Zaurus SL-C300: First PDA With Hard Disk

[Jonathon Watkins]

Sharp has just announced their new Zaurus SL-C3000 PDA. (Hmmm, catchy name. ;-)) It should ship in the Japanese market on the 10th of November and will be the first PDA with a hard drive. The Register has the details:<br /><br /><i>"The new model is based on a 416MHz Intel XScale PXA270 processor backed by 64MB of SDRAM and 16MB of Flash ROM. Crucially, the unit also features a 4GB hard drive - the first PDA to do so. The Sl-C3000 sports a 3.7in 640 x 480 LCD mounted above a QWERTY keypad with a five-way navigator control. There's written text input too, with Kanji and Western character recognition. Unlike Sony's PDAs, there's no wireless on the Sharp model, only infra-red. There's an SD and a CompactFlash card slot for expansion, so there's scope to add Bluetooth or Wi-Fi later on. There's also the usual USB port for connecting the device to a PC, and an earphones socket."</i><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/2003/zaurus.jpg" /> <br /><br />As you can see, the SL-C3000 has a flip-round display similar to some of the Clié models. The weight is just under 200 grams, which does seem on the high side You can find more photos of the unit at <a href="http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2004/1015/sharp.htm">PC Watch Japan</a>. We've discussed the pros and cons of having hard drives in PDA a fair few times, but now someone has actually gone and produced one, so we should be able to find out how well it works in practice. Personally I still hope to own a Pocket PC with a large hard drive at some point. What about you guys?

[Mark Johnson]

It's just nice to see an OEM trying to think outside the box a bit. I'm not really sure that an internal hard drive would be all that much better than a CF slot that the end-user slaps a 5GB Seagate CF MicroDrive into. But hey, at least it's different from what's currently on the market.

[Craig Horlacher]

Cool! It looks just like my old HP OmniGo 120! I loved that PDA. Back when "Palm Pilot" where the hot item I found the omnigo and was very happy with it.

This looks just like it but with a color screen and probably half the size and weight.

Go Sharp! I loved that OmniGo design!

[Mark Johnson]

Cool! It looks just like my old HP OmniGo 120!

Whoa! OmniGo, that takes me back! I never noticed the similarity until you pointed that out.

Of course, the other difference would be that the screen actually uses the whole lid. The "square screen" was one of the things I remember about my OmniGo. Thanks for the walk down Memory Lane. :lol:

[Ripper014]

I like the OmniGo I had... except that I hated the chicklet style keyboard.. and the fact that it was not very reliable... it crashed on me so much that in the end... I had to give it back. And get a Casio E-10...

This unit looks promising... and is moving in a direction... we just need to get rid of the chicklet keyboard and increase the screen size to fill out the bezel... and things are looking good.

[Steven Cedrone]

Is it a microdrive? If so, it would be nice if they used the space for solid state instead. Who will be the first to open one up and check (and replace that microdrive with a 4GB CF card :wink: )?

Steve

[TMann]

Question for the experts out there: Are these mini-hard drives sufficiently durable to be used in a device that is going to be jostled around and potentially dropped? I haven't kept up on this issue in a while, but I remember when the first IBM Micro-drives came out, I heard stories of people that had ruined their HD's by dropping them.

Is this still a problem?

TMann

[ricksfiona]

It's just nice to see an OEM trying to think outside the box a bit. I'm not really sure that an internal hard drive would be all that much better than a CF slot that the end-user slaps a 5GB Seagate CF MicroDrive into. But hey, at least it's different from what's currently on the market.
I agree. Better to have a CF slot and have a hard drive you can upgrade readily. I love the design though!

[CTSLICK]

The 4Gb disk doesn't move me that much, like others I am concerned about durability. However, I'd pay for that form factor running Window Mobile. Too bad there aren't any PPC OEM's brave enough to take a shot at this.

[rpommier]

Yeah that model is slick... I would love to see Windows Mobile able to be ported over on other devices. It would've been sweet to have a Windows Mobile device on a Tungsten T3, or one of the Clie's.

Pocket PC's have been the same boring form factor since their inception. I really admired the Clie TH55 and UX-50, I just had too much invested in Pocket PC software to justify the switch.

[lapchinj]

I looked at the pictures on PC Watch Japan and the Sharp is really nice. It would have been nicer to see it next to an iPAQ for instance so we could get a better feel for the size. My Japanese is not so good so the captions didn't tell me much :?.

Anyway this might be a silly question to ask since maybe I should know this already but... If the Sharp is being sold in Japan how come it has an english keyboard. Yeah I saw the few Japanese characters on some keys but with a english keyboard then how do you enter Japanese charaters?

Jeff-

[Tom W.M.]

