Why is Pocket PC stuff, for the most part, not widely available offline?

[emuelle1]

I don't know how it is in other areas, but where I live, you can walk into Radio Shack, Best Buy, or Staples, or any computer/office store, and pretty much all the PDA selection is Palm. Every now and again they'll have ONE Pocket PC and maybe a little software, but hardly any accessories. Pretty much anything I want to buy Pocket PC wise must be done online. That's fine for researching best price, but every now and again it would be nice to just make an impulse buy while I'm out.

Is Pocket PC stuff widely available in other areas?

[emuelle1]

While I'm ranting, I would like to add that it's been decades since Radio Shack sold anything useful, but every now and again I'll drop by there while I'm at the mall with my wife and need to escape from women's clothing for a few minutes. That's about all the time Radio Shack is worth spending in.

[BarePaw]

CompUSA has a better selection. Staples also has a few accessories for PPC.

[Jasmine]

As far as I can tell, CompUSA is the only one that has some useful iPAQ accessories on their shelves. Last weekend I bought the USB power sync travel kit for my hx4705. I'd been having a lot of trouble even finding this online, so I was very surprised (and excited!) to see it on the shelf at CompUSA! :)

Jasmine

[Jasmine]

BTW, CompUSA were selling the USB travel kit for ~$5 less than the HP website.

Here's a pic of what's in the USB travel kit (http://speedcuber.blogspot.com/2004/12/whats-in-usb-power-sync-travel-kit.html).

Jasmine

[FrozenIpaq]

Reason why: Pocket PC's are not widely seen in the "real world" and are not advertised. Asscs are not seen in many stores because of the small popularity of Pocket PC's in the area. PPC's are not as popular as we may all think, i never heard of one until i tried to get a Palm, and this was last year (heard about one in 2000, but it was rather expensive back then.)

Editted: Not many companies sell their products to retail stores, the online community is much larger.

[KimVette]

As it is people on here bitch and moan about $10 and $15 pricetags on software. Think people would be willing to pay $20 to $45 for PocketPC applications with the way they bellyache about low, low online purchase prices? Get real. Distribution, packaging, and printed manuals all cost money and drive up the cost of the products.

[Janak Parekh]

PPC's are not as popular as we may all think, i never heard of one until i tried to get a Palm, and this was last year (heard about one in 2000, but it was rather expensive back then.)
It's changing rapidly. Most people have heard of "iPAQs" now, and the electronics stores I go into generally have a decent selection of Pocket PCs (although I almost never walk into Best Buy, admittedly).

Editted: Not many companies sell their products to retail stores, the online community is much larger.
Right - some companies don't have huge retail models. Palm has been very aggressive in pushing to retail, which is why you see them more, but the marketshare numbers seem to indicate this is having less of an effect as time goes on.

As for accessories, the problem is increasingly the fragmented accessories market. I think you'll find that most devices, including most Palms except the most popular ones, will assume online accessory purchases as it simply costs too much to retail accessories for every device.

--janak

[frankenbike]

As for accessories, the problem is increasingly the fragmented accessories market. I think you'll find that most devices, including most Palms except the most popular ones, will assume online accessory purchases as it simply costs too much to retail accessories for every device.

--janak

The problem is that manufacturers hold the entire market back with their proprietary connectors and manufacturer specific drivers. Hopefully if M$ ever gets off their asses and does the long needed full overhaul of the PPC, along with an aggressive reference re-design, the PPC will have a real future (they really need to make it a competitive multimedia device and stop fragmenting the market). With VGA resolution, PPCs should be able to compete levelly with something like the Archos AV420, but input and output would have to be standardized.

Until that happens, no retail store is going to want to take up display space with a rack of proprietary accessories for each different device.

[Jasmine]

It's changing rapidly. Most people have heard of "iPAQs" now, and the electronics stores I go into generally have a decent selection of Pocket PCs (although I almost never walk into Best Buy, admittedly).
People might have heard of "iPAQs" but might not necessarily know what they are! :roll:

I was having a conversation with a non-gadget persion a few weeks ago and mentioned that I'd bought a new iPAQ. Later in the conversation I happened to mention that I wasn't that into MP3s. The person then asked why I'd bothered buying a new iPAQ! (he thought an iPAQ was basically an iPod) Numerous times I have had to explain to people the difference between an iPAQ and an iPod!! 8O

Jasmine

[JustinGTP]

I find that London Drugs (Canada) or Staples has the best selection of Pocket PC goods offline.

