mobilePASSION On Windows Mobile OS Upgrades

[Janak Parekh]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://dalecoffing.typepad.com/my_weblog/2004/11/os_upgrades_a_c.html' target='_blank'>http://dalecoffing.typepad.com/my_w...grades_a_c.html</a><br /><br /></div><i>"I don't think there is a more volatile issue concerning Pocket PCs than upgrades for the Windows Mobile operating system. The subject usually becomes very heated. On one side we have people who feel the absolute need for the latest and greatest, and will buy a new device in a heartbeat to get an upgraded version of Windows Mobile, as well as new hardware. They could care less about an upgrade. This happens to be the same side the OEMs are on. Go figure. On the other side we have all those who feel that since Pocket PCs have a flashable ROM that OEMs should provide upgrades to a much wider selection of devices, and are disappointed when an OEM does not offer an upgrade for their device. I think some of us feel that since we are told that because a device is upgradeable that it is the OEMs obligation to do so when a new OS comes along. I guess the best place to start with this is to clear some of the confusion..."</i><br /><br />Dave chimes in over on Dale's new blog with some insightful discussion on Windows Mobile upgrade policies. I suspect it's not necessarily what we want to hear, but as always, the situation is more complex than it seems at first. Nevertheless, it remains a little frustrating that my e805 Pocket PC and i600 Smartphone will likely never get WMP10. :|

[surur]

My comment posted on Dale's web site:

Another example of Stockholm syndrome.

Yes, there are good business reasons for not offering an upgrade. It would be more profitable to have us buy a new handheld every year. There are relational reasons between the OEM's and Microsoft why they dont have to offer upgrades.

The fact is that as consumers we should not have to care about all these reasons. We care about the platform, but the profitability of HP and Dell should also not be our concern. Is the platform that fragile that a few 10000 people who delay their upgrades for 6 months would destroy it? There are multiple reasons why offering upgrades would stimulate the market, by allowing us to buy more expensive pocketpc's with larger profit margins, that we keep for longer. Imagine making $60 profit over 3 years, instead of $20 every two.

Anyways, these arguments are not our concern. Its clear that CONSUMERS are interested in upgradeable devices, and are DISAPPOINTED (as you so nicely put it) when cynical marketing execs with fully developed upgrade ROM's refuse to release them. Its our right to make our feelings clear, and PUNISH them for ignoring us. If this means actually causing pocketpc's to die, that would be good too, as its not our responsibility to support a consumer hostile business model.

Maybe next time they would develop a better way to do it, with a proper hardware abstraction model and updates straight from Microsoft.

Surur

[homer999]

Every time this issue comes up people are quick to blame the OEMs. Have we forgotten that MS started this flash memory = upgrades concept back when PPC2002 was released?

I remember, so I searched MS and found a page from the old PPC2002 tour which talks about flash memory and future upgrades. I see no disclaimers on this page about OEMs having the final say in that matter.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsmobile/about/tours/ppc/2002/upgradable.mspx

I haven't posted here in so long I couldn't remember my id/pw but I just had to chime in on this issue. I don't want to exonerate the OEMs from any responsibility in this matter, but MS should also feel some of the heat that this issue is generating, not just Dell, HP, etc.

Notice the last sentence "Plus, the updated operating system remains on your device, even after you've reset it." Hmm, could this explain why some of us expected OS upgrades with our PPCs?

[Paragon]

I don't want to exonerate the OEMs from any responsibility in this matter, but MS should also feel some of the heat that this issue is generating, not just Dell, HP, etc.


homer999,

I agree fully with this statement. It is Microsoft who has set the stage. I think it is up to them to handle the present state of affairs in someway. I don't know what the answer is but I do believe that MS should show some direction on this issue in some way. I think they should at least make it clear to the consumer what is happening. From there on I don't know. I have brought it up before, and elsewhere but it has fallen on deaf ears.

Dave

[smirando]

I can understand that some hardware manufacturers won't support their devices indefinitely, including by providing OS upgrades. I do think, however, that manufacturers should disclose clearly and explicitly in their product brochures that there is no guarantee (or likelihood, where this is the case) that an OS upgrade will be offered. In circumstances I have seen, one manufacturer has chosen to offer upgrades in respect of some of that manufacturer's devices but not others. I can understand that, but I'd like to know up front, in clear terms, what the manufacturer's upgrade policy will be.

