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footdoc
12-15-2004, 07:27 PM
Help! I am in the market for a new PDA. I have narrowed it down to the HP IPAQ 4705 or the Dell X50v. I admit to being very uneducated in handheld but want to hear from users of these two devices

famousdavis
12-15-2004, 07:51 PM
I have the X50v. It's a great device. The feel of the device is very good -- solid, contoured bottom edges, it feels good holding it. The screen is excellent -- bright, sharp, vivid. The performance is very good and reliable. The screen does seem less sensitive than my old iPAQ 1910, so typing long sentences using the soft keyboard is not as reliable because some characters aren't recognized when I don't tap them just right. The stylus doesn't retract as easily as I'd like. The audio performance is excellent -- very loud volume, sounds great. The wireless performance is good, although an occasional glitch requires me to do a soft reset before using the wireless connection after switching it on and then off again. I would buy the device again, and am very pleased overall.

ADBrown
12-15-2004, 08:26 PM
Help! I am in the market for a new PDA. I have narrowed it down to the HP IPAQ 4705 or the Dell X50v. I admit to being very uneducated in handheld but want to hear from users of these two devices

I've had both, and I prefer the X50v. While it has less battery power than the 4700, it's smaller, more comfortable to hold, has better controls, better hardware, more style, and is cheaper.

jickbahtech
12-15-2004, 08:27 PM
The 4700 is a pretty nice handheld, but if you're interested in playing games at all, I would recommend the X50v. The 4700's touchpad isnt really supported.
Also for largely the same hardware, you can usually find an X50 for about $100 bucks less than a 4700 (the price of a couple memory cards or a really nice case). So really its just gonna come down to what you value.
Good luck hunting and welcome to the wonderful world of PPC's.

bigkingfun
12-15-2004, 09:11 PM
I've got the x50v and I'm really happy with it. The deciding factor for me versus the 4700 was the size. The x50v has the features that were important to me (CF & SD slots, VGA) but is considerably smaller than the 4700. I've been an iPAQ user for a long time, so it was a tough decision to try Dell, but I'm glad I did.

Ripper014
12-15-2004, 09:54 PM
I would choose neither... both devices only have 64mb of ram onboard... depending on where you are... I assume North America I would look at the Asus a730W or the Toshiba e830... If you are in Europe then the model to look at is the Loox 720...

IMHO these three models have much more to offer than the 2 that you are looking at... I will concede though that the Dell is the smallest/cheapest... and the Hp may have the slightly better screen and processor... but overall... these three are better choices. Both the Asus a730W and Loox 720 are small devices as well and the Toshiba can be had at a good price. Currently $549can... or with todays exchange rate... $444.53us...

ignar
12-15-2004, 11:00 PM
The 4700 is a pretty nice handheld, but if you're interested in playing games at all, I would recommend the X50v. The 4700's touchpad isnt really supported.
Also for largely the same hardware, you can usually find an X50 for about $100 bucks less than a 4700 (the price of a couple memory cards or a really nice case). So really its just gonna come down to what you value.
Good luck hunting and welcome to the wonderful world of PPC's.

What? Where did you find X50v is $100 cheaper than 4705? I always find X50v is at least $200 cheaper than 4705. :mrgreen:

I have both as well, and prefer X50v. Size, touchpad, and price of 4705 turn me off.

famousdavis
12-15-2004, 11:05 PM
I would choose neither... both devices only have 64mb of ram onboard...

You're presuming carte blanche that everyone needs 64MB in a handheld device. That's an overreaching presumption, I think. Thus far, the only problem I have with 64MB of RAM is I can't view my unoptimized personal website that's chock full of unoptimized, high quality pictures on a single web page. There may be other reasons I'll regret not having a 64MB device, but a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, and I'd rather have a cheaper/smaller device now, and grow into a device with more RAM if-and-when I need to. I lived happily for over 18mos. on my non-wireless iPAQ 1910, and only recently felt that I could also benefit from wireless connectivity. I may never find a need for more than 64MB, or if I do, PPCs will have evolved in many ways that will make jumping to a new device better in many ways.

;-)

surur
12-16-2004, 12:22 AM
I would choose neither... both devices only have 64mb of ram onboard... depending on where you are... I assume North America I would look at the Asus a730W or the Toshiba e830... If you are in Europe then the model to look at is the Loox 720...

IMHO these three models have much more to offer than the 2 that you are looking at... I will concede though that the Dell is the smallest/cheapest... and the Hp may have the slightly better screen and processor... but overall... these three are better choices. Both the Asus a730W and Loox 720 are small devices as well and the Toshiba can be had at a good price. Currently $549can... or with todays exchange rate... $444.53us...

It seems many many people wont consider a device if it's not made by HP or Dell. The brand name means more to them than features. I guess I could understand it to a degree if the other brands were largely unknown like Medion etc, but the FSC and ASUS brands are quite well known and have been around for a long time.

Maybe people could enlighten me why they chose to restrict their options and settle for second best, when there are better choices available.

Surur

(as for a reason for >64 MB - Bluetooth headphones! As soon as they become generally available I'm getting some!)

ignar
12-16-2004, 12:35 AM
I will seriously consider Loox if it's available and supported in the US. I have nothing against Asus, but they haven't released a Wifi/BT unit yet, and I guess people are getting tired of waiting.

Ripper014
12-16-2004, 12:55 AM
To address the 64mb ram issue... I can start with my own experience...with a Hp2200... I started with 53..?? mb of usable ram... and I am now down to about 16mb total available. There are certain applications that you really need to run directly from the device... Agenda Fusion in my case... Pocket Informant in many others... if I could I would also load Textmaker and Planmaker directly into my device.

With the Dell I believe that although they say 64mb of ram... there is only about 46mb available to the user... so you have even less than you think. I came across a problem recently where it seems that Atlantis Redux requires not only that you have 120mb available storage space on a card... but 20mb of free ram for it to run. There are a few applications that require a significant amount of ram... and starting with 46mb does not leave you much.

If you want to check this chart... you can compare yourself... I guess you get what you pay for... with the exception that the Hx4700 is way overpriced... IMHO...


http://www.vgapocketpc.com/vga-pocket-pc-comparison.php


The best overall unit (IMHO) is the Loox 720... the Asus a730W shows promise and the local distributer is saying it will start shipping Dec 20... the best overall value I think is the Toshiba e830, costing $549can it offers alot for the money. The Hx4700 out performs the Dell x50V but then you are paying a lot more money for it. The Dell suffers from a small battery as does the Asus... but the Asus is offering a free extra battery and usb cable for free right now with your purchase.

So... I guess... like always there is not really a definitive answer... to each their own... and we tend to think what we have is the best... In my case I am still deciding so I think I am not too bias... and although I would like the Loox 720... I will probably settle for the Toshiba e830... since I have recently become a poor student again.

ADBrown
12-16-2004, 03:46 AM
It seems many many people wont consider a device if it's not made by HP or Dell. The brand name means more to them than features. I guess I could understand it to a degree if the other brands were largely unknown like Medion etc, but the FSC and ASUS brands are quite well known and have been around for a long time.

Maybe people could enlighten me why they chose to restrict their options and settle for second best, when there are better choices available.

Surur

(as for a reason for >64 MB - Bluetooth headphones! As soon as they become generally available I'm getting some!)

You're blindly assuming that the 64 MB devices are 'second best.' None of the 128 MB models have the 2700G graphics system for 3D acceleration and hardware video decoding. To my knowledge only the Toshiba has VGA output, and even that doesn't support live video playback. None of them have 128 MB of safe, fast flash ROM, which I prefer over volatile RAM.

The e830 isn't available in the U.S., the A730W isn't available anywhere, and the Loox 720 is hard to come by outside Europe. For these reasons and others, not only is it hard to get units, it's even harder to get service and support for them.

And what do Bluetooth headphones have to do with 128 MB of RAM?

Ripper014
12-16-2004, 08:36 AM
There is nothing safe about ROM... like anything else in life it can become defective... and there is nothing fast about it. From what I have seen... data transfer from CF cards is faster than from ROM...

As for RAM... the DELL only has 46mb free for the user... a far cry from the listed 64mb... I am not sure what is available for the Hx but my guess is no more than 53mb...

I finally picked up the Toshiba e830 tonight as my Christmas Gift... I believe I got a device with a great set of features for a very reasonable price.

As for the 2700G Graphics Chipset it has yet to be proven... unfortunately unless it gets support from the software community it will be a white elephant... The downside IMHO is that it is only in one device currently... and until the platform gets wider... I think the software vendors will shy away from it... there just is not enough marketshare for them to expend their resources. And the main advantage would be for games and multimedia... secondary reasons for owning a PocketPC...

True the Toshiba is not available in the US... nor the Loox... but both can be purchased through third parties... service and support I think is over-rated... You will still be able to download any drivers etc... from a Canadian website... and support can be have on boards such as this... 95% of the time the information is better than from tech support.

The only real issue is warranty... and you should be able to work that out with the vendor... I am sure that it would be under warranty... you would just have to do it through Canada. Admit it... your looking for an excuse to come visit anyway... ;)

surur
12-16-2004, 09:14 AM
And what do Bluetooth headphones have to do with 128 MB of RAM?

Many people have found they need at least 20MB free memory to use bluetooth headphones. It has prompted many Dell owners to think of the memory upgrade.

Regarding the video chip, yes, that is a plus feature for the Dell, but as yet unproven as necessary, and only of use with games, whereas memory shortage might hit you anywhere.

And availability and support dos not change which is the better unit, only which one you would be prepared to wait for or take on. I believe expansys-usa is selling the Loox locally.

Surur

ADBrown
12-16-2004, 11:32 PM
There is nothing safe about ROM... like anything else in life it can become defective... and there is nothing fast about it. From what I have seen... data transfer from CF cards is faster than from ROM...

