The Eternal Question: How Much RAM Should Your Pocket PC Have?

[Jason Dunn]

I sure did ruffle a few feathers last week when I published my rather poorly-worded article :lol: on <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/articles.php?action=expand,34854">why I thought it was an OK thing</a> that several new devices were shifting towards offering more ROM instead of more RAM. There were quite a few people that disagreed with me - I haven't been involved in a virtual brawl like that in months! 8O Regardless, it certainly got me thinking about what the needs/expectations are of people in the Pocket PC community.<br /><br />I'm headed to Mobius 2004 in Seattle next week, where I'll be meeting with people from Microsoft - and hopefully some of them will be product planning people who are the kind of people that talk to the OEMs about hardware requirements. I'd like to go down there knowing what the Pocket PC Thoughts community wants so I can represent your needs (just call me Senator Dunn :)).<br /><br />So here's the question for everyone: looking at the way you use your Pocket PC in day to day use, how much is the minimum amount of RAM you need to have? Are you fine with 64 MB of RAM, or do you need 128 MB to avoid running out of memory? Or do you have 128 MB and still run out of memory? If you're in the latter group who needs 256 MB, I'm especially interested in hearing about the scenarios in which you run out of memory. Give me some good scenarios to take to Microsoft. <br /><br />I need to ask everyone to be as honest as possible as well - if you use a 64 MB device and day to day don't have memory problems, please select that (I'm in that camp). I'm sure that the W?BIC! factor makes us all <i><b>want</b></i> 256 MB devices, but I want to be as realistic as possible when talking with Microsoft at Mobius.

[David Loendorf]

I am not sure where the problem lies, but I have not been able to have BOTH WiFi and Bluetooth running on my HX4705. If adding another 64mB of ram would solve this then that would be good. :)

[Ed Hansberry]

I install an incredible amount of software to my SD card but even with 64MB in an iPAQ 2215 (which is really ~54MB of "usable" storage) I am still running out of room. My Documents is over 6MB, I have several apps that must run in RAM, I have 6 email accounts set up and Pocket IE's cache is in RAM. It gets tight. I admit I am a power user, but 64MB is just the absolute bare minimum IMHO. 96MB or more would be preferred.

[dlangton]

I install everything possible to storage cards, move almost everything from My Documents to Storage, and even move (certain) system DLL's to storage using a system path trick. I'm still pushing 30MB of storage memory used. I NEED 128 MB of RAM.

[Jason Dunn]

I am not sure where the problem lies, but I have not been able to have BOTH WiFi and Bluetooth running on my HX4705. If adding another 64mB of ram would solve this then that would be good. :)

That sounds like bad programming to me, because I could do that on my 4150 with no problem...but it's true that 128 MB of RAM would probably compensate for the bad programming. ;-)

[Ryan Joseph]

I love the ability to run many programs at once. On my i-mate I can have several programs running and still have 20MB free for programs. It's great! With 64MB, I'm constantly closing programs to ensure that I have enough left to run everything.

And I LOVE the new Emoticons! :D :)
I'm not sure if this community knows it yet, but I love Christmas. I started listening to music in July and now have my car presets set to the Christmas stations around here. I leave a tree in my bedroom year-round and just put up lights yesterday.

Sorry, totally off-topic, I know. But I had to say something.
:) :D :) :) :D :) :D :) :D

[surur]

If the next version of Windows mobile uses RAM only for execution 64Mb would be fine (and I would need a large ROM filestore for my My Documents folder). I would want to have it pre-installed however.

For the current status quo 128Mb is essential, as I use my automatically synchronised My Documents Folder as a kind of backup. I could care less if my apps disappear suddenly, but would not want to lose my Notes and Documents.

Surur

[shb]

When it comes to memory or disk space or clock speed, the old motto always holds true: "If some is good, more is better!"

[bigkingfun]

I chose 64Mb in the poll because I can get by with that if I have to. I tend to install a lot of software, some of which I may use very rarely. If I find myself running out of memory, I can inevitably find something that I really don't need on my PPC. Having said that, I would buy a 128MB device (or even a 256MB if the price wasn't completely outrageous) over a 64MB device if I could get all the same features.

I just bought the x50v with the recent MSN deal and the only reason I chose it over the HP 4700 is the size. If HP made something close to the size of the x50v with 128MB RAM/VGA/BT/WiFi I would have bought it, even if there was a large difference in price.

[ddwire]

I voted for at least 128. I have been using the Audiovox 6601 phone edition from Sprint for the last three weeks now. I moved up from a Hitachi G1000 that only had 32 ram, no where near enough.

I have noticed though in the move from 2002 phone edition to 2003 SE phone edition that the program requirements have increased enormously. My G1000 would require at least 10 meg to run and most often 14-15 meg. That is almost half of the 32. I have noticed the 6601 consuming 33-40 meg of ram during use. In this case 64 would be way short. The radios whether phone, wifi or BT seem to increase the need for program memory.

[Sven Johannsen]

I think there has been a review of the PPCTechs upgrade that indicated that the extra 128 did not solve the wireless problem. Makes me believe it is an OS problem, not a memeory one.