My dad recently got an Ipaq HX4705 and he was talking to CompUSA and they said that they don't plan to have them in store because it was too hard and they said their PDAs sold better online than the stores.

I don't know if this is true as the guy may have no idea to what he was talking about, but it may make sense. As for accessories, I think that there are just so many models that it may be hard to find a good selection and supply it.

-Justin.

[emuelle1]

That's a good point. I know first hand that the only thing I have from my 3700 model that will work with a 3800 model is the CF sleeve. Stylus, sync cable, cradle, nada. Won't work. I was actually shocked to find that the power supply is the same. I can take the adapter from another Ipaq cradle and plug it into my unit to charge.

[PatrickD]

A few years ago the electronics stores near me started out with a small display. This eventually grew to large displays with a wide range of products prominently displayed. Recently I have noticed the size of the displays has shrunk, and some of them have moved the PDAs to the back, and put big MP3 player displays up front. I guess PDAs are no longer the "hot item" anymore. :(

[emuelle1]

Of course, they really aren't marketed either. If you watch one sitcom, how many Ipod commecials do you see?

Maybe we are better off that Pocket PC's are still marketed to us as a "niche" market, rather than being driven by the culture.

I guess most people aren't that thrilled with the all in one gadgets. Most either want a phone and/or text messaging device, or they want an MP3 player, or they want a PIM. They don't seem thrilled with one device that can do all those things.

[frankenbike]

I guess most people aren't that thrilled with the all in one gadgets. Most either want a phone and/or text messaging device, or they want an MP3 player, or they want a PIM. They don't seem thrilled with one device that can do all those things.

I think there may be a lot of truth in that. Thing about PPCs is that if you want to use them for all the different things they can do, it takes technical skill and fiddling to get them that way.

Phone: most PPCs are just too big to carry around casually. If you get one with phone capability in the States, it pretty much has to be provider specific, unless you want to do battle getting the cell provider to activate it. Even with a contract, they're expensive for what you get.

MP3 Player: Windows Media Player sucks for MP3s. At least on my version it has no EQ, and the volume is to low. Transfering MP3s via ActiveStink is too slow to be practical, which means that to utilize the storage cards' space, you need a reader and file transfer and all that other crap. And ActiveStink doesn't have a "My Music" synchronization setup anyway.

As well, for MP3 playing, you must add memory. That means a separate purchase, and/or ridiculous factory prices for too little memory. PPCs aren't made to be MP3 players, it's just something you can get them to do if you're willing to put the effort in.

Text messenging, web browsing and email: This is something you have to figure out for yourself, how to get it all working. There are lots of options to do it, through ActiveStink or WiFi, but they take some technical bodging (such as configuring every different program with ISP settings, WiFi with WEP settings, clicking the right box in ActiveStink, setting the Work/Internet button right, etc).

The summary is that PPCs are not consumer items. They're made for businesses and businessmen. They can do a lot of things that go well beyond that, but it's up to the consumer to make them happen.

Whereas MP3 players, phones, etc., you take them out of the box, put a CD in the drive for the MP3 players, or the sales people fire up the ESNs for the phone, and you're good to go. And of course, all MP3 players and phones are smaller than PPCs.

[emuelle1]

Exactly. Mine works for the MP3 purposes I need, but I normally listen to audio files that are about an hour long. It sure does take forever to transfer then through Active Suck, and like you said WMP is pathetic. Even for voice it's no good. On an hour long file with a 25-30 minute drive, I need to be able to pick up pretty much where I left off. WMP does not allow that. It locks up and you have to soft reset if you want to start an MP3 partway through. I'm sure it's fine for 3 minute songs. Thankfully there's Mort Player, and V 3.1 is pretty darn good for my needs. Then of course, with storage, I can only fit about three or four of them on my CF card at a time because of some other files I need there. And of course when Active Suck wants to drop sync halfway through a file transfer, I have to delete the botched file and start all over again.

Good points.