Incorrect. Flash ROM is safe against hard resets, and the chances of it being defective are so low that it's almost laughable to bring it up. Also, internal flash is considerably faster than any memory card not rated at 60x or higher.

As for RAM... the DELL only has 46mb free for the user... a far cry from the listed 64mb... I am not sure what is available for the Hx but my guess is no more than 53mb...

Actually, the Axim has 49 MB and change available to the user at any given time. And I suspect you would see that the 128 MB models shave off a little RAM too.

I finally picked up the Toshiba e830 tonight as my Christmas Gift... I believe I got a device with a great set of features for a very reasonable price.

I'm glad for you. But don't think that everybody has your needs.

As for the 2700G Graphics Chipset it has yet to be proven... unfortunately unless it gets support from the software community it will be a white elephant... The downside IMHO is that it is only in one device currently... and until the platform gets wider... I think the software vendors will shy away from it... there just is not enough marketshare for them to expend their resources. And the main advantage would be for games and multimedia... secondary reasons for owning a PocketPC...

To you, perhaps. To other people they are primary reasons for owning a PocketPC. And developers are already taking advantage of the 2700G--BetaPlayer uses it for seamless VGA 1.5 Mbit video, there are several 3D games already, and I believe some of its functions are used in the GAPI fix that makes that gives the X50v the highest graphics score of any VGA PocketPC. The 2700G's capabilities are really quite impressive when you get to look at them.

The only real issue is warranty... and you should be able to work that out with the vendor... I am sure that it would be under warranty... you would just have to do it through Canada. Admit it... your looking for an excuse to come visit anyway... ;)

Yes, but not for the purpose of warranty service. I'll stick with my overnight advance replacement from Dell, thank you.

ADBrown
12-16-2004, 11:35 PM
And what do Bluetooth headphones have to do with 128 MB of RAM?

Many people have found they need at least 20MB free memory to use bluetooth headphones. It has prompted many Dell owners to think of the memory upgrade.

Regarding the video chip, yes, that is a plus feature for the Dell, but as yet unproven as necessary, and only of use with games, whereas memory shortage might hit you anywhere.

And availability and support dos not change which is the better unit, only which one you would be prepared to wait for or take on. I believe expansys-usa is selling the Loox locally.

Surur

Well that's no matter, I always have a good 30 MB of free RAM even at the leanest times. I load almost all my program to ROM, so I never worry about free RAM anyway.

Ripper014
12-17-2004, 12:23 AM
I think it is silly for us to debate this much further... it is obvious we see things from different viewpoints... and as you say... we use our devices differently.

I would just suggest that anyone who is looking into a new PocketPC is for them to review the specifications for each device and to decide what will best suit them for the life of the unit. In other words... don't buy just for today... but allow some room for vertical movement. Unless you own a PocketPC... I doubt you are truly aware of what it is capable of...

But just a another note regarding rom... if your device becomes defective... your rom is no longer available to you... I still feel in many ways a storage card is much safer...

Sven Johannsen
12-17-2004, 05:45 AM
And what do Bluetooth headphones have to do with 128 MB of RAM?

Many people have found they need at least 20MB free memory to use bluetooth headphones. It has prompted many Dell owners to think of the memory upgrade.

Did you mean to say 'HP owners'? I'm not aware of any BT headphones that work on the Dells that require loading software. The Bluetakes don't require software, and the HP ones don't work on the Dells...unless you know differently, and I'd appreciate you cluing me in if so. I'd love to use the HP headphones on my Dell X50v...with the 128M RAM in it.

MROX
12-17-2004, 07:23 AM
on my Dell X50v...with the 128M RAM in it.

Ok, time for a stupid question I guess, :drool: before someone start a fight :takethat: .

How do you get 128 ram on Dell X50v??? I'm looking on the Dell site (Canada and US as well), under X50v, customize, and there is nothing talking about ram upgrade!
???

Darius Wey
12-17-2004, 07:32 AM
How do you get 128 ram on Dell X50v??? I'm looking on the Dell site (Canada and US as well), under X50v, customize, and there is nothing talking about ram upgrade!

Pocket PC Techs provides a full service upgrade from 64MB to 128MB. More details here (http://www.pocketpctechs.com/Services.asp?type=DELX50V).

surur
12-17-2004, 09:16 AM
on my Dell X50v...with the 128M RAM in it.

Ok, time for a stupid question I guess, :drool: before someone start a fight :takethat: .

How do you get 128 ram on Dell X50v??? I'm looking on the Dell site (Canada and US as well), under X50v, customise, and there is nothing talking about ram upgrade!
???

Erk!! I did not say that! And of course I was thinking of the people's experience with the HP 4700 and bluetooth headphones, not the Dell. They do have the same amount of ram though, so when these headphones become generally available I expect the same problems.

Anyways, I expect there is not much benefit in debating this, expect to expose these issues for people who are doing research and making buying decisions. All I know is a Dell + a 128Mb upgrade costs as much as a Loox (which I do have :) ), and that people are doing some really funny things with their dells and HP's like moving dll's to the storage, with the potential of making their devices less stable. They are probably also not using their Synchonized My Documents folder. Sounds like hard work to me for a $100.

Of course one cant argue with cost. You can only pay as much as you have. On an intangible like value for money however I think the Loox comes ahead.

Surur

Don't Panic!
12-17-2004, 05:22 PM
I look at it this way. If you're an Executroid looking for a PDA go with HP. If your a device enthusiast like myself the Dell is the way to go. THe x50v is better for gaming, the hx4700 has better PIM functions.

drop
12-17-2004, 06:23 PM
If you are new to PPC, 64MB RAM should be enough to get you start with this wonderful device that most of us can't live without.

I would recommend VGA. Since you had narrowed down your selection to 4705 and X50v, I guess you agree. Dell's screen is smaller and Dell battery has lower capacity. Dell screen is pretty enough for me. I am willing to give up that little bit of screen in exchange for lower price. Dell battery power is surprisingly low. I found Dell’s battery is more than adequate for a normal workday. I do want more juice for playing music and movie without worry. But I plan to get a Mugen replacement battery anyway, that cancel that concern out. I wish I could try out the touchpad, but I couldn’t find a 4700 device at the time of my purchase. I went by the negative comments I read from many forums and reviews and decided it really didn’t make a whole of sense to me and opted for Dell’s dpad instead.

My recommendation is to go with the lower price one. If it turns out you are a power user, you could then decide to switch. By then, the new generation of PPC would be available and you would know how to justify the cost better.

WyattEarp
12-18-2004, 01:24 AM
Either device you get should be fine, they are both good units. As you can see many people are very opinionated about what is best. But you have to get what is best for you.

If you want the largest display so far, large battery, fast processor and don't mind the price then go with the HX4700 but if you want a smaller device at a lower cost with similar features choose the X50v as they always have some sort of discount. So forget the which is best debate and look at the specs, price, your needs, your wallet and then what you want. It's just easier that way.

I personally am disappointed in all the new devices and will be waiting for next years models. But that's just me, picky. There's my $0.02.

MROX
12-20-2004, 05:50 PM
I personally am disappointed in all the new devices and will be waiting for next years models.

Personally (as a newb) I also think it’s a good idea to wait next year. VGA should become more standard like WiFi and BT did. Price will go down a little (but not much). And as for that touch pad, more application should support it. But I would be surprise it become more popular. Not that it’s bad (except for gamer) but it’s not popular enough.
But I can't wait 6 month!

As time goes on, personally, my choices are going down to 2 models. X50v or 830e (yes I’m from Canada). If only I could put my hand on a 830e to see how heavy and big it feel! Who said this market as to be 90% online. AT ONE POINT WE NEED TO SEE THE THING!
:bad-words:

So that was my little $0.01 if you want it, put it with the $0.02.
:wink:

Ripper014
12-20-2004, 08:58 PM
If your in Canada go to your local Staples... they should have them on display... current pricing is $549can... and if you can get one of their coupons for $20 off for a $100 purchase then it becomes $529can... or if you can find a $30 off for a $300 purchase $519can...

Overall a pretty good price don't you think...??? London Drugs also has them but I have yet to see them supply a demo unit... I just opened mine last night... noticed this morning that it is quite a bit thinner than my Hp2200... not really that much wider... (by actual measurement) but it is quite a bit longer... I bet you volume wise it may be fairly close...

surur
12-20-2004, 09:01 PM
To post a counterpoint to my previous tirade against the Dell, I now feel the video accelerator is more valuable than I first thought. When streaming Divx over wifi, the displaying of the video takes up so much processing power that it limits the rate at which the wifi can stream the video. When the video is in the background and not being displayed it streams perfectly fine.

I would give another point for the Dell. Still loves the Loox though.

Surur

Yorker
12-22-2004, 10:49 PM
I've been reading this thread with interest as I've decided it's time to retire my poor old ipaq 5450 and get one of the new vga models. I've actually dismissed the 4700 due to the touchpad (tried it and hated it). Being in the UK I can get a loox 420, but I'm also wondering about the x50v.

On paper the loox420 seems much better - bigger battery, more ram, camera (it may be rubbish but I bet it can't be as bad as my treo 600 (no flames please!)). But I've heard there are a few software niggles with the 420 and the axim seems like a safer bet somehow. Any thoughts?

surur
12-23-2004, 12:38 AM
Thats the Loox 720, unless you are not planning to go vga. What kind of software quirks? I have the device, and have not run into any problems.

(oh, and dont be so sure about the camera)

Surur

Yorker
12-23-2004, 12:51 AM
Thats the Loox 720, unless you are not planning to go vga.

oops, yes I meant the 720. ':oops:'

What kind of software quirks? I have the device, and have not run into any problems.

(oh, and dont be so sure about the camera)

Surur

The main ones I've read are that the transfer on the memory cards can be slow depending on your file explorer, and that the wifi manager is awkward to use and only allows one profile. I've also seen varying reports on how well the usb hosting works.