I voted 128M. I use 64M day to day, presently because that is what my 4155 has. With a normal load, most apps loaded to flash card or PPCTechs Ram disk, nothing running (running programs) I have 14.4M free storage andf 16.9M free program RAM. Yes I can slde it to give more program at the expense of storage, but that's where the OS set it, and if I slide it it just puts it back to about split the difference. So my 64M machine really has about 16M of program RAM, after OS, programs, PIM info, etc that need to be in RAM. Is that enough? Generally yea. Does it slow things down? Does it stress the wonderful memory management of the WM OS? I would guess so. Do I think 128M would give me better performance, or at least make me more comfortable when I look at the memeory control panel? Yes. Do I have a gut feel that a VGA device could use some more memory space to process the larger screen? Yes. Enough so that my x50 is at PPCTechs getting the upgrade, at a cost and the expense of the warranty. I think that would have cost me less if Dell had done it right up front. These things started with 16 and 32M. Then they went to 32 and 64. I don't see these much different than desktops. We are not running 640K anymore, or 128M. Most decent systems are coming with 256 as a minimum, with 512 and 1G not uncommon. Its time for PPCs to up the memory. Minimum should be 64M and 128 should be fairly common on the high end models. We keep pushing the multitasking aspect. Lets give it the space to do it well.

[yankeejeep]

As long as there are apps that require installation to main memory in order to function properly, 64MB is not going to be sufficient. I often run well over 32MB just with executing apps. With the 128 on my Toshiba e805, I never need to terminate an operating app simply to free memory for another to execute (though I do periodically do a soft reset due to a couple of apps that don't clean up well after themselves).

I normally install apps to a card with 3 exceptions - apps that require install to main memory, apps/Today plug-ins that run at startup, or any app that has significant performance degradation operating from a card. I still have a couple of the first (HP Mobile Printing will only operate correctly for me only installed to main memory). As far as the third is concerned (performance differences), I only notice degradation in launch times when running from cards since once the app is in executable memory, it is in RAM until closed.

[powder2000]

I voted 128. I use arcpad a lot and notice with bluetooth running (gps 8) ) along with large files, ram gets eaten up fast. I can see such database and mapping programs using at least this much memory while allowing a little left over.

[whydidnt]

I replied 128MB. I can barely get by with 64 MB RAM, but only with a lot of uncomfortable shuffling. If Active Sync could easily sync with files found in Flash storage, I could probably be happy with 64 MB. However, we need to keep in mind that as MS and OEMS add new features and functions, these invariably require additional operating RAM. Witness the amount of used memory moving from PPC 2000 to 2002 to 2003 to 2003SE. I think my original iPAQ only used about 6 MB of space after a soft reset. Now my 4705 uses around 13-14 MB. This additional overhead, coupled with HP's decision to not use XIP flash memory (eating another ~10MB of RAM) leaves the 4705 with just a little more RAM storage space than the 5 year old 3600. Not exactly progress in my opinion.

[Albegor]

That sounds like bad programming to me, because I could do that on my 4150 with no problem...but it's true that 128 MB of RAM would probably compensate for the bad programming. ;-)

Dear Senator Dunn, :wink:

bad programming is exactly the motivation of my vote for the 64Mb of RAM needed even for a heavy use of a PPC.
Bring this issue to the MS staff because if we developers will get 256Mb of RAM or more as standard, we'll get bored and lose the habit of optimizing our memory management routines to provide our users efficient and not-resource-hungry apps and games.
I vote for more ROM and less RAM!

Or... as the great Italian comic actor Totò said:
VOTANTONIO, VOTANTONIO, VOTANTONIO! :deal:

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/media/users/10682/Votantonio.jpg

[capo]

I install to an SD card when it's practical and have 'my documents' there as well, but several apps really want to be installed to RAM to run properly. I find myself uninstalling and reinstalling apps as needed to accomodate the limitations of the 64 MB RAM scheme.

[rwomack]

I find 64mb enough for normal use including development of apps, but would love a built in 5gb hard drive like the mini ipod for data and music storage.

Roger Womack
www.footballdirector.com - Taking fantasy one step further.

[nosmohtac]

I voted for 128 only because you asked for a real world response. At this time, I have not run out of memory with 128 MB of RAM, but Next year may be a different story. I want 256MB.

[VanHlebar]

I replied 128MB also. I have a Dell Axim X50v currently as my main device for daily use. I have all of my software installed to the Built-in Storage or to my 1GB Lexar SD card. The only items installed to main memory are PI, eReader, and CalliGrapher. With that being said, my device has been on in the cradle now since 6:30 this morning when I got into the office. Right now it has only 6.0MB of Storage and 16.2MB of Program memory available. This is after I have moved the slider. If I do a soft reset it ends up at about 9MB of both. This just isn't enough. Trying to play a game like Warring Nations which takes 15MB of program memory to run. I have to perform a soft-rest multiple times during the day because when I try to turn on my wifi I get a message that there isn't enough memory.

