USB Host: Important or Not?

[Jason Dunn]

I was reading through comments about the upcoming Dell Axim X50, and several people were commenting on how important USB host capability is. To be frank, I've never owned a Pocket PC with USB host capabilities, nor have I ever looked for that feature in a device. So I'm curious to know, using a survey, how important this feature is to you - is it a deal breaker? Also, for those that want USB host, tell me what you use it for? My understanding of it was that without driver support, the vast majority of devices couldn't be used...and I don't think there's much driver support out there for devices. So what USB devices do you use with your Pocket PC? What are the cool scenarios that would make me want this feature in a Pocket PC?

[foebea]

I would love to use a full size keyboard sometimes. (fitaly is great and all, but to win at #trivia you need a real keyboard)

[GoldKey]

As long as it supported the mass storage profile, I would be happy.

In essence, you could build a modular replacement for a laptop. Need a full size keyboard or mouse, you can have it. Need mass storage, you can have it. If you don't need it, you don't have to carry it, but still have a core functioning device.

[johncruise]

I'm pretty sure that majority will vote with the last 2 options. This is because they don't care because they haven't tried it yet. People who got hooked up on stuffing USB devices on their PDA won't be able to turn their back and evolve backwards (unless they really don't have real life applications on their everyday lives with USB on a PDA). But I for one use it almost everyday.

Anyway, for those people who are curious what you can hook up on your USB enabled PPC and where to get applications/drivers for it, checkout http://www.johncruise.com/pocketpc/index.php#secUSB

[Kevin Jackson]

I mostly use mine for USB flash drives for external storage and to connect to my iRiver H140 for 40GB of storage for my PPC. I have used a mouse a couple of times with it, but without a good way of propping up my PPC, it's kind of useless.

FWIW I have the Toshiba expansion pack and I'm using the DeJe USB drivers.

I love this feature and really think it will be a deal-breaker when looking for my next device.

[Stephen Beesley]

For me the main advantage I can see of USB host capability is being able to use USB flash memory storage devices. I have found that I keep copies of pretty much all of my important documents on one or other of the USB memory keys I carry around with me. Having direct access to them on my PPC would be very handy.

In fact the next purchase I am planning to make for my Toshiba e755 is either a USB host cable or the expansion pack for this very reason.

[Duncan]

Jason - the Loox 720 comes with the driver included. I'm told it is a standard UMS driver provided by Intel with the PXA27x range.

USB 1.1 is still faster than flash storage and running a film of a Muvo 2 directly into the Pocket PC is to be seen to be believed...!

[PR.]

I'm still not entirely sure what devices have a usb host anyway!

I have my ipaq 4700 now and I had heard that this supports USB host, but I'm not sure :oops:

[johncruise]

I'm still not entirely sure what devices have a usb host anyway!

I have my ipaq 4700 now and I had heard that this supports USB host, but I'm not sure :oops:

Last time I "heard", USB drivers are supposed to be built in WinCE 3.0 (seen it on MS website before). I'm not sure if they made their way to WM2003 (or in SE). But units that has USB drivers built in before that are Toshiba, Mitac, and Casio. Now looks like Fujitsu (Loox) have them as well. (I couldn't verify the other units). Still, if manufacturers didn't have a USB host accessories built for your PPC, chances are, the USB drivers that came with the newer PPC's are useless even if you buy a CF with USB host adapter (which then will require you to use 'their' drivers for it to work).

Update: and to support my claim :-)
http://www.microsoft.com/japan/windows/embedded/ce.net/evaluation/hardware/drivers.asp#USB

[carphead]

Well at the moment I'm trying to decide what to buy. Now both the new Loox and the ASUS have USB Host capability. I'm planning on the ASUS because the speed reports are better and the DPAD and Buton layout look better for Gaming.

What do I plan to connect? My Camera if it works, Flash drive, IPOD, 2.5" HDD Drives, USB Keyboard (Got a nice small Cherry kb).

Just waiting to see when the ASUS USB Host cable comes out ;)

[gorkon280]

It's handy. If I had USB Host, I could use the PDA in a low voltage MP3Player with a external hard disk. I could hook up my GPS easily (keyspan has a USB to Serial adapter supported on PPC). A full sized keybaord anytime I want. USB to Cell Modem cables woudl also work if you are not fortunate to have BT. Actually, most PPC's with USB hosting ability have the common drivers...not so much the uncommon ones like Mass Storage and Mice, but both of thsoe are available for free and do work. That said, BT will and should over take most things you'd use for a USB host cable including a keyboard and even a mouse. Now if they'd ever bring out that wifi SAN in the US, I'd be set...setup a AdHoc for that and no wires (BT to slow for Hard Disks).