[Janak Parekh]

The problem is that manufacturers hold the entire market back with their proprietary connectors and manufacturer specific drivers. Hopefully if M$ ever gets off their asses and does the long needed full overhaul of the PPC, along with an aggressive reference re-design, the PPC will have a real future (they really need to make it a competitive multimedia device and stop fragmenting the market).
Unfortunately, while you may see an overhaul of the OS, you'll never see such things like mandated connector interface. MS is a software company, not a hardware company, and every licensee of every software that MS has produced has had leeway on things like this.

In fact, the same situation exists with PalmOS or with every media player on the market. As a matter-of-fact, palmOne itself has a tough time with keeping connectors straight.

Simply put, this is a problematic situation throughout the industry. Smartphones included.

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

People might have heard of "iPAQs" but might not necessarily know what they are! :roll:
True, the iPAQ and iPod brands have gotten crosslinked in consumer's minds. It also depends on the community you're interacting with -- I haven't had that problem too often, fortunately. :)

--janak

[frankenbike]

Thankfully there's Mort Player, and V 3.1 is pretty darn good for my needs. Then of course, with storage, I can only fit about three or four of them on my CF card at a time because of some other files I need there. And of course when Active Suck wants to drop sync halfway through a file transfer, I have to delete the botched file and start all over again.

Good points.

Second Mort Player 3.1 as the player of choice. That should be the standard level of functionality an MP3 player should achieve packaged with PPCs standard.

I transfer everything to the SD card through a card reader. ActiveStink is far too slow to transfer 1 gb worth of files, which is about what I keep on the card.

This is our own adaptability. As a consumer product, such a do it yourself approach is wholly inadequate and laughable.

[frankenbike]

The problem is that manufacturers hold the entire market back with their proprietary connectors and manufacturer specific drivers. Hopefully if M$ ever gets off their asses and does the long needed full overhaul of the PPC, along with an aggressive reference re-design, the PPC will have a real future (they really need to make it a competitive multimedia device and stop fragmenting the market).
Unfortunately, while you may see an overhaul of the OS, you'll never see such things like mandated connector interface. MS is a software company, not a hardware company, and every licensee of every software that MS has produced has had leeway on things like this.

In fact, the same situation exists with PalmOS or with every media player on the market. As a matter-of-fact, palmOne itself has a tough time with keeping connectors straight.

Simply put, this is a problematic situation throughout the industry. Smartphones included.

--janak

Indeed. But M$ has provided, IIRC, reference designs in the past. And at the very least, if USB host functionality and a large driver database were supplied, it would be a boot up for a certain level of device interoperability.

They can also take a leadership role in manufacturer conferences to encourage standardization as a means to consumer acceptance to widen the market.

Unfortunately, at present M$ is actively encouraging dividing the potential market through specialized devices, in particular portable media centers, rather than encouraging specialized interfaces for more generalized devices like PPCs.

As it stands, Linux is making inroads into the combination PMC/handheld market, and M$ is ceding this territory to them.

[uzetaab]

Man, I really wish they would standardise connectors. Not just on PPCs but on other things like mobiles. Thank god for SDIO at least.

Back to the original question though. The single biggest reason why Palm has all the retail shelf space is because they were there first. Back in the old days of the Palm Pilot, there was nothing like it available.The nearest devices where the casio units that had keyboards, but they were twice as large. Then Casio brought out their first stylus device a little while later, but it was an up hill battle from the beginning. They had to beat market share & recognition.

Still to this day, Palm has the recognition. If you tell people that your Ipaq is like a Palm, they know what you're talking about.

[Janak Parekh]

Indeed. But M$ has provided, IIRC, reference designs in the past.
For CE devices? I know they've worked on prototypes, but I don't know if they had reference designs that were close to production-ready.

And at the very least, if USB host functionality and a large driver database were supplied, it would be a boot up for a certain level of device interoperability.
I do believe WinCE supports USB host just fine. It's a matter of integrating the chipset, and a number of Pocket PCs do. Requiring USB host is another matter.

They can also take a leadership role in manufacturer conferences to encourage standardization as a means to consumer acceptance to widen the market.
From what I've heard, the OEMs are actively against that. I don't know what I'm allowed and not allowed to say, but I know MS has had to "choose its battles" with the OEMs.

