You Think Your Job Has Long Hours? Read This

[Jason Dunn]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.livejournal.com/users/ea_spouse/274.html?thread=10514#t10514' target='_blank'>http://www.livejournal.com/users/ea...ad=10514#t10514</a><br /><br /></div><i>"EA's bright and shiny new corporate trademark is "Challenge Everything." Where this applies is not exactly clear. Churning out one licensed football game after another doesn't sound like challenging much of anything to me; it sounds like a money farm. To any EA executive that happens to read this, I have a good challenge for you: how about safe and sane labor practices for the people on whose backs you walk for your millions? I am retaining some anonymity here because I have no illusions about what the consequences would be for my family if I was explicit. However, I also feel no impetus to shy away from sharing our story, because I know that it is too common to stick out among those of the thousands of engineers, artists, and designers that EA employs."</i><br /><br />This is completely off-topic, but I read it and felt it should be passed along, if only to open the eyes of some people (I know mine were) and to put some heat on EA to treat their people with some dignity. Give it a read.

[WolfUK]

What a depressing story. I've been reading about the closure of many small development houses over the last year or so with growing dismay, if only because the trend in games these days seems to be to milk a title dry with multiple updated versions or to simply cash in on movie tie-ins. As someone who grew up in the 1980s, the era of Spectrums and Commodore 64s, I fondly remember stories of bedroom coders and their innovative games but, as was inevitable I suppose, the games indutry has grown up and titles such as Halo 2 generate more revenue on their first day of release than many movies do.

I hope that the family in the main story manage to break away from EA and if I can offer any hope at all it is that I am a software developer myself and I am now working for the most fantastic company whose main goal seems to be to have happy employees rather than worrying about pushing everyone to generate the maximum amount of profits. It is only a small company which may be the reason for the difference but there are good employers out there and taking the risk to find one is well worth it in the end.

[Reza]

It is really amazing how naïve people can be…

Let me give you another view of the same story: I have been working in the videogame industry for over ten years and have been an EA employee since 2002. Here is a reality check: in the videogame industry, long hours come with the job. It’s a highly competitive market, so if you can’t take it, stop pissing about and move on.

I actually consider EA to be one of the best companies to work for. They treat their people better than most game publishers, offer great benefits and a high-quality working environment.

[Phoenix]

It is really amazing how naïve people can be…

Let me give you another view of the same story: I have been working in the videogame industry for over ten years and have been an EA employee since 2002. Here is a reality check: in the videogame industry, long hours come with the job. It’s a highly competitive market, so if you can’t take it, stop pissing about and move on.

I actually consider EA to be one of the best companies to work for. They treat their people better than most game publishers, offer great benefits and a high-quality working environment.

Your perspective is 180 degrees different from the one who wrote that commentary, which is perplexing to me.

If what she wrote is honestly true, then it's reasons like this that just add to why I never want to work for anyone else ever again. But trust me, I have enough of my own.

I have no compassion, patience, or respect for companies that treat their employees like crap. Why would I?

But why try to reason with such a company? They don't listen or care, so trying to reason with them is like throwing pearls to the pigs. Any wisdom directed their way would be wasted.

Every industry in the world is competitive and even aggressive to whatever extent, but since when is this justification for taking a dump on the heads of your employees? Long hours can be common, but six or seven twelve hour days? Oh yeah, no problem. I guess none of it will matter when your dead, right? Gimme a break.

I know there are exceptions, but it seems there is a growing trend in corporate life in regard to employees: use 'em and abuse 'em and work 'em to the bone. Then when they're burned out and have little more to give, show no gratitude or throw them out like garbage. Which unfortunately, is the reality for many. It's as though these companies are in a contest with each other to see who can squeeze the most blood out of a stone.

These things happen everyday. And people wonder why so many become disillusioned with it all.

Is that naive?

[bothari]

in the videogame industry, long hours come with the job. It’s a highly competitive market, so if you can’t take it, stop pissing about and move on.

I actually consider EA to be one of the best companies to work for.

Yes, I'm sure the videogame industry is highly competitive, but so are most other software development industries. 12 hours/day 7 days/week for months is way over the top, apart from plain *bad* project management.

Speaking as a both a software developer and as a project manager, the kind of timings she speaks about reveals quite a bit about the project manager's incompetence or simple inexperience (probably the later). Driving your team that hard for such a long time will usually actually *delay* your project, not meet targets.

Besides which, ask yourself *why* would someone want to "take it"?
Can't be the kudos since working for someone as big as EA, you'll be seen as just a cog in the machine.
Can't be for the money, because EA doesn't pay that well.
Can't be for the fun, because if that's your idea of a *fun* project I'd say you need to have a look around the market. Things are bad but not *that* bad.

Work to live, not live to work...

[Jude]

I can't really sympathize with this story. I know lots of people who work much harder jobs for much longer hours for much less pay.

I agree with Reza, if you can't take it, move on. There are sure to be lots of jobhunters gunning for your position. Some may be willing to do it for a smaller salary and longer hours even, just so they can put a stint in EA on their resume.

I worked in the computer game industry for a year as a writer designer. My hours were reasonable and the pay was decent (but peanuts compared to what EA employees get), but there was no job security, and the job itself was definitely not as exciting as most gamers might imagine. I wasn't happy with it, so I left when my contract ended.

I was also a medical intern in a public hospital, where you have to stay up for 48 hours straight, most of that time on your feet, surrounded by human pain and suffering, making do with insufficient supplies and equipment, continuosly wracking your brain for diagnoses and treatments, and dealing with grumpy, hostile, and even downright cruel residents and consultants. Then after a 12 hour rest period, with occasional interruptions, repeat the above. And you get paid a grand total of $0.00.

[Phoenix]

I can't really sympathize with this story. I know lots of people who work much harder jobs for much longer hours for much less pay.

I agree with Reza, if you can't take it, move on. There are sure to be lots of jobhunters gunning for your position. Some may be willing to do it for a smaller salary and longer hours even, just so they can put a stint in EA on their resume.

I was also a medical intern in a public hospital, where you have to stay up for 48 hours straight, most of that time on your feet, surrounded by human pain and suffering, making do with insufficient supplies and equipment, continuosly wracking your brain for diagnoses and treatments, and dealing with grumpy, hostile, and even downright cruel residents and consultants. Then after a 12 hour rest period, with occasional interruptions, repeat the above. And you get paid a grand total of $0.00.

It's this perspective that worries me. People so often go through so much of this kind of crap that employers dish out, that their perspectives on what is healthy or acceptable become skewed.

[Phoenix]

...the kind of timings she speaks about reveals quite a bit about the project manager's incompetence or simple inexperience (probably the later).

Aren't those one in the same?


Work to live, not live to work...

Amen. There's more to life.

[UtK]

Don't you have a law regulating working time, overtime payment, off days in the United States? 8O "Work or leave" - what an idiotism!

I'm shocked. Why not to sue the company for law violation, health damage, and so on?

[rpommier]

I'm in a profession where long hours are the norm also, IT in the Military. What makes all the difference is attitude and camraderie. That's the problem I have with a lot of public companies, some of those in managerial positions have no business trying to manage human-beings.

If you're going to work people like that you best have them molded into some sort of team to support one another, and have your tail in the fray with them. Have a couple of nights in there where they can just blow off steam and not work at such a blistering pace. And the ultimate carrot a couple of nights off! It's amazing the payoffs you get from treating people like -well- people.

If that is true EA is clueless and it's only a matter of time before this practice bites the whole industry in the arse.

[Mobile_Bear]

I am not in the industry, but I am a Project Manager myself. I have to add that one of the parts I mostly enjoy of my work is team building.

I have no respect for a company or a manager that deals with people only in terms of hours, and the product of those hours.
Long hours are an issue to deal with, believe me it can be dealt with in reasonable, human, fare terms.
It has to do with respect for your team and bulding honesty, self-esteem and pride as a manager.

It remainds me of an abusive parent, who probably received abuse from his father. If you believe (or were educated to believe) abuse is the way to resolve an issue. It is more likely you are going to repeat the pattern, and won't see any way around it.

[CESkins]

Like Jude I can relate to this story because I am currently a resident at a hospital where 80 hrs work weeks are not uncommon. It could be as high as 100 hrs/wk in some cases before the mandatory resident work hrs went into effect. This limited residents work hrs to no more than 80 hrs/wk on average. Just recently completed a month of call where for 30 hrs straight one is taking care of critically ill patients and making life/death decisions in the middle of the night with no sleep. I guess over time you get use to it but I have gone close to 2 wks w/o a break (you normally get 1 day off/wk...4 total/month) and it takes its toll on you physically and psychologically. I can't complain much though. It use to be worse for my predecessors. Imagine admitting up to 20 patients a night and spending most of the next day after getting no sleep writing notes, placing orders, following up on consultant recommendations/lab studies/reports, and responding to a constant barrage of urgent calls/pages...pure hell but I know some of the senior staff (attendings) who literally spent 48 hr days on their feet non-stop like Jude (odd thing is Jude is doing so now). :(

[Snail]

There's a fundamental difference between a med student and a software programmer - career progression.

At least a med student can see an end... and it's often a fat salary, a couple of hours surgery in the morning, and 18 holes of golf in the afternoon... Working the long hours is probably easier if you can see that kind of light at the end of the tunnel. I don't know much about the software industry, but the end reward can't be that good!

Reading the article made me realise my job isn't that bad after all - at least I can leave it behind the gates after a 40 hour week.

[iansmith]

As has been said previously, it's not just EA but all major game companies do this.

The reason is simple. Programmers are paid on salary, so they get no overtime. So why hire an extra 3-4 people for a project when you can simply make them all work 100 hour weeks for the last two months and not pay anything extra. Plus, why make the company stock suffer by missing a deadline when you can make the employees suffer instead.

It's a terrible practice, and saying it's better than being a coal miner is a straw man argument. Working in an American factory and dying at 30 because they used toxic chemicals is better than dying at 12 in a 3rd world shoe factory, but you wouldn't tell the American workers that "if they can't take it, move on" and deal with it.

Back to games... the biggest problem is that managing a team of geeky programmers, weird artists, sound and musicians, stuck up designers and dealing with the marketing department, tools development, various vendors, tons of paperwork, 5 meetings a day and dealing with clueless upper management is a HARD job to do right.

So most management is either headed by somone who tries but just can't get it all to work or somone who is just in it for ladder climbing and does not care if the project fails if he can pass off the blame. The rare person who can make it all work tends to burn out quickly.

I think I am ranting. :-)

I'll end up to say that like the rest of the world, game companies are made up mostly of good people who want to make a quality product. I like about 99% of the people I have met and worked with. But the way businesses work is to promote people good at social networking, not always people good at doing the job.

Ok, NOW I will stop. :-)

[CESkins]

There's a fundamental difference between a med student and a software programmer - career progression.

At least a med student can see an end... and it's often a fat salary, a couple of hours surgery in the morning, and 18 holes of golf in the afternoon...
Hmmm...a lot of people think that it gets easier once you are done..some things do but your responsibilities shift. Only a few fields in the medical profession offer the kind of lifestyle you describe above (Dermatology and Radiolgy perhaps but certainly not General Medicine especially if you are at a Hospital or in solo practice). My wife is up at 6 AM and works most nights 'til 7-8 PM. She is on call (i.e. admits patients to the hospital for 24 hrs 1d/wk and 1 weekend/5 wks). :( Her call schedule is way better than when she was a resident but I would hesitate to say that she is living "the good life" as described above. Unlike myself who have supervisors above me that are responsible for any legal repercussions of my decisions...any medical decision my wife makes, she is 100% responsible for and that is very stressful especially when dealing with patients in a litigenous society. As for the "fat salary", given the fact that your average resident/attending is often owing >$100,000 in student debt at the completion of residency, you spend a significant amount of your salary the 1st few yrs paying off debt. Also not everyone is pulling in >$200,000/yr especially General practicioners. Doctors certainly aren't hurting but given the hrs worked and the social value, we certainly don't get paid as handsomely as some of our business colleagues. I look forward to the lifestyle you describe one day in the far flung future but as you have stated, at least it is something I can look forward to. :)

[CESkins]

The reason is simple. Programmers are paid on salary, so they get no overtime. So why hire an extra 3-4 people for a project when you can simply make them all work 100 hour weeks for the last two months and not pay anything extra. Plus, why make the company stock suffer by missing a deadline when you can make the employees suffer instead.
I suspect that if you couldn't get away with such practices here in the US, most companies would simply export the jobs overseas to some country where they can. :(

[Jon Westfall]

It disturbs me how horribly wrong Human Resource Management is now. I took a course in HRM as an undergraduate from an I/O Psychologist. When its taught from a psychology point of view, you learn that you cannot treat humans like machines and expect them to do what you say just because you said it. Unfortunatly, when a business school teaches HRM, the line of thinking goes something like this:

1. Hire New Person, Fire at will
2. Don't do something that will get the company sued.

Unfortunatly, most managers only listen to HR When they've done something that can get the company sued, then HR gets the blame because they didn't stop them. Its a totally messed up upside-down system.

[Jason Dunn]

Some very interesting comments - thanks for keeping it civil guys!

[Fishie]

EA is an exception.
And even within EA there are big differences with the seperate studios
Life at Tiberon for instance a lot better, then again they have an annual million seller with minimal work each year.
Most of the other teams are a lot worse of.

And no this is not industry wide, like I said EA is an exception and most other developers only have the long houres during crunch time and often they hire external help as well during crunch time, something EA does not.

EA is pushing the industry in a downward spiral and has done so for a while now, Square tried the same in Japan dring the second half of the 90s and eventually failed(forcing them to merge in an unfavourable deal with Enix in order to not go bankrupt alltogether).

For the sake of the industry I hope the same happens to EA.

[lapchinj]

Been there – Done that. For 8 years I was in a similar industry in the beginning of the ‘90s. This was the early days of sound cards, CDROMs and multimedia. This might not seem to bleeding edge today but this was one of “the bleeding edge” technologies of the decade. And there was always a lot of blood. We were always under a some sort of crunch also without compensation for 10-12 hour days. I remember the times where we had a 60 straight hour push. I was able to take off a few days after these but it wasn’t because of a conscientious employer but rather the fact that I was overdosed on caffeine, No-Doze and pizza and just couldn’t go any further.

Anyway I don’t think anyone who hasn’t been there can even imagine what pumping out code in a crunch is like. Most people would ask ‘what are you crying about? if you don’t like it why not just leave?’. Of course this is a double edged sword – you like being an explorer going where no one else has really ever been before. Giving an answer is simple and strange in hindsight but made sense at the time. It was a great high to be on the bleeding edge when people went gaga just looking at sound cards and CDROMs. The biggest high was writing reams of code (proprietary non-portable) making these things rock. I remember a few days after starting this job my boss comes over to me with a preliminary document called MSCDEX that basically described the interface to manipulate a CDROM. He wanted me to write an API using this spec as a guide. You must realize that I never even had heard of or even seen a CDROM before that day but coming from a systems and hardware background on DG and VAX I was gung-ho about the idea. Why would anyone want a CDROM for. But as I soon found out it was all about high quality music and high quality multimedia. That is basically what a “spaced out on code” high is.

But after 8 years I was burnt out big time. Each successive year was getting longer and longer until I just pulled the plug and went into the tamer world (compared to multimedia) programming end user applications such as data entry. No more assembler or C or writing to registers, allocating video memory that some card manufacturer loaded at some off the wall address than everyone else (Tandy), writing drivers and TSR’s or talking parrots that you could hold a conversation with.

This type of environment takes a toll on a person both physically and mentally and eight years was my limit. I don’t think I would ever consider doing this again unless I owned the company. But at least for me the memories are of having a real great time and meeting some really cool and great programmers (AKA the smart people) but all this is at the expense of working and being treated like a dog.

Jeff- :?

[Jason Dunn]

The reason is simple. Programmers are paid on salary, so they get no overtime. So why hire an extra 3-4 people for a project when you can simply make them all work 100 hour weeks for the last two months and not pay anything extra. Plus, why make the company stock suffer by missing a deadline when you can make the employees suffer instead.

That's the crux of it, and man does that ever disturb me how true it is! I've mainly worked for myself for about a decade now, and the type of work I do (like running Web sites) means that there is literally no end to the work. There is easily 168 hours of work for me week after week, without ending. So I've had to find the balance between working hard but still giving time to my family, friends, and self. Demanding that people work 12 hour days six days a week is not balanced, period. Any manager knows that destroying the workforce isn't the way to be productive.

The older I get, the more convinced I am that the stock market is the root of most of the corporate evil I see in the world...

[lapchinj]

... Plus, why make the company stock suffer by missing a deadline when you can make the employees suffer instead.
In my case my boss was not a bad person and wasn't wakling around with a whip. But if we were said to be working on the bleeding edge he was ahead of of all the blood (or he had none). This guy (and his type) never moved slower than supersonic. The only problem was is that we had to keep up him.

Jeff-

[golfingtigger]

I do not agree with posts on this forum that such working conditions should be accepted. Just because such actions are an industry habit does not mean that it is right. This is exactly why unions were implemented... to ensure that work conditions and requirements were acceptable and fair to the common working man and woman.

Whether it be for Hollywood studio support staff, miners, airline pilots, or professional sports teams, labor unions were developed to prevent such practices. If these sentiments are indeed true, then there are ways to combat such efforts.

The drawback, to play my own devil's advocate, is the corruption that sometimes becomes evident in such systems. As they lose sight of their purpose, many cause more trouble than they eradicate.

I do believe that long hours are necessary, but only when it is absolutely the only way to accomplish a specific goal.

[Dopeman]

[quote=iansmith]
The older I get, the more convinced I am that the stock market is the root of most of the corporate evil I see in the world...

Yep thats true, but another problem is that pressure is always passed on from top to bottom and the middle management gets pressure from the top management and is feeling like s*** all his motivation is gone. To find a little relief he passes this pressure on to the people he leads.

But this is the wrong idea, he should protect his employess as he is the leader.

Another aspect is that some managers come dirctly form havard or whatever and have never really worked down at the end of the food chain they have just seen these cool business people in the movies and thats how they act. They act as if it was cool to fire someone and to put pressure on their employees , just to be really hard and dangerous.

I founded a small company in 1999 on the internet bubble and I was just like those managers trying to be cool just watching the profit but then 2002 I started to study economics and informatics , gave up the company (the bubble bursted anyway , and started working as a coder. I found out through the studies and work that there is so much more to managing than just maths but human skills to get a good motivated working enviroment.

Next time I found a company (2006/2007) i'll know that and be a better Manager (i hope). And you dont need the best but the most motivated employees who love their company and are motivated through their identification with the company and the praise when something has been done well, because that is so often beeing forgotten.

[Dr. Grabow]

Hey, we're off topic, but so is the whole thread ...

The public perception of physicians and the reality clash again. Too bad perception seems to win so often. Would be nice if some persons here would not shoot off an opinion based on ... fantasy.

Gee, I get no "salary", I have to provide a service and my time for every single dime I make, and on an hourly basis I make less than a truck driver. I don't get any pay at all, or am deeply "discounted", for a significant minority of the services I do provide. I trained for *12 years* after high school for my job. I am usually "on call" at least by telephone 24 hours per day. I never have time to play golf, and work 7 days a week (no, I'm not exaggerating) except when I get some coverage about once a month. And when I do take a day off, I don't get *paid* time off - I lose income. What am I? A typical physician.


Quote:
There's a fundamental difference between a med student and a software programmer - career progression.

At least a med student can see an end... and it's often a fat salary, a couple of hours surgery in the morning, and 18 holes of golf in the afternoon... Working the long hours is probably easier if you can see that kind of light at the end of the tunnel. I don't know much about the ....

[Jason Dunn]

It's interesting to note how people percieve different careers - it seems everyone thinks that grass is greener on the other side... ;-)

[Lucky Bob]

It disturbs me how horribly wrong Human Resource Management is now. I took a course in HRM as an undergraduate from an I/O Psychologist. When its taught from a psychology point of view, you learn that you cannot treat humans like machines and expect them to do what you say just because you said it.
That reminds me of Catbert: Evil H.R. Director:

http://e.1asphost.com/lbpres/catbert.jpg

[Peter Traugot]

O.K., I'll chime in.

I've worked in the game industry for 12 years. I have worked for EA and a number of other companies, large and small.

I have done everything from make art to manage multiple concurrent projects. Project management is an art form. It requires a keen understanding of the process and the known caveats that ensue.

To that end, I find there are VERY few people who qualify for that role, but sure enough, there are MANY more people in that role than are qualified.

I have no problem with long hours (although I am too old and want to spend more time with my family than I want to work these days.) However, the issue I feel needs to be addressed is the issue of negligent presentation of job requirements by HR and other hiring managers.

The games industry is a youth industry. Hungry, talented, caffeinated young persons industry. If you think you have what it takes to make it in modern game production, go for it.

HOWEVER, when HR and hiring mangers beat around the bush and misrepresent the expectations, or the project manager (and upper management) continuously lie to you about deadlines, then there is an issue. Look, Sh*t happens in production, we all know that. Things slide, take longer, etc. That's what crunch time is all about, but to mislead your employees with a predetermined phantom timeline is just plain wrong. (and likely illegal.) But like people have been saying, if you don't like it, there are fifty other poor innocent slobs who would love the opportunity to sit in your chair.

Oh, I left the games industry this past year. Hopefully, I won't return unless it's under my conditions (yeah, right.)

[karen]

Funny, I'm just ending a two year project that had similar hours. I managed an offshore development project that required me to be awake and working during most of the US and Indian work hours. We started our day at 6:30 am and finished around 2 or 3 am. Our weekends were lighter, but still 7 days a week. Since it was in retail, we had specific seasonal goals.

I loved it.

Many people don't like those types of challenges. We had some of those people on our project. They constantly griped about the long 6 hour days they were putting in. They refused to do production support during offhours. The constantly b*tched about how everyone expected them to put in a full 8 hours a day and put in support hours. I had zero sympathy for them. They were paid by the hour. When they interviewed, they said that they had no problems working 70 hours a week to get caught up. They said they had no problem being on call. They lied to get the job.

I thought they deserved their dissatisfaction. They over promised and under delivered.

These people wanted it both ways - higher rates of contracting and full time employee hours. Heck, even the full timers put in more hours.

I believe that those people, the ones that made a committment, have no business calling themselves professionals.

If you get in a job and the employer lied about the hours, leave and get a new job. If you get in a job and you don't like it, leave. Here's the big secret - development jobs have deadlines. IT pros will always be asked to work long hours on development projects. If you don't want to work long hours, take a maintenance job or a slow paced company job. Just don't try to work in an exciting, deadline-driven job. Oh, and don't expect great pay for these light jobs. Everything in life is a trade-off.

K

[jweisz]

Having been in and out of the game industry (PC & Arcade) since 1980 (currently (& permanently) out), I have a few thoughts about this:
1) 85 hours a week?! What slackers!
2) If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen
3) People really should be compensated for all that time, but...
4) ...Nobody would pay for a game where the shelf price actually reflected the development cost.

IMHO, it boils down to this - if you aren't doing it for the love of the game without thought of being adequately compensated, get out of the industry. For every "rock star" game developer with more money than they know what to do with, there are hundreds (thousands) who are doing what they love for slave wages - many of whom would jump at the chance to work at EA, even after reading the article.

[lapchinj]

I do not agree with posts on this forum that such working conditions should be accepted....
The drawback, to play my own devil's advocate, is the corruption ...
I agree with you 100%. With all the pros and cons if only unions existed you would have corrupt communism and if they didn't exist we would have slave labor or something similar. It just shows that in a capitalist society you need all types of checks and balances - that's what makes this place great -diversity

But so many times a person puts up with a lot of grief because he/she believes the "situation" is bound to get better. Besides this is the work the person really wants to do. Usually I've seen that if the job starts off bad it will continue that way forever.

Could you imagine if we didn't have PPCs - we would be run by a world of mainframes 8O - what a horrible thought.

Jeff-

[Felix Torres]

Well, this has proven to be a very timely posting.
Cause the other shoe just dropped:

http://news.com.com/Electronic+Arts+faces+overtime+lawsuit/2100-1043_3-5450316.html?tag=nefd.hed

Class-action lawsuit against EA.
With, I assume, lots and lots of other California-based software companies to be included, in the class.

This is just starting to get interesting...

[lapchinj]

4) ...Nobody would pay for a game where the shelf price actually reflected the development cost.
If the above were true there would be no minimum wage. Everybody looks for a bargain but at what cost to the quality of living. In order to bring the price of products down we are now offshoring a great deal to other contries. The only reason that they are able to bring the price down is that the quality of life is less in those countries such as longer hours, less pay and and most of all most people in these other contries to not have any benifits. As that quality of life goes up you'll see that prices also go up.

To say that if a person can't take the heat that person should leave. I don't think that a blanket statement like that is so easy to make. In my case I put up with it the garbage because I liked my work not so much the conditions. But that doesn't mean that because I like the work I should be doomed to the mercy of my boss and have to work 80 hour weeks. Fortunatly I have a few frends that unfortunatly put up with all the garbage because they need the job mostly for the medical benifits.

It's a hard call to know when it's time to leave a job.

Jeff--

[Peter Traugot]

I bit more specific to the games industry is the fact that with all of the consolidation occurring, "making a move" is not such a simple task.

When I started in '92, there were likely 40-odd studios in the S.F. Bay area. Now, there are , oh let's see . .1, 2, 3, 4, 5 . . .At best a small hand-full.

Most have been assimilated, many have moved out of the area (certainly many have simply gone belly-up.). How much do you love what you do? How willing are you to relocate and follow the industry? Again, if you are young, your decision might be an easier one than if you have roots.

Many are stuck at EA for just that reason. Also, there is the stigma. Try telling another company that the reason you left was the long hours. How do you think they will respond. Few will admit to being sensitive, most will wonder if you are the slacker.

It's a very tough, incestual industry. One false move and. . . .

[Phoenix]

All of the ridiculous hours that developers or doctors have to put in just to do what they enjoy is testament to a major problem that our society faces. I know I'm speaking on bigger terms here, but it's appalling to me to see industries moving in such an unhealthy direction.

It's like the world got itself in a big damn hurry and it's snowballed with no brakes (intentional misspelling) in sight. We're all over-caffeinated, over-drugged, over-worked, and burned out. We're the walking dead. And what's worse, is that not only are we learning to accept it, we're learning to defend it.

Every industry is peppered with people whose entire lives revolve around and are defined by their careers. If you really choose to work 20 hours a day, then I guess that's your bag. But people have families, lives, hobbies, and many other interests that they need to have time for. If you want to work your life away, and actually enjoy doing so, then go for it. It's your life. But don't you dare suggest that it's healthy, normal, and acceptable, or that it should be. Maybe society has gotten itself into a big fat rut that way, but that is completely unbalanced and unhealthy - I don't care what someone is willing to do or what industry you're working in. Having to do it to make ends meet because you got yourself into it and now you can't find another job out there somwhere in your field to make a living at is one thing (and that's bad enough) - but choosing to do it is worse. Getting out of it is not always so easy - people can't just up and leave so easily. Jobs are not easy to come by but that doesn't justify what industries are doing to society.

You're always going to have work to do. That's just life. People always want to show off by talking about how busy they are. What else is new? Who isn't busy? If it's not one thing, it's another. But if society keeps going in this direction, we're going to kill ourselves even faster than we already are.

In terms of the health industry, why hospitals demand interns and doctors stand on their feet or stay awake for 48 hours straight is just beyond me. This requirement that the health industry has carved out for itself is just stupid and shows that people who don't know what they're doing have been the ones shaping that industry. I don't care who you are, you cannot function and think properly working days on end with little and no sleep. The body and mind were not created to work that way. You'd think that an industry that demands professionals make life and death decisions on a regular basis, would care about creating a work environment that would allow those people to go home and sleep so they can recharge their batteries and come back with a clear head. You know... like human beings. It's like this industry is hellbent on trying to create an army of zombies. It just digusts me to see this, and because this is how things have progressed in this field, it's just accepted as the norm. This is not normal - it is extremely unhealthy, foolish and stupid, dangerous (to the workers and mostly to the patients), and for what? I understand that there are demands that need to be met, and that people don't stop getting sick after 6pm, but is there some sort of nationwide shortage of doctors and interns that demand they must work these ridiculous hours? Why not allow people to work four 12 hour shifts and then give them three days off? That would be acceptable. But demanding people to work for days on end or 100 hour work weeks is just stupid. Where are we headed? 150 active hour work weeks? Talk about an industry that needs to be completely overhauled. People are human beings, not robots.

And unfortunately, many other industries are following this example. As though this is supposed to be OK. It's not OK. People have completely forgotten, have never learned, or don't have enough time to learn (because they're working seven days a week) what the purpose work serves in life. Work is supposed to empower us - it's not meant to be life's centerpiece.

Sure, there are people who are willing to commit themselves to a job that demands they practically or literally sleep at work and avoid seeing the inside of their own homes for weeks, but for what? Doctors have more of an excuse because of what they do. But I would say to individuals and more so to the industries who want to work life away - it's great to love what you do, but what's going to be on your epitaph when it's all over? What are people going to say about you?

There is more to life than just work, and video games, and whatever is related to your industry. People need to step back and recharge. Our values are skewed and our perspectives are skewed because our careers are being led around on a leash by greed.

[Fishie]

Excellent post Phoenix.

[CESkins]

Couldn't have said it better Phoenix and Dr. Grabow...and to just drive the point home about the consequences of being overworked...one of our resident physicians recently died in an auto accident. She was post call (having worked > 24 hrs straight) and on the way home with slowed reflexes and mental processing lost control of her car. Fortunately for her it was over in a matter of seconds...however, many of us lost a close colleague and the society, that so far had already invested thousands of dollars into her education, lost a fine physician. These are the things that make me wonder if it is all worth it but when I see one patient whose life I made a difference in, I forget about the sacrifices incurred by the long work hours.

[rpommier]

Yeah, good post Phoenix!

Even the military recognizes that the human body can only deal with so much stress before we become useless, and we do more harm than good. Why can't other industries recognize this simple fact?

While in Germany we were put through a survival course for a week and a couple of scenarios dealt with depriving us of sleep and overloading us with impossible tasks so that we could experience what it's like to be totally overwhelmed.

Our performance dropped off the chart after 3-4 days... I'm talking constant harrassment while by the agressing team, setting up the encampment and perimeter, guard duty, patrols, and since I was a comm guy, running the network.

Adreneline and coffee will only get you so far, it's amazing they can work doctors like that and still trust them with people, insane. I know I had problem simply programming swithboards after 3 days with no sleep.

If the military can recognize the benefits of having well rested troops I see no reason a freaking game company can't grasp the concept!

[Peter Traugot]

rpommier:

Simple answer. The military is not a Free enterprise driven entity.

[Vidge]

There is more to life than just work, and video games, and whatever is related to your industry. People need to step back and recharge. Our values are skewed and our perspectives are skewed because our careers are being led around on a leash by greed.

Your entire post was dead on but I wanted to comment on this one thing. I've been self-employed for the past 18+ years in an industry that is losing people every day because of the long work hours. I'm an accountant and the crush of filing deadlines is never-ending. I used to be able to work 60-80 hours a week during tax season & then cut back after 4/15 to a reasonable 40-50 hours. That is no longer possible. Every year is worse than the previous one. And I, for one, am tired.

I have reached the point where it just ain't about the money anymore. It's about having a life - time to enjoy my friends and family. HEck - what good is money if you don't even have time to enjoy it???? So 2004 is the last year that I will work 60-80 hours a week year round. I have already notified clients that I am cutting back on my work load. I have eliminated effective 1/1/05 a complete line of my business (financial audits). Yes, I'll take a financial hit in doing so. But better broke than dead.

[Jude]

Thanks for the awesome posts, especially Dr. Grabow and Phoenix, and that other person who related with me.

Just a clarification, I'm no longer in the medical profession. I left it precisely because I couldn't comprehend the unreasonable work hours and incompetent management. It's funny how some doctors look down on "managers" when most of them couldn't manage a lemonade stand. As far as I can tell, those 24 hour plus shifts are somewhat unnecessary and can easily be altered for a more reasonable schedule. They just seem to be a form of "hazing" that the hospitals have kept as standard practice because the attitude is "if I went through that crap you have to go through it too." It's not just the hours, but entire systems like referrals, getting lab results, and requests for procedures that are all bogged down by a set of messy protocols, precisely because they were designed by people who have no business doing so.

But there really is a shortage in the medical and nursing profession though, that's also a factor.

I also left the game industry because of lack of good management. No problem with the hours, but the lack of direction made you feel like an aimless drone. Efficient management is really a problem for many industries that were established by idealists in their field.

Anyway, I've also come to realize that I'm just not cut out to working under a hierarchy and being "managed" and so I've struck out on my own, freelancing. The pay is definitely not as good and as consistent. But time is priceless, and you can't pay for true fulfillment.

[daS]

As someone that has been a software developer, a project manager and a small business owner (i.e., the one signing the paychecks) I'd like to offer my own perspective:

First, programmers are generally horrible at estimating the time required to perform their tasks. There are a number of reasons for this, but I think that the two biggest issues are that many programmers are not familiar with the methods of project planning and because their "artistic" nature makes them want to constantly change things.

But it's management's job to work within these parameters and plan projects accordingly.

If EA's management can't or won't do their job, then the programmers should attempt to influence the project schedules and/or scope. If that fails, then they should simply look for a better place to work. They are not slaves or indentured servants. The employee has the power to leave. High turnover will cause the company to rethink their planning.

I left two companies because I was not happy with my quality of life and I had failed to change the style of senior management. Both times I had to struggle a bit for a while, but ended up better off later.

But I have a question for those that believe that the company is evil to take advantage of those that are willing to work long hours for fixed salaries: Back in the height of the "dot-com" era, software companies in the Silicon Valley were paying programmers major "six-figure" salaries, offering huge bonuses, giving gym memberships, cars, and other perks to compete for the limited number of programmers. Should the Government (or someone else) limited the compensation packages offered to protect these companies from those "greedy" employees?

[Jacob]

You're right that noone forces them to work there, but nothing forces the employer to treat their employees poorly either.

Which is more moral? Mistreating people or working?

[daS]

Which is more moral? Mistreating people or working?
As I said, a company that mistreats their employees deserves to lose their employees and the rest of their business too.

It's possible for a company to be good to their employees and highly successful. David Packard and Bill Hewlett proved that for more than half a century. (Too bad Carly didn't learn the "HP Way". :cry: )

[CME2C]

All of the ridiculous hours that developers or doctors have to put in just to do what they enjoy is testament to a major problem that our society faces. I know I'm speaking on bigger terms here, but it's appalling to me to see industries moving in such an unhealthy direction.


In terms of the health industry, why hospitals demand interns and doctors stand on their feet or stay awake for 48 hours straight is just beyond me. This requirement that the health industry has carved out for itself is just stupid and shows that people who don't know what they're doing have been the ones shaping that industry. .

It is not hospitals that demand it , it is the patients. All of the issues talked about in this thread boil down to our society itself, and the demand for the best. Hospitals have to stay profitable, (or at least break even in the case of the non profit/state-owned hospitals). All of these demands are brought about by the general public wanting more for less. People complain about their health insurance costing so much, yet when they get a freaking headache, they demand a two thousand dollars worth of tests. Doctors give in because they don't want to get sued. Insurance companies aren't these huge money makers either, they have trouble staying afloat too.

The software industry has it's own problems too. And it is driven by their customers. They need to produce the latest greatest game out there for the cheapest amount in order to stay afloat. With competition, they have to put out a product that beats the competition. Yet look at what we have. Compare the games we have to what when I grew up. Pong !!! Yet, go to Africa where they don't have running water or electricity.

We should feel blessed to have these "problems". We are lucky to live in a society where if we don't like it we can easily do something else. Now granted , CEO's and the like make too much money and the peons do the work, but without that incentive to climb the ladder we wouldn't have had the breakthroughs our society has had.

Again, I feel blessed everyday. As a physician I have put in my fair share of 100 hour weeks, and no I don't even make six figures, but I do it because I love it. If I didn't , I would move on.

[Phoenix]

It is not hospitals that demand it , it is the patients. All of the issues talked about in this thread boil down to our society itself, and the demand for the best. Hospitals have to stay profitable, (or at least break even in the case of the non profit/state-owned hospitals). All of these demands are brought about by the general public wanting more for less. People complain about their health insurance costing so much, yet when they get a freaking headache, they demand a two thousand dollars worth of tests. Doctors give in because they don't want to get sued. Insurance companies aren't these huge money makers either, they have trouble staying afloat too.

The software industry has it's own problems too. And it is driven by their customers. They need to produce the latest greatest game out there for the cheapest amount in order to stay afloat. With competition, they have to put out a product that beats the competition. Yet look at what we have. Compare the games we have to what when I grew up. Pong !!! Yet, go to Africa where they don't have running water or electricity.

We should feel blessed to have these "problems". We are lucky to live in a society where if we don't like it we can easily do something else. Now granted , CEO's and the like make too much money and the peons do the work, but without that incentive to climb the ladder we wouldn't have had the breakthroughs our society has had.

Again, I feel blessed everyday. As a physician I have put in my fair share of 100 hour weeks, and no I don't even make six figures, but I do it because I love it. If I didn't , I would move on.

Like I was saying, much of it is motivated by greed, not just the simple desire to succeed. I would never suggest that the issues mankind faces are easily solved, but it doesn't keep me from recognizing the trouble we manage to get ourselves into more and more as time goes on, and the need for individuals to begin to make changes.

Anyone can feel appreciative of what we have in this country. We're certainly spoiled here. The desire to succeed, to evolve, to improve, will naturally remain with us as long as we're alive - afterall, it's a part of us, so there's no fear of losing that. But there is no need for humanity to kill itself trying to attain it. As with anything, there is a threshold separating reason from insanity, and our work habits are no exception. So where is this threshold in the working world? A healthy desire to succeed is always balanced with the natural desire for self-sustainment. But this turns into greed when a person's desire for success begins to outweigh the desire for self-sustainment because health, relationships, and life in general are no longer considered equally important or valuable as attaining what ever it is that we're striving for. When I hear about people dying because they were required to work longer than they should have, changes absolutely must be made. That is insanity. And where does it stop? As I said before, people are not only learning to accept these lifestyles, they're learning to defend them and rationalize them, and so many people don't truly realize how unhealthy it is on every level, or what they're losing because of it.

The problems we face aren't rooted merely in patients or consumers and their demands. It's much more complex than that. They're ultimately rooted in the greedy and selfish, and often times, ego-centric mentalities and behaviors found in people all along the chain. And this is only compounded by the fact that ultimately, we're all patients and consumers. And so there is a clear need for change. People do not need to work days on end with no sleep. There is another way. And I think it's safe to say that we better find it because there's no good that can come of us if we don't. Over-caffeinated, over drugged, over-worked, and burned out. That's who we are now. People are dying for the sake of what everyone wants. How bad does it have to get? Humanity is placing more value in their wants than in quality of life, or human life itself. People may set their own standards for how they work, and everyone has to determine what they're willing to do, but at some point, not everything can be considered relative, or subjective. At some point, there is a right and a wrong. A good and a bad.

People are willing to put up with much, sometimes because they're simply willing to, for whatever reason, but often times because they have to (at least for a time) from getting themselves into more than they bargained for. And it's not easy to get out of that cycle once you get yourself into it, when you're a cog in the wheel, but it is possible. My words aren't meant to deemphasize what mankind has managed to accomplish, but the trouble with society is that we've put too much priority on greed and self-entitlement which largely drive the branch attitudes and behaviors that you speak of.

On the flip side, I have been seeing people walking away from insane hours, more money, more recognition, and failed attempts in defining themselves, trying to be someone they're not, trying to meet someone else's expectations, or trying to fill in life's voids by burying themselves in their work, in exchange for more time with family and personal interests, less materialism, more peace and quiet, more balance, greater health, and most often times, a greater sense of personal fulfillment. I applaud people who do this.

Our lives are filled with challenges and responsibilities, but it doesn't mean we can't make changes along the way. It's a blessing for a person to love what they do, but there's more to life than just career. How does the saying go? "Life happens while you're making plans."

[lapchinj]

Try telling another company that the reason you left was the long hours. How do you think they will respond. Few will admit to being sensitive, most will wonder if you are the slacker.

It's a very tough, incestual industry. One false move and. . . .
Very, very true in any industry. No employer likes to hear crying at a job interview with a prospective employee. He's not interested in your hardships at the moment anyway. They would rather know what you can do for them if he hires you. Crying should be done in a bar or at home or maybe even a court.

Jeff-

[Jacob]

Very, very true in any industry. No employer likes to hear crying at a job interview with a prospective employee. He's not interested in your hardships at the moment anyway. They would rather know what you can do for them if he hires you. Crying should be done in a bar or at home or maybe even a court.

Jeff-

How is that crying? I think it's perfectly legitimate to want to have a life outside work. It's certainly a valid reason to quit, and not "crying".

The problem is the interviewer would see this as possibly saying that someone would never work overtime.

I personally won't work overtime every single day - however when things get real busy, I don't have a problem doing so.

[lapchinj]

It's interesting to note how people percieve different careers - it seems everyone thinks that grass is greener on the other side... ;-)
With respect to working long hours - one person's hardship might be another person's high. When I'm involved in my private consulting work and put in obscene long hours because I push myself to the limit this is for my own benefit and the benifit of building my own business or reputation. If on the other hand I am pushed to the limit to build someone else's business (or reputation) I resent it. I get nothing out of it except the long hours with no compensation. If I'm lucky the joy I get out of my specialty will offset the hardships.

I watched my cousin work like a dog to become a oncologist and his hours are not what I call great. So while Dr. Grabow is correct in his excellent summary of a doctor's hardships I would like to point out that even if a doctor works for a hospital as an employee he is still more like a consultant building his own business and reputation wheras the programmer is not. I can put up with a lot more grief and push myself a lot harder when it comes to my own business and in the end I might not even call it a hardhip but rather a high.

Jeff

[lapchinj]

How is that crying? I think it's perfectly legitimate to want to have a life outside work.
I didn't mean that objecting to working long hours is crying. I wanted to bring out that when a person goes on an interview and objects to the long hours he has to keep in his present job it might be considered crying. It's usually not recommended to complain about your current or previous jobs at an interview. I never ment to give the impression that crazy hours should be tolerated or an employee should not enjoy a family life.

I also put in average of 50 hours a week at my job but paid only for 40. There are times when I put in longer hours like you say in a crunch. But I like my job, the work is great and I have a family life also so I wouldn't call it a hardship - somebody else might though. But if I went to an interview I would only mention the long hours in a positive way. Saying anything about the long hours in a negative way might sound like "crying" to the interviewer. That's all I was trying to say - Sorry if I didn't explain myself well.

Jeff-

[lapchinj]

Couldn't have said it better Phoenix and Dr. Grabow...one of our resident physicians recently died in an auto accident. She was post call (having worked > 24 hrs straight)...
Yeah those were 2 great posts. And this tragedy is the most unfortunate result of working long hours. But anyone that is looking to a career in medicine knows all too well up front and agrees to the fact that there are years of long hard work ahead during school and even after becoming a doctor. This is a choice the person made up front and is willing to put up with the hardships in order to become a doctor. Maybe changes are in order but there doesn't seem to be a shortage of people wanting to become doctors knowing full well what the hardships are.

But I was thinking more about hardships that a person did not know about before taking a job and would not have been agreeable to if he/she had known beforehand.

Jeff-

[Fishie]

Over here in Belgium the legal workweek is 38 houres maximum and 36 houres minimum.
Most places have a 40 houre week so they changfe those extra houres to extra paid vacation.
Everything over 40houres is either double pay or pay and exuel vacation time(paid of course).

We dont work an average of 72houres like people in Japan do yet we are more productive then the Japanese average.

Belgium per employee is one of the most profiteable countries in the world and the only reason the US just edges past us is becouse they work a lot more houres it seems.

We have 24 days minimum(5 day workweeks) of paid vacation time each year and we still manage to be competitive.



There are lots of things wrong with the system inside the US and working longer for less money is not a solution and no way to live.

[ctmagnus]

There are lots of things wrong with the system inside the US and working longer for less money is not a solution and no way to live.

Unfortunately, US is not the only country like that. It seems to me that more and more countries/regions are developing the rush-rush/worship-at-the-altar-of-the-almighty-dollar mentality on almost a daily basis.