The examples I've seen from the camera didn't seem that bad to me but it does get widely panned in the reviews! I guess I'm just getting nervous before shelling out the cash!

surur
12-23-2004, 01:57 AM
The main ones I've read are that the transfer on the memory cards can be slow depending on your file explorer, and that the wifi manager is awkward to use and only allows one profile. I've also seen varying reports on how well the usb hosting works.


The Loox does appear to have slow data transfer. I dont know how this stacks up against the Dell however. The Dell of course does NOt have USb host, so data transfer is not an issue at all. On the loox is appears more than fats enough to stream audio, but a bit too slow to stream video. Maybe this will be improved in future roms.

US hot appears very handy, as it opens up desktop accessories to pocketpc's, especially any USB keyboard, memory card reader and USb had drives.It would make your memory stick's finally directly readable by your pocketpc for example.

The bes thing is of course saying how you intend to use your device. That should guide your decision in any case. In general the Loox is a better device, but the Dell of course has it beat in some specific areas, and if your interest is in those same areas it may be the device for you.

You make have read some Loox forums which have raised your concern. Ive just had a look at aximsite. Near every second post in the forums there is some complaint or another.

http://www.aximsite.com/boards/forumdisplay.php?f=109
http://www.aximsite.com/boards/forumdisplay.php?f=111

BTW, the Dell does NOT have Consumer IR, despite what many other people maintained.

http://www.aximsite.com/articles/link.php?id=200

Its also worth noting the contortions people are going through to move all their programs into rom. Seems a lot of work for the money they saved buying a Dell.

Surur

surur
12-23-2004, 01:58 AM
The main ones I've read are that the transfer on the memory cards can be slow depending on your file explorer, and that the wifi manager is awkward to use and only allows one profile. I've also seen varying reports on how well the usb hosting works.


Regarding the wifi tool, I think most people ignore it and use microsoft's zero config in any case. The Loox does appear to have slow data transfer. I dont know how this stacks up against the Dell however. The Dell of course does NOT have USB host, so data transfer is not an issue at all. On the loox is appears more than fast enough to stream audio, but a bit too slow to stream video. Maybe this will be improved in future roms.

USB host appears very handy, as it opens up desktop accessories to pocketpc's, especially any USB keyboard, memory card reader and USB hard drives.It would make your memory stick's finally directly readable by your pocketpc for example.

The bes thing is of course saying how you intend to use your device. That should guide your decision in any case. In general the Loox is a better device, but the Dell of course has it beat in some specific areas, and if your interest is in those same areas it may be the device for you.

You make have read some Loox forums which have raised your concern. Ive just had a look at aximsite. Near every second post in the forums there is some complaint or another.

http://www.aximsite.com/boards/forumdisplay.php?f=109
http://www.aximsite.com/boards/forumdisplay.php?f=111

BTW, the Dell does NOT have Consumer IR, despite what many other people maintained.

http://www.aximsite.com/articles/link.php?id=200

Its also worth noting the contortions people are going through to move all their programs into rom. Seems a lot of work for the money they saved buying a Dell.

Surur

ADBrown
12-23-2004, 02:47 AM
The Loox does appear to have slow data transfer. I dont know how this stacks up against the Dell however. The Dell of course does NOt have USb host, so data transfer is not an issue at all.

This relates to slow transfers from memory cards how?

You make have read some Loox forums which have raised your concern. Ive just had a look at aximsite. Near every second post in the forums there is some complaint or another.

Please do read all the posts you can about the X50v. You'll find that most people who have it love it, apart from some lingering issues that mostly have to do with Dell's order fulfillment and not the device itself. Look around here too, and you'll see that with the exception of a few zealots who will say anything to convince you that a PocketPC with less than 128 MB of RAM is the work of the devil, most people are quite happy with their choices.

BTW, the Dell does NOT have Consumer IR, despite what many other people maintained.

This is wrong. I have personally tested this. I have the official Dell documentation, including their PowerPoint PR presentations. I have it from the mouth of our Dell contact in Mobile Devices. It is just wrong. The X50 most emphatically DOES have CIR.

Its also worth noting the contortions people are going through to move all their programs into rom. Seems a lot of work for the money they saved buying a Dell.

A lot of work? It's three clicks while installing your programs. No work.

Surur, I really don't mind you disagreeing about which device is best. But I DO mind when you start manufacturing false information. You seem a lot less interested in the relative merits of the VGA devices than you do in thowing rocks at the X50v. It's unwarranted. I don't see Axim users making up spurious claims about the Loox, but a bunch of Loox and Asus users seem to have made it their mission in life to tear down the X50v, and to a lesser extent the iPaq 4700. Peace, man. Let diversity reign.

Menneisyys
12-23-2004, 08:26 AM
There is nothing safe about ROM... like anything else in life it can become defective... and there is nothing fast about it. From what I have seen... data transfer from CF cards is faster than from ROM...

Incorrect. Flash ROM is safe against hard resets, and the chances of it being defective are so low that it's almost laughable to bring it up. Also, internal flash is considerably faster than any memory card not rated at 60x or higher.

Not exactly true. For writing, it's dog-slow. I've just tested my PL720 with Resco Explorer 5.1; for writing speed, I got some 166 kbytes/s; for reading speed, around 1 Mbytes/s. The latter is indeed a bit higher than the usual 600-800 kbytes/s for no-frills, cheap CF/SD cards, but the writing speed is MUCH lower than with even the cheapest cards. E.g., the PL720 writes a cheap, non-Ultra SD 1G SD card at 860 kbytes/s...


developers are already taking advantage of the 2700G--BetaPlayer uses it for seamless VGA 1.5 Mbit video, there are several 3D games already, and I believe some of its functions are used in the GAPI fix that makes that gives the X50v the highest graphics score of any VGA PocketPC. The 2700G's capabilities are really quite impressive when you get to look at them.

So was the Sinclair QL or the Amigas in the eighties or the Archimedes a bit later. Still, what happened to these machines? They died because of the lack of SW support.

BTW, name a DECENT 2700g 3D game developed bt a third-party developer, not bundled with the x50v. BetaPlayer and the VGA output are the only advantages of the 2700g right now. And when (and, incidentally, IF) 2700g games / WM2005 comes, the x50v will already be an outdated machine with a sub-par hardware configuration compared to the new machines.

Menneisyys
12-23-2004, 08:31 AM
BTW, the Dell does NOT have Consumer IR, despite what many other people maintained.

This is wrong. I have personally tested this. I have the official Dell documentation, including their PowerPoint PR presentations. I have it from the mouth of our Dell contact in Mobile Devices. It is just wrong. The X50 most emphatically DOES have CIR.


Why doesn't Dell emphasize this? It'd certainly speed up sales. They can't be THAT stupid... After all, CIR is a big selling point, especially when backed up with Nevo 2.

Menneisyys
12-23-2004, 09:00 AM
The main ones I've read are that the transfer on the memory cards can be slow depending on your file explorer, and that the wifi manager is awkward to use and only allows one profile. I've also seen varying reports on how well the usb hosting works.


Regarding the wifi tool, I think most people ignore it and use microsoft's zero config in any case. The Loox does appear to have slow data transfer. I dont know how this stacks up against the Dell however. The Dell of course does NOT have USB host, so data transfer is not an issue at all. On the loox is appears more than fast enough to stream audio, but a bit too slow to stream video. Maybe this will be improved in future roms.


Actually, that's the fault of M$ side, not that of Fujitsu-Siemens' (or any other PPC manufacturer that also suffers from sub-par card/USB host transfer speeds when run in the background - ALL of them do...). Picard himself, the author of BetaPlayer has explained this at Firstloox ) http://www.firstloox.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2621&page=1&pp=15 ):

"At the moment almost all CF and SD drivers I saw are poorly optimized for background operation. This means it needs quite much CPU time to read data and if video decoding uses all the cpu then there is a problem. The only exception I saw is the SD driver in X50v."

Menneisyys
12-23-2004, 09:05 AM
Its also worth noting the contortions people are going through to move all their programs into rom. Seems a lot of work for the money they saved buying a Dell.

A lot of work? It's three clicks while installing your programs. No work.


You may have not seen topics like this: http://discussion.brighthand.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=113915

In threads like the above hx4700 users are desperately trying to find out how to move .DLL's from \Windows (RAM) to some other storage media. You DO have to do some (or, in times, a lot of) manual work in order to move all your stuff from RAM some time, because shared DLL's are copied to RAM by default, no matter where you install your app.

Menneisyys
12-23-2004, 09:07 AM
BTW, a very important thing has been forgotten: the screen quality. Check out the x50v screenshots at http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=35630 and tell me whether the x50v screen has good color reproduction :D

Menneisyys
12-23-2004, 09:09 AM
I've been reading this thread with interest as I've decided it's time to retire my poor old ipaq 5450 and get one of the new vga models. I've actually dismissed the 4700 due to the touchpad (tried it and hated it). Being in the UK I can get a loox 420, but I'm also wondering about the x50v.

On paper the loox420 seems much better - bigger battery, more ram, camera (it may be rubbish but I bet it can't be as bad as my treo 600 (no flames please!)). But I've heard there are a few software niggles with the 420 and the axim seems like a safer bet somehow. Any thoughts?

The PL 720 has a MUCH betteer screen. Actually, its screen is the same as the one in the iPAQ hx4700, except for a slighly bigger DPI. Check out http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=35630

Fishie
12-23-2004, 09:23 AM
Menneisyys I salute you, you are an incredibly knoledgeable poster.

Menneisyys
12-23-2004, 09:27 AM
Menneisyys I salute you, you are an incredibly knoledgeable poster.