[Shuushin]

It is handy. USB harddrive, natch - but I also use a mouse when my PPC is docked right next to my desktop PC; beats reaching for and struggling with the stylus.

I've only tried the IDE/USB drive, various thumbdrives and the mouse. I was wondering about a webcam, so I might try that one of these days.

[DanielTS]

In my last summer holydays, I could bring with me a lot of books, movies and music and I could bring back home a lot of digital photos and videos, thanks to my 80 GB external USB HD and my USB Host-enabled Toshiba e800. :wink:

[lhauser]

For me the main advantage I can see of USB host capability is being able to use USB flash memory storage devices. I have found that I keep copies of pretty much all of my important documents on one or other of the USB memory keys I carry around with me. Having direct access to them on my PPC would be very handy.

In fact the next purchase I am planning to make for my Toshiba e755 is either a USB host cable or the expansion pack for this very reason.

This is me, too. I'm waiting for Twin Paradox (www.twin-paradox.com) to release their CF USB host adapter...they were supposed to start shipping in late September, but I haven't heard from them yet. The minute I know it's available I'm buying one.

Lee

[DanielTS]

It is handy. USB harddrive, natch - but I also use a mouse when my PPC is docked right next to my desktop PC; beats reaching for and struggling with the stylus.

I've only tried the IDE/USB drive, various thumbdrives and the mouse. I was wondering about a webcam, so I might try that one of these days.
Some e800 owners use USB Bluetooth dongle : 8)
http://discussion.brighthand.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=104328

[DanielTS]

(Sony) camera & USB Host capable PPC : 8)
http://discussion.brighthand.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=99770&perpage=15&highlight=camera&pagenumber=1

[Jonathan1]

Couldn’t care less. My Pocket PC's primary goal is to be uber portable. Dragging along a ton of accessories defeats that purpose and if I'm going to need mass storage I'll take my laptop with me.

[DanielTS]

In my last summer holydays, I brought only my tiny 5Mpx camera, with 1GB SD, on the go. And I used my e800 & my 80 GB HD when coming back to the hotel to download photos, to read ebooks, to watch movies or to listen music.

[Boxster S]

Couldn’t care less. My Pocket PC's primary goal is to be uber portable. Dragging along a ton of accessories defeats that purpose and if I'm going to need mass storage I'll take my laptop with me.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[maximus]

USB host = the ability to directly connecting external 2.5" HDDs ?

Buy buy buy buy buy buy.
(as long as it still have the regular CF and SD slots, of course .. for those 'travelling light' days)

Now, put the USB 2.0 host on a 624 mhz PPCPE device with BT, wifi and SD slot :

Buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy.

[GoldKey]

Couldn’t care less. My Pocket PC's primary goal is to be uber portable. Dragging along a ton of accessories defeats that purpose and if I'm going to need mass storage I'll take my laptop with me.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think you are missing the point. The point is that it can be modular. If I am on vacation, I am going to bring my PPC and carry it most of the time, I would also take my iRiver most of the time anyway. If I have USB host, I don't need to bring the laptop too. If not, I carry the PPC, the Mp3 player AND the laptop. Having USB host would lighten my load.

[SteveHoward999]

In fact the next purchase I am planning to make for my Toshiba e755 is either a USB host cable or the expansion pack for this very reason.

Go for the expansion pack. You can use Screen Mirror to show your PPC screen on an external monitor, or use the PDA to power a screen/projector with PowerPoint files ... how cool is that? You turn up to do a presentation with nothing more than your PDA in your sweaty hand. No more lugging that old brick of a laptop about :-)

... And if you were really determined you could almost abandon the laptop all together if you have an external keyboard too ...

[nuka_t]

i just bought an x30. but my next pocket pc will definetly have USB host, unless something better comes along, but i really doubt that.

[SteveHoward999]

unless something better comes along, but i really doubt that.


So do you think it will take more than 6 months before you are regretting those rash words?

[Darius Wey]

I currently own a 2.5" portable USB-bus powered 40GB HDD that I frequently take with me as it complements my laptop well.

Now a Pocket PC that could suck the juice out of that hard disk as well would certainly make a USB port on the Pocket PC enticing. While it may be somewhat important, it's not exactly one of those do-or-die things that I can't live without.

[nuka_t]

unless something better comes along, but i really doubt that.


So do you think it will take more than 6 months before you are regretting those rash words?

i dont plan on buying another pocket pc for about two years, so i dont care if it takes 6 or 18, as long as its out in time 8)

[s_kates81]

I wish the Ipaq File storage works like a HD i.e. They extend the storage in GBs,so we don't need to buy expensive SD/CF cards anymore.Also USB is a cool thing,If it could work on PPC like it works on PC,it's GREAT.By watching the popularity and growing progress of PPC,I wonder if it would take much time to fulfil my dream about PPC.A built in HD,USB,and resolutions which we decide like we decide in our PC.

