PalmOne To Release PalmOS 6 devices in 2006. Maybe. Or Maybe Not.

[Ed Hansberry]

<a href="http://www.brighthand.com/article/No_Palm_OS_Cobalt_Devices_Until_2006">http://www.brighthand.com/article/No_Palm_OS_Cobalt_Devices_Until_2006</a><br /><br />"<i>Ed Colligan was speaking to analysts in London when he said this, and a reporter from NewsWireless was there. Mr. Colligan wasn't saying that there definitely won't be any palmOne handhelds or smartphones running Cobalt coming next year; instead, the company refuses to commit to doing so by any particular date. "Nobody knows when we'll start the shift to Cobalt, OS 6, or on which devices," Mr. Colligan said. "For now, we're saying that we've built the functionality we need into the Treo and the Tungsten T5 and there's no need to confuse developers by switching. <b>I'm not even prepared to commit us to a change next year, or the year after, at this stage."</b></i> (emphasis added)<br /><br />Cobalt was finished up a few months ago and is the code name for PalmOS 6. PalmOS 5, currently shipping on just about every Palm OS device, was meant to be a transition OS, moving from the original Kadak based kernel to a 32bit OS with full multitasking, just like Windows Mobile and your desktop. With PalmOS 5, most apps run in PACE (Palm Application Compatibility Environment) which emulates the 68k processor. PalmOS devices now run with the ARM processor.<br /><br />Cobalt will allow more robust background processing and multitasking. Currently, when you push an app to the background with OS5, a background thread stays alive, allowing email to download for example, but the UI completely shuts down so when you switch back to that app, you aren't necessarily back where you left off. Apps will be able to be written in native ARM code, bypassing the need for the emulation environment. Oddly enough, OS5 simply doesn't allow full blown apps to be written to take advantage of the ARM processor. <br /><br />So, as usual, PalmOne is saying they have the functionality <i>you</i> need. "For now, we're saying that we've built the functionality we need into the Treo and the Tungsten T5..." You won't need the more advanced stuff until OS 6 devices ship. :roll: And what is with that bit about "confusing developers?" Any Palm developers reading this? Which is more confusing, OS 6 or Ed Colligan's statement? Meanwhile, PalmSource has released <a href="http://www.engadget.com/entry/2464837625182461/">OS 6.1 already and you can run it on your desktop</a> - which may be the only place you <i>can</i> run Cobalt in the near future. ;-) On a related note, anyone know when PalmOS will have a true native file system?

[surur]

Im not a Palmista, but I suspect he is actually talking to consumers, telling them "Dont wait for OS6 devices to come along. Buy now, because you may wait a very long time". They have had inventory problems due to people anticipating devices in the past.

The danger is though that Palm loyalists will decide their platform has become stagnant, and decide to switch to pocketpc, which at least seem to have incremental upgrades every year.

On the palm boards there seem to be a feeling hanging over palm, a "stench of death", even though they still have a 50% market share. It is looking like another Netscape vs IE.

Surur

[WolfUK]

It's reading things like this that make me glad I switched to Windows Mobile a few weeks back. PalmOne, for whatever reason, seem to have little desire to produce either a high-end device or a device using OS6 (which still suffers from their odd file system). This kind of stagnation might suit the less adventurous or demanding users but I am now starting to think that there is little for power-user to hang around for. I also find it worrying that there are so many problems with the new T5 with regard to third-party software (http://fitaly.com/board/palmfitaly/posts/4725.html).

[kennyg]

On a related note, anyone know when PalmOS will have a true native file system?

when palmOne thinks we are ready for it ;)

[Ed Hansberry]

http://fitaly.com/board/palmfitaly/posts/4725.html
Hahahahahahahahahaaaa :rotfl:

That developer does look confused! I would be too if I was having those problems. Holy cow. 8O That PalmSource introduced a product that is so bad with such a popular app is nothing short of astonishing.

[huangzhinong]

Does the "a few month" include 11 months ? Cobalt was released 11 month and 10 days ago.

[Zack Mahdavi]

Cobalt was finished up a few months ago and is the code name for PalmOS 6.

A few months ago?? No, Palm OS 6 was released in January by PalmSource, and OS 6.1 was released a couple months ago. PalmSource is at version 6.1, yet nobody is using the OS! What's wrong with PalmOne? Man, I'm so glad I switched....