Thanks :) I'm indeed not a newbie; it's just that I've just recently started to post on this site. On some other sites (e.g., pdamania.hu) I have over 8 000 posts :)

surur
12-23-2004, 09:49 AM
BTW, the Dell does NOT have Consumer IR, despite what many other people maintained.
This is wrong. I have personally tested this. I have the official Dell documentation, including their PowerPoint PR presentations. I have it from the mouth of our Dell contact in Mobile Devices. It is just wrong. The X50 most emphatically DOES have CIR.

Surur, I really don't mind you disagreeing about which device is best. But I DO mind when you start manufacturing false information. You seem a lot less interested in the relative merits of the VGA devices than you do in thowing rocks at the X50v. It's unwarranted. I don't see Axim users making up spurious claims about the Loox, but a bunch of Loox and Asus users seem to have made it their mission in life to tear down the X50v, and to a lesser extent the iPaq 4700. Peace, man. Let diversity reign.

http://www.aximsite.com/articles/link.php?id=200
IR - There has been some question wondering if the IR is CIR? Well, If it is, its weak. I was only able to control my TV from 12 feet. The software used was PDAwin and it tested 25 feet with the X30.

This is from the ACTUAL device review from Chris Leckness from Aximsite. I did not provide that link for no reason you know.

Surur

Menneisyys
12-23-2004, 12:15 PM
Look around here too, and you'll see that with the exception of a few zealots who will say anything to convince you that a PocketPC with less than 128 MB of RAM is the work of the devil, most people are quite happy with their choices.


Unless they try to run applications like Pocket Phojo with 8+ MPixel pics and Undo enabled :)

BTW, some new USB host speed benchmarks have been posted at http://www.firstloox.org/forums/showthread.php?p=18592

Yorker
12-23-2004, 03:49 PM
Thanks for all the replies - lots of interesting info. Not sure it's helping me make up my mind though :wink:

I use my ipaq for gps nav at the moment so card speed might be an issue when accessing maps meaning the axim looks good. However, I struggle with my 5450 getting anything to run properly when it is stored on the ROM so the bigger RAM of the loox could be an incentive - I'm hoping this has improved with the newer models though. The battery of the axim isn't as good but I can easily get a double capacity one.

I'll be using the machine with both my work and home wireless networks, and also for skype but I don't think there's much in it for either machine for that.

hmmm.....

Menneisyys
12-23-2004, 04:04 PM
I use my ipaq for gps nav at the moment so card speed might be an issue when accessing maps meaning the axim looks good.

If you meant Picard's explanation by this: the Axim (IMHO! I may be wrong though) doesn't have a better speed when accessing the SD card in the foreground. It's only at background threads that it's quite good at. GPS/map apps generally access the maps in a foreground thread, unlike a media player, where it'd result in a propmt pause in the playback. So, you wouldn't win anything by buying the Axim just because its SD driver is optimized for background jobs, unlike in other VGA PDA's.

I've just posted a request to Aximsite ( http://www.aximsite.com/boards/showthread.php?p=471070 ) so that exact figures (kbyte/s) be presented.

ADBrown
12-30-2004, 02:55 AM
Just to wrap up a couple of quick points--I can't speak to the Loox 720, but I've had the Axim X50v, iPaq hx4700, and the Asus A730W. The iPaq and Asus have slightly better color saturation, but it's nowhere near as dramatic as it is made out to be. The kind of pejoratives that are thrown around on a routine basis are almost entirely hearsay, and photos of LCDs don't really capture the differences between them. The color difference is minimal.

The screen in the Loox is NOT the same as the screen in the iPaq. They're two totally different sizes. Same manufacturer possibly, and perhaps similar characteristics, but you can't have the 'same' screen be two different sizes. It doesn't work that way.

Chris may have had software problems controlling his TV. While I was testing the X50s CIR, I noticed that the only app which really worked was Total Remote. Some of the others had performance and stability issues--possibly due to the new build of 2003SE, possible due to VGA. But if the IR port weren't CIR, Chris wouldn't have gotten even 12 feet. Most non-CIR devices top out at 4 to 6 feet. And I've personally tested my X50s to 18 feet.

Vis a vis 8 MP photo editing on a PocketPC, I stand by my usage of the word zealots. :)

Menneisyys
12-30-2004, 07:20 AM
Vis a vis 8 MP photo editing on a PocketPC, I stand by my usage of the word zealots. :)

W? BIC! :mrgreen:

Menneisyys
12-30-2004, 07:23 AM
Just to wrap up a couple of quick points--I can't speak to the Loox 720, but I've had the Axim X50v, iPaq hx4700, and the Asus A730W. The iPaq and Asus have slightly better color saturation, but it's nowhere near as dramatic as it is made out to be. The kind of pejoratives that are thrown around on a routine basis are almost entirely hearsay, and photos of LCDs don't really capture the differences between them. The color difference is minimal.

Also check out Deslock's post at http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=315115 (Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:07 pm) - he has made an excellent hx4700 vs. x50v comparison.

Yorker
12-31-2004, 09:38 PM
Well I've gone for the Loox 720 over the x50v. In the end it was the larger ram that swung it for me, I hate having to scrape around for extra memory.

Ripper014
12-31-2004, 10:32 PM
Good choice...

surur
12-31-2004, 10:38 PM
Well I've gone for the Loox 720 over the x50v. In the end it was the larger ram that swung it for me, I hate having to scrape around for extra memory.

Exactly! Why take the bus when you can drive?

Surur

Yorker
01-01-2005, 01:36 PM
Well I've gone for the Loox 720 over the x50v. In the end it was the larger ram that swung it for me, I hate having to scrape around for extra memory.

Exactly! Why take the bus when you can drive?

Surur

Hmm, well I think there are pros and cons for both, the dell does have a better processor after all. But memory is a personal bug bear of mine!

WyattEarp
01-01-2005, 11:48 PM
I'd have to agree. What good is a faster processor when there is not enough memory. I think manufacturers and MS forget that memory is also very important. Guess I'll still be hanging on for the next set of PPCs.

Sven Johannsen
01-02-2005, 01:26 AM
Well for $624 ($424 X50v + $200 PPCTechs RAM upgrade) you get a 624Mhz, 128M RAM, 128M ROM, VGA screen and VGA out capable graphics excellerated, headset/mic jacked, X50v. How much is the Loox?

Ripper014
01-02-2005, 02:20 AM
Well for $624 ($424 X50v + $200 PPCTechs RAM upgrade) you get a 624Mhz, 128M RAM, 128M ROM, VGA screen and VGA out capable graphics excellerated, headset/mic jacked, X50v. How much is the Loox?


Uh huh... all that and you get to void your warranty as well... Overall IMHO the Loox is a much better device... in fact there are many I feel that are better than the Dell x50V...

surur
01-02-2005, 02:36 AM
Well for $624 ($424 X50v + $200 PPCTechs RAM upgrade) you get a 624Mhz, 128M RAM, 128M ROM, VGA screen and VGA out capable graphics excellerated, headset/mic jacked, X50v. How much is the Loox?

About the same price, maybe $25 cheaper, but if you do what you propose :
a) Youve just lost your Dell warranty. I know ppctechs provide one, but Im sure its not as comprehensive.
b) you still havnt got USB host, which is much more useful generally than video out (for which you also have to buy a separate cable)
c) You still have to buy a second battery
d) Most 520 Mhz ppc's can easily and safely be overclocked to 624 Mhz.

So in fact you should add $200 +$50 for an extra battery or $90 for the extended one and $75 for the VGA cable. And you still would not have USB host.

Dell has been stingy with the memory and with the battery. This made it cheaper, but you still end up paying eventually.

Better to get it right from the start (with a Loox of course) with a large battery, great screen and USB host cable included as standard.

Surur

Ripper014
01-02-2005, 05:18 AM
Not to mention they (Loox) will even throw in the camera... ok... not such a big deal... but in the end a much better option than the Dell plus the $200 upgrade... I believe that PPCTechs would only warranty their work... and then only for 30 days.

Sven Johannsen
01-02-2005, 05:29 AM
I realize you guys are zealots and must defend at all cost. I was just wondering how the prices compared when I gave you a device with the same RAM, which seems to be a holy grail for you, and twice the ROM, which you don't seem to understand, or want to acknowledge, the use of. Searching around a little on the web, I didn't even readily find a place to buy a Loox, but saw review prices between $600 and $720. Wondered what they really ran.

The Loox has a camera which limits its use to me, and others that are restricted on where they can take photographic equipment. The Dell has a VGA out which is actually useful to me. The price Dell charges for the cable includes a very professional document view/display package that supports the VGA out capability. I expect third parties will soon supply just the cable for a significantly lower price, as that is all you really need.

The Loox has a USB host which doesn't excite me at all. I don't typically carry a full sized keyboard around with my POCKET PC, nor do I have any use for attaching a notebook or 3.5 inch hard drive that requires external power to my PPC. So you can stick a USB drive straight on your Loox, I can stick an SD or CF card in my Dell and carry a reader if so inclined. It's not like there are web cam, bar code reader, scanner, BT, WiFi, printer USB drivers around for PPCs are there?

If for some reason it is important for the color of the grass in the picture of a marsh in Finland to be indistinguishable from the actual grass for you to be happy, that's fine. When I show a picture of my Granddaughter they say 'Aww, she's cute", and you can se the pain in Lance Armstong's face in that shot of him crossing the line at Alpe D'Huez, regardless if the colors are perfect or not. It's not meant to be a professional photographer's portfolio.

From the first day PPCs were released, when I started reading forums and newsgroups, people have asked about external mics for their PPCs. The Dell has that covered.

So there are things that the Dell has the Loox doesn't and things the Loox has the Dell doesn't. From my perspective, the Dell has more of what I care about, and the Loox even has things that are turnoffs to me(camera). All at a significantly lower price. I chose to beef up the RAM at my expense, but there are a lot of satisfied X50 users, and I'm sure they all haven't done that.

I'm sure they are both fine devices and have their following. Would be nicer though to concentrate on what the device does, rather than what everyone else doesn't.

Menneisyys
01-02-2005, 05:31 AM
Youve just lost your Dell warranty. I know ppctechs provide one, but Im sure its not as comprehensive.



AFAIK not, and it's only 3 months.

Brad Adrian
01-02-2005, 05:37 AM
Sorry if I missed it earlier, but what are the thoughts about the iPAQ hx2700 compared to these devices? I don't need fingerprint recognition, but the other device specs look great.

Janak Parekh
01-02-2005, 05:41 AM
Sorry if I missed it earlier, but what are the thoughts about the iPAQ hx2700 compared to these devices? I don't need fingerprint recognition, but the other device specs look great.
Two words: no VGA. :( I think that immediately puts it out of the league of these units. I know I wouldn't go back to QVGA unless I had to.

--janak

Menneisyys
01-02-2005, 05:42 AM
The Loox has a USB host which doesn't excite me at all. I don't typically carry a full sized keyboard around with my POCKET PC, nor do I have any use for attaching a notebook or 3.5 inch hard drive that requires external power to my PPC. So you can stick a USB drive straight on your Loox, I can stick an SD or CF card in my Dell and carry a reader if so inclined. It's not like there are web cam, bar code reader, scanner, BT, WiFi, printer USB drivers around for PPCs are there?

Actually, barcode readers are supported by the Ratoc driver ( http://www.ratocsystems.com/english/products/subpages/cfu1u.html ), which can be used on any PDA equipped with any kind of USB host hardware (not just that of Ratoc). Check out the compatibility list at Ratoc's homepage.

Furthermore, there're also gamepad drivers for the USB host.

Furthermore, you should have also mentioned 2.5 hard disks with built-in rerchargeable batteries- all image tanks are like this. Realkly portable and able to run with one charge for about an hour, or even more.

And, these image tanks are pretty cheap too. Here in Europe, for example, equipped with a 40-60 GB HDD, they cost the same as the Ratoc USB host CF card (180-200 euros).

Menneisyys
01-02-2005, 05:53 AM
The Loox has a camera which limits its use to me, and others that are restricted on where they can take photographic equipment.

1, you can always use black tape to hide the lens, or even a screwdriver to destroy (e.g., scratch them badly) them.

2, or, get the Pocket Loox 718, which doesn't have the camera.

Menneisyys
01-02-2005, 06:05 AM
If for some reason it is important for the color of the grass in the picture of a marsh in Finland to be indistinguishable from the actual grass for you to be happy, that's fine. When I show a picture of my Granddaughter they say 'Aww, she's cute", and you can se the pain in Lance Armstong's face in that shot of him crossing the line at Alpe D'Huez, regardless if the colors are perfect or not. It's not meant to be a professional photographer's portfolio.


Sure, the human eye can accustom to even the worst and most unnatural screens (e.g.,the iPAQ 38xx screens), but why not get a device with a great screen, with vibrant greens and reds, at first, if you have a choice? If I had a chance to choose between a vibrant and a not-that-vibrant screen, I'd go for the more vibrant one, even if I knew that my eyes would also accustom to the less vibrant one and perceive it almost as good as the other one if used alone, without direct comparison. Actually, I was even able to view photos on my 2210 as well (having prolly the worst transflective screen). I didn't particularly like it, and a lot of times also took with me (carrying two PPC's) my Casio E-125 to show my images on when I knew beforehand I'll show some pics to my relatives/friends. Still, without the E-125, I was able to use my iPAQ as well. But, again, why not have the best (screen) if you have the choice?

Janak Parekh
01-02-2005, 06:50 AM
a lot of times also took with me (carrying two PPC's) my Casio E-125
Well, the E125 is an unfair comparison. It gives you truer colors than any transflective display on the market, even now. I'd suspect the X50v would be quite a bit better than the 2215.

The other reason is, of course, support. I'm sorry, but I wouldn't buy the Loox in the US until it's supported here. I've actually had to ship one Pocket PC (my 3870) back to HP -- problems do happen -- and if support was only available via international channels that's a no-go. I'd imagine that this would be a criterion for Sven as well.

Given that constraint, the choices for a "compact VGA Pocket PC" here are reduced to the A730w or the X50v. I'm not sure how the A730w's screen is, but I think the X50v's negatives can be mitigated overall considering the circumstances.

--janak

surur
01-02-2005, 10:40 AM
The other reason is, of course, support. I'm sorry, but I wouldn't buy the Loox in the US until it's supported here. I've actually had to ship one Pocket PC (my 3870) back to HP -- problems do happen -- and if support was only available via international channels that's a no-go. I'd imagine that this would be a criterion for Sven as well.

--janak

But of course as soon as Sven upgraded his memory he lost all of that wonderful Dell support. He will not be cross shipping his broken device. He will not be able to insist the behaviour of the buttons is due to a rom glitch. (e.g.) They will always blame his 128Mb memory. Even if they do agree to give him a refurbished unit, he will still be out of $200, and another $200 to bring it back up to spec.

In this case, you cant have your cake and eat it. Either you have 64MB and local support, or 128MB and NO support (from Dell at least).

Now 128Mb is not the only feature in the Loox's favour, and adding a video out cf card is cheaper (at $126-$150 on froogle) than adding 128Mb ram, and still comes with clearvue. To make the two ppc's equivalent will cost a lot more for the Dell, and leave you on your own unsupported.

Expansys USA is selling the Loox at $615 currently, which is about the same it costs in UK in pounds at the moment. Its a real steal for what you get.

http://www.expansys-usa.com/product.asp?code=LOOX_720

The Dell is a good budget unit, but if you were going to spend $600 in any case you may as well go for the Loox.

Surur

Yorker
01-02-2005, 10:43 AM
Well for $624 ($424 X50v + $200 PPCTechs RAM upgrade) you get a 624Mhz, 128M RAM, 128M ROM, VGA screen and VGA out capable graphics excellerated, headset/mic jacked, X50v. How much is the Loox?

I'm in the UK so no good for me. As for ROM, I found it to be next to useless in my ipaq 5450, apps just didn't run properly from it so I ended up using a memory card anyway. Of course YMMV.

I'm not bashing the Axim, I'm sure its a good machine, but I'd rather have something out the box than worry about warranties and 3rd party modifications.

Menneisyys
01-02-2005, 11:19 AM
I'd suspect the X50v would be quite a bit better than the 2215.

It is- it has about the same color reproduction than the 4150. Not quite stellar, but still much better than the 2210.

Menneisyys
01-02-2005, 11:28 AM
As for ROM, I found it to be next to useless in my ipaq 5450, apps just didn't run properly from it so I ended up using a memory card anyway.

That's 2.5 years old technology. Current VGA devices aren't that bad. I've benchmarked the ROM store of my PL720: the reading speed of it was around 800-900 kbytes/s. Only at writing that it really sucks - about 150 kbytes/sec, which is an order of magnitude slower than writing to a Ultra II-league card in the Loox.

I'm running tons of apps from the Loox ROM. It's only Simple SMS that is much slower (it may be constantly updating its databases/cache files in the background, this is why it gets a considerable performance hit when run on the ROM store). So, don't be afraid of present-day ROM's - most apps run flawlessly from then, not (much) slower than from the main memory.

Menneisyys
01-02-2005, 11:33 AM
Given that constraint, the choices for a "compact VGA Pocket PC" here are reduced to the A730w or the X50v. I'm not sure how the A730w's screen is.

The A730(W) folks over PocketMatrix and BH say its screen is beautiful. I haven't seen it in person as yet, so I don't want to comment on it. However, the still 1.1 BT is no problem, because it works together with Wi-Fi, unlike the A716. So, I think you should wait a few days - hope a decent, prolly comparative (screen quality, battery life) A730w review turns up in the near future.

Menneisyys
01-02-2005, 11:42 AM
adding a video out cf card is cheaper (at $126-$150 on froogle) than adding 128Mb ram, and still comes with clearvue. To make the two ppc's equivalent will cost a lot more for the Dell, and leave you on your own unsupported.

Well, I have to defend the Axim too (I can't really be a 'F-S zealot' ;) ). The built-in VGA is so much better than any external VGA card. First, it's orders of magnitude faster. Of the VGA CF cards, only FlyPresenter is supported by PocketTV (no BetaPlayer support!), a d all you get is MPEG1 play at most, because of the bandwidth restrictions of the PDA hardware accessing the CF interface (no more than 1.5 Mbytes/s in general). Furthermore, prolly (taking into account everything - see my forthcoming comparative review of all the available PPC-based pic viewereditor apps) the best image viewer/editor program, Spb Imageer, currently doesn't support any kind of VGA CF/SD cards. (Resco and some other pic viewers do.)

On the other hand, the built-in VGA output is indeed a real mirror w/o compatibility issues, and works great with BetaPlayer and is able to present even 640*480 AVI (not crappy MPEG1) movies as fast as on the internal screen.

So, the 2700g indeed a very useful addition to the x50v.

surur
01-02-2005, 01:52 PM
The LifeView CF CompactFlash VGA/video output device is going for around $100 at the cheapest, comes with a pile of software and includes an infrared remote control.

On a 400Mhz Dell axim x5 it got 14 fps in pockettv. I expect it will be better on a faster, newer processor.

http://www.pdabuyersguide.com/tips/FlyPresenter.htm

The built-in unit in the Dell is also not the fastest in movies, and people still recommend it mainly for slides more than video.

Not saying its not a great feature, which all pocketpc's should not have, just saying its not irreplaceable.

Surur

Yorker
01-02-2005, 03:21 PM
As for ROM, I found it to be next to useless in my ipaq 5450, apps just didn't run properly from it so I ended up using a memory card anyway.

That's 2.5 years old technology. Current VGA devices aren't that bad. I've benchmarked the ROM store of my PL720: the reading speed of it was around 800-900 kbytes/s. Only at writing that it really sucks - about 150 kbytes/sec, which is an order of magnitude slower than writing to a Ultra II-league card in the Loox.

I'm running tons of apps from the Loox ROM.

thats good to hear. I did hope that things had improved!

Fishie
01-02-2005, 03:45 PM
Well for $624 ($424 X50v + $200 PPCTechs RAM upgrade) you get a 624Mhz, 128M RAM, 128M ROM, VGA screen and VGA out capable graphics excellerated, headset/mic jacked, X50v. How much is the Loox?

And still lack a camera and have even worse battery life then the X50v already has with a screen that is still inferior.

shawnc
01-02-2005, 04:26 PM
You know what, I don't mean to get in the middle of this "mine is bigger than your's" contest, but it seems to me as though this discussion, while very interesting, does more to illustrate just how flawed these new devices are, considering their price tags, than it does to extol their virtues. If I were considering one of these devices (which admittingly I am not), this thread would discourage me more than it would encourage me. We continue to have the same discussion about PPC's in 2005 that we had in 2002. The consumer continutes to have to make comprimises regardless of price. Want speed, settle for less memory. Oh, you want both? Go see an aftermarket company to increase the memory. No problem, just invalidates your warranty 8O . You want more memory, OK, here's a device with a slower processor and an inferior screen? Geez, comprimise after comprimise. PPC manufacturers have had over 10 years to figure out what by all accounts is a relatively simple equation and they still can't seem to get it right.

Just my .02.

surur
01-02-2005, 04:49 PM
Geez, comprimise after comprimise.

This is perfectly true. There is no perfect device, and this is due to a number of reasons. I think number one is manipulation of the markets by Microsoft and the OEM's. They dont want to cannibalise other markets (e.g laptops) and they want to leave some room for further improvement and upgrades from their existing customers in a year's time. The only antidote to this is competition, and we need a lot more of it. The smaller OEM's (such as Asus and FSC) have to work much harder for our attention, and if they produce a better product it is very pro-competitive to support them.

The other reasons are less surmountable, and these are related to the advancement of technology, battery life and size/weight/desirability and size of the market. These do not however explain simple things like the lack of a standard connector or the lack of development in Pocket Office (yes, I know the 2005 one will be marginally better).

Taking branding over features is a good way to ensure more money gets spend on advertising than product development. I hope I'm doing my small part by raising the awareness of people of excellent alternate products from other than from the "big two".

Surur

Janak Parekh
01-02-2005, 07:40 PM
But of course as soon as Sven upgraded his memory he lost all of that wonderful Dell support. He will not be cross shipping his broken device. He will not be able to insist the behaviour of the buttons is due to a rom glitch. (e.g.) They will always blame his 128Mb memory. Even if they do agree to give him a refurbished unit, he will still be out of $200, and another $200 to bring it back up to spec.
I think Sven was trying to illustrate the pricing, more than support, and as such the two of us have different points. ;)

In this case, you cant have your cake and eat it. Either you have 64MB and local support, or 128MB and NO support (from Dell at least).
Not just from Dell on an upgraded unit, from F/S as well in general. If you want a small VGA unit here, your choices are 64MB and 64MB. ;) Having owned a number of 64MB devices, I'd choose that anyday over a 128MB unsupported device.

The reason I'd be inclined to choose the Dell over the A730W is that accessories are more likely to appear for the "big players" here first, and that makes a huge difference. For instance, Vaja and others already have X50 cases out, but not so for the A730w.

The smaller OEM's (such as Asus and FSC) have to work much harder for our attention, and if they produce a better product it is very pro-competitive to support them.
F/S could have a more substantial marketshare if they bothered to market and support the unit outside of Europe. :( They've generally been indifferent to marketing in the US, which I think is shortsighted. Both Fujitsu and Siemens have succeeded in the US in other markets, so it's not like they're entering the US for the first time or something.

--janak

surur
01-02-2005, 08:17 PM
F/S could have a more substantial marketshare if they bothered to market and support the unit outside of Europe. :( They've generally been indifferent to marketing in the US, which I think is shortsighted. Both Fujitsu and Siemens have succeeded in the US in other markets, so it's not like they're entering the US for the first time or something.

--janak

Janak, surely YOU dont need advertising to. You can judge for yourself based on features and feedback which is the better unit for you. And looking at the expansys USA website, you will be getting exactly the same support as me, from FSC UK. It will cost you 60p/minute, but only if you need it :) Im sure you wont need to call them unless you have serious issues, unlike a less experienced user.

Maybe the Loox 720 in the USA is for power users only, but you are certainly not on your own when you buy it there.

Surur

Janak Parekh
01-02-2005, 08:23 PM
It will cost you 60p/minute, but only if you need it :) Im sure you wont need to call them unless you have serious issues, unlike a less experienced user.
I'm not talking about technical support. I'm talking about repair support. I'd laugh at the concept but I've actually sent back a number of mobile devices in my lifetime for repair: my T68 (imported via Expansys years ago and the vibrator broke... fortunately, Sony Ericsson USA had just started T68 support); my Sony 505TX (mainboard had died); and my iPAQ 3870 (d-pad started misbehaving badly). I'm not sure what F/S policies are about shipping units overseas, but I wouldn't be thrilled at the prospect.

As for marketing, HP does a fair bit around here; there's a reason the iPAQs are popular. I'm not talking about myself, of course, I'm talking about mass market adoption. The 720 is completely utterly invisible here right now.

--janak

p.s. I was wrong about RAM on the A730w -- it's 128MB, which is pretty cool, battery life aside.

surur
01-02-2005, 08:36 PM
I'm not sure what F/S policies are about shipping units overseas, but I wouldn't be thrilled at the prospect.

Who knows where our units go when we drop them into the mail box. Your Dell Axim may go all the way back to HTC to be refurbished. Who can say.

In UK your warranty is with the dealer, not the OEM. If something goes wrong they usually have to fix it for at least a year, and longer if its a latent manufacturing defect. Is it that different in the USA, that Expansys USA wont covered for a year?

Surur

Janak Parekh
01-02-2005, 08:51 PM
Is it that different in the USA, that Expansys USA wont covered for a year?
The warranty with US manufacturers is with the manufacturer. The retailer will generally have a 30-day money-back policy, but then they're done with the product. Not sure about Expansys USA...

--janak

surur
01-02-2005, 09:02 PM
The warranty with US manufacturers is with the manufacturer. The retailer will generally have a 30-day money-back policy, but then they're done with the product. --janak

That explains a lot. So you would not for e.g. buy a no-name washing machine which do not have a US presence, because if it broke down in 6 months you would be out of luck? And the probability of a device breaking is not priced in by the dealer?

I guess this reduced the willingness of american consumers to take chances with unknown brands, and why support is so important there.

I think its worth e-mailing expansys-usa and asking them what their support policy is.

Surur

Menneisyys
01-02-2005, 09:11 PM
On a 400Mhz Dell axim x5 it got 14 fps in pockettv. I expect it will be better on a faster, newer processor.

http://www.pdabuyersguide.com/tips/FlyPresenter.htm


It could, but IMHO it won't ever be able to feed hi-res video, not even with the snappiest, 624 MHz PPC.

Menneisyys
01-02-2005, 09:42 PM
The built-in unit in the Dell is also not the fastest in movies, and people still recommend it mainly for slides more than video.


I've read the opposite in an x50v forum. I can't find the link now, though. You have some links?

Menneisyys
01-02-2005, 09:45 PM
It's not like there are web cam, bar code reader, scanner, BT, WiFi, printer USB drivers around for PPCs are there?


As for printing over USB host, check out http://www.firstloox.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2735 . It DOES work.

surur
01-02-2005, 10:17 PM
The built-in unit in the Dell is also not the fastest in movies, and people still recommend it mainly for slides more than video.


I've read the opposite in an x50v forum. I can't find the link now, though. You have some links?

http://www.aximsite.com/boards/showthread.php?t=59008&page=21&pp=25&highlight=vga+cable+betaplayer

hi, i just bought the vga out cable and i did the mirroring tool but i couldn't disable the lcd screen by pushing power+record button as you suggested...when i do that, it just brings up my record application.anywhere in particular that i have to press it say outside of betaplayer?? because it is skippy every other frame...hopefully it will be better...


It works with the screen off. With it on the performance is equivalent to the vga cf card (skipping every frame). I wonder what the performance of the vga card would be with the screen off also. My benchmarks with betaplayer are certainly a lot better if nothing has to be drawn on the screen.

Surur

Janak Parekh
01-02-2005, 11:55 PM
That explains a lot. So you would not for e.g. buy a no-name washing machine which do not have a US presence, because if it broke down in 6 months you would be out of luck?
Probably. In general, there's a lot more trust in manufacturers as opposed to retailers.

And the probability of a device breaking is not priced in by the dealer?
This is a little more interesting. Many retailers, especially the larger ones and for larger-scale equipment like a washer, do offer their own warranties... and others offer what is essentially insurance; however, that's usually not part of the advertised price and is an add-on, although many big retailers will put the price of the "extended warranty" on the price tag next to a unit.

Besides, when it comes to small electronics, I trust the manufacturer a lot more than the retailer.

--janak

Sven Johannsen
01-03-2005, 12:11 AM
But of course as soon as Sven upgraded his memory he lost all of that wonderful Dell support.....
I think Sven was trying to illustrate the pricing, more than support, and as such the two of us have different points. ;)
--janak
That was exactly the original point. Not sure how you compare a 520MHz machine with 128 RAM and 64M ROM with USB Host and a camera to a 624MHz machine with 128M ROM and 64M RAM and VGA out and mic jack, when one is over $600 and the other is $424. Guess it comes down to what is important to the buyer.

I can add RAM to mine, you can't add ROM to yours. OK, you don't want to, but I can tell you all of my third party applications are loaded to that 90+M file store and run just fine. I can swap SD, CF, memory and peripherals willy-nilly and never have to worry about what program isn't available. (Same on my Wife's BTW, with the stock 64M RAM and 128M ROM)

I can add a camera, and USB out. You can add VGA out and audio in (but that'll really cost you). You think your screen is killer, I find nothing wrong with mine. Your battery is better, I can buy and extended one or a second one, though I haven't had any particular complaints at this point.

I haven't got a clue what your support is like, but know it is arranged differently than here. I can tell you that when my X30 had a problem, Dell shipped me a new one next day and I put the bad one in the box it came in and dropped it at Fedex, prepaid. I can do exactly the same with my Wife's X50, which is not upgraded. So the upgrade is nice, but neither common, nor neccessary.

So there seem to be more USB capabilities than I had heard of. That's great. Maybe more OEMs will include it if there is more peripheral support. USB host machines were so rare keeping up didn't seem worthwhile. Still not much there I can't already do. The USB printing required Clearview and JetCet Print, $39 between them. I can print via IR, BT, Wifi, (all built in) and ethernet CF card, by just adding the free HP Printing solution. You could too of course, so I don't see the big thrill in USB printing.

I have a question though. You can't hook a USB host to another host without a special cable. Can you use all the usual ZipLinq style third party sync and charge cables, and the USB Host requires a special cable, or are you limited to a special sync cable?

So, it comes down to, you like yours, I like mine. We each have things the other doesn't. We can each spend money to level the capabilities. I just started with a significantly smaller investment, that for many, may be all they need.

BTW, whoever it was that suggested the tape or destroying the lens..that won't do. The tape is no more in compliance than a lens cap. Destroying the lens, while seemingly a valid option, likely would cause concern on the part of security. They are not technicians, they are cops. Cops the world round are not known for flexibility. The sign says no photographic equipment...not, no photopraphic equipment unlesss it's broken. To use the concept of why not buy what you need..if you need it not to have a camera, why not spend less and not buy one rather than buy one and break it.

surur
01-03-2005, 12:48 AM
I find your argument complicated. Is it just that the Dell is cheaper and upgradeable for those who need/want it?

It still means the base unit needs something, which you clearly recognised by paying $200 to upgrade your ram. I bet you have an extra battery too.

Btw, like the video cable for the Dell, the Loox USB host cable is just a cable, with no electronics. Some-one shrunk it down to just a connector.

http://www.firstloox.org/forums/showthread.php?p=18423#post18423

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/media/users/4259/miniusb.jpg

Very useful if you have a large USB memory drive, to share between your desktop and ppc.

Surur

Janak Parekh
01-03-2005, 01:13 AM
I find your argument complicated. Is it just that the Dell is cheaper and upgradeable for those who need/want it?
I think it's that your needs are complicated (or maybe it's just that this thread has lost its point?) moreso than the argument is complicated. I think Sven's point is simple: for about $425, you get a pretty darn nice, compact unit with VGA resolution. No, it doesn't have everything. But it's hardly worth sneezing at and it's a viable option to those who find it sufficient.

It still means the base unit needs something, which you clearly recognised by paying $200 to upgrade your ram.
Reread his post. He didn't actually upgrade the RAM. He's just pointing out it's an option and that the Dell is quite price-competitive given its specifications.

I understand you're trying to give the Loox some exposure, and that's great, but it's not the only option.

--janak

surur
01-03-2005, 01:47 AM
I agree. If I rant on further I will probably cause more harm to the cause than good. I shall therefore summarize:

In my opinion the Loox 720 is a high end unit with a very good combination of features which deserves to be considered against the HP 4700 and (if you can afford it) above the Dell v50x.

Surur

Ripper014
01-03-2005, 01:48 AM
I am not so sure he is trying to give the Loox any exposure... it is probably the best option for a PPC at this time. I own a Toshiba e830 but I do not kid myself that the Loox is the best overall PPC available.

As for the large amount of rom on the Hx4700 and x50V... it can be replaced by a storage card... that is all it amounts to. Rom is no safer than a storage card. If you device becomes defective... you can kiss you data on your internal rom good-bye or if the rom itself becomes unusable... the same thing. At least with a storage card... I can move it to another device. Rom is over-rated... and from what I have seen... data transfers faster from most storage cards...

The largest advantage of the Dell and Hp is the faster processor... and I am not sure how much of an advantage that is.

Fishie
01-03-2005, 01:55 AM
Janak, thing is even Sven clearly didnt find the x50v suffiecient, else he wouldnt have dropped 200$ to upgrade its memory so the arguments are fully valid.

Janak Parekh
01-03-2005, 01:56 AM
I am not so sure he is trying to give the Loox any exposure...
I quote Surur directly:I hope I'm doing my small part by raising the awareness of people of excellent alternate products from other than from the "big two".

it is probably the best option for a PPC at this time. I own a Toshiba e830 but I do not kid myself that the Loox is the best overall PPC available.
You're missing a number of variables by simplifying it this way, though.

1. Both the Loox and the e830 are quite a bit more expensive than the X50v. "Best option" often includes price as a factor.

2. Even from a features standpoint, this is not true. For example, the e805/e830 have more flash memory (96MB of flash with 32MB for storage) and a larger screen than the Loox, plus the e805 has VGA out (not sure about the e830, they removed the graphics processor IIRC).

Simple categorizations like this aren't really that useful. I find the "comparison table" over on FirstLoox to be a far better approach -- one can decide, based on their requirements, which unit most closely matches their requirements. And, remember, price is one very important requirement.

As for the large amount of rom on the Hx4700 and x50V... it can be replaced by a storage card... that is all it amounts to.
Actually, in my (limited) experience, flash ROM was faster than storage media I've used on my Pocket PCs. In addition, it's still there even when you swap cards around. I find this a useful distinction because I'll stick in a card with photos, for example, and remove it shortly thereafter -- and as such I find it less suitable for apps. Yes, I know you could theoretically use SD for one and CF for the other, but I personally prefer using the internal flash on my e805 for some things.

--janak

Janak Parekh
01-03-2005, 01:58 AM
Janak, thing is even Sven clearly didnt find the x50v suffiecient, else he wouldnt have dropped 200$ to upgrade its memory so the arguments are fully valid.
Gah! As I mentioned on the last page, that's not what he said. He has not bought the PPC Techs upgrade!

Well for $624 ($424 X50v + $200 PPCTechs RAM upgrade) you get a 624Mhz, 128M RAM, 128M ROM, VGA screen and VGA out capable graphics excellerated, headset/mic jacked, X50v. How much is the Loox?

This is a theoretical argument (on price). Elsewhere on this thread, Sven has pointed out he's just used ROM and found it a fully functional approach to dealing with the fact that his unit has 64MB of RAM.

--janak

Janak Parekh
01-03-2005, 02:01 AM
In my opinion the Loox 720 is a high end unit with a very good combination of features which deserves to be considered against the HP 4700 and (if you can afford it) above the Dell v50x.
Very fairly worded, and I'll accept your opinion. ;)

Unless someone has a new point to make... can we let this thread die? There is no one right choice. These are all excellent units and I think we've hashed out each of their advantages and disadvantages to the smallest iota.

--janak

Ripper014
01-03-2005, 04:22 AM
Ok.. my last post as well on the subject... I would like to correct a few things. I got my Toshiba e830 at the local brick and mortar for $499can... less than the $584can on the Dell site for the x50V... and that includes a $65 discount from Dell.

I choose the Toshiba because I believe is the best value for the money of any of the pocketpc's currently available. However... I stand by the fact that the Loox... is the best current unit.

Also just to be accurate the e830 has 124mb of usable ram... and another 24mb of rom... that I do not use... as I have said earlier... I find saving data on a storage card is more effective... and in my limited experience... faster.

As you guessed... I use my SD card for applications and my CF card for mass data storage... ie. books... movies.. music... etc... seems like the logical thing to do. And of course I backup... and place those files on my desktop computer... unless I am travelling then I leave a copy on a storage card.

Sven Johannsen
01-03-2005, 05:10 AM
To clear up one point, I do have the PPCTech's upgrade on my X50v. My wife does not have the upgrade on her's. I did it because I could...early XMas present. I did it before I had any particular indication that 64M might be too small. For most folks it doesn't seem to be. My wife has not complained about her's..and she would. I did not clearly find it insufficient, I just did it.

From my standpoint, from the Dell to the Loox, I gain some stuff, I lose some suff, and I pay $200 more. Is the stuff I gain important to me...no, (excpet for the camera, which is a deal breaker in any case) Is the stuff I lose important to me...not really. So when it comes to supporting the basic stuff I care about, they both have it. So why should I pay more?

Edit: And after seeing the last two last posts just now, mine too.

Janak Parekh
01-03-2005, 05:17 AM
To clear up one point, I do have the PPCTech's upgrade on my X50v. My wife does not have the upgrade on her's. I did it because I could...early XMas present.
Aaaargh. Thanks for confusing the heck out of me... :P I have to say, honestly, I wouldn't consider that a choice as it invalidates the warranty, and there have been times when I've had to send the unit back.

Fishie: I apologize for the confusion. You were right about Sven's x50v...man, I feel like giving up on this thread. I still claim that the Dell and HP are worth considering. For what it's worth. But maybe not for you guys. ;)

--janak

Janak Parekh
01-03-2005, 05:20 AM
I got my Toshiba e830 at the local brick and mortar for $499can... less than the $584can on the Dell site for the x50V... and that includes a $65 discount from Dell.
That's a great deal. Are you based out of Canada?

I choose the Toshiba because I believe is the best value for the money of any of the pocketpc's currently available. However... I stand by the fact that the Loox... is the best current unit.
I'll continue to debate that. The Toshiba has features the Loox does not, like the larger screen, which is really useful when using SE/OzVGA.