[wocket]

I never missed having USB host until I got a Tosh E800 with it. I like some others use it to read documents of pen drives. I also have mass storage drivers on it so I can hook it up to a 40GB drive. I know people have their iPOD's hooked up to it as well.

[pivo]

We did a review on the Toshiba Expansion Pack recently (http://www.pcdebolso.com/pcdb/noticia.asp?id=126 - available in Portuguese) and found the benefits of USB host.
Remember that most of the models from Toshiba are able to use USB Host by attaching a specific cable. This means that you can add bluetooth, external storage or an external keyboard to a low budget PPC like the e400 without sacrificing the SD slot.

We found out that USB host doesn't mean carrying the PPC a lot of stuff along. Just take the device and use what you have available in the place you are.
If there's a USB Keyboard available, that's great. If it doesn't, you can still use it as a regular PPC.
The only accessory we start carrying along was a USB port replicator. Soon you'll find out that only one USB port is not enough.

You can also use the USB Host enabled PPC as a 'bridge'. If there's no away of copying the photos you have in your digital camera to an external drive, just connect both to the PocketPC and use the File Explorer to move files from one to the other.Or sending photos from your camera through a Bluetooth enabled phone.

There is another point important when talking about USB Host. Accessories are cheaper. A regular USB Keyboard is cheaper than a PPC specific keyboard. And the problem isn't buying the first one. Is replacing a broken one. The same with Bluetooth or Storage acessories.
(I'm aware that PPC keyboards are foldable but I'm talking in generic terms).

Pedro Ivo Faria
Editor of pcdebolso.com

[Stephen Beesley]

We did a review on the Toshiba Expansion Pack recently (http://www.pcdebolso.com/pcdb/noticia.asp?id=126 - available in Portuguese) and found the benefits of USB host.
Remember that most of the models from Toshiba are able to use USB Host by attaching a specific cable. This means that you can add bluetooth, external storage or an external keyboard to a low budget PPC like the e400 without sacrificing the SD slot.

We found out that USB host doesn't mean carrying the PPC a lot of stuff along. Just take the device and use what you have available in the place you are.
If there's a USB Keyboard available, that's great. If it doesn't, you can still use it as a regular PPC.
The only accessory we start carrying along was a USB port replicator. Soon you'll find out that only one USB port is not enough.

You can also use the USB Host enabled PPC as a 'bridge'. If there's no away of copying the photos you have in your digital camera to an external drive, just connect both to the PocketPC and use the File Explorer to move files from one to the other.Or sending photos from your camera through a Bluetooth enabled phone.

There is another point important when talking about USB Host. Accessories are cheaper. A regular USB Keyboard is cheaper than a PPC specific keyboard. And the problem isn't buying the first one. Is replacing a broken one. The same with Bluetooth or Storage acessories.
(I'm aware that PPC keyboards are foldable but I'm talking in generic terms).

Pedro Ivo Faria
Editor of pcdebolso.com

Well I think that has sold me on the idea of getting the expansion pack for my e755.... :D

[rlobrecht]

I have a Toshiba E740. It has USB host capabilities, but I barely use it. I did try it with a keyboard, which was ok, except for trying to keep it propped up to see the screen.

[davea0511]

Couldn?t care less. My Pocket PC's primary goal is to be uber portable. Dragging along a ton of accessories defeats that purpose and if I'm going to need mass storage I'll take my laptop with me.

You got it backwards, Jonathan. USB devices are everywhere. That means if your PDA has a USB host you don't have to lug around your CF-slot peripherals, just use the USB peripherals already there at the office, your friends house, kinkos, etc.

[davea0511]

I have a Toshiba E740. It has USB host capabilities, but I barely use it. I did try it with a keyboard, which was ok, except for trying to keep it propped up to see the screen.

Dude... prop your PDA up with a spare piece of cardboard. It ain't rocket science.

[davea0511]

Undoubtedly peripheral producers do NOT want USB hosting on handhelds to fly. Device convergence could spell their death. Why do you think Sony comes out with a new proprietary interface every year? To force their customers to buy a whole new array of peripherals instead of reusing their older ones.

And yet, people are convinced their lives will be easier if they keep up with the proliferation of connection standards.

Sony has it right. The majority of consumers are too stupid to see how much money Sony's marketing strategy is taking from them. They didn't learn from betaMAX. They didn't learn from MiniDisc, they didn't learn from memory stick, and certainly won't see inter-peripheral compatability as a significant feature. Not when they can buy a whole new plethora of replacement peripherals.