[Gerard]

Man oh man, I am SOOOOOO glad of all the time spent researching the Palm vs. PPC question back in the winter of 2000. My initial impulse was to get a Palm, as clients had said they were reliable and lon-lasting per battery charge. Seems those things Palm was best at are no longer very relevant, with battery times being roughly similar now, and reliability getting shakier the closer Palm versatility gets to what PPCs have done all along. I was like this close - || - to getting one back in April 2000... and would no doubt have continued down that path after the first device.

Luckily a local magazine store brought in the first issue of Pocket PC Magazine that month, about a week before I was ready to drop some cash, and Casio's blurb in that issue just blew me away. Palm is going the way of all once-great technologies.

When I tried a friend's Palm for map navigation in California back in 1995 or so, I was duly impressed. Brilliant, simple, with only the Graffiti nonsense alphabet making me annoyed. Now they've finally relented and put in a natural letter recognition input method... I guess partly for legal reasons owing to that patent thing, but no doubt also because 'the user didn't need it before, but the user needs it now'? How clever. It's been noted again and again in the PPC community that Palm's PR is thin, that they spend a lot of energy (and vitriol against Microsoft) justifying their shortcomings as being tied to user needs. It's weak, and they should just admit it.

But of course they cannot, as that would just mean a faster death. So what we'll see instead is a sloooooow fading away, with little blurbs now and then about hotfixes or flashy new hardware. Meanwhile, the high-end Pocket PCs continue to take large leaps towards full desktop functionality and power. Bye Palm. Been nice not knowing you.

[Lucky Bob]

Cobalt was finished up a few months ago and is the code name for PalmOS 6.

A few months ago?? No, Palm OS 6 was released in January by PalmSource, and OS 6.1 was released a couple months ago. PalmSource is at version 6.1, yet nobody is using the OS! What's wrong with PalmOne? Man, I'm so glad I switched....
Actually, Palm OS 6 was given to developers at the end of December, 2003. But who cares, it was still a while ago anyways.

And I love the part about confusing developers by switching. Gee, I thought the whole point of creating OS 5 was to ease the transition between OS 4 and OS 6, and to not "confuse developers." Developers have had access to OS 6 for almost a year now. Also, if the apps designed by developers are written properly, most should run fine under OS 6.

You know, if the T5 had been released with OS 6, you might not have heard as much bickering and disguist about it. Oh well, leave it to palmOne...

[Janak Parekh]

You know, if the T5 had been released with OS 6, you might not have heard as much bickering and disguist about it. Oh well, leave it to palmOne...
Indeed - it would have been "Hmmm... maybe I need to look at Palms again". I've maintained for some time that if they fix multitasking, categories, and a few other nits, they would be worthy competitors for my dollars.

--janak

[Ed Hansberry]

Cobalt was finished up a few months ago and is the code name for PalmOS 6.

A few months ago?? No, Palm OS 6 was released in January by PalmSource, and OS 6.1 was released a couple months ago. PalmSource is at version 6.1, yet nobody is using the OS! What's wrong with PalmOne? Man, I'm so glad I switched....
I don't know why I had it in my brain that 6.0 was recent. I guess the OS came out and then nothing happened, ever, until all the hoopla when 6.1 was RTM. That just makes it all the more ridiculious that the T5 shipped with 5.x. :roll:

[JvanEkris]

I don't know why I had it in my brain that 6.0 was recent. I guess the OS came out and then nothing happened, ever, until all the hoopla when 6.1 was RTM. That just makes it all the more ridiculious that the T5 shipped with 5.x. :roll:According some people i spoke to at PalmOne, they already started design on the T5 before OS 6.0 became final. Looks to me that PalmSource and PalmOne act too muck like independent companies instead of partners and that design decissions at PalmOne (that IMHO could easily have been changed) are carved in stone.

This, while Microsoft really cooporates closely with its OEM's in order to keep them informed and allow them to launch devices within weeks of the release of the OS....

Jaap

[bjornkeizers]

Oy gevalt...

What the hell is Palm thinking??? 2006??? Un-freaking-believable.

Even if OS6 delivers all that it promises, it's about five years too late! - and with boring hardware like the T5, I won't be buying a new Palm any time soon.

[Stik]

I suspect he is actually talking to consumers, telling them "Dont wait for OS6 devices to come along. Buy now, because you may wait a very long time". They have had inventory problems due to people anticipating devices in the past Surur

:werenotworthy:


The danger is though that Palm loyalists will decide their platform has become stagnant, and decide to switch to pocketpc, which at least seem to have incremental upgrades every year. Surur

The numbers seem to bear you out. Ed Hardy at Brighthand revealed the Gartner Worldwide Handheld Sales a short bit ago. :deal:

"palmOne's shipments fell by 13.3 percent, while HP's were up 19.6 percent.