Very cool. I would drool, but the keyboard makes my fingers hurt just looking at it. :?

Sharp should to a more H/PC style device--with an almost-full-size keyboard and larger screen. Of course, then it would almost be a small Linux laptop, wouldn't it?

[twntaipan]

If the device has USB host capabilities and can be connected to a monitor, mouse, nic and keyboard, I would love it.

[DuaneAA]

Question for the experts out there: Are these mini-hard drives sufficiently durable to be used in a device that is going to be jostled around and potentially dropped? I haven't kept up on this issue in a while, but I remember when the first IBM Micro-drives came out, I heard stories of people that had ruined their HD's by dropping them.

Is this still a problem?

TMann

I have a Canon digital camera with one of the original 340 Meg Micro-drives. I have had it about four years. About two months after I got the camera, I dropped it onto concrete while getting out of my SUV. It fell about four feet and hit on the corner right next to LCD display. I was sure it was wrecked, but when I turned the camera on everything worked fine. Four years later, the corner of the aluminum case is still badly deformed, but the camera has worked perfectly the whole time.

So the microdrive can survive at least one hard drop. The most painful part is knowing I spent $500 for the 340 meg microdrive and at the time that was a much cheaper way to get 340 meg than was possible with compactflash. How quickly prices and capacities change.

Duane

[tsapiano]

It's just nice to see an OEM trying to think outside the box a bit. I'm not really sure that an internal hard drive would be all that much better than a CF slot that the end-user slaps a 5GB Seagate CF MicroDrive into. But hey, at least it's different from what's currently on the market.

I'd tend to agree - this isn't such a huge deal as it's basically little more than an internal CompactFlash card that can't be removed. Although the upside is that it seems to have another CF slot, so being able to plug another card in there could definately be a plus.

Now, if they put one of those Toshiba 1.8" 60GB HDDs then I'd be all over it ;) You're not going to get 60GB of mobile storage out of any conventional memory card format :P It definately gets me that no one has done this yet as the lack of mass-storage capacity on PDAs is holding back a lot of potential uses. A properly designed PocketPC with an onboard 60GB HDD could definately give the iPod a decent run for it's money.

As for durability, Microdrives definately get a bad rap and are really a lot more reliable than many people give them credit for. Their format was designed to be used in mobile devices (why else would you need a 1" HDD), so they have been well hardened for mobile use. For instance, Bill Biggart's final images of the WTC were shot using a 340MB Microdrive (two generations older than the 4GB MD) - if a MD can take a skyscraper falling on it then the daily grind likely won't be much of an issue. Yes, solid state drives are inherently less succeptable to impact damage however for most common uses you will have a hard time pushing MDs beyond their limits. If all else was the same I'd also prefer a solid-state drive as well, however a 4GB SS card is a lot more expensive than a 4GB Microdrive ;)

[nobody]

If only programs are in Microdrive, not in ROM.

[dh]

The Zaurus form factor is just great - I love my C860, best mobile device I've had by far.

However, no built in wireless means I'll be sticking with the current one for the time being at least.

[hopbot]

i think this is really neat! i wish that there were pocket pcs that tried something new...with the new HP line, i feel like we taken a small step backwards in PDA industrial design. now that Sony is out of the american market, i fear these companies will have even less insentive to try new and different designs.

[Darius Wey]

i think this is really neat! i wish that there were pocket pcs that tried something new...with the new HP line, i feel like we taken a small step backwards in PDA industrial design. now that Sony is out of the american market, i fear these companies will have even less insentive to try new and different designs.

Now wouldn't it be neat if you could walk into a computer store, pick out the components you want, pick out the casing you want, and build the PDA yourself? :wink:

[surur]

If only programs are in Microdrive, not in ROM.

I hope not. Why spin up the hard drive every time you want to launch a program?

All mobile HDD's spin down after a few seconds of inactivity. If it's not being used for OS, programs and swap files it should have no impact on battery.

I think HDD's should best be reserved for large files, such as music, video and maps, where the advantage of the capacious size would out-weight the battery life implications.

Surur

[Darius Wey]

The concepts of mobile HDDs make you wonder...

When does defragmentation on mobile devices move from fantasy to reality?

[ChuckyRose]

Anyway this might be a silly question to ask since maybe I should know this already but... If the Sharp is being sold in Japan how come it has an english keyboard. Yeah I saw the few Japanese characters on some keys but with a english keyboard then how do you enter Japanese charaters?

Jeff-

It uses a romanization system to enter the Japanese syllabary. (A few use a 'kana' keyboard where each key is one symbol, but very few do) Since all the base Japanese characters in the syllabary are organized in a regular pattern, (consonant + vowel, more or less) it's easy to enter it once you learn the romanization scheme.
a i u e o
ka ki ku ke ko
sa s(h)i su se so
etc.