I like to read and listen to music at night before I goto bed. I usually will start up WebIS Mail while I am doing this so that it can periodically check my email while I am laying in bed. While doing this I run down to almost zero memory available in Program memory. Most of the time I will have to move the slider over to get all the apps to run properly and even then, while changing pages in eReader, it is very slow.

I think 128MB really would make day-to-day activities much faster. And lets not forget that PPC trumpet the fact that they can multi-task while Palm has smoke and mirrors to multi-task. Well, if I have to soft reset or slide the slider bar over to give me more memory to be able to multi-task, then that's a problem. Escpecially if you were to let the OS perform all the memory management, which I don't. I run Wisbar Adv2 or PPX on my older machines to shut down any application that I am not currently using.

Heres hoping the next generation devices will have 128! :)

-Eric

[yawanag]

I voted for 128 only because you asked for a real world response. At this time, I have not run out of memory with 128 MB of RAM, but Next year may be a different story. I want 256MB.

The same holds true for me. I haven't run out of memory with 128, but I install a lot of software. I install to a Storage Card but some files are installed to Windows and I find myself not installing large game files.

I'd also like to highlight and bookmark more in my ebooks which I don't for fear of running out of space.

[theoak]

Are that many people getting that many out of memory errors at 64MB? Similarly, are that many people getting that many out of memory errors at 128MB?

I question this polls results thus far and if people are voting what they "like" versus what their PPC is acutally telling them. It is my understanding with this poll, that one would only vote the next memory size up if your PPC gave you out of memory errors at your current level.

[webdaemon]

I voted for 64. I think that's all I really need at the moment. I'd like more though. If I had more I might use my PPC differently. Of course, the old PC mantra MORE RAM MORE RAM MORE RAM is always on my mind.

[KevinK]

I just went from a 5550 to an X50v and my biggest gripe so far is the missing 64 megs of ram. I have already run into problems running out of memory, even though I have just got into the habit of installing things to rom. I'm not a fan of this 64 meg thing, even though it makes sense on paper. I want to be able to run what I want, when I want, with a few extra installs into ram, and I'm willing to pay for it (though not $199 for an upgrade that will void my warranty - that's a bit steep). I imagine Dell/HTC could've gotten the 128 in there at relatively low cost. I loved that 128, and thought it was the perfect amount, at least for what PPCs do now. Send the message, Jason, so that my next machine will be that much closer to perfection - if Dell keeps up with this development cycle, I see a very good machine on the horizon for next year.

[redleg]

I am one of those in the GPS community who definitely need more RAM. I voted 128, but I may need 256, just don't know until I try 128 (which I may do pretty soon with PPC Techs). I run ArcPad with GPS on a 3970 and hx4705 and have a number of map layers open at one time and this program can definitely eat up the ram. Running ArcGIS on my desktop regulary can eat up the 384 MB of ram I have, so I can't wait for my FX-55 w/ 1GB to show up later this week! ArcPad itself may be a smaller program, but the shapefiles you load are still the same size. Thankfully I run a CF GPS unit, if I ran BT, I'd be even more in need of RAM. And when the new versions of Excel and Word come out with table support, I know they won't use less RAM. Some people definitely need more, so why don't they at least make it an option on the stock models?

[cubed]

Our company deployes WM applications to our field force. Our data is the most expensive "thing" on the device. We use memory cards to BACK UP data, not to hold our applications, or other applications installed on the device.

In this scenario, we need storage on the device for applications the device will use. Isn't this one of the things MS tells us seperates them from Palm OS? The device should be able to hold complex applications, run complex applications, and accurately multi-task without having to use a peripheral component as a temporary "hard drive".

Memory is cheap and small. Put it in the device and let us use SD and CF for the purposes that they were meant for...holding excessive application data (such as maps for GIS, music for media, etc.), backing up data, and connecting peripheral devices.

64 MB (50% usable) is NOT ENOUGH!!!

[mr_Ray]

I voted 128MB :wink:

My main problems running 64MB RAM were mentioned several times in the other thread :mrgreen: but in summary the problems I had memory wise with my 2210:

-"64" really meant 60/54/whatever according to device
-PIM data takes large chunks of RAM
-Saveral big (well small by desktop standard!!) files in activestink's sync'd my documents folder eat up loooads of space. Manually syncing to SD/CF is too much of a hassle and 3rd party solutions for alternative syncing aren't universally installed.
-IE cache/temp files and other working data nibble away space slowly but surely.
-Several "big" apps (eg planmaker) take ages to start up and consume several MBs RAM. Starting and closing them all the time to fit in RAM restrictions is NOT practical.
-Unreliable results with the masses of DLLs etc. installed being moved out of RAM so they have to stay in there.
If WM2003 gets short of RAM it'll helpfully close down the app you most need open. Bugger.

-Dozens of other reasons!!

Obviously not everyone is equally RAM-hungry, but for many 64MB was just way too claustrophobic. 128MB is a breath of fresh air to me today, but I'm wondering if I'll still be feeling the same 12 months from now...

[Jonathan1]

I NEED 128MB of RAM. Period. The number of programs I'm running at any given time now is making things tight. I am making do with a 512 CF card for now but it really is a piss poor solution. I WAN RAM dang it. If you want to add 128MB of ROM fine. Don't skimp on the stuff the OS and the programs use the most and that is RAM.

[bjornkeizers]

I go for option 4: As much ram as they can fit into it. Same thing with PC's. Sure, I may not directly 'need' 2 gigs of ram and a 4 ghz processor, but they're bloody nice to have anyway! :D

[surur]

I replied 128MB also. I have a Dell Axim X50v currently as my main device for daily use. I have all of my software installed to the Built-in Storage or to my 1GB Lexar SD card. The only items installed to main memory are PI, eReader, and CalliGrapher. With that being said, my device has been on in the cradle now since 6:30 this morning when I got into the office. Right now it has only 6.0MB of Storage and 16.2MB of Program memory available. This is after I have moved the slider. If I do a soft reset it ends up at about 9MB of both. This just isn't enough. Trying to play a game like Warring Nations which takes 15MB of program memory to run. I have to perform a soft-rest multiple times during the day because when I try to turn on my wifi I get a message that there isn't enough memory.

I like to read and listen to music at night before I goto bed. I usually will start up WebIS Mail while I am doing this so that it can periodically check my email while I am laying in bed. While doing this I run down to almost zero memory available in Program memory. Most of the time I will have to move the slider over to get all the apps to run properly and even then, while changing pages in eReader, it is very slow.


Wow you are suffering! Once you have 128Mb ram you will never want to go back :) Out of interest, would you still go for the Dell now, or would you consider the Loox at $50 more?

Surur

[KimVette]

Bring this issue to the MS staff because if we developers will get 256Mb of RAM or more as standard, we'll get bored and lose the habit of optimizing our memory management routines to provide our users efficient and not-resource-hungry apps and games.
I vote for more ROM and less RAM!

How um, shortsighted, to put it politely. ;)

Yeah, curse those damn lazy programmers for making applications such as databases, CAD and GPS so memory-hungry. It's so darn irresponsible of them to have the gall to offer advanced functionality for applications which customers want. It MUST be the developers' fault that such data types are memory hogs!! :D

Want to save a significant amount of memory memory? Beg Microsoft to dump the registry and go back to .ini files in each respective program's install directory for storage of settings (yeah, that'll happen), and a selectable flash ROM storage location for contact/phone book, calendar, and favorite/bookmark data, and make them REQUIRE OEMs to issue patches and ALL OS components in Flash ROM updates and not make them installable to RAM. Make the storage location for temporary internet files a selectable option, or better yet, simply eliminate browser caching altogether.

Or, do what customers WANT and require OEMs to offer 128MB and 256MB RAM options for PocketPCs since RAM is so darn cheap nowadays, and force OEMs to issue OS updates or lose their Windows Mobile licenses/contracts while you're at it.

[moaske]

I must say that in my situation there's no problem really with having 'only' 64MB, though i do have some programs not installed that i would have liked too. But i agree with Ed that's the painfull bare minimum, that even a novice user should have to have things run smoothly enough.
With VGA PocketPC's emerging a 128Megs of RAM would even be a necessity to have program's run smoothly enough on such a 'high' resolution. Even if you install programs mainly to ROM... :?
That brings me to the ROM: if you compare nowadays capabilities of PocketPC's and how they operate similarly to a desktop, i'd reckon 256MB of flashROM would have to be the standard to install your programs, backup of the registry and database stuff, your synced docs and some absolutely important databases like GPS-maps and so on.
So i would really like to see 128 RAM / 256(or more) Flash-ROM. That's how the desktop operates; large disk for programs, docs, etc and enough RAM to run the whole stuff of it (offering decent multitasking).

If that would hit the shelves in the forseeable future, i'd through out my laptop :D 8)

[ricksfiona]

I voted for 256MB.

When I had my iPAQ 3870 which had 64MB, I was constantly running into RAM space problems. When I tried to install applications onto the SD card, performance was VERY flaky. I would never do that again.

Now the I have my iPAQ 5550, life is MUCH better with 128MB of RAM. Though I don't see this lasting very long. As I write this response, I have the following applications running:
Trans/ACT - Database App
Textmaker - WordProcessng
Outlook - e-Mail
Internet Explorer
Windows Media Player

I have 12MB left.

Of the list, I don't need Windows Media Player loaded, which would free up a few MBs.. But not much...

Someone had brought up the VGA issue.. With this much wanted feature, we're going to have icons and interfaces that will require even more space..

I use my iPAQ for work purposes. Basically a laptop replacement... I am currently developing another database application that I will need to run, and will probably take up considerable space. If I was a salesman that travelled a lot, I would probably have GPS installed.. So even more space.

For personal uses, I think a comfortable minimum would be 128MB (w/VGA) and business users 256MB.

During work hours, I could live with a bigger battery to use the extra memory. That is until they develop some more battery efficient RAM and higher efficient battery. I hope the manufacturers give us 256MB as an option soon.

[Deslock]

I voted for 128. 64 is too tight (I routinely run out of memory, even though I install nothing to RAM and tweaked my PPC to free up RAM). 256 is probably overkill, but then again it would allow me install a lot of apps to RAM and get better performance. Even with 128, I wouldn't install many apps to RAM.

[mashtim]

LOL... we all want as much memory as we can get, apparently!

Seriously, though, some of us need large amounts of memory in our every day use.

I personally have been trying to use my pocket pc ONLY during the course of the day (lots and lots of traveling and the small form-factor makes it ideal) and save the laptop-necessary work until I get into a hotel room, but when I need to run Pocket Informant, PlanMaker, GPS, Repligo, calculator and WMP at the same time in order to get where I'm going and to be informed when I get there, the 64MB of RAM in my 6315 just won't cut it. Heck, it never really worked on my 5550, either!

[VanHlebar]

Wow you are suffering! Once you have 128Mb ram you will never want to go back :) Out of interest, would you still go for the Dell now, or would you consider the Loox at $50 more?

Surur

No, I would still get the Dell. I haven't even looked at the Loox though to be honest. I like the Dell units, I have owned an X5, X3i, X30h and now X50v. I really like the Jornada way back when, but I couldn't think of going to an HP. I really like the X50v, it has its flaws but the screen is really nice and I like having the CF and SD slots again like the X5.

Now if I could only get a combined ppc/phone with both Wifi and Bluetooth along with 128MB RAM/128 MB ROM and both CF and SD card slots and I would jump on that in a heart beat! :D

-Eric

[surur]

Now if I could only get a combined ppc/phone with both Wifi and Bluetooth along with 128MB RAM/128 MB ROM and both CF and SD card slots and I would jump on that in a heart beat! :D
-Eric

Dont forget VGA screen, 3G, consumer infrared and rotatable thumbboard (you've got to have a dream, dont ya:) )

Surur

[fireflyrsmr]

when I run copilot live (gps software) I have found that I better leave everything else off. I've got 64 megs now and I store everything possible in a cf card. It would be nice to have most of the apps in the machine.

Ask for larger screen support too or multiple screen support. a machine that would fold and have two screens would be my wish for christmas.

[davast]

Well, I have an iPAQ2210 with the PPCTechs 64Mb T2T extra memory, which does have some 36Mb taken up with programs that don't need to start in RAM, but I only have 16Mb of Ram left &amp; 5.8Mb of storage Rom left in my main memory. When I want to run Copilot Live5 I have to soft reset just to make sure I have enough Ram to run it, otherwise I get "out of memory" warning.

I have voted for 128Mb of Ram but if I had a VGA screen, other databases as well as PI 5 &amp; ListPro running &amp; get a bluetooth keyboard &amp; headphones then I may need 256Mb. Bring on a combination of the 4700 &amp; the 2750.

[sjo]

I voted for 64 but I would love 128. I think it might keep my iPAQ 3950 from freezing up every so often plus maybe it might even speed up MSReader?

[Phoenix]

This topic is amusing to me in part, because months ago when the MPx and its memory capacity were being discussed, I stated that its 32MB of RAM wouldn't be enough, and that 64MB of RAM would be more appropriate, even though it was stated to offer 64MB of ROM for storage. 32MB of RAM I said just wouldn't be enough, but someone (*cough* Jason *cough* :wink: ) accused me of being alarmist.

I don't care what someone is doing, 32MB of RAM just isn't enough. I think for OS, ROM storage, and RAM, there needs to be a minimum of 192MB total. And I think manufacturers need to begin taking a stroll out of the 64 and 128MB camps (in terms of total capacity), and start offering people some real capacity - 256MB at least. Even that is a ridiculously small amount when you consider how people want to be able to use their handhelds. (Hopefully) not long from now when handhelds are sporting HDDs, we'll be thinking about how stupid it was to think that 256MB was too much for us to be asking for.

Manufacturers need to begin thinking about how they can start implementing HDDs into handhelds and smartphones. I think about how I'd love to have an MPx replace half a dozen devices, including my Ipod (which is how I want to be able to use my handheld/smart device). But there isn't enough memory, even with an SD card, to allow it to do exactly that. But until that gets done, people can talk about cost analysis, and power consumption and bla bla bla, but the truth is, manufacturers need to offer people the most capacity that they can, not just compromises. 128MB total is a compromise, and 64 total is just a joke.

[cgavula]

I have an hx4705 and I can run both BT and WiFi at the same time so I'm not 100% certain it's an OS problem either.

I voted for 128MB RAM. I had several PPCs with 64MB RAM before I moved to a 128MB 5555 and I always had memory management issues on those older devices. I have never run into that kind of problem on the 5555. When I moved to the 4705 I did so, knowing I was lowering the amount of available RAM and again - I find when memory is nearly full from running apps things slow down. I will be updating to 128MB as soon as I can.

I am also one of those folks that run GPS apps and they definitely need more RAM and it is NOT about sloppy programming. The analogy I use is that your PPC is kind of like your desk at work - it has a surface on top where you are working on things right now and drawers to store things. I don't care how much drawer space you have (storage card, flash ROM, whatever) if the desk space isn't big enough(i.e. RAM) - big files like maps are really hard to work with. You ever tried to open up a paper map in an area that was too small? And no amount of clever programming is going to fix that. Lack of RAM means more swapping (at minimum) which means longer route calculation times and longer times to swap maps, etc.

As we move to VGA devices and larger storage cards and an "always-on" type of society where we are often connected to the world, more RAM becomes more and more of a need - not just a want.


--Chris

[powder2000]

I have an hx4705 and I can run both BT and WiFi at the same time so I'm not 100% certain it's an OS problem either.

I voted for 128MB RAM. I had several PPCs with 64MB RAM before I moved to a 128MB 5555 and I always had memory management issues on those older devices. I have never run into that kind of problem on the 5555. When I moved to the 4705 I did so, knowing I was lowering the amount of available RAM and again - I find when memory is nearly full from running apps things slow down. I will be updating to 128MB as soon as I can.

I am also one of those folks that run GPS apps and they definitely need more RAM and it is NOT about sloppy programming. The analogy I use is that your PPC is kind of like your desk at work - it has a surface on top where you are working on things right now and drawers to store things. I don't care how much drawer space you have (storage card, flash ROM, whatever) if the desk space isn't big enough(i.e. RAM) - big files like maps are really hard to work with. You ever tried to open up a paper map in an area that was too small? And no amount of clever programming is going to fix that. Lack of RAM means more swapping (at minimum) which means longer route calculation times and longer times to swap maps, etc.

As we move to VGA devices and larger storage cards and an "always-on" type of society where we are often connected to the world, more RAM becomes more and more of a need - not just a want.


--Chris

Wow, nice analogy! Maps are a definite ram hog and I welcome more ram as gps and map software becomes such an integral part of ppc use. Btw, off topic, but I'm starting to think the release of the mpx into the main cell providers is looking rather vaporous!

[jimski]

I typically need 20-30MB of RAM Storage Memory for "must load in RAm programs", My Documents, mail folders, etc. From a soft reset on my 4705, 13.75MB is used by Program Memory. That's with basic files in startup plus Voice Commander. Starting WisBar Advanced, Resco File Explorer and Agenda Fusion jumps Program Memory to 20MB.

With up to 50MB of RAM commited on a 64MB (really about 62) before I start to do anything, there is really not much else to do. Opening WiFi and Bluetooth takes another 4+MB if there is enough usable RAM for them to even open. A soft reset becomes inevitiable.

I think a 128MB RAM/128MB ROM device would be the ideal scenario. With the PPC Techs upgrade on my 4705 that's where I am now, but apparantly HP has gummed up something with the radios and how they look for availbale RAM, so the soft resets are still there.

[allenalb]

ram is cheap. they should cram as much in as possible. but they won't because then they can't force us to buy new models all the time.

[andbrown]

ram is cheap. they should cram as much in as possible. but they won't because then they can't force us to buy new models all the time.

If you're correct, I find it interesting that PPCTechs charges $199 for their X50v 128MB upgrade. I can't imagine that's all labor! 8O

An interesting poll would be along the lines of "how much extra would you pay for 128MB of RAM preinstalled in a device from an OEM?". Start with, say, $125 and go up to the $200 price that PPCTechs is charging. We'd all love gobs of RAM, but how many of us are willing to pay for it...?

[surur]

ram is cheap. they should cram as much in as possible. but they won't because then they can't force us to buy new models all the time.

If you're correct, I find it interesting that PPCTechs charges $199 for their X50v 128MB upgrade. I can't imagine that's all labor! 8O

An interesting poll would be along the lines of "how much extra would you pay for 128MB of RAM preinstalled in a device from an OEM?". Start with, say, $125 and go up to the $200 price that PPCTechs is charging. We'd all love gobs of RAM, but how many of us are willing to pay for it...?

The DEll is $100 cheaper than the HP, and the Loox cost $50 more than the DEll (and less than the HP). Im sure some clever mathematician can work out from there how much 128Mb ROM/128MB RAM costs?

Surur

[Albegor]

Want to save a significant amount of memory memory? Beg Microsoft to dump the registry and go back to .ini files in each respective program's install directory for storage of settings (yeah, that'll happen), and a selectable flash ROM storage location for contact/phone book, calendar, and favorite/bookmark data, and make them REQUIRE OEMs to issue patches and ALL OS components in Flash ROM updates and not make them installable to RAM. Make the storage location for temporary internet files a selectable option, or better yet, simply eliminate browser caching altogether.

That's exactly what I'd like to see, a more efficient standard usage of the ROM by the OS and the OEMs, so that RAM could be dedicated to actually running programs, not storing data.
Storing data in ROM is much safer for the average user and faster than any expansion card.
The heavy user by definition can't get enough of anything :wink:, RAM in particular since he always makes the IMO not-so-correct comparison with desktop PCs, but if I had the option I'd willingly sacrifice some RAM in favour of more ROM. :)

[maxihod]

The DEll is $100 cheaper than the HP, and the Loox cost $50 more than the DEll (and less than the HP).

Well I voted for 128MB .. I've just purchased a Loox720 (Waiting for it to arrive). I was trying to decide between X50V and Loox720 and to me the key deciding point was the RAM of the Loox. I am not that concerned about a fast graphics processor. The loox appears to be fast enough for video at a reasonable bit-rate. I don't need more than that to be honest so 40fps capability doesn't really help me one bit when all I need is 20-25- especially if I'm going to run out of memory when I try to play the higher bitrate files anyway.
Right now I have an X5 which I have been very happy with, and had dell included 128MB in the new X50 I would have gone with that. I load everything in ROM / CF card and clear out explorer cache regularly. I still find that 30-40MB of the 64MB is used up before I run anything. By the time I'm running mail, mediaplayer, and excel (or even planmaker / textmaker) there's not much memory left.

To me more RAM gives me much more flexibilty. I can add more non-volatile storage in the form of a CF card for peanuts. In terms of cost, here in the UK we're looking at £289 for the dell (ex vat) and I managed to get the Loox for £300, so to me there was no argument. For an extra £11 I get more RAM, USB Host, and vouchers for some useful software.

[Darius Wey]

I'm a space hog and I work by the principle: "The more the merrier". :)

I install a whole bunch of programs on my Pocket PC and ideally, I'd like to be able to store it locally in the main memory, as opposed to the storage card, as I don't have to worry about having the card in there to load a program, nor do I have to worry about slower startup times that may be present when having programs on the storage card. In addition, it would be nice to have a respectable My Documents folder size, for my documents, etc. Therefore, I was a sucker for the 256MB poll option. :D

[Ollie03031]

I voted for 128. Email is my problem. I have over 400 emails some with attachments. I know I should delete some but I tend to save them for possable use in the future. Some I need while on travel to refer to. If you move the email to built in storage or to an SD card the machine gets real slow. So main memory is the place I store them.
I also use InkSpot and store the news groups in main memory again because of speed. I want to connect, get my email and news groups and then disconnect. I don't want to wait for a slow storage to the SD or Built in storage. It wastes time and increases my conect costs.

[ziggurat29]

Seems like in the absence of paging capability, the more RAM is warranted if the unit is to be more than a PIM. Though I _might_ by happy to be able to have a system setting to disable the 'smart minimize' feature to avoid manual memory management. Paging is probably not practical to do to flash, I imagine, though, due to the likelihood of consuming its Write lifetime....

[JvanEkris]

I am also one of those folks that run GPS apps and they definitely need more RAM and it is NOT about sloppy programming. :?:

I run TomTom navigator Benelux, and i admit that isn't the biggest chart available (around 62 Mb), but to run TOmTom navigator i use around 5 Mb of RAM, so IMHO that is sloppy programming.......

Jaap

[Phillip Dyson]

I voted for 128, but I will admit that its being short-sighted. Of course when 128 is standard, I will want more.

I pretty much install everything to an SD card except those essentials like Calligrapher and Today plugins.

My biggest problem is not being able to use ActiveSync to synchronize my files because I would have to keep them in RAM. The other solutions for file syncing are livable but some-timey.

I also seem to be limited to how long I can surf the web because between bluetooth and netfront, my Ram seems to disapear so fast that I have to do a soft reset.

Thats why I ordered the Toshiba e830. Its currently on backorder and I am patiently :( waiting.

[wshwe]

My 1st and only PPC is a Tosh e800. I couldn't live with only 64 MB. If that was the only option I'd revert to Palm.

[WyattEarp]

I dispise installing apps to a memory card. It ruins the purpose of having built-in memory and all my programs readily accessible IMO. To me memory cards are only for storing information, files, music etc. I also think that it is part of the reason manufactures haven't created devices with more than 128 MB even though there is an obvious issue with current memory setups.

With apps like TextMaker, PlanMaker, GPS software, etc. that use a lot of RAM I think the least amount of RAM should be 128MB. People do alot of things with their PPCs simultaneously which eats up RAM like a hungry dog. 64 MB just doesn't cut it anymore and hasn't for a long time now. That being said my vote is more more RAM, more ROM but when it says 128 MB or whatever it should all be user-accessible not 128MB minus 5 to 10 MB from the jumpstart that the user cannot remove.

Another idea would be for MS to leave out all their anemic programs from the built-in memory like Word and Excel and make them user installable so we don't have wasted RAM/ROM being taken up that could be better used for mor usefull programs (like TextMaker :D ) if we choose to. There my $0.02.

[WyattEarp]

Our company deployes WM applications to our field force. Our data is the most expensive "thing" on the device. We use memory cards to BACK UP data, not to hold our applications, or other applications installed on the device.

In this scenario, we need storage on the device for applications the device will use. Isn't this one of the things MS tells us seperates them from Palm OS? The device should be able to hold complex applications, run complex applications, and accurately multi-task without having to use a peripheral component as a temporary "hard drive".

Memory is cheap and small. Put it in the device and let us use SD and CF for the purposes that they were meant for...holding excessive application data (such as maps for GIS, music for media, etc.), backing up data, and connecting peripheral devices.

64 MB (50% usable) is NOT ENOUGH!!!

If MS said that then it is partly incorrect. I owned a Palm V and Vx and I not only had complex programs but was installing programs into ROM before the PPC was even invented. But what I missed the most was that the programs were much smaller in size at the time. Basicallly there really isn't much difference between the two. I think it's all a matter of taste.

[Bugblatter]

Want to save a significant amount of memory memory? Beg Microsoft to dump the registry and go back to .ini files in each respective program's install directory for storage of settings (yeah, that'll happen)

Good news, it's (kinda) happened. The way to store settings in .NET applications is in configuration files. They're stored in the app directory and they're just like ini files, except they store the settings as XML.

[Fuego]

More RAM yeah. I'm going to vote 128MB as a balance between needs and economics, but I'd rather have 256MB

Just bought an HP hx4700 and I have just hard reset it because I ended up with less free memory than I had on my 3870, despite installing some things to the iPAQ File Store. So I'm going back to square one and re-evaluating everything that's installed and the memory cost. I'm kind of miffed, since I just want to get on with using this nice new PPC.

I've got Genealogy apps, TTNav3, Multi-media apps, dictionaries and lots of PIM info, not to mention other things.

As for MS Excel and Word, they are an absolute must for me and I can't see how other users in general would not ever use these. However, I accept that my viewpoint is not everyone else's.

If you accept the principle of not burning these into the ROM image, then why stop there? Out goes Outlook, Calendar, Contacts, Task, etc. After all, for many people other apps do a better job in these areas.

So long as they could be fully installed to the File Store (which is after all just an extension of the main ROM), then it should just all come out in the wash.

Current limitations that most PocketPCs suffer from these days are; RAM, Processes (or is it threads, I forget) and Driver Memory. The latter two are operating system constraints, although process limit has partly been addressed by a re-write of the OS that permits applications to use common process/threads - it just needs software developers to make use of it.

The inability to run Bluetooth and Wifi simulataneously on, say an hx4700, is probably due to the two latter mentioned limitations. Clearly it does not affect everyone, as it depends what else you have installed and running.

I suggest getting one of the PHM tools and looking carefully at your processes and determining if they are really needed and considering what you can do about it. Have a close lok at what is in your Start Up folder, too.

[Menneisyys]

I've just tested the latest beta of Phojo 2.6 ( prolly the moost professional on-the-field pic editor program,
http://www.idruna.com/pocketphojo.html ) with 14 Mpixel images. Loading one image took some 45 Mbytes of memory. Definitely not for x50v and hx4700 users :)

[Darius Wey]

I've just tested the latest beta of Phojo 2.6 with 14 Mpixel images. Loading one image took some 45 Mbytes of memory. Definitely not for x50v and hx4700 users :)

14MP images?! Somehow, I'm not surprised by the memory hog. ;)

[Fishie]

Menneisyys is the ultimate power user, discriminating eye, pushing hard and software to its limlits etcetera.
He is what most here can only dream of becoming hahahaha.

:mrgreen:

[Menneisyys]

I've just tested the latest beta of Phojo 2.6 with 14 Mpixel images. Loading one image took some 45 Mbytes of memory. Definitely not for x50v and hx4700 users :)

14MP images?! Somehow, I'm not surprised by the memory hog. ;)

Well, there may be cases when PDA-based editing (&amp; maybe transimitting) even 14 Mpixel images (which aren't that rare any more) on-the-field is a must.

[Menneisyys]

Menneisyys is the ultimate power user, discriminating eye, pushing hard and software to its limlits etcetera.
He is what most here can only dream of becoming hahahaha.

:mrgreen:

Yeah, I certainly like pushing the hardware to its limits - after all, current VGA PDA's are almost as useful as notebooks in tasks like PDF reading, real Internet browsing and stuff :)

[Fishie]

Menneisyys is the ultimate power user, discriminating eye, pushing hard and software to its limlits etcetera.
He is what most here can only dream of becoming hahahaha.

:mrgreen:

Yeah, I certainly like pushing the hardware to its limits - after all, current VGA PDA's are almost as useful as notebooks in tasks like PDF reading, real Internet browsing and stuff :)

No they are not, thats why I have a Sigmarion3.
You really should try it.
I think you would like it a lot.
Too bad about the 64mb of ram though

[Menneisyys]

Menneisyys is the ultimate power user, discriminating eye, pushing hard and software to its limlits etcetera.
He is what most here can only dream of becoming hahahaha.

:mrgreen:

Yeah, I certainly like pushing the hardware to its limits - after all, current VGA PDA's are almost as useful as notebooks in tasks like PDF reading, real Internet browsing and stuff :)

No they are not, thats why I have a Sigmarion3.
You really should try it.
I think you would like it a lot.
Too bad about the 64mb of ram though

Well, I also have a Stowaway BT keyboard and the PL720 - the two together isn't much worse than the Sigmarion :)