And so goes on the fleecing of the brain dead consumer.

[Jonathan1]

You got it backwards, Jonathan. USB devices are everywhere. That means if your PDA has a USB host you don't have to lug around your CF-slot peripherals, just use the USB peripherals already there at the office, your friends house, kinkos, etc.

You need drivers for those peripherals though. A CD burner isn't going to work on a PPC. A scanner isn't going to work on a PPC. A mouse, without the appropriate software, isn't going to work. A keyboard might.
AS for mass storage. Why? Seriously. The only users who seem to be interested in this functionality are those who are actively trying to replace their laptop or mobile device. Those of us who are happy with our iPod, or laptop do not need this functionality. In fact does anyone know what additional hardware is required in the device itself to support this? If it would bulk up the device at all then I question the size vs. functionality. On top of that to really be able to use this you would have to carry around a dongle wherever you go because a PPC with USB host capabilities wouldn't have the USB interface built into it. It would either be on the cradle or on an external dongle, which again defeats the purpose of the device by requiring you to drag around an extra part.
Honestly if you are going to be carrying around:
1. Pocket PC
2. USB to proprietary interface dongle
3. hard drive
4. USB cable for hard drive.
5. Power cord for hard drive.

Then what is the advantage over say carrying a laptop? It's less cables. Easier access to the data. Easier setup (Power on and go vs. plug everything in and go.) The list goes on and on. This IMHO feels like a W?BIC! thing.
Now don't get me wrong.

Right now my PPC serves one goal. A device that gives the majority of the functionality of my desktop/laptop that can be thrown into a pocket and taken with me where ever I go. I realize there are people who can find a legit use for this capability but I think by and large most people just don't care. Just my .02 cents. YMMV.

[GoldKey]

Jonathan1,

See my post above about the modularity of this solution. I carry my PPC and iRiver almost all the time. When traveling I need to bring a laptop too. If I had USB host, I could most likely leave the laptop home, so 1 dongle would replace an entire laptop and it's powercable in my travel bag.

[StarkAZ75]

Sony has it right. The majority of consumers are too stupid to see how much money Sony's marketing strategy is taking from them. They didn't learn from betaMAX.

Funny you should mention Sony and beta in the same statement, as I was just comparing Sony's latest proprietary jukebox file format to beta just the other day. You'd think they'd learn from iPod and just put MP3 capability into it.

As for the whole USB thing, I think it'd be nice to have USB host capability on a pocket pc, but I've never let that determine my buying decision. When I'm carrying around my pocket pc, the only extra thing I even want to carry is my WiFi CF card. I think carrying around extra stuff like an external harddrive or even a keyboard really defeats the purpose of the small PPC formfactor. Although, it would be nice to have one of those flexible keyboards. Otherwise, I think most "normal" PPC users (meaning those who don't frequent online chat boards) don't use PPC's for much more than their basic functions. If they need anything more, they'll go to their laptop.

[Kati Compton]

Otherwise, I think most "normal" PPC users (meaning those who don't frequent online chat boards) don't use PPC's for much more than their basic functions. If they need anything more, they'll go to their laptop.
Most "normal" PPC users aren't going to buy a VGA device either. I'd bet that a higher % of VGA-purchasers want USB host than QVGA-purchasers.

[Jonathan1]

Undoubtedly peripheral producers do NOT want USB hosting on handhelds to fly. Device convergence could spell their death. Why do you think Sony comes out with a new proprietary interface every year?


:confused totally: Huh. Sony hasn't come up with any proprietary interfaces. The only thing really proprietary they currently have is their damn memory stick format that was changed when they went to the pro series. Beyond that there isn't some grand conspiracy going on. It's simply cost of production vs. customer demand. I think by and large most consumers don't really care about USB hosting. Even here on Pocket PC thoughts, the epitome of geekdom, the results of the host poll show that most don't consider it a deal breaker and in fact those who don't even care about outrank those who think its essential.
Hardware manufacturers also aren't going to cater to something that has hardly any software/driver support.
Again at best you have keyboard, and disk drive support out of the box. Mice, scanners, printers, fax machines, CD burners, DVD drives all need accompanying software and drivers to work and as it stands those are next to nonexistent at best.
On a device like the OQO which has native drive support for all these devices it makes much more sense. For the PPC? Not really.

[DanielTS]

You need drivers for those peripherals though. A CD burner isn't going to work on a PPC. A scanner isn't going to work on a PPC. A mouse, without the appropriate software, isn't going to work. A keyboard might.
AS for mass storage. Why?
If an USB device manufacturer wants to sell a device, the device software (USB driver, appropriate device application) has to be provided with the device.
If the device is standard, i.e. mass storage device, keyboard, mouse, standard communication device, …, the device software is available in the O.S or downloadable (i.e. Ratoc’s USB mass storage driver, File Explorer), manufacturers provide only USB devices.

If the device is not standard, the manufacturer has to provide the appropriate software.
As PC Windows is pervasive, nowadays, manufacturers provide USB devices and appropriate PC Windows-based software.
If USB Host PPC becomes pervasive, non standard USB equipment manufacturers will also provide PPC-based software (chicken and egg problem) :lol: .


In fact does anyone know what additional hardware is required in the device itself to support this? If it would bulk up the device at all then I question the size vs. functionality.

PPC industrials believe in USB Host: :D

. ATI : integrated USB OTG (USB host & USB client) function in the media co-processor ATI Imageon 3200 (Toshiba e800, Mitac Mio 558)
http://www.ati.com/products/imageon3200/index.html

http://www.mobile01.com/iopiop/mio558/bottom.JPG

. Intel : integrated USB Host function in the processor Xscale PXA27x (Loox 720, Asus A730)

http://www.intel.com/design/pca/images/bd_pxa27x.gif


On top of that to really be able to use this you would have to carry around a dongle wherever you go because a PPC with USB host capabilities wouldn't have the USB interface built into it. It would either be on the cradle or on an external dongle, which again defeats the purpose of the device by requiring you to drag around an extra part.
Honestly if you are going to be carrying around:
1. Pocket PC
2. USB to proprietary interface dongle
3. hard drive
4. USB cable for hard drive.
5. Power cord for hard drive.

Then what is the advantage over say carrying a laptop? It's less cables. Easier access to the data. Easier setup (Power on and go vs. plug everything in and go.)
USB host capable laptop or USB host capable PPC => same usage context :wink:

If you need extra mass storage for your device (laptop or USB host capable PPC), you need to link it to the external USB hard drive with an appropriate cable.

And you have also easy set-up for both devices, laptop or USB host capable PPC : USB Plug N Play :mrgreen:

[bnycastro]

How does it work? I mean is it like a desktop? Where in when you plugin an accessory it is recognized or the drivers are installed from a CD? Won't the PPC be needing a special driver? How would you get it?

How about power consumption? I mean everyone is talking about connecting this and that accessory; what about power? Is the USB goin to take in less power than let's say a normal CF card?

[DanielTS]

It works like a PC. :D
And indeed, USB is Plug and Play, if your PC or your PPC have appropriate software.
For a given USB device, your PC or your PPC need an appropriate USB software (driver, device application).

For standard USB device like USB mass storage Hard Drive, your PC (Windows) or some PPC have natively USB driver and File Explorer (device application).
If your PPC doesn’t have an USB mass storage driver, you can download it from Ratoc (http://www.ratocsystems.com/english/support/driver/cfu1.html), an USB Host Adapter CF Card manufacturer, or you can get it from Anypak (http://www.anypakusa.com/), an USB hard drive manufacturer.

Concerning power consumption, it depends on the USB device.
As far I know, current PPC’s USB host ports don’t deliver enough power to current USB Hard Drives. Current USB Hard Drives need to have an own power supply (AC or battery).
An USB memory key, an USB Bluetooth dongle, an USB mouse or an USB keyboard don’t have this power problem with current PPC’s USB host ports .

[disconnected]

Kind of off-topic, but...

We tend to divide people into "normal" users (who don't look at boards), and "abnormal"? users (people here :) ). It seems like PPCs, especially the new VGA ones, are getting so complicated that I can't imagine being able to use half of the built-in features (which is why I assume that anyone buys the more expensive models) without either being a very techie person, or spending a lot of time on boards begging for help (this would be me :oops: ).

I also have been looking for something to prop up my PPC, more for reading in restaurants than for typing, etc. I'd love to see a small collapsible stand. I actually emailed one of the sites selling a bluetooth keyboard with separate stand, asking if the stand could be bought separately, but they said no. I don't know what you'd do if you bought the keyboard and stand and then lost the stand.

To return belatedly to the topic, I'd like USB host capability for mass storage, but it's not a deal-breaker for me.

[ctmagnus]

I also have been looking for something to prop up my PPC, more for reading in restaurants than for typing, etc.

PDA Pivot (http://www.pdapivot.com/). If you look around the site, you can find better prices than are on the front page.

I've seen something else similar but with more functionality, but can't recall what/where it was.

[davea0511]

Kind of off-topic, but...

I also have been looking for something to prop up my PPC, more for reading in restaurants than for typing, etc. I'd love to see a small collapsible stand. I actually emailed one of the sites selling a bluetooth keyboard with separate stand, asking if the stand could be bought separately, but they said no. I don't know what you'd do if you bought the keyboard and stand and then lost the stand.



I feel sorry to rlobrecht for my response about this. He mentioned that the only thing he used USB Host with was a keyboard, but there was no way to prop up his PPC, to which I regret that I responded sarcastically. My beef really didn't relate much to his comment but to other comments. Non-proprietary and cross-platform interfaces and standards are so empowering for the consumer that I really get bent out of shape when people don't widely support them, especially when all PPC's have a wired communications port anyway, and the additional silicon needed to make it into a USB Host is almost nil (I know, I've worked years in the chip engineering industry with USB chips).

Here's some options you might want to check out for propping up a PPC:

http://www.displaysbyrioux.com/product.php?cat_id=30
http://www.displaycaseart.com/acryliceasels.html
http://store.yahoo.com/aftosa-test/easelahv.html

I don't know how any of them would work, but they're all dirt cheap, some are collapsible or interlocking.

[Jonathon Watkins]

Good on you Davea0511. Always good to lend a helping hand. :way to go:

About USB hosting I'm ambivelent. I can see why I would want it, but I do like the look of the X50 and 4700, which don't have it. :?

No such thing as the perfect Pocket PC. :wink:

[DVD]

.... When I'm carrying around my pocket pc, the only extra thing I even want to carry is my WiFi CF card....

Funny you should say that: my 5550 has built-in wifi; but in my briefcase I have expansion jacket, CF-to-ethernet card, and cat5 cables (straight-through and cross-over). This allows me to connect to clients' LANs/PCs, for both file transfer and trouble-shooting. Means I can be selective about when I carry my laptop.

[Steve Jordan]

Since my Toshiba e330 does not include wireless, I've tried to connect my cellphone (Motorola v60i) to it to allow mobile e-mail access (and internet if you're desperate) anywhere there's cellular access. But although I was able to find appropriate cables, I was never able to get a working driver onto the e330.
Although I can see access to USB sticks, etc, having mobile e-mail access is the main reason I wanted a USB port. But having access to the wealth of USB peripherals sounds great to me. Example: Connecting my MP3 player directly to the PPC and downloading songs. My next PPC choice will probably address wireless more reliably (probably by buying a PPC cellphone).

[SteveHoward999]

Since my Toshiba e330 does not include wireless, I've tried to connect my cellphone (Motorola v60i) to it to allow mobile e-mail access (and internet if you're desperate) anywhere there's cellular access. But although I was able to find appropriate cables, I was never able to get a working driver onto the e330.


Can you not connect to your phone with IR? I used to use my E330 and my Nokia 6210i in exactly this way.

[Steve Jordan]

The e330 does do wireless, but the Motorola v60i does not. I've had the phone longer than the PPC, and I haven't broken down and replaced the phone just for that. Again, I figured my next PPC would be a PPC/cellphone combo, solving that problem. But it won't happen until I need to replace one of them.

[disconnected]

Thanks, ctmagnus and davea0511.

The Pivot thing looks very cool, but I'm afraid it might be a little heavy, and I've never quite been able to bring myself to attach velcro to a PPC. I think one of those small collapsible easels might work with maybe adding something to make the upper part a little taller; I'm going to order a few and I'm sure I'll find some way to use them. :)

I wish PPCs weren't still such a niche market; I think I'd spend a fortune on accessories, if only there were more of them. Yesterday, I happened to see a magazine devoted to ipods, and I was really jealous of all the stuff they had -- many pages of cases, etc.

[Len M.]

JUSB 1.1 is still faster than flash storage and running a film of a Muvo 2 directly into the Pocket PC is to be seen to be believed...!

In our tests on the Toshiba e755, USB storage (and Addonics Pocket ExDrive running an Hitachi/IBM TravelStar 20 GB drive, with USB 2.0 interface) is not quite as fast as a SanDisk 1 GB SD card.


Len Moskowitz
Core Sound
www.core-sound.com
(Home of PDAudio)

[Len M.]

The main problem with USB hard drives is that they draw too much current to be directly powered from the PDA, even if the drive is designed to be powered via USB. That's true even for tiny little drives like the 20 and 40 GB Arch0s ARCdisk -- you have to lug in a wall wart or external 5 VDC battery pack.

So tell the manufacturers that if they give us USB host, to give the USB port enough power supply current capacity to make a portable drive truly portable.


Len Moskowitz
Core Sound
www.core-sound.com
(Home of PDAudio)

[Len M.]

Drivers are the other problem. Very few of the companies that make USB devices see the PDA market as large enough to justify developing a PDA-specific driver.

It can cost roughly $20 to $40K to develop that driver -- you'll need to sell on the order of 1000 units to PDA users to recoup costs. At the moment, in the Audio world, that market doesn't yet exist.

For mass market devices (like mass storage and keyboards) it makes more sense.


Len Moskowitz
Core Sound
www.core-sound.com
(Home of PDAudio)

[Kati Compton]

The main problem with USB hard drives is that they draw too much current to be directly powered from the PDA, even if the drive is designed to be powered via USB. That's true even for tiny little drives like the 20 and 40 GB Arch0s ARCdisk -- you have to lug in a wall wart or external 5 VDC battery pack.

So tell the manufacturers that if they give us USB host, to give the USB port enough power supply current capacity to make a portable drive truly portable.
Which is why a HD music player would be nice, as they have their own battery...

But again, it's also for interfacing with things like USB sticks.

[Len M.]

Which is why a HD music player would be nice, as they have their own battery...

Can you recommend a HD music player that works well as a USB hard drive?


Len Moskowitz
Core Sound
www.core-sound.com
(Home of PDAudio)

[Kati Compton]

Which is why a HD music player would be nice, as they have their own battery...

Can you recommend a HD music player that works well as a USB hard drive?
Not yet, as I haven't yet used one. I'm looking at the iRiver, though.

[Len M.]

We have an iRiver iHP-120 here. I'll try it with our Toshiba e755 and post the results.


Len Moskowitz
Core Sound
www.core-sound.com

[Kati Compton]

We have an iRiver iHP-120 here. I'll try it with our Toshiba e755 and post the results.
Keep in mind for something like watching movies that are ON the iRiver (or playing songs on the iRiver), you definitely need software that performs buffering so you don't have a continuous read of the device.

Personally, I'd copy the file over to the PPC first before viewing/listening.

[Len M.]

Keep in mind for something like watching movies that are ON the iRiver (or playing songs on the iRiver), you definitely need software that performs buffering so you don't have a continuous read of the device.

We use it for continuous writing (high resolution audio recording). It's a tough test for a PDA storage device.


Len Moskowitz
Core Sound
www.core-sound.com

[DanielTS]

http://www.usb.org/developers/onthego/otg-graphics.gif (http://www.usb.org/developers/onthego/)

[DanielTS]

Key PPC industrials believe in USB Host (USB On The Go (OTG) : USB client & USB host) :

A detailed Intel PXA270 (Bulverde) / Intel 2700G (Marathon) Reference PPC block diagram:

http://www.ppccool.com/uploads/post-85-1095175575.jpg

A more detailed PXA270 (Bulverde) / 2700G (Marathon) Reference PPC block diagram:

http://www.ppccool.com/uploads/post-7-1095275138.jpg

[Jonathon Watkins]

http://www.usb.org/developers/onthego/otg-graphics.gif (http://www.usb.org/developers/onthego/)

Someone's read the 'USB on the go' post and has been to the USB.org website. :wink:

[DanielTS]

I was caught!!! :lol: :mrgreen:

[davea0511]

Drivers are the other problem. Very few of the companies that make USB devices see the PDA market as large enough to justify developing a PDA-specific driver.

It can cost roughly $20 to $40K to develop that driver -- you'll need to sell on the order of 1000 units to PDA users to recoup costs. At the moment, in the Audio world, that market doesn't yet exist.

For mass market devices (like mass storage and keyboards) it makes more sense.


Len Moskowitz
Core Sound
www.core-sound.com
(Home of PDAudio)

If I'm doing my math right, and if it costs $30K to develop the driver like you state, and they make $100 per USB accesory then they only have to sell 300 devices to PPC users to recoup the costs, not 1000.

Besides, I think your estimated cost must be too high. Deje created the USB mass storage driver for the community for free. Also, USB.org has this "USB-on-the-go" push, I'm sure they'd be happy to help any developer create a WinCE driver - especially when the developer already created a WinXP driver.

[jasondearyou]

there just don't seem like enought support for USB devices so it would be tedious and expensive to be buying all these stuff to carry around

[maikii]

I'm not looking for a new PPC now, and I don't know if many PPCs will ever have that--but sure, it would be nice, if also supported by software drivers for USB devices.

There has already been a device out, to go into a CF slot, that adds two USB host ports to a PPC. (Pretty large, bulky thing though, would be much better to have USB host port built in.) However, I recall when that device was discussed here, the problem would be software support. XP comes with a lot of built-in support for USB devices. WindowsMobile does not. To use a USB device with a PPC, it would not be enough to connect the device to the PPC via a USB cable, there have to be drivers to support it.

If such ports start to become common on PPCs, I would assume that such driver support would become available from device manufacturers, and eventually in a version of the WM OS as well. But if this is the only PPC that will have a USB host port, and drivers do not become available for it, it might be the last PPC to have such a port.

[DanielTS]

To use a CF, SD, MS :twisted: or USB device with a PPC (or a PC), it would not be enough to connect the device to the PPC (or a PC) via a CF, SD, MS :devilboy: or USB cable, there have to be drivers to support it.

[Len M.]

We have an iRiver iHP-120 here. I'll try it with our Toshiba e755 and post the results.

The Toshiba doesn't recognize the iRiver as a USB hard drive. It probably needs a driver and iRiver does not provide one for PDAs.

When we tried the Archos ARCdisk, we simply plugged it in and the Toshiba recognized it. Unfortunately the ARCdisk doesn't have an internal battery (though it does have a DC power jack so you can attach an external battery), and it's not very fast.


Len Moskowitz
Core Sound
www.core-sound.com

[Patiko]

There are also business benefits for having the USB host.
I'm working on a wireless PDA project and I need to have barcode reading on the PDA. I've found this topic extremely helpful so far!

The integrated PDA/barcode scanning solutions are extremely expensive. I wanted a cost effective solution so i wanted to buy a $10 modified CueCat usb barcode scanner on ebay and hook it up to a PDA.

The barcode scanner is supposed to work in Windows without any additional software. So could I assume that it would work with a toshiba e800 without any additional software? How could I find this out before I shell out for an e800?

The other option is to get an iPaq and a cf usb host but the existing hosts seem to be quite expensive. e.g. the Ratoc http://www.ratocsystems.com/english/products/subpages/cfu1u.html
The Ratoc site says that its compatible with barcode scanners but I don't know if this is through their drivers or PocketPc drivers.
Whats so great about the twin paradox host that has everybody so excited when the Ratoc one is already available?

[Bugblatter]

I had a project at work which involved using the input from a barode scanner in my app. It was very easy since all the barcode scanner does it to emulate a keyboard. When you scan a barcode it seems to the PC as if you just typed the numbers in on a keyboard (very fast).

The scanners used the ps2 port rather than USB, but I'm pretty sure that the USB versions worked the same way.

So my theory is that, if USB keyboards will work without additional drivers, then chances are a barcode scanner will too.

No guarantees though as I haven't tried it.

[Mitch D]

Just a quick thanks to all who posted in this thread, I got my usb host working fine with my E830 thanks to all the suggestions and links listed hear!

:D

[Len M.]

What are you connecting to the USB port on your e830?


Len Moskowitz
Core Sound
www.core-sound.com
(Home of PDAudio)

[PlaidRadish]

I've been reading this thread, and finally decided to get in on it.

A few of the posts knocked USB ports on PDA's early in the thread. My Toshiba e740 has always had that ability, via the Expansion Pack. I love it, but it seems it only reaches a particular audience effectively: gamers and professionals. Everyone else seems stupified as to what to do with it.

Gamers immediately plug in a keyboard, mouse, or joystick to use it for their leisurely time-wasting antics. Professionals immediately understand the productive capabilities of multiple pro-grade input devices, such as thumbprint security, barcode scanners, and other elite-platform device transfers within the workplace and abroad. My company has two generic-driver printers with ports exposed for printing, as does the new FedEx/Kinko's stores. I have all the necessary drivers, and can stop off and print wherever, whenever, etc. I think that while it's a somewhat awkward port to access (how to set up the screen for visibilty or lay it flat and still read it), it's superbly functional.

just my two cents, ... I'm sure someone will rip me to shreds for it...

-me

[Stephen Beesley]

For me the main advantage I can see of USB host capability is being able to use USB flash memory storage devices. I have found that I keep copies of pretty much all of my important documents on one or other of the USB memory keys I carry around with me. Having direct access to them on my PPC would be very handy.

In fact the next purchase I am planning to make for my Toshiba e755 is either a USB host cable or the expansion pack for this very reason.

Well I never did get that USB expansion Pack, but I am currently playing around with an old Casio E-200 (more on that soon... :wink:) which has USB Host capability via both a port in the cradle and through an PCMCIA/extended battery sleeve (there was also a USB expansion pack which I do not have).

So far I have found it excellent for transferring files around from a USB Memory key (just the use I was thinking about in my original post), but I have also had a play around with a USB mouse, which worked very well in conjunction with my Targus IR keyboard.

Although my next PPC will almost certainly not have USB Host (probably going to get the Dell x50v very soon :D) it is something that I would really love to see included on more, if not all, devices.

I cannot say enough how much I love being able to use a flash drive on my PPC.