[Sven Johannsen]

I don't understand why the fact that all the PPCs have flashable ROMs in accordance with MS requirements, indicates, or even implies, that when significant changes are made that you get them. Bug fixes you expect. Enhancements are a good thing. Having an unalienable right to the next major release of the OS, though seems a bit optimistic.

I have installed numerous flash upgrades on 568s, 4155s, 2215s, X5s and X30s. The OSs were updated, and by golly "..the updated operating system remains on your device, even after you've reset it." We do get updates, and they do install as advertised. Every patch, or OS update, I did on my 548, sat in RAM taking up room, and disappeared if I had to hard reset.

[surur]

I think that my trouble with this entire argument is that words like "wave", "movement" and "platform" are being used in a way that suggests the Pocket PC brand as some kind of quasi- political/religous choice. Microsoft and the OEMs have manipulated the market to such a degree that the market feels obliged to do what is best for the OEMs, instead of the other way around.

At the risk of sounding like a paranoid msmobiles-like troll, I seriously worry that "enthusiast" websites are being subverted as an integral part of the Pocket PC sales strategy. When MVPs and well-known czars tell consumers to accept what is good for OEM shareholders, it feels as though the brand is being sold at a new level entirely. Pocket PC becomes less about the devices and more of a primal theology - we must sacrifice our own interests (upgrades) for the sake of the great gods of the market (HP, Dell, others), and not complain about it, lest we upset those gods and hurt their ability to convert other consumers. We all watch excitedly as our "religion" grows or shrinks: will we vanquish Palm?

Let's get real. Our loyalty (if any) to these companies should be based on what they give us - not what we need to do to keep them happy. Even if we are geeks who really like mobile technology, that is no reason to worship at the altar of the brand itself.

A final thought: perhaps consumer brand loyalty will always mean emotional investment in the success of the product. However, I would argue that this should breed solidarity among users rather than sacrifice for the OEMs. Some of us are students still taking our notes on an X5 with 20 MB of free ROM storage. Some of us are small business owners with a 1-year old iPaq. We cannot afford to keep purchasing new devices each year; we do not receive free review models.

If we demand devices that are supported with software upgrades for a significant lifespan (not just until the next model is released), basic economics would suggest that a supply will form. It seems, however, that our ability to "demand" is being inhibited by enthusiast/community sites who advocate for OEM shareholders instead of consumers.


I agree fully with this poster. As rational consumers we should not be blinded by our fanboyism in how we spend our hundreds of dollars. We would be like a battered wife, constantly going back to our husband, trying our best not to provoke him, in case he leaves and kicks us out on the street.

Maybe it is best to leave...

Surur

[Felix Torres]

The very first HPCs didn't have flash rom but were upgradeable.
In fact, I upgraded my first gen NEC Mobile-pro 400 that way.
It cost $100 to get the replacement module and I was happy to get it. The Philips Velo also offered a ROM update, as I remember.

Which is to say, folks have forgotten that there is a reasonable middle ground in this debate; offer the upgrade at a profitable price point. If you like your device and the new OS seems worth $75-100 then you go for it.

If not, well, it still does everything it did when you bought it, no?

I have to wonder how many people complaining of lack of OS upgrades would actually *want* it if they had to pay anything for it...

[homer999]

I don't understand why the fact that all the PPCs have flashable ROMs in accordance with MS requirements, indicates, or even implies, that when significant changes are made that you get them.



When it is marketed as such, a consumer should expect it. That is why there should be some disclaimer or text that says something to the effect that the OEMs have final say and that there are no guarantees.

I have noticed with new OS releases that MS does state that it is up to the OEM to release the upgrade for their particular device and not MS. But again, that wasn't the way it was sold to us in the beginning. And I think that is why some of us do expect upgrades from the OEMs (free or $$$).

MS defines the requirements but puts the final responsibility of supplying upgrades whether it be bug fixes or OS releases in the hands of the OEMs. That is fine. But MS shouldn't advertise the benefits of flash memory if most OEMs have no intentions to take advantage of it.

[Paragon]

I think that my trouble with this entire argument is that words like "wave", "movement" and "platform" are being used in a way that suggests the Pocket PC brand as some kind of quasi- political/religous choice. Microsoft and the OEMs have manipulated the market to such a degree that the market feels obliged to do what is best for the OEMs, instead of the other way around.

At the risk of sounding like a paranoid msmobiles-like troll, I seriously worry that "enthusiast" websites are being subverted as an integral part of the Pocket PC sales strategy. When MVPs and well-known czars tell consumers to accept what is good for OEM shareholders, it feels as though the brand is being sold at a new level entirely. Pocket PC becomes less about the devices and more of a primal theology - we must sacrifice our own interests (upgrades) for the sake of the great gods of the market (HP, Dell, others), and not complain about it, lest we upset those gods and hurt their ability to convert other consumers. We all watch excitedly as our "religion" grows or shrinks: will we vanquish Palm?

Let's get real. Our loyalty (if any) to these companies should be based on what they give us - not what we need to do to keep them happy. Even if we are geeks who really like mobile technology, that is no reason to worship at the altar of the brand itself.

A final thought: perhaps consumer brand loyalty will always mean emotional investment in the success of the product. However, I would argue that this should breed solidarity among users rather than sacrifice for the OEMs. Some of us are students still taking our notes on an X5 with 20 MB of free ROM storage. Some of us are small business owners with a 1-year old iPaq. We cannot afford to keep purchasing new devices each year; we do not receive free review models.

If we demand devices that are supported with software upgrades for a significant lifespan (not just until the next model is released), basic economics would suggest that a supply will form. It seems, however, that our ability to "demand" is being inhibited by enthusiast/community sites who advocate for OEM shareholders instead of consumers.


I agree fully with this poster. As rational consumers we should not be blinded by our fanboyism in how we spend our hundreds of dollars. We would be like a battered wife, constantly going back to our husband, trying our best not to provoke him, in case he leaves and kicks us out on the street.

Maybe it is best to leave...

Surur

Oh come on......fanboyism....mvp...this has nothing to do with this is issue in the least. I think you are both trying just a little too hard to sound like someone else. ;) You can call me a lot of things, fandoy isn't one of them, and the MVP status runs out in a few weeks.

The simple point of the whole issue is that OEMs are going to do what is best for their bottom line.....like it or not. You can whine all you want about your rights to an upgrade....it is becoming less and less likely that you will see one. I'd like to see that happen almost as much as you two. I know it is important to a lot of people. It's just not likley going to happen.

[Paragon]

MS defines the requirements but puts the final responsibility of supplying upgrades whether it be bug fixes or OS releases in the hands of the OEMs. That is fine. But MS shouldn't advertise the benefits of flash memory if most OEMs have no intentions to take advantage of it.

homer999 has made this point a couple of times, and it is a very good one. I personally think that if there are to be any inroads made with this issue it will be in this area. If people only had a better idea of what to expect it would be a lot better. Putting an upgrade policy in place would be a very difficult thing to do. Who knows what tomorrow will bring and how that may affect a policy put in place today....but I think there needs to be some attempt made, and soon..... I can only be called a fanboy so many times. :-)

Dave

[Typhoon]

Yea, I know greed is way too common in coporate businesses and that sucks. But why does anyone here really new Windows MP 10? Just curious... I guess you can use it in landscape mode? But there is many other media player software out there that can do the same thing?

[surur]

The simple point of the whole issue is that OEMs are going to do what is best for their bottom line.....like it or not. You can whine all you want about your rights to an upgrade....it is becoming less and less likely that you will see one. I'd like to see that happen almost as much as you two. I know it is important to a lot of people. It's just not likely going to happen.

Its a simple question of who's side are you on. Are you on the side of the OEM's and their profit, or on the consumer and their legitimate requests.

We all know that in the current system we are at the mercy of the OEM's. The only power we have is to a) Voice our opinions, so other people can use our experiences to avoid our mistakes b) vote with our wallets.

I am engaging in both. I had an O2 XDA 2, but O2 refused to release an upgrade (which we know is available). I terminated my phone contract, and will not buy from O2 again.

And of course I'm telling people to avoid O2 and other OEM's who engage in the same practises.

We dont have a RIGHT to upgrades. We do have a right to ASK for them however, and to act accordingly if we are ignored.

Now if you are not engaging in the same practise, and see it as whining, it sounds like you are siding with the OEM's. In fact, by being quiet, you are endorsing the current system, just like the 50 million non-voters in the USA.

So, this one message wont make much difference, and one missed sale also wont make much difference. However, this is as much as one person can do, and you are doing a whole lot less :roll:

Surur

[surur]

Yea, I know greed is way too common in coporate businesses and that sucks. But why does anyone here really new Windows MP 10? Just curious... I guess you can use it in landscape mode? But there is many other media player software out there that can do the same thing?

