Got my X50v - do I really have to wait 8 hours ?

[Dirk]

Sorry if this question is stupid, but the manual says to charge the PDA for at least 8 hours BEFORE using the device. Well, it's charging right now, but I am d y i n g to try it out ... :lol:

Would it harm the PDA / battery life in any way if I start using it while charging (but before it's fully charged) ? What is the theory behind this requirement ?

Thanks a lot,
Dirk

[Jonathon Watkins]

YES, you have to wait. My X50v is charging at the moment and I have 2 hours to go before I can use it.

It has to do with battery conditioning. Basically the first time it charges determines the maximum capacity which future charges can go to. It's important to get the maximum charge right at the start.

You could also take Kati's good adivice here (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=303964#303964) if you are in a hurry. :wink:

You can put the battery in the cradle for the 8 hours, put the device (batteryless) in the cradle, power on from the AC, install stuff, backup (just in case), and when the 8 hours are up, put the charged battery in the device.

I did this just in case it's bad to use the device while the battery is in it and charging for the first time.

[xk]

I don;t think so, my first axim50v was charged for about 3 hours, when the light turned green. and it had no problem. since my first one I have two more, and one was charged for 8 and other 3 hours charging for the first time and both was left on, to see if it made any diffrence and there was no diffrence :roll:

[Jonathon Watkins]

I don;t think so, my first axim50v was charged for about 3 hours, when the light turned green. and it had no problem. since my first one I have two more, and one was charged for 8 and other 3 hours charging for the first time and both was left on, to see if it made any diffrence and there was no diffrence :roll:

Fair enough. My light went green after an hour, but I'm taking no chances. I'm going to do it by the book. I can wait. :wink:

[ADBrown]

Feel free to leave it on the full eight if you want peace of mind, but the battery automatically stops charging once it's at 100%. Lithium-ion batteries don't trickle charge, and don't require 'conditioning'.

[Jonathon Watkins]

Feel free to leave it on the full eight if you want peace of mind, but the battery automatically stops charging once it's at 100%. Lithium-ion batteries don't trickle charge, and don't require 'conditioning'.

Well, it's done now. Peace of mind is a usefull thing to have. :wink:

Now to see how long the battery lasts..........

[ADBrown]

Now to see how long the battery lasts..........

Two to eight hours, depending on how you use it. My advice--try cranking the brightness down to the lowest setting, and see if that works for you. It's still so bright that I never use mine above the minimum, but it saves a whole lot of power.

[Fishie]

Here is a torture test

Play videos over a network with your PC with WiFi(powersave of) while also downloading stuff to a Micro drive thats constantly spinning.
All at maximum brightnes of course.

Feel the pathetic battery heat up and watch the machine stutter and cough before turning itself off in less then an hour.

:devilboy: :devilboy: :devilboy: :devilboy:

[Andy Whiteford]

If all the manufacturers suggest doing an initial long charge of the battery, then I would go with that. There was a good post on Aximsite regarding how these batteries charge and when the light goes green, the battery has reached it's ability to deliver the full voltage needed by the device however it is still not fully charged to capacity.
For those that feel 3 hours is all it needed and haven't noticed any problems with the battery, check it's ability to hold a charge in a year's time - I believe the longevity of these batteries is affected by the conditioning of the battery. I personally have never done any extensive testing of this theory though.

[Darius Wey]

It's also good to remember that the initial battery life will always be shorter until you do 3-4 successive charges. It takes a while for the battery to be conditioned so the touted battery life won't be reached on the first charge.

[Jonathon Watkins]

It's also good to remember that the initial battery life will always be shorter until you do 3-4 successive charges. It takes a while for the battery to be conditioned so the touted battery life won't be reached on the first charge.

Really? :D Ah, good, good.

[ADBrown]

If all the manufacturers suggest doing an initial long charge of the battery, then I would go with that. There was a good post on Aximsite regarding how these batteries charge and when the light goes green, the battery has reached it's ability to deliver the full voltage needed by the device however it is still not fully charged to capacity.
For those that feel 3 hours is all it needed and haven't noticed any problems with the battery, check it's ability to hold a charge in a year's time - I believe the longevity of these batteries is affected by the conditioning of the battery. I personally have never done any extensive testing of this theory though.

That information is specious at best. Lithium ion batteries do not trickle charge--the circuitry automatically stops charging the battery once it reaches capacity, to prevent overcharging. If the light only indicated required voltage, then it would stand to reason that if the light hadn't yet turned green then the battery shouldn't be able to supply the needed voltage, and the Axim shouldn't run. That's obviously not the case.