This led to a situation that has never happened before: there were more Pocket PCs shipped last quarter than Palm OS devices. "


" Shipments of Palm OS handhelds are on track to decline about 23 percent this year, to about 4.4 million units.

At the same time, a rise in shipments of Pocket PC models is going on. Shipments of Pocket PCs this year are expected to increase about 15 percent over 2003, to about 5 million units. "

" Although Dell has a relatively small share of the world handheld market, just 6.5 percent, its sales are up 37.4 percent over the same quarter a year ago. Plus, it has a larger percent of the U.S. handheld market, 9.1 percent. "

http://www.brighthand.com/article/Gartner_Results_Q304

[aliensub]

On a related note, anyone know when PalmOS will have a true native file system?

When I used to have a Palm I missed the filesystem so badly. The funny thing is that Microsoft is moving in the Palm direction with their WinFS filesystem which is built on top of MSSQL.
Maybe Palm is lightyears ahead and we just haven´t noticed :lol:

[Janak Parekh]

The funny thing is that Microsoft is moving in the Palm direction with their WinFS filesystem
Not quite. SQL is a lot more sophisticated than the PDB format. In addition, I suspect WinFS will have the standard directory abstraction for some time until our computing methodologies can transition to a non-directory structure. In the meantime, it's a glaring weakness of Palm devices IMHO.

--janak

[corrosive]

The funny thing is that Microsoft is moving in the Palm direction with their WinFS filesystem
Not quite. SQL is a lot more sophisticated than the PDB format. In addition, I suspect WinFS will have the standard directory abstraction for some time until our computing methodologies can transition to a non-directory structure. In the meantime, it's a glaring weakness of Palm devices IMHO.

--janak

As far as WinFS goes, they've being promising this filesystem in one form or other since Cairo (mid 90s), and now it's yanked from Longhorn...

The delay on OS6 from Palm is weird though and I agree with JvanEkris - the two Palm companies or obviously nto working closely together enough (mind you if they work too closely they'll probably get in trouble with the remaining Palm licensees). It's also a pity, I was looking forwards to seeing a device with OS6 in the near future, competition is always good, but apart from the T3 I've not really wanted any of the recent Palm devices.

[Fishie]

I don't know why I had it in my brain that 6.0 was recent. I guess the OS came out and then nothing happened, ever, until all the hoopla when 6.1 was RTM. That just makes it all the more ridiculious that the T5 shipped with 5.x. :roll:According some people i spoke to at PalmOne, they already started design on the T5 before OS 6.0 became final. Looks to me that PalmSource and PalmOne act too muck like independent companies instead of partners and that design decissions at PalmOne (that IMHO could easily have been changed) are carved in stone.

This, while Microsoft really cooporates closely with its OEM's in order to keep them informed and allow them to launch devices within weeks of the release of the OS....

Jaap

Thats a big lie to try in vain to counter the bad feedback the T5 is getting from even the staunchest Palm loyalists.
Palm before the split into PalmSource and PalmOne was one company where the people were already working on OS6, they had intimate knoledge about the OS and when it would release etcetera and as mentioned before OS6 was released to the development comunity in december 2K3.
For PalmOne to use that excuse now is an outright insult and borders on desperation.

[bjornkeizers]

Thats a big lie to try in vain to counter the bad feedback the T5 is getting from even the staunchest Palm loyalists.


I'm a long time Palm user - I've owned a dozen of them - but even I'm losing faith in the company, as do many other palm users. The T5 simply sucks. It's bad hardware.

- It looks cheap
- It's made of plastic
- It doesn't have WiFi
- It doesn't have OS6

etc. etc.

Yes, it has a larger screen and a lot of memory, but the lack of WiFi and OS6 means it's a step *backwards* for some users. Or at least, not a step forwards that'd make them willing to spend that kind of cash on that hardware. My Clie TH55 has BT, WiFi, camera, etc. for less then what the T5 costs.

So, palm is releasing ****ty hardware with an old OS - and with the loss of sony, nobody is making decent products. It's no wonder most Palm users are considering a switch for their next device....

I love my Clie, but next time I'm buying a PDA, it'll definitely be a Pocket PC.

[Fishie]

Exactly, things or looking mighty bleak for Palm right now.

[sub_tex]

I'm upset that PalmOne is the biggest POS licensee now. They haven't made exciting handhelds in years. As was mentioned before, the Clies offer more bang for the buck, and they're older models.

But I really P1 can get their act together soon. The last thing I want is 1 PDA OS to choose from. Maybe if Symbian can step up to the plate soon. . .

Personally, I've always preferred Palm, but that's because I require less from my PDA than most of you. That and I really find the PPC UI to be horrible.

It's like windows. And for some people that's great, but those gray scrollbars and ugly text fields drive me nuuts. At least on POS I can get a change from the windows world for a bit.

So, hey, why doesn't MS hire some great designers to overhaul the widgets? :D

Palm's OS 6 looks pretty. Too bad it exists only on the desktop as a sim right now. I was very intrigued by the new UI elements. Looked nice. Like Mac OS X does.

[Gerard]

Snoopsoft's ColourMe (http://www.snoopsoft.com/other/colourme.html) has been available for more than 4 years, for $5. With that you can choose ANY colour scheme you like on any Pocket PC... but remember to first save the default scheme under a unique name, and back that up along with a device backup. Mistakes made in colour choices can result in a pretty much unusable device after a sort reset. White text on white backgrounds could be bad. Black on black, worse. So there's one tool for getting rid of ugly Microsoft colours. Even one of the listed pre-fabricated schemes, the old MS 'Maple' is pretty nice, tweaked a little to get rid of the greys. I like that one on my notebook. Dark but warm.

There are other tools for modifying the GUI. I use Dashboard and GigaBar, enabling both improved looks and a massive increase in utility per pixel when navigating around the device. Dashboard's still $13, and GigaBar's still free. Taskbar and Today replacements abound, and some tools even modify the whole device interface. So that seems not really a valid complaint, the appearance being ugly.

(on a somewhat bent aside; POS and PieceO'S#¡t - coincidence? sorry, couldn't resist. let the tomato hurling commence...)

[twalk]

Ed, I do some dev work on Palms. Here's my take on this, and a few other things...

There is every indication now that the T5 was really meant to be a PalmOS6 device. (Info from pre-production units. There's also indications that calling it the T5 was also a last minute change.) Everything is pointing to PalmOS 6.0 not being up to snuff, so P1 had to do a last minute change to 5.4. (6.1 does look good enough, but that just came out. A change to 5.4 would also likely kill having internal wifi, since 5.x is hell to write drivers for.)

PalmSource has been stating that 11 6.x devices are expected in '05. They don't say who is releasing what, but it's known that Samsung is one of them.

Now the rant: about 6mo ago P1 was reversing marketshare losses, and seemed to be on the comeback track. Since that time, they've let the low-end stagnate, released the T5, are late with the Treo650, don't understand that they must have a low-end smartphone, and pretty much stopped being responsive to people.

Compounding those problems, they've also stuck like glue to 2 really stupid corporate decisions.

The first is "keeping their options open as regards to OS's". Even if they are, they definitely shouldn't say it. All that it does is cause PPC buyers to go "Palm is dead", and go on buying PPCs from HP & Dell, and Palm buyers to go "Palm is dead" and start looking for alternatives. It gains the company nothing, while definitely hurting sales.

The second is not releasing any info about future products until they are actually released. This is meant to protect current product sales from people waiting for better future products. However this is now backfiring by causing customers to jump ship because of rumors like in this article.

Being blunt, this is a massive failure of management. PalmOS still has a lot of strength in the market, but has a good chance of not surviving these latest stupidities.

[sub_tex]

Snoopsoft's ColourMe (http://www.snoopsoft.com/other/colourme.html) has been available for more than 4 years, for $5. With that you can choose ANY colour scheme you like on any Pocket PC...

The colors aren't what I dislike, it's the whole widget set.

Taskbar and Today replacements abound, and some tools even modify the whole device interface. So that seems not really a valid complaint, the appearance being ugly.

I think it is. None of those programs change the UI to the degree I'm talking about. And besides, if there were an app out there that did do it, I would be very wary of using it, similar to how I won't touch WindowBlinds to make win2000 look nicer. Too many areas for bugs.

It really isn't about skinning a Today screen, or adding functionality to a taskbar. PPC does thay in spades with 3rd party apps.

I just don't like the look of the UI widgets period. It's not a flaw with the OS. In fact, it's a big plus for many people to see familiar interfaces. I'm just saying, for me, it's ugly. Symbian (both Quartz and Crystal) look more attractive as an alternative.