(Talk about an utterly derailed thread. And my attempts to underail it have miserably failed. Oh well. I think I'll shut up now.)

--janak

Anthony3000
01-03-2005, 05:20 AM
The toshiba e830 has 128MB of ram, and 23MB of usable flash ROM

All the important and small programs I have are stored on the flash rom disk, and all the other programs and file are stored on my 1GB compact flash card and 256MB SD card.

Leaving me with almost 128MB of RAM

Ripper014
01-03-2005, 05:46 AM
lol... so when is last post suppose to be the last post.

I am in Vancouver Canada... 2 hours north of Bill's campus...

The price for the Toshiba could be had by anyone this last week. The price prior to that was $549can... still a very good price it you ask me and still cheaper than what Dell was asking.

I do agree with your statement regarding the larger screen. I was not sure I would want larger PocketPC after using a Hp2210 for the last few years... but with what I gain using oz_vga... I am happy I have the larger screen. I don't think I could fully appreciate oz_vga with a smaller screen. BUT in saying this... I think that the larger screen is about the only advantage that the Toshiba has over the Loox... and it could be debated... not by me... but someone who wants a smaller device, afterall... with big screen comes bigger footprint...

Racer-X
01-03-2005, 01:43 PM
lol... so when is last post suppose to be the last post.

I am in Vancouver Canada... 2 hours north of Bill's campus...

The price for the Toshiba could be had by anyone this last week. The price prior to that was $549can... still a very good price it you ask me and still cheaper than what Dell was asking.

I do agree with your statement regarding the larger screen. I was not sure I would want larger PocketPC after using a Hp2210 for the last few years... but with what I gain using oz_vga... I am happy I have the larger screen. I don't think I could fully appreciate oz_vga with a smaller screen. BUT in saying this... I think that the larger screen is about the only advantage that the Toshiba has over the Loox... and it could be debated... not by me... but someone who wants a smaller device, afterall... with big screen comes bigger footprint...
Whoaaaaaaa

Slow down there... We are just a few days into the new year... and you are way... deep... into... your allowed... ellipses quota... :wink: How not to exceed your quota of ellipses in 2005. (http://www.kentlaw.edu/academics/lrw/grinker/LwtaEllipses.htm)

Fishie
01-03-2005, 02:53 PM
To clear up one point, I do have the PPCTech's upgrade on my X50v. My wife does not have the upgrade on her's. I did it because I could...early XMas present.
Aaaargh. Thanks for confusing the heck out of me... :P I have to say, honestly, I wouldn't consider that a choice as it invalidates the warranty, and there have been times when I've had to send the unit back.

Fishie: I apologize for the confusion. You were right about Sven's x50v...man, I feel like giving up on this thread. I still claim that the Dell and HP are worth considering. For what it's worth. But maybe not for you guys. ;)

--janak

No problem, oh and as has been pointed out the Toshiba can be had far cheaper then the Dell if you shop around.

Fishie
01-03-2005, 02:54 PM
I think I'll shut up now.)

--janak

Smartest thing you said all year, then again, the year is still young.

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Janak Parekh
01-03-2005, 07:43 PM
Line-in/recording discussion has been split off:

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=36151&highlight=

--janak

Menneisyys
01-05-2005, 04:31 PM
It (video on the x50v's VGA output) works with the screen off. With it on the performance is equivalent to the vga cf card (skipping every frame). I wonder what the performance of the vga card would be with the screen off also. My benchmarks with betaplayer are certainly a lot better if nothing has to be drawn on the screen.
Surur

Actually, that's AFAIK not really true - Picard has just emphasized at http://discussion.brighthand.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=751428 that BetaPlayer plays everything great on x50v's VGA output, w/o (many?) frameskips:

"I was comparing only the video playback capabilities of the FlyPresenter card and the build-in VGA output of X50v. It's player independent (assuming it can take advantage of hardware acceleration). The X50v VGA output has VGA resolution and the speed is almost same as with the LCD. The FlyPresenter is only QVGA for movies and slower as QVGA LCD."

surur
01-05-2005, 07:47 PM
It (video on the x50v's VGA output) works with the screen off. With it on the performance is equivalent to the vga cf card (skipping every frame). I wonder what the performance of the vga card would be with the screen off also. My benchmarks with betaplayer are certainly a lot better if nothing has to be drawn on the screen.
Surur

Actually, that's AFAIK not really true - Picard has just emphasized at http://discussion.brighthand.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=751428 that BetaPlayer plays everything great on x50v's VGA output, w/o (many?) frameskips:

"I was comparing only the video playback capabilities of the FlyPresenter card and the build-in VGA output of X50v. It's player independent (assuming it can take advantage of hardware acceleration). The X50v VGA output has VGA resolution and the speed is almost same as with the LCD. The FlyPresenter is only QVGA for movies and slower as QVGA LCD."

In the face of overwhelming evidence (and cos I'm a bit tired of this thread :) ) I am forced to concede the Dell Axim x50v has the best video playback of any current pocketpc ;)

Surur

Menneisyys
01-06-2005, 11:17 AM
Another pro-x50v-thing: clocked at 208 MHz, it plays a video for at least 5 hours with a single charge.

http://www.pocketmatrix.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=248785

Menneisyys
01-06-2005, 05:50 PM
BTW, I've just tested the Pocket Loox 720 with

1. moderately strong Wi-Fi signal (about -65 dB)
2. browing the web and posting to some PPC forums paralelly, pretty actively (constant refreshes, posting etc.), in several PIEPlus tabs
3. using the StowAway BT keyboard
4. disabling the Power Save feature of Wi-Fi (the BT keyboad was in Power Saving mode, however - using the latest, 4.1 driver)
5. the screen lighting was just a notch over switched off - perfectly visible screen in a moderately lit room

(BTW, neither the Wi-Fi nor the BT connection terminated during the test - they both were stable.)

The power consumption was some 25% an hour. It is much better than both the x50v and the A730W, particularly if you take into consideration the lack of Wi-Fi power save mode. And, the hx4700 must be even better, accordoing to some stats (I haven't tested it tho)...

I just don't understand why the Dell / ASUS consumes (relatively) far more power than the Pocket Loox/hx4700...

WyattEarp
01-07-2005, 06:35 AM
I just don't understand why the Dell / ASUS consumes (relatively) far more power than the Pocket Loox/hx4700...

It usually means only one of two things:1. The antennas are more powerful therfore consuming more juice or...
2. It just has power hunger hardware that is not designed or badly designed for PDA use.

Menneisyys
01-07-2005, 07:39 AM
I just don't understand why the Dell / ASUS consumes (relatively) far more power than the Pocket Loox/hx4700...

It usually means only one of two things:
1. The antennas are more powerful therfore consuming more juice or...

It can't be the case, because I've seen a lot of Axim x50v users to complain of the relatively low Wi-Fi sensitivity of their device.

(I haven't compared the two devices to each other head-to-head, so I'm not sure they're right or not.)



2. It just has power hunger hardware that is not designed or badly designed for PDA use.

This is exactly what I meant.

Gus
01-08-2005, 05:49 AM
I've been following this forum closely as I'm narrowed down between the Loox 720 and the Axim X50v. I'm very interested in the Loox 720 as I like the better battery life. The screen seems nicer (made by Sony) with better color reproduction. Don't absolutely need 128 mb RAM, though it would be nice. I have 64 mb RAM on my iPAQ 6315 and I have around 30 mb left over at any time. If you look at Looxforums.com, there are a lot of complaints about Bluetooth, which seems annoying since I'll be using BT to connect to the internet via my Motorola phone a few times a day. (Yes I know X50 has this problem too, but Loox user complain much much more about it, making me think this is worse on the Loox).

My main concern, as Janek stated, is support. I discussed this with Expansys, and they cover me for the first 21 days only. I'm still trying to get an answer on where to get it serviced. I haven't needed any service on my PDA's (I've had at least a dozen), though you never know.

Janek... thanks for making a point for the X50v. Do you think that international support is negative enough not to purchase the Loox 720?

Thanks very much.

Menneisyys
01-08-2005, 11:51 AM
The screen seems nicer (made by Sony) with better color reproduction.

It oes seem nicer, but it has certain drawbacks in cases because it's too contrasty - on a less-contrast screen (e.g., the x50v) you can make out darker details far better than on the Loox / hx4700 screen. Personally, I love the srceen of the PL720, but I also admit the x50v can be better in some cases. And, the native VGA out /2700g on the x50v is a great advantage over all the other models. If you want to do any presentation / video watching on a VGA monitor / TV, go for the Dell.

If you look at Looxforums.com, there are a lot of complaints about Bluetooth, which seems annoying since I'll be using BT to connect to the internet via my Motorola phone a few times a day. (Yes I know X50 has this problem too, but Loox user complain much much more about it, making me think this is worse on the Loox).

I use my PL720 thru BT a lot and so far didn't find it more unreliable than my second current PPC, the iPAQ 2210. I'm able to surf the web via BT to a GPRS phone (or, for that matter, Wi-Fi) and a TO SA BT keyboard without any disconnects or problems. Sure, sometimes I have to reset to start BT at all, but it only happens every third or fourth day. So, those BT problems aren't THAT severe/common. I think, before purchasing any machine, you should loan a PL720 for a few days and test it with your BT units.

WyattEarp
01-08-2005, 04:14 PM
I just don't understand why the Dell / ASUS consumes (relatively) far more power than the Pocket Loox/hx4700...

It usually means only one of two things:
1. The antennas are more powerful therfore consuming more juice or...

It can't be the case, because I've seen a lot of Axim x50v users to complain of the relatively low Wi-Fi sensitivity of their device.

(I haven't compared the two devices to each other head-to-head, so I'm not sure they're right or not.)



2. It just has power hunger hardware that is not designed or badly designed for PDA use.

This is exactly what I meant.

Then there is obviously a low db antenna in there that still consumes to much power. Too bad.