ChuckyRose

[nobody]

I hope not. Why spin up the hard drive every time you want to launch a program?

You are right. But what about the prospect of replacing Microdrive with CF card? Then that will be the ultimate!

[Gremmie]

Is it really the first PDA with a built-in hard drive? There was the Toshiba E-550MD in Japan which had an internally wired Microdrive, much like MP3 players. Although I doubt this PDA uses a 'Microdrive' per se, I'm sure it's about the same form factor, platter size, etc.[/i]

[Wasp]

I installed an IBM 340 MB hard drive in an HP PDA years ago. I was stunned how fast the battery drained so replaced it with a CF card. Has the battery drain issue gotten any better for these newer hard drives? If not, then there is no way that I would want a non-removable hard drive in my PDA. 8)

[Darius Wey]

I installed an IBM 340 MB hard drive in an HP PDA years ago. I was stunned how fast the battery drained so replaced it with a CF card. Has the battery drain issue gotten any better for these newer hard drives? If not, then there is no way that I would want a non-removable hard drive in my PDA. 8)

:lol: Battery technologies and hard drive power usage have definitely changed since then my friend!

[Jonathon Watkins]

Is it really the first PDA with a built-in hard drive? There was the Toshiba E-550MD in Japan which had an internally wired Microdrive, much like MP3 players. [/i]

I believe that that E-550MD just came bundled with the Microdrive. It was not internal.

[Fishie]

Is it really the first PDA with a built-in hard drive? There was the Toshiba E-550MD in Japan which had an internally wired Microdrive, much like MP3 players. [/i]

I believe that that E-550MD just came bundled with the Microdrive. It was not internal.

Nope, theyve had integrated models for quite a while now

[Fishie]

Hmm actally the old E-550MD came with the Microdrivce

Its the E-550G MD that had an internal drive, the E-550G is a lot more recent then the stock 550.

The stock 550 has a 3.5 inch screen and a strongarm processor and was released in the US by both Toshiba as well as Audivox

The G model has a 400MHz XScale processor and a 4inch screen.

[Gremmie]

Finally found the link. I've posted about this a few times (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/printview.php?t=13977) and I know there is always debate about if it's bundled or integrated. I've used this (http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2001_07/e1601/doc02.htm) as my proof so far, but I still haven't heard back from people who own the E-550MD.

[Fishie]

Finally found the link. I've posted about this a few times (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/printview.php?t=13977) and I know there is always debate about if it's bundled or integrated. I've used this (http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2001_07/e1601/doc02.htm) as my proof so far, but I still haven't heard back from people who own the E-550MD.

This one doesnt, the e-550G has it built in.

[lapchinj]

It uses a romanization system to enter the Japanese syllabary.... etc.
ChuckyRose
Thanks for the enlightenment but while I don’t want to take this thread off track just one more question. It means that someone whose basic language is Japanese would have to know the English alphabet and keyboard in order to use a PDA. :?

Jeff-

[Fishie]

Nope Hiragana is enough

[Yorri]

now that we have vga screens on the pocketpcs, the only thing missing is larger disk space.

although now it seems that the oqo is being released.

Can't wait until this becomes a standard feature and shows everyone what mp3 players have been using for years without problems...HARD DRIVES!!!!

[Gremmie]

Finally found the link. I've posted about this a few times (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/printview.php?t=13977) and I know there is always debate about if it's bundled or integrated. I've used this (http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2001_07/e1601/doc02.htm) as my proof so far, but I still haven't heard back from people who own the E-550MD.

This one doesnt, the e-550G has it built in.

What? No, the E-550G was the one imported by CompUSA, the 550MD has the built-in Microdrive, just like the link says. I think the only difference between the E-550 and E-550G is the 4-inch LCD screen, but I'm not sure.

[AndrewLubinus89]

The concepts of mobile HDDs make you wonder...

When does defragmentation on mobile devices move from fantasy to reality?

Linux doesn't fragment to my knowledge.

[Jonathon Watkins]

Linux doesn't fragment to my knowledge.

Every file system fragments given enough time. Don't forget that NTFS was originally promised to reduce fragmentation. :wink:

[Fishie]

Finally found the link. I've posted about this a few times (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/printview.php?t=13977) and I know there is always debate about if it's bundled or integrated. I've used this (http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2001_07/e1601/doc02.htm) as my proof so far, but I still haven't heard back from people who own the E-550MD.

This one doesnt, the e-550G has it built in.

What? No, the E-550G was the one imported by CompUSA, the 550MD has the built-in Microdrive, just like the link says. I think the only difference between the E-550 and E-550G is the 4-inch LCD screen, but I'm not sure.