Right now, since there's nothing I need to do that my Treo can't, there's no reason to have to switch to a PPC. Like with Windows. I think Mac OS X looks much better than any MS UI, but the Mac platform on a whole doesn't offer me all I want like windows does.

But whatever. This is off topic anyhow, sorry. :oops:

[Fishie]

…Excessive overquoting removed.

Thanks for the insights, its really apreciated.

[Ed Hansberry]

Thanks for the comments and developer's perspective TWalk. I've seen similar comments on the difficulties with WiFi and Palm OS 4/5 from other developers and SD card makers as well as a general consensus from even many serious Palm fans at Brighthand and Palm Info Center that if PalmOne could do something wrong, they seem to be real keen on doing it right now. I agree - the PR missteps are the worst.

[twalk]

Thanks for the comments and developer's perspective TWalk.

Thanks Ed. However, just so I don't sound too negative about only P1, I feel that all the other major players also have serious problems.

P1 looks actively destructive. HP & Dell are really just throwing products out there and expecting the customer will find a use. They really don't have a clue about marketing PDA devices. MS WM (PPC) looks like something that MS would rather have slowly fade away. MS Smartphone doesn't look like it's getting much traction, and MS doesn't really seem to know much about marketing this except to say "it's a smartphone". Nokia (Symbian) is pretty much in the same boat, not really having a clue about why people buy smartphones, what they use them for, how to target customers, etc. (They know cell phones, but not smartphones.)

PS really does get it, but 6.1 is late, and they can't force anyone to use it. RIM also gets it, but soon every cell phone is going to have easy email, eliminating their big advantage.

As a developer in this area, it pains me to say this, but I find it likely that all the above will likely fade away during the next 5 years. Low end cell phones running java are selling by the truckload, which despite their problems can easily swamp in numbers all the above put together. There are a number of businesses right now that have replaced PDAs and even laptops with these. The high end will be taken out by sub $1000 XP palmtop machines starting late next year. (Heck, I've already ditched my high-end PDAs for a fujitsu P1120, and am much happier for it.) I just don't think that there is enough space between these two for any of the above to have a good chance to survive. This is leading me towards looking seriously at java based cell phones for future projects.

[JvanEkris]

HP & Dell are really just throwing products out there and expecting the customer will find a use. They really don't have a clue about marketing PDA devices.Although i must say i would appriciate some more clarity on HP's side, they do have a proven track-record. HP has climbed from almost 2% to 37% marketshare in 5 years, that is impressive to say the least, especially with Dell and other players entering the market. I agree with you that a more usage oriented approach would be welcome from all players. Now we as a user have to find out for ourselves, and manufacturers are not especially clear on what target-group is intended for a certain machine. Although i must say in Europe HP is clearer on this than in the States. In Europe we see a Hx3700 being marketed as a multimedia device and a hx4700 (that is a hx4705 without the camera) being marketed as a device for the business.

MS Smartphone doesn't look like it's getting much traction, and MS doesn't really seem to know much about marketing this except to say "it's a smartphone". Nokia (Symbian) is pretty much in the same boat, not really having a clue about why people buy smartphones, what they use them for, how to target customers, etc. (They know cell phones, but not smartphones.)I must say that Symbian has put forward a good series of phones to react to Microsoft. When i look at the P900 and P910i of SonyEricsson (also Symbian) the marketshare is tremendous, and a lot of businessmen are using them. SonyEricsson does a really good job (especially in combination with Vodaphone and T-Mobile) in marketing this product for the right buyers. Downside is that most users buy a very flexible phone and do not even realize that it is running Symbian: therefor they not really commited to the OS.

Jaap

[Ed Hansberry]

RIM also gets it, but soon every cell phone is going to have easy email, eliminating their big advantage.
LOL! It will have to be easy. My Nokia 3650 has email and darnded if I can figure out how to enable it on the device. I just use the MMS service that allows me to send and receive emails, but it isn't a POP3 account. The dialog boxes for that are bewildering. :confused totally:

I agree the landscape will change dramatically over the next 5 years, but I am not convinced Java will be it, nor that it will even be a major player.

[twalk]

I agree the landscape will change dramatically over the next 5 years, but I am not convinced Java will be it, nor that it will even be a major player.

Ed, I hope you're right, but these java based phones are really cheap and really plentiful. It wouldn't surprise me in the least to see programmers working 10X harder on a java phone program than a smartphone (P1/MS/Symbian/RIM) program would take, just to tap into the much larger base. (The only reason I haven't, is all my programs so far have needed a touch screen.) That's the kind of thing that pushes an inferior technology into the winner's circle.