Lithium ion batteries aren't like old rechargable batteries. They're smart and can take care of themselves without a lot of pampering. Their internal circuitry takes care of monitoring the battery, charging it, insuring that it doesn't suffer ill effects, and shutting it down in the event of malfunction.

And in any event, Dell charges the machines and gives them a two-hour test on battery power before they ship, so it's kind of pointless to assume that this is the first charge.

[Andy Whiteford]

I don't know enough about batteries to argue this point however are you suggesting that a green light after 1 hour indicates a fully charged battery? There must be some reason why Dell and other manufacturers state an initial long charge is required.

[Darius Wey]

I don't know enough about batteries to argue this point however are you suggesting that a green light after 1 hour indicates a fully charged battery? There must be some reason why Dell and other manufacturers state an initial long charge is required.

It's because of battery conditioning. After you've conditioned it, you can charge it and use it without having to go through the arduous task of subjecting everything to "long charges".

[ADBrown]

It's because of battery conditioning. After you've conditioned it, you can charge it and use it without having to go through the arduous task of subjecting everything to "long charges".

Lithium ion batteries don't require conditioning. The initial 'long charge' is mostly pointless, save for the fact that it gives the internal NiMH backup battery a chance to charge, so that if somebody removes their main battery for a minute they don't lose all data. That is almost certainly the only rationale behind the initial long charges.

[Darius Wey]

Lithium ion batteries don't require conditioning. The initial 'long charge' is mostly pointless, save for the fact that it gives the internal NiMH backup battery a chance to charge, so that if somebody removes their main battery for a minute they don't lose all data. That is almost certainly the only rationale behind the initial long charges.

It's not an extensive conditioning process. It's just a first-time kind of thing. Not all batteries are perfect, and while at the consumer level, they tout that it is immune from the memory-effect and this and that, almost certainly at the electrochemical level, there are still imperfections in some aspects, so the first long charge accommodates for this. It merely "prepares" the battery for its long life cycle.

[Janak Parekh]

Andy - the reason it may be charged after 1 hour is because Li-Ion batteries are shipped charged from the factory -- as it's bad for the battery to ship discharged. Also, Li-Ions tend to start wearing out about a year after manufacture by design, and generally start losing charge very rapidly at the two-year mark.

BTW, if you want a nice technical discussion on batteries, check out this useful/handy reference (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9063). Darius - it clearly suggests no conditioning is needed for Li-Ions.

--janak

[ADBrown]

Andy - the reason it may be charged after 1 hour is because Li-Ion batteries are shipped charged from the factory -- as it's bad for the battery to ship discharged. Also, Li-Ions tend to start wearing out about a year after manufacture by design, and generally start losing charge very rapidly at the two-year mark.

BTW, if you want a nice technical discussion on batteries, check out this useful/handy reference (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9063). Darius - it clearly suggests no conditioning is needed for Li-Ions.

--janak

Janak is correct. Just a couple of additions--to be obsessively accurate, LiIon batteries are shipped partially charged, because while it is Very Bad for them to be stored in a discharged state, it's slightly bad for them to be stored, unused, in a fully charged state. It's barely an issue, but it's the sort of thing that battery manufacturers take into consideration. That's why the LiIon cell isn't fully charged when you get it. Also, depending on the battery itself, manufacturer, and other characteristics, a LiIon battery can last up to two years before it begins to lose capacity, and three years before it reaches termination phase. [/i]

[PetiteFlower]

*shrug* it was quite a while ago already, but when I got my Axim X5, it arrived FULLY charged. As in, I turned it on and the battery read 100% right away. I believe they are charged prior to shipping, and any amount of discharge is just what happened on its way to you. I wouldn't worry about "conditioning" the battery for the reasons already stated :)

[ignar]

On my first charge, I didn't even wait for a green light. I left Axim in the cradle for an hour and started to use it. I knew it wasn't good for the battery life, but I got an extra battery, so didn't mind having one a bit shorter than the other. :mrgreen: (By the way, I let another battery charged for more than 24 hours.)

[Darius Wey]

BTW, if you want a nice technical discussion on batteries, check out this useful/handy reference (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9063). Darius - it clearly suggests no conditioning is needed for Li-Ions.

If the battery is shipped partially charged, then it makes sense to provide a long charge in the initial phase. With new additives added to the Li-Ion cell, the typical threshold of each cell is 4.20V, give or take 0.05V per cell.

So with that in mind, most typical Li-Ion batteries require a charge time of around 3 hours, at a set charge current, typically at a derived temperature of 1°C. However, it doesn't stick to this charging principle throughout the entire charging phase. Once the upper voltage threshold is reached, the current and temperature levels drop so as to provide a smooth association curve in the charge cycle. Here, they tout that it is "fully charged".

So this is where the principle of "fast charging" or "partially charging" arises. You can typically "fast-charge" a battery in under an hour. However, in the real-world, the battery is not charged at 100% levels. It typically resides at 70% because you have bypassed the second stage of charging. Instead, you have only achieved the first stage of charging which tells the battery that it is essentially "ready" for use. This initial charge usually takes half the time of the final "topping charge", which takes it back up to the 100% levels.

Li-Ion batteries are immune to overcharge, and the principle behind this is that brief topping charges are implemented to compensate for small discharges of the battery if trickle charging were to occur, which would otherwise render the Li-Ion cell unstable due to its electrochemical architecture.

So you can essentially think as the first "long" charge as a topping charge. Perhaps my earlier use of the word, "conditioning", was misguided, but what I've discussed here is the rationale behind my earlier comments. Where the battery is shipped partially charged, it is unlikely that it has been topped up, so providing a long initial charge can help top up levels. This is also the reasoning behind why it is recommended that you provide a long topping charge every so often to keep the battery in a primed state.

[bsoft]

"Li-Ion batteries are immune to overcharge"

Li-Ion batteries are definately *not* immune to overcharge. In fact, the only reason that you don't have to worry about overcharging Li-Ion batteries is *because* they can be damaged by overcharging.

Because Li-Ion batteries can be damaged, or in rare cases even explode, by being overcharged, every Li-Ion battery pack has an intelligent charging circuit that prevents the battery from being overcharged.

Here are some Li-Ion tips:

- Do not drain your batteries fully. Unlike Ni-Cd, there is no advantage to draining Li-Ion batteries. Li-Ion batteries can be damaged if they are fully drained. Fortunately, battery packs will shut off before the battery is damaged. However, draining your battery excessively and/or frequently will decrease the life of the battery. Your best bet is to keep the battery as charged as possible, as frequently as possible.

- Keep your battery away from extreme heat and cold.

- NEVER short out, disassemble, or otherwise tamper with your battery pack. Li-Ion cells can burn or even explode if they are improperly connected.

- DO NOT puncture, abuse, or otherwise damage your battery pack. Li-Ion cells can explode if punctured.

- DO NOT burn or heat Li-Ion batteries.

- Recycle your batteries. This is especially important for Ni-Cd batteries, less so for Ni-MH, Li-Ion or Alkaline. It's still a good idea, though, and most areas offer free recycling programs.

[Darius Wey]

"Li-Ion batteries are definately *not* immune to overcharge. In fact, the only reason that you don't have to worry about overcharging Li-Ion batteries is *because* they can be damaged by overcharging.

Because Li-Ion batteries can be damaged, or in rare cases even explode, by being overcharged, every Li-Ion battery pack has an intelligent charging circuit that prevents the battery from being overcharged.

That was the connotation of the following part of my statement:

"Li-Ion batteries are immune to overcharge, and the principle behind this is that brief topping charges are implemented to compensate for small discharges of the battery if trickle charging were to occur, which would otherwise render the Li-Ion cell unstable due to its electrochemical architecture."

People commonly think it is immune *because* it has the charging circuitry to prevent catastrophic damage. Hence, why I mentioned that the Li-Ion cell would be unstable otherwise. Read my sentence again - it'll make a lot more sense once you go through it a few times. ;)

[Kai920]

Andy - the reason it may be charged after 1 hour is because Li-Ion batteries are shipped charged from the factory -- as it's bad for the battery to ship discharged. Also, Li-Ions tend to start wearing out about a year after manufacture by design, and generally start losing charge very rapidly at the two-year mark.

BTW, if you want a nice technical discussion on batteries, check out this useful/handy reference (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9063). Darius - it clearly suggests no conditioning is needed for Li-Ions.

--janak

Interesting thread going on here. So what's the verdict? Wait 8 hours or not?

I recently got myself a brand new XDA mini, which had a Li-Ion Polymer battery. Played with it while it was doing the initial charging because, well, I just couldn't resist. I hope that didn't alter the maximum capacity of the battery in any way -- in any case, since it has a user-replaceable battery, I can always buy a new one in a year or two when it starts to become really flakey.

Reason I ask is that I've recently come across a couple of new devices -- a Canon IXUS digital camera and a SE K700i. My friends insisted that they be charged minimum of 8 hours (in the K700i's case, 12 hours), and that they are correct because they are "photography addicts" etc. But my theory is that once the green light comes on, showing the charge is completed, it's not going to do any more charging on its own. I mean, what other good would it be if it did otherwise?