It integrates well with desktop wmp 10, and allows use of DRM media, especially music and video.

There are other products that work well, but only MS's will work with DRM stuff (for obvious reasons). If you plan to use any of the music stores other than itunes on the internet, you would benefit from wmp 10.

Surur

[Paragon]

Its a simple question of who's side are you on. Are you on the side of the OEM's and their profit, or on the consumer and their legitimate requests.

I'll be totaly upfront with you on this. I'm right down the middle on this. I know this is a very important issue for many people....why do you think I brought it up. ;) On the other hand I see where OEMs stand. In recent times the prices of Pocket PCs have dropped considerably making it difficult to offer to much and still make a profit. Many have dropped out of the market altogether, while others kind of fade in and out. I would like to see something happen that was acceptable to both sides.

I had an O2 XDA 2, but O2 refused to release an upgrade (which we know is available). I terminated my phone contract, and will not buy from O2 again.


So which carrier did you go to to get your upgrade?

Dave

[surur]

I'll be totaly upfront with you on this. I'm right down the middle on this. I know this is a very important issue for many people....why do you think I brought it up. ;) On the other hand I see where OEMs stand. In recent times the prices of Pocket PCs have dropped considerably making it difficult to offer to much and still make a profit. Many have dropped out of the market altogether, while others kind of fade in and out. I would like to see something happen that was acceptable to both sides.

I had an O2 XDA 2, but O2 refused to release an upgrade (which we know is available). I terminated my phone contract, and will not buy from O2 again.


So which carrier did you go to to get your upgrade?

Dave

I switched to vodafone, and decided to move from a converged device to a 2 device setup. I bought the SE V800 (3G, 1.3Megapixel camera with flash, bluetooth) and plan to buy the Loox 720 over christmas. FSC has a reputation of actually releasing updates, and has promised people a wm2003 SE update to the now defunct 420 series.

It doesnt really matter who I switched to though. The XDA 2 has been a huge earner for O2, and make much more money than comparible non-pocketpc devices. I switched provider as a punitive move against O2, and I hope many other people has followed suite. Again, its simply talking with money, the only language the penny counters understand.

Surur

[Janak Parekh]

plan to buy the Loox 720 over christmas. FSC has a reputation of actually releasing updates, and has promised people a wm2003 SE update to the now defunct 420 series.
It will be interesting to see if people expect FSC to release an upgrade from WM2003SE to "whatever the next version is", and whether or not it will be feasible -- and it's also not clear cut as to how many upgrades an OEM should provide. I'd love to see OEMs provide "exactly one" upgrade, but it also depends on how major that upgrade is.

It's worth noting, BTW, that the relationships between MS and OEMs are different on different platforms. And neither Palm nor Symbian require OEMs to make upgrades, as we have seen, so it's not quite so simple as voting with our feet on this issue to get it rectified. FSC might be an exception -- we'll see.

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

I'll be totaly upfront with you on this. I'm right down the middle on this.
I myself am not quite down the middle -- I'd be happier to see OEMs offer "one upgrade" solutions -- but, ultimately, I look at a device as a "mix of features". OS upgradeability is one of them. I just bought an i600 Smartphone knowing full well it won't have an upgrade to even SE, but that's fine -- the other features balanced it out.

What upsets me more are a) OEMs that imply future upgradeability and then "renege", and b) things like WMP10 being tied to an OEM upgrade, which is not only hurting us but Microsoft when it comes to WMP adoption. Personally, I miss the EUU-like upgrade functionality that existed on Pocket PC 2002 devices, and I think we've taken a step backward there, and would like to see that returned.

--janak

[D1as]

I wonder how will those that advocate the OEM's position feel when windows mobile 2005 is released in a few months...

If your devide supports the new OS, woudn't you want ActiveSync 4.0, for example (edit: for free)?

[Paragon]

Ok, so now we have heard from lots of people saying they are not happy with the present state of affairs when it come to upgrades. No surprise there. ;) Now it would be helpful to hear constructive, realistic ideas on what to do to fix the problem. What do you think Microsoft, and its OEM partners can do that would be acceptable to both sides?

Dave

[Typhoon]

Hey I got a good idea... if the Windows Mobile 2003 SE OS had an update application or applet that, just like Windows XP update, would allow the user to download a WMP10 update to the PDA through internet access by the PDA, then that would work great instead of relying on the PDA manufacturer to supply a new ROM w/Windows MP10. Or does Windows MP 10 rely on specific hardware?

[Janak Parekh]

What do you think Microsoft, and its OEM partners can do that would be acceptable to both sides?
I already mentioned one - EUUs. We had that, and it was used to deliver things like new versions of WMP back in the Pocket PC 2002 days. Obviously this isn't the case for WM2003 -- I hope that Microsoft will somehow restore that feature for future versions of Pocket PC.

--janak

[pgh1969pa]

Its a simple question of who's side are you on. Are you on the side of the OEM's and their profit, or on the consumer and their legitimate requests.
Surur


Sounds like a false equivocation. Many things are more complex than your with us or them. Maybe I'm not with either. I'm not either side of this same old arguement. As an investor, I hold stock in HP and Dell. As a user, I own HP and Dell PPCs. Both the OEMs and users are trying to balance opposite ends of the same equation. Someone is going to be dissatified. The OEMs are trying to optimize profit and please stockholders (as well as the board's bonus). Users are trying to optimize their investment in a handheld.

What I find most fascinating is people are so quick to call Microsoft and the OEMs greedy and seem to rationalize away their own greed in demanding upgrades. It seems like greed is ok as long as you are the recipient but it's wrong when it's someone else. I seriously doubt that PDAs are making Microsoft, HP, etc alot of money. I feel confident that Microsoft is currently taking a bath on Windows CE, Windows Mobile, Tablet PCs, & Media Center PCs but are in it for future profit. Microsoft gets paid by licensing the software and the OEMs get paid by selling hardware. Being that the OEMs are just as rational as all of us users, I believe that if they felt that they could make enough money to make it worthwhile, I think we would have OS upgrades galory instead of the spotty situation we have today. I think the situation is more complex than OEMs=bad guys & users=victims. I would love to have upgrades but I also understand that if it's not available and I feel that I must have the latest and greatest, I can get it by other means. Everybody should know by now that just because MS release something new doesn't mean that it's better or less bug prone. I'd advise everyone to approach anything new from MS critically and don't assume that you'll be better off with it.

OEMs are not pulling out of Palm and PPC because they are making too much money but not enough.

[surur]

Maybe we should all buy shares in HP and Dell, so we can say their refusal to release upgrades will help increase our dividend too.

From my point of view when HP and Dell decided not to offer the OS upgrade lost a lot of potential clients (for the new devices) and if they continue to do so they would lose a lot more. Being a developer and knowing more or less what will come with Windows Mobile 2005 I wouldn’t buy a new device now unless the producer would state that it would be upgradeable to Windows Mobile 2005 (and this is in someway possible because the beta version is out to OEM – some images leaked on the internet). Also looking on MSDN Channel 9 on some interviews I saw some of the test machines for the new Windows Mobile and there were a lot of OLD iPaq’s (series 3000 I think).. which means that in someway the devices are upgradeable.
So my advice for the end user would be not to buy new devices because a lot of things are going to change with Windows Mobile 2005 (especially consumer things like Direct3D for games, Direct Audio etc. and the base platform will be CE 5.0 and not 4.2) – the release is not so far( a couple of months) and I don’t think that you would like to see your device not upgraded to a lot of cool new features.
For OEM’s? I remember when Dell entered the market and changed the price target for the Pocket PC. They won their share of the market with this strategy. I think a strategy towards OS upgrade would help winning market shares.


This post from mobilepassion really worries me. Would buying an expensive device now be REALLY STUPID, when in 3 months time a new OS will be released with much improved functionality ? This really makes you want to move to disposable devices, to make it cheaper to get better functionality. If an OEM guaranteed releasing an upgrade (as they could, as they have preview releases) I would be much less reluctant to spend real money.

Surur

[DarkHelmet]

...
I have to wonder how many people complaining of lack of OS upgrades would actually *want* it if they had to pay anything for it...

Don't spend too much wondering, Mr. Torres. The simple fact is that when the Windows Mobile 2003 OS upgrade was made available for purchase - many people purchased it - so many, in fact, that you cannot find them anymore for some platforms (ViewSonic, etc.) - available anywhere - at any price...

BTW - My iPAQ 3955 (purchased in January 2003) was originally shipped with PPC 2002 - In June 2003 (less than six months) - I purchased my WM2003 upgrade ($29.95 plus shipping and tax) - then in October 2003 the WM2003 SE arrived, obsoleting my iPAQ, from an OS standpoint.

It still works - it is definitely the last PPC I will buy.

Bottom line - get someone else to buy your toys - then you won't feel so bad when they're abandoned by the OEM.

One last thought - my next mobile will likely be a Tablet...

[DarkHelmet]

Ok, so now we have heard from lots of people saying they are not happy with the present state of affairs when it come to upgrades. No surprise there. ;) Now it would be helpful to hear constructive, realistic ideas on what to do to fix the problem. What do you think Microsoft, and its OEM partners can do that would be acceptable to both sides?

Dave

It is so hard for me to believe that the MVPs could be so clueless... The Tablet PC is not perfect - but it is closer to what the PocketPC masses desire in a machine - if not the form factor...

[Sven Johannsen]

Ok, so now we have heard from lots of people saying they are not happy with the present state of affairs when it come to upgrades. No surprise there. ;) Now it would be helpful to hear constructive, realistic ideas on what to do to fix the problem. What do you think Microsoft, and its OEM partners can do that would be acceptable to both sides?

Dave

It is so hard for me to believe that the MVPs could be so clueless... The Tablet PC is not perfect - but it is closer to what the PocketPC masses desire in a machine - if not the form factor...

:?: How does that statement follow from Dave's question?

It would surprise the heck out of me if the PocketPC masses really wanted a 10x12 inch, 2-3lb device, that gets about 3hrs of battery life, takes 2 minutes to boot, for $1500 or more. You can't buy the Tablet OS either incidentally, it's only available installed on OEM hardware. I might be able to see a point there if you had brought up the OQO or flipstart, but those are hampered by battery life, startup times, and price as well, not to mention availability. If it was feasible to cram a full XP machine into a 4155, someone would have done it. Maybe they have done it but would have to sell it for $3000 and no one would buy it. Would you? Do you have a tablet BTW? I do, and it in no way is a substitute for my PPC.

Think about it a little. If you had XP on your 4155 or X50, and could run Office, how much screen would be left after the Word tool bars got done. Keeping in mind you'll want to be able to read them. If you've ever run Nyditot at 1024x768 and compressed into 2x3", you'll understand that.

I would submit that the vaste majority of Windows apps would be virtually useless on a small screen device running XP, without significantly tweaking the UI, or a whole lotta scrolling.

[Paragon]

I'm not sure either Sven?!

I think he needs to adjust the oxygen flow to his helmet. :-)

[KimVette]

It would surprise the heck out of me if the PocketPC masses really wanted a 10x12 inch, 2-3lb device, that gets about 3hrs of battery life, takes 2 minutes to boot, for $1500 or more.

Actually, suspend and hibernate both work extremely well with Windows XP tablet edition, so the 2 minute boot time is misleading. Furthermore, where did you find a Pentium 60 tablet to arrive at that boot time? The ones I've worked with boot in ~20-30 seconds.

You can't buy the Tablet OS either incidentally, it's only available installed on OEM hardware.

Actually you can install any OS on a Tablet that you can on a desktop PC, plus now handwriting recognition is available for the desktop version, as well as for Linux, so that point is moot as well.

[Sven Johannsen]

I'm not sure either Sven?!

I think he needs to adjust the oxygen flow to his helmet. :-)

Lets not get personal, Dave. But of all people to suggest that we are on the dark side.... :roll:

[Sven Johannsen]

Actually, suspend and hibernate both work extremely well with Windows XP tablet edition, so the 2 minute boot time is misleading. Furthermore, where did you find a Pentium 60 tablet to arrive at that boot time? The ones I've worked with boot in ~20-30 seconds.
Suspend sure, that's workable, but I haven't found hibernate to work well on any platform, and it certainly isn't instant on. My Motion 1400 takes 1min 15 sec without having to log in. Add tapping in your username and password, and you certainly don't have a PPC experience.

Actually you can install any OS on a Tablet that you can on a desktop PC, plus now handwriting recognition is available for the desktop version, as well as for Linux, so that point is moot as well.

Yea, and it's no longer a Tablet PC. It is tablet PC hardware with a subset of the tablet PC OS on it.

Point was Tablet PCs are not substitutes for PPCs. Do you think they are? I take it you keep your Tablet PC in your shirt pocket. I didn't even bring up the joys of trying to keep your PIM info updated on your Tablet, unless it is your desktop, or you are attached to an exchange server.

But back to the original topic, that of OS upgrades. I suppose everyone could just install a flavor of Linux on their PPCs. Then all future upgrades forever are free.

[Paragon]

I'm not sure either Sven?!

I think he needs to adjust the oxygen flow to his helmet. :-)

Lets not get personal, Dave. But of all people to suggest that we are on the dark side.... :roll:

Yeah, you're right, Sven. That was a rather dumb response on my part.

Dave

[Janak Parekh]

Actually, suspend and hibernate both work extremely well with Windows XP tablet edition, so the 2 minute boot time is misleading. Furthermore, where did you find a Pentium 60 tablet to arrive at that boot time? The ones I've worked with boot in ~20-30 seconds.
My results mirror Sven's much more closely. I'm using the Portege M3505 with a 1.33GHz P3-M, 7200RPM 60GB disk and 1GB of RAM. Suspend is very fast, but resume takes about 3-5 seconds, and the WiFi takes much longer to reacquire. But the Toshiba's suspend drains battery way too quickly, so I almost always hibernate, which takes over a minute in either direction.

Boot certainly takes over a minute, and I don't have any spyware -- but I do have 4-5 things running on startup.

In short, it still isn't a replacement for my Pocket PC. ;)

--janak

[DarkHelmet]

Actually, suspend and hibernate both work extremely well with Windows XP tablet edition...

...In short, it still isn't a replacement for my Pocket PC. ;)

--janak

I'd like to thank all who entertained this dialog - I realize it was an off-shoot opinion - but I wanted to clairfy that my original response was aimed at answering the question - What can Microsoft and OEMs do to please PPC owners?

The simple answer is - make it possible for owners to remain current in the OS - either make it simple and easy for OEMs to sell - at a reasonable price, say $29.99 - the latest OS upgrade... - or -

Re-design the hardware, not necessarily the form factor, such that a hardware abstraction (a la Windows XP) would allow for Microsoft to "control" the OS, and intelligently determine which new features of a future OS could be installed on the hardware.

I think the average PPC owner really grits their teeth each time they buy a device, only to see it abandoned in it's lifecycle before it's first birthday.

If you don't grit your teeth when new PPCs are "released" - then you're very likely having someone else buy them for you.

[Janak Parekh]

I think the average PPC owner really grits their teeth each time they buy a device, only to see it abandoned in it's lifecycle before it's first birthday.
Not always. Most consumer electronics are like this. I accept the fact, to some extent, that my Pocket PC and Smartphone are outdated the day I buy it. And trust me, it does not help to be an MVP in this regard - I get to see further down the pike as to what they're improving and fixing and it makes me feel my device is even more out of date than it is. ;)

But sure, I'd like it to be better, especially when my e805 hardware is still current yet there's no hope of getting WMP10. That's something I've hammered on repeatedly as an MVP. It would be nice to have, at least, a uniform "one upgrade" policy for Pocket PCs - that would be a reasonable compromise between consumer electronics and computing devices, I think. (In that regard, my e805 did indeed fulfill my expectations, so I guess I shouldn't complain too much.)

--janak

[Paragon]

. It would be nice to have, at least, a uniform "one upgrade" policy for Pocket PCs - that would be a reasonable compromise between consumer electronics and computing devices, I think. (In that regard, my e805 did indeed fulfill my expectations, so I guess I shouldn't complain too much.)

--janak

Janak,

I think having a uniform one upgrade policy would be great.I also think anything that gives the consumer an idea of what to expect would be a positve move.

Davfe

[DarkHelmet]

. It would be nice to have, at least, a uniform "one upgrade" policy for Pocket PCs - that would be a reasonable compromise between consumer electronics and computing devices, I think. (In that regard, my e805 did indeed fulfill my expectations, so I guess I shouldn't complain too much.)

--janak

Janak,

I think having a uniform one upgrade policy would be great.I also think anything that gives the consumer an idea of what to expect would be a positve move.

Davfe

I agree - however, the PPC OEM historical behavior has demonstrated that once you buy the product - you are pretty much "committed" to your choice. I do believe that the EULA and warranties specifically include some verbiage that releases the manufacturers (hardware and software) from responsibility for a device's failure to be useable for a specific purpose.

For me - the bottom line is that I am no longer interested in buying another PPC. Is there anyone out there that can convince me to buy yet another iteration of the PPC? Doubtful, but I am open minded...