The e-550G MD, that one wasnt imported by Comp USA, the regular G model was.
Up until the release of the Genio e-830 these models were the most popular PPCs in Japan.

[Underwater Mike]

Even though it has a CF slot, are there Linux drivers available for common BT and WiFi cards? I thought that driver availability was the big hurdle for Sharp's Linux devices?

The Zaurus form factor is just great - I love my C860, best mobile device I've had by far.

However, no built in wireless means I'll be sticking with the current one for the time being at least.

[Gremmie]

The e-550G MD, that one wasnt imported by Comp USA, the regular G model was.
Up until the release of the Genio e-830 these models were the most popular PPCs in Japan.

I know that,

the E-550G was the one imported by CompUSA[...]
but the E-550MD had an internal Microdrive, thus that doesn't make this the first PDA with an internal hard drive.

[Jonathon Watkins]

but the E-550MD had an internal Microdrive, thus that doesn't make this the first PDA with an internal hard drive.

I understood that that one was removable, so it it did not count as an 'internal' hard drive.

[Fishie]

The e-550G MD, that one wasnt imported by Comp USA, the regular G model was.
Up until the release of the Genio e-830 these models were the most popular PPCs in Japan.

I know that,

the E-550G was the one imported by CompUSA[...]
but the E-550MD had an internal Microdrive, thus that doesn't make this the first PDA with an internal hard drive.

Graargh no it did nt.

The E-550MD came with an external minidisc for use in the compact flash slot, the E-550G MD came with the hard drive built into the unit and thus was the first PDA with incorporated hard drive.

[Gremmie]

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/TECH/ptech/07/17/toshiba.windows.pda.idg/


At the end of September, Toshiba is also set for the Japanese launch of the e550/MD, which will feature a built-in Microdrive from IBM that stores a whopping 1GB of data.

Regardless, this isn't the first PDA with a built-in hard drive.

[dh]

Even though it has a CF slot, are there Linux drivers available for common BT and WiFi cards? I thought that driver availability was the big hurdle for Sharp's Linux devices?

The Zaurus form factor is just great - I love my C860, best mobile device I've had by far.

However, no built in wireless means I'll be sticking with the current one for the time being at least.

The LinkSys card that I bought for my Dell Axim works fine with the Zaurus. Works with both the the original Sharp ROM (converted from Japanese) and the English Cacko one I use now.

I know that other people use BT cards without problems as well as CF GPS systems. Basically there is little the Zaurus can't do (usually for free), you just have to be prepared to work a bit to find the right solutions.

I had never touched a Linux computer of any kind before getting the 860. It is remarkably user friendly and has a nice user community.

[Fishie]

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/TECH/ptech/07/17/toshiba.windows.pda.idg/


At the end of September, Toshiba is also set for the Japanese launch of the e550/MD, which will feature a built-in Microdrive from IBM that stores a whopping 1GB of data.

Regardless, this isn't the first PDA with a built-in hard drive.
And like I said, it wasnt built in but rather included in the box the PDA came with the E-550G MD was the first to actually incorporate it INSIDE a device

[The PocketTV Team]

Question for the experts out there: Are these mini-hard drives sufficiently durable to be used in a device that is going to be jostled around and potentially dropped? I haven't kept up on this issue in a while, but I remember when the first IBM Micro-drives came out, I heard stories of people that had ruined their HD's by dropping them.

Is this still a problem?

TMann
I've used Microdrives since the first 340MB came out about 5 years ago, I think (now you can get brand new a 5GB Microdrive for about $230 on ebay)

I've never had problems with any of them (I have a 340MB, a 1GB and two 4GB).

I've dropped them, used them heavily in Pocket PC's, digital cameras and laptops, submitted to all sorts of abuse, and they still work flawlessly.

I'd say they are pretty robust.

[Janak Parekh]

When does defragmentation on mobile devices move from fantasy to reality?
Why do you think about this only with hard drives? It's also an issue with CF memory. ;) Right now, capacities are small enough that "reformat" is the preferred technique.

:lol: Battery technologies and hard drive power usage have definitely changed since then my friend!
Not that much. It all depends on data access patterns. If the hard drive remains spinning for an extended period of time, you'll see the battery go flat in no time. They key is to cache aggressively.

--janak

[cybertai]

Anyway this might be a silly question to ask since maybe I should know this already but... If the Sharp is being sold in Japan how come it has an english keyboard. Yeah I saw the few Japanese characters on some keys but with a english keyboard then how do you enter Japanese charaters?

Jeff-

Most Asian countries like Japan/Korea/Taiwan/China use "QWERTY" keyboards to enter their "characters" with the help of some "input" software.

Apart from that, most Asians also need to type in English. :lol: