than a 4150, but I'd like it to still be as compact as possible.

There are lots of devices with many of these specs, but none that I am aware of that include all of them. So in the meantime, I'm carrying a bluetooth cell phone and bluetooth PPC. And now I'm thinking about getting a bluetooth keyboard as well. I don't like the idea of carting around three devices when what I really want is just one.

So, in the interest of sticking with just two devices, I thought it would be cool to get a phone with a built-in keyboard, especially if it was possible to use that keyboard on the PPC.

Let me know if this feature is already available and I just am not aware of it. Also, I'd like to know if you think it would be a useful feature for phone manufacturers to add to their handsets.

[Menneisyys]

Highly unlikely because the current PPC BT stacks (not even 1.2 ones) don't support HID, which is essential to implement BT keyboard functionality.

So, you need explicit WinCE support from a BT keyboard manufacturer to be absolutely sure it'll work.

This is why, by the way, for example, the TO StowAway BT keyboard needs a "hack" to implement some kind of HID functionality (using (and occupying) the standard BT serial port service in the background). This driver is specific to the TO keyboard and won't work with other ones.

[yowzator]

So, you need explicit WinCE support from a BT keyboard manufacturer to be absolutely sure it'll work.

Thanks for the response. I figured something like this would probably not be possible. It just seems like it would be a good idea to me.

However, I don't see why if a phone manufacturer wanted a "bluetooth keyboard" to be a feature of their phone, why could they not also provide the appropriate device drivers, hacks, or whatever is necessary, just as the TO StowAway does?

[Menneisyys]

So, you need explicit WinCE support from a BT keyboard manufacturer to be absolutely sure it'll work.

Thanks for the response. I figured something like this would probably not be possible. It just seems like it would be a good idea to me.

However, I don't see why if a phone manufacturer wanted a "bluetooth keyboard" to be a feature of their phone, why could they not also provide the appropriate device drivers, hacks, or whatever is necessary, just as the TO StowAway does?

You can't expect e.g. Nokia or Sony-Ericsson (both Symbian manufacturers) to provide WinCE drivers - that would clearly be against their interests :) And they may not have in-house WinCE expertise either. I've, for example, checked out if Nokia needs WinCE experts (not that I would work for them for their quite low salaries ;) ): nope.

[yowzator]

You can't expect e.g. Nokia or Sony-Ericsson (both Symbian manufacturers) to provide WinCE drivers - that would clearly be against their interests :) And they may not have in-house WinCE expertise either. I've, for example, checked out if Nokia needs WinCE experts (not that I would work for them for their quite low salaries ;) ): nope.

Well, can't argue that! :wink: But what about someone like Samsung, Audiovox, or some other WinCE supporting company that makes normal handsets too? I'm sure it will never happen, but I like the concept. My ideal PPC/phone combo will probably be released before this concept ever sees the light of day.

At least I now know that such a beast doesn't exist and that it is unlikely to ever exist. Now I just need to decide if I should carry around 3 devices (phone, PDA, and keyboard), or cripple my productivity with a PDA/phone combo with less than optimal memory, screen, etc.

[GSmith]

I would be willing to investigate writing the Pocket PC portion of this (using serial BT) if someone can voluteer to investigate the Nokia portion (or point me to a specification). I've got a Nokia 6820.

[Menneisyys]

At least I now know that such a beast doesn't exist and that it is unlikely to ever exist. Now I just need to decide if I should carry around 3 devices (phone, PDA, and keyboard), or cripple my productivity with a PDA/phone combo with less than optimal memory, screen, etc.

A solution may be getting e.g. a Symbian phone instead of a "dumb" one. The TO SA BT keyboard supports Symbian, as well as WinCE. And, Symbian has a lot of great apps. - the best of the three worlds :)

[Menneisyys]

I would be willing to investigate writing the Pocket PC portion of this (using serial BT) if someone can voluteer to investigate the Nokia portion (or point me to a specification). I've got a Nokia 6820.

BTW, could you write Microsoft BT stack support for the SA keyboard?

[GSmith]

I doubt I could do that. My thought is the the BT HID profile would not be required for 6820 keyboard support. My hypothetical solution would require the writing of a custom application for the 6820.

[Menneisyys]

I doubt I could do that. My thought is the the BT HID profile would not be required for 6820 keyboard support. My hypothetical solution would require the writing of a custom application for the 6820.

No full (or not even partial? Dunno...) HID implementattion is needed on the PPC part, just a subset (or not even that). The TO SA keyboard, for example, uses the plain serial port BT profile officially.

[GSmith]

I didn't know that. In that case, possibly, but I'd have to have a keyboard to test with. And before that, I'd need to look at what is necessary on the Windows Mobile side. If it's a bluetooth keyboard, I'm not sure why they don't have a Windows Mobile driver for it in the first place. Interesting.

[GSmith]

Wait... Why are we even talking about the TO Stowaway BT??!?!?! It already has a BT Driver that works with many more than just the following. Obviously, if it's already available, I wouldn't bother.

PocketPC OS Asus
MyPalA620*, MyPalA620BT, MyPalA716

*Requires Socket BT CF or SD Card

Compaq iPaq
3900*, 3970

*May require Socket BT CF or SD Card

Dell Axim
X3*, X30*, X30BT, X3i*, X3iBT, X5*, x50v

*Requires Socket BT CF or SD card

HP iPaq
1910*, 1930*, 1940, 1945, 2210, 2215, 3900*, 3970, 4100, 4150, 4155, 4300, 4350, 4355, 5100, 5400*, 5400BT, 5450, 5500*, 5500BT, 5555, 6300, 6315, H6340, HX4700, HX4705, RX3100, RZ1715

*Requires Socket BT CF or SD Card

[Menneisyys]

Wait... Why are we even talking about the TO Stowaway BT??!?!?! It already has a BT Driver that works with many more than just the following. Obviously, if it's already available, I wouldn't bother.

It doesn't support any device with the Microsoft BT stack (unfortunately, there're quite a few of them; of the more recent models, the I-mate Jam and a lot of PPC PE devices). Same stands for the Toshi e830.

Now, about TO's list:

HP iPaq
1910*, 4100, 5400*, 5400BT, 5500*, 5500BT, 6300, RZ1715

At last, ThinkOutside has implemented that is NOT possible to implement: SDIO for the 1910 ;) BTW, did anyone hear of the other "iPAQ" devices (esp. with the BT suffix)? And, did you know that the 1715 also have built-in BT (no asterisk)? :)

EDIT: at first, I've mentioned the TO SA BT keyboard to show that, much as not even the Widcomm BT stack supports HID officially, TO has managed to 'hack' HID(-like?) support into the system. The subject of the thread is Nokia's BT keyboard.

[Sven Johannsen]

I realize it is still another thing to carry, but if you are willing to use a built-in cell phone thumboard, why wouldn't you just go with a PPC add-on thumboard for now, or go with a 4355?

[yowzator]

I'm encouraged by where this discussion is going. It sounds like this might be possible to do without even getting the support of the handset manufacturers. But are we talking about just supporting this feature for a single phone, or for a whole class of phones? For example, if GSmith wrote an application for the 6820, would it run on other Sybian phones? Would it work with newer models in the 682X line, like the 6822?

If I'm reading this correctly, there would be two components to the project. The first would be a Symbian-based application that would run on the Nokia 682X. This app would capture the phone's keyboard input and pass it via Bluetooth to a paired device. The second component would be some sort of driver or hack for Windows Mobile that would allow external keyboard input via Bluetooth, most likely using a serial port BT profile if the PDA doesn't support BT HID.

Obviously, I think this would be a great application even if it only worked for a single phone with a single PPC model. However, it would ultimately be best if several different handsets and any BT enabled PPC could be used. Any thoughts on how this could be implemented in a way that doesn't lock it into certain devices?

[yowzator]

I realize it is still another thing to carry, but if you are willing to use a built-in cell phone thumboard, why wouldn't you just go with a PPC add-on thumboard for now, or go with a 4355?

That is just the issue. If I add a thumboard, that is three devices. Yet another thing to misplace, lose, break, forget at home, etc. If I have a cell phone with a thumboard that could be used, I'm only carrying two. Since I'm already carrying two, I'm not increasing the number of devices to carry around by just changing to a phone with a thumboard.

I've seriously considered the 4355, but in the end I decided that the length was just too long. The 4155 is the perfect size as far as I'm concerned. To me, changing from a tiny Sony Ericsson phone to a fairly small Nokia 6822 wouldn't have as much of an impact as changing from a 4155 to a 4355.

Ultimately, I only want to carry one device and would like it to be as compact as possible. But all of the existing devices have drawbacks that I would find it hard to live with. I figure something that I'll like will surface in the next year or so.

[Phillip Dyson]

[quote=GSmith]
It doesn't support any device with the Microsoft BT stack (unfortunately, there're quite a few of them; of the more recent models, the I-mate Jam and a lot of PPC PE devices). Same stands for the Toshi e830.

{snip}

EDIT: at first, I've mentioned the TO SA BT keyboard to show that, much as not even the Widcomm BT stack supports HID officially, TO has managed to 'hack' HID(-like?) support into the system. The subject of the thread is Nokia's BT keyboard.

Its good to know that the e830 isn't the only one that has trouble with the TO SA Keyboard. I was beginning to fear that I made a mistake in buying it.

The HID explanation is the first time anyone has given me enough info to understand the problem.
So, I wonder if this means the Freedom Keyboard wont work either.

[Menneisyys]

Its good to know that the e830 isn't the only one that has trouble with the TO SA Keyboard. I was beginning to fear that I made a mistake in buying it.

The HID explanation is the first time anyone has given me enough info to understand the problem.
So, I wonder if this means the Freedom Keyboard wont work either.

Natively, I don't think the Freedom/Brando etc. (the're all Chainpus rebrands) keyboards are supported by the built-in stack.

However, you can get an additional CF BT card (not the cleanest/cheapest solution, but works). For example, the Belkin CF card supports the SA BT units. See e.g. http://discussion.brighthand.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=114590