Unfortunately, at present M$ is actively encouraging dividing the potential market through specialized devices, in particular portable media centers, rather than encouraging specialized interfaces for more generalized devices like PPCs.
I'm not personally a fan of PMCs in general, either Linux or Windows, but I understand their point of targeting a different market than the PDA market. If you even look at the Linux-based ones, most of them have minimalist PDA functions. I'm aware you can install more software on them, but it remains to be seen what % of the target market would do that.

--janak

p.s. Consider dropping the use of the M$ moniker. It just weakens your argument. ;)

[frankenbike]

For CE devices? I know they've worked on prototypes, but I don't know if they had reference designs that were close to production-ready.

It was my understanding that those were used as jumping off points. And I've seen articles which claimed that model such and such was close to the Microsoft reference device.

If they aren't providing reference designs, maybe they should. A design that includes everything the device needs for full input and output capabilities might be easier for manufacturers to get to market and provide a basic level of functionality over a wider range of models than the current, every manufacturer decides what it wants to include method.

I'm really not sure I would have bought the same PPC if I were more aware of the things it couldn't do when I bought it. I wonder how many people are disappointed with their PPCs for similar reasons, but just sort of put them on a shelf somewhere rather than complaining about it on forums?

USB host only became a major issue to me when I wanted to hook up my Axim to phones which are USB only (no serial), which is the trend of most cell phones these days. It's also an issue because I can't hook my digital cameras to it to download pictures from incompatible memory cards, can't use portable USB hard drives, etc.

IMO, the term "Pocket PC" is sort of false advertising in this sense. It can't just be used as a portable, pocket sized PC, at least not every model. USB functionality is now such a basic and universal capability, that it shouldn't be up to individual manufacturers to determine whether they can include it or not.

I'll get along without it for now. But with my next pocket computer, I will choose carefully and may leave the CE market if I can't get what I want at the time in PPC form. I was expecting some big changes with WM2005, but I think this discussion has lowered my expectations a lot, to the point where I think the improvements I'll see will be irrelevant and I'll just be disappointed.

I want a friggin', full funtion pocket COMPUTER, like my desktop computer in my pocket, in the small PPC form factor. They aren't far from that, but it's irritating the things that separate that world from the desktop/laptop computing world. USB host as a standard feature with large driver support (like a desktop) opens the PPC world up immensely, to ordinary keyboards, mice, hard drives, phones, multiple use GPS devices, card readers, printers, scanners, etc. Plug and play!

And why can't we plug our USB client PPCs into our PCs and just use them like any other hard drive without ActiveSync?

The way you make it sound, Microsoft is like some beggar going to these manufacturers with hat in hand saying, "Please use our OS, and you can do what you like with it, since our users don't have very high expectations".

I do believe WinCE supports USB host just fine. It's a matter of integrating the chipset, and a number of Pocket PCs do. Requiring USB host is another matter.

It's just one of those things I think would make the platform more universally flexible, which would mean that the platform could be sold that way as a whole. People don't like to do research on what model has what feature.

From what I've heard, the OEMs are actively against that. I don't know what I'm allowed and not allowed to say, but I know MS has had to "choose its battles" with the OEMs.

This is why I think PPCs will either remain a niche market or disappear entirely.

There's just no marketing leadership to expand the market as a whole, just a bunch of small time competition to cannibalize each other's markets. The PPC as a whole is expanding by cannibalizing the Palm market, but what then? Meanwhile, iPod sales blow PPCs in the water.

I'm not personally a fan of PMCs in general, either Linux or Windows, but I understand their point of targeting a different market than the PDA market. If you even look at the Linux-based ones, most of them have minimalist PDA functions. I'm aware you can install more software on them, but it remains to be seen what % of the target market would do that.

The problem with the PMC market is that most people don't even know one exists. It's also kind of limited, because you have to go through so much trouble to get movies onto it, unlike the ease with which you can put MP3s or whatever on an iPod.

There probably aren't all that many reasons to own a PMC over music player. With music you can listen to it while you work, or pretty much anywhere. Watching movies and TV shows is much more obtrusive and is the opposite of doing work. Which is why I see those functions as being better integrated into a more flexible device that serves multiple functions, the PMC aspect being just a subset of functions.

p.s. Consider dropping the use of the M$ moniker. It just weakens your argument. ;)

But it's soooooo amusing. And if I don't use the $ sign (which is contrived irony, since the $ sign is often used to represent the end of the line of an input string and parameter expansion, and Microsoft doesn't seem to be very interested in user input from the PPC user community that is exploring what PPC devices could be) people might confuse it with Multiple Sclerosis.

[Janak Parekh]

The way you make it sound, Microsoft is like some beggar going to these manufacturers with hat in hand saying, "Please use our OS, and you can do what you like with it, since our users don't have very high expectations".
Again, I'm not sure what I'm allowed to say and not allowed to say... but I can say that CE doesn't have the same market dominance that MS's desktop markets do, and negotiation with OEMs are a two-way street. Believe me, we as MVPs would love to have Microsoft dictate standards on things like connectors. We ask them to. But it's never that simple.

This is why I think PPCs will either remain a niche market or disappear entirely. There's just no marketing leadership to expand the market as a whole, just a bunch of small time competition to cannibalize each other's markets. The PPC as a whole is expanding by cannibalizing the Palm market, but what then? Meanwhile, iPod sales blow PPCs in the water.
This is a problem with a lot of Microsoft's non-desktop platform products in general, including the PMC and WMA-based media players, and why Apple is handily beating them.

There probably aren't all that many reasons to own a PMC over music player.
That's Steve Jobs's argument. Microsoft disagrees; we'll see how it turns out.

But it's soooooo amusing. And if I don't use the $ sign (which is contrived irony, since the $ sign is often used to represent the end of the line of an input string and parameter expansion, and Microsoft doesn't seem to be very interested in user input from the PPC user community that is exploring what PPC devices could be) people might confuse it with Multiple Sclerosis.
I get the computation theory joke/irony, but it still hardly comes across as even remotely funny. Your call -- but I think it makes the poster look far less professional in their arguments, i.e., one of name-calling and not insight.

--janak

[frankenbike]

This is why I think PPCs will either remain a niche market or disappear entirely. There's just no marketing leadership to expand the market as a whole, just a bunch of small time competition to cannibalize each other's markets. The PPC as a whole is expanding by cannibalizing the Palm market, but what then? Meanwhile, iPod sales blow PPCs in the water.

I was thinking about this after I wrote the above. The problem at its core is this: Microsoft originally envisioned WinCE handhelds as slightly better competitors to Palm devices, which wasn't very hard.

Like an employee who is hired to do one thing, who proves to have immense talent at something else, a corporate momentum built-up behind the original mission. Changing the direction of the mission is like trying to steer a big boat around, and those who got on board aren't necessarily interested in going in the new direction.

For example, Dell might not want to have its handhelds competing with its notebook computers (which seems ridiculous, but this is something I was told by a Dell insider and half believe). Nor would they want it to compete with their DJ line of iPodalikes.

On top of that, none of the manufacturers would like to have anything become standardized that would make things easier for their competitors. Or harder to make specialized branded accessories so that they have a captive vertical market (which, with the exception of Apple, hasn't proved successful anywhere else).


This is a problem with a lot of Microsoft's non-desktop platform products in general, including the PMC and WMA-based media players, and why Apple is handily beating them.

You're confirming what I'm saying. Microsoft is not using its money and power to establish the level of leadership it needs to, to turn CE devices into a mass consumer market. It would take the manufacturers working together to do that, which they apparently won't do.

CE manufacturers are like a bunch of little warlords. They could act together to form a nation, or they can fight each other for established market share. The net effect is that instead of a major network TV campaign for PPCs, we get ads in specialty magazines and websites. Selling to the already sold.

Microsoft obviously doesn't stand behind the CE OS enough to put its money where its mouth is. If it was to say, "We're going to have a major international advertising blitz that will increase sales for all of you. If you're willing to let us lead you", maybe they'd get a better level of cooperation. Or not. Most (all?) of the manufacturers are Asian, and they still largely have a feudal mentality.

That's Steve Jobs's argument. Microsoft disagrees; we'll see how it turns out.

Jobs has blitzed the airwaves in the US for months with iPod ads featuring Bono. You see silhouettes of cool people on billboards everywhere you drive with just the white iPods and headphones. What is Microsoft willing to do?

Steve Jobs has a strong case. PMCs are too limited. Add high powered Internet communications (streaming, TV quality video; mail, web, etc) and all the other capabilities of PPCs, and they're the perfect portable entertainment and communications tool. The only problem is that the US lacks the infrastructure to pull that off, as all too many of us here are aware. But if they started with Japan and Korea as the primary targets, they'd have something big and a proof of concept that could help them organize US wireless providers to put the proper packages and pricing together.

I get the computation theory joke/irony, but it still hardly comes across as even remotely funny. Your call -- but I think it makes the poster look far less professional in their arguments, i.e., one of name-calling and not insight.

--janak

I'm not professional. I'm a fickle consumer that doesn't particularly care for Microsoft's aristocratic attitude toward their commoner customers. I could just as easily use something else in the future.

I think PPCs are marginally the best thing that's available, at this time. That's why I use one. It's the closest thing to a cost effective portable, pocket computer, but it's far from the solution I seek. How many people who feel the same way aren't articulating these feelings? Hard to know, except for all the PPCs that people are not buying instead of iPods.

[Janak Parekh]

Microsoft obviously doesn't stand behind the CE OS enough to put its money where its mouth is.
This I substantially disagree with. You don't know what's going on behind the scenes. I only know some things. I do know Microsoft is working very hard on making CE succeed. It's not nearly as easy to coordinate the efforts of a software company and a bunch of hardware companies as it is with one company that does both the software and hardware for a completely controlled platform.

What is Microsoft willing to do?
Work on it for a long time. Microsoft rarely gives things up. People have written them out in the past -- such as Palm and co. It's never quite so simple. ;)

I'm not professional. I'm a fickle consumer that doesn't particularly care for Microsoft's aristocratic attitude toward their commoner customers. I could just as easily use something else in the future.
Absolutely, but I don't mean "professional" in the sense of relation to Pocket PCs. I mean it from a qualitative standpoint. You make much more sense with your arguments than the name-calling.

--janak

[uzetaab]

I must say that I almost completely ignored the 'M$' post earlier. I associate that with people who winge about MS for the sake of it.

"MS products never work properley" etc

If that were really true, no one would use MS. So I generally ignore comments by those kind of people.

[frankenbike]

This I substantially disagree with. You don't know what's going on behind the scenes. I only know some things. I do know Microsoft is working very hard on making CE succeed. It's not nearly as easy to coordinate the efforts of a software company and a bunch of hardware companies as it is with one company that does both the software and hardware for a completely controlled platform.

It doesn't matter what's going on behind the scenes if you can't see it on stage. From the average person point of view, CE devices are invisible. They need to make their mind up about what they want CE to be, and that they want everyone to have it like they all have Windows PCs.

When I tell my sister in law what she can do with her Axim, even though it doesn't have WiFi or Bluetooth, she always seems amazed. She just thinks of it like some sort of Palm Pilot.

Work on it for a long time. Microsoft rarely gives things up. People have written them out in the past -- such as Palm and co. It's never quite so simple. ;)

You can work on something a long time and not have it show much improvement. I have high hopes for WM2005 or whatever, so we'll see. But WM2003SE seems really weak unless you put a lot of effort into putting the right software packages together. The "Today" screen should always have had the built-in capabilities of most plugins, like the desktop like icon placement of TD launch, and the taskbar icons of running programs like Pelmar Wisbar. And the freakin' ability to close programs without using the switcher bar.

Whatever they've been doing up to now, it hasn't been addressing fundamental ease of use issues, and they've been at it for over 6 years. The goal from the start should have been to make Palm devices like miniature PCs. PPCs obviously have the capability, but you have to get a bunch of software happening to get the same user functionality.

Absolutely, but I don't mean "professional" in the sense of relation to Pocket PCs. I mean it from a qualitative standpoint. You make much more sense with your arguments than the name-calling.
--janak

It is, whether they like it or not, a standard .net abbreviation used to refer only to Microsoft. They should embrace it, trademark it (that'll gall the Linuxheads, and it would be a rare public domain trademark capable of registration, the only other example I can think of is "Coke"), even brag about it to their stockholders. Making money is what they're about, and I don't begrudge it (much).

If they trademarked it, it could no longer be an insult, and would annoy people who really hate Microsoft.

[uzetaab]

Hehe. It'd be really funny if Microsoft did copyright M$! I hope they do!