Hard Disks for Handhelds

[Jonathon Watkins]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.theinquirer.net/pocket.aspx?article=18681' target='_blank'>http://www.theinquirer.net/pocket.a...x?article=18681</a><br /><br /></div><i>"The first hard drive in 1956 was the IBM 305 RAMAC, and cost $10,000 per MB – it had a capacity of 5MB. But now the cost, Fox said, is something under 10 cents per MB and that he said, is a retail figure, including tax. Average home will have 15 hard drives, although most households don’t know it. There are some hard drives in cars and they’re starting to appear in mobile phones. Hard drive vendors are getting overexcited about the potential of hard drives in the mobile market. Although 260 million units shipped last year, the figures for mobile phones far exceed that number."</i><br /><br />We've already got a Samsung mobile phone with a hard drives, so when will we see Pocket PCs sporting them? The Inquirer article mentions that Hitachi’s CE ATA interface is specifically designed for handhelds, as mobile users don't need the same speed or throughput that desktop users require. It does of course help that this reduced specification makes the units substantially cheaper. :wink: <br /><br />So, how do you feel about the prospect of PPCs with hard drives? On one side you have the possibility of large amounts of cheap, fast storage, while on the other you have the problem of increased fragility and power consumption. Would you like a PPC with an embedded (non-removable) hard drive? What are your thoughts about the pros and cons?

[PJE]

I'm looking forward to installing a 80GB CF card into my soon to be purchased Dell X50v....

As long as the drive is only used for storage, and powers off when not in use I can only see it as a plus. But I don't want it to replace the built-in flash for the OS and most requently used programs.

[MikeUnwired]

I think the problem in putting a hard drive in a Pocket PC comes dow to price. For instance, you can get a 20 GB iPod with a nice 20 GB Toshiba PC Card drive for about $299. BUT, add-in the VGA screen and other feature set of say a Dell Axim x50v or an HP iPAQ hx4700 and you put the price of the unit up close to $1000 with an internal hard drive.

I'd like to see PPCs with a decent amount of built-in memory that approaches some of the MP3 players that we see people scavanging for their CF Micros-drives, but it will be hard for manufacturers to belly-up to higher price points for the mass consumption market.

I'm happy to report that my new hx4700 has enough power going tot he CF slot to drive a Toshiba 5 GB PC Card drive with an adapter. That combo makes my PPC a real computer as opposed to a lite version or desktoip take-away unit.

[delfuhd]

I think flash memory is just easier. No moving parts to worry about, more reliable (I hear more about hard drives crashing than my 64MB Flash RAM chip), it is quieter, and it consumes less battery power. And, well the large capacities for less money would be nice (I think it is that way, is it?), but I'm still doing fine with my 1 gig and 256 meg CF, and my two 128 meg SDs, and I'm sure many many other people are doing quite fine with much less storage than I have.

[powder2000]

Wouldn't you need more ram for this sort of application. All these hard drives are not meant to spin continuously. This of course saves on battery but limits the amount of information you can load. With the latest news on all the new CF/SD cards with pricing coming down daily, this idea seems less attractive to me than it did a year ago. Why not just install a 1GB CF inside the unit and make it upgradable?

[Stephen Beesley]

the idea of having 20gb of storage on my PPC does have some appeal but I agree that I would not want to see it replacing the flash memory model for the OS and Programs. Why? You ask.

Well for one thing I suspect that the moment you start having such large amount of storage available for OS/programs we are going to see some really serious program bloat starting to happen (we already have some programs that take multiple megabites to load and run) and we would probably end up in just about the same position comparatively speaking...

[upplepop]

This recent thread (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=31869) discusses pretty much the same thing.

As for my $0.02, I would love to get a hard drive-based mp3 player, but I just can't justify it when I am already lugging around a PPC (and a cell phone). I have a 1GB CF card that I use, but with only 1GB, I frequently have to upload new songs to it when I get tired of the ones on there. Also, I don't have the ability to carry every song with me, so if I get in the mood to hear a certain song, I most likely don't have it on the card.

I am certainly willing to sacrifice a little battery life to get a hard drive, and with good caching techniques, it won't be that much of a energy-drain. Load programs in RAM or a storage card and put media on the HD.

If you look in the thread I mentioned above, someone is releasing a PPC with a hard drive.

[organon]

[i]"The first hard drive in 1956 was the IBM 305 RAMAC, and cost $10,000 per MB – it had a capacity of 5MB. But now the cost, Fox said, is something under 10 cents per MB and that he said, is a retail figure, including tax.
Huh? By my calculations, hard drive costs are well under 1 cent per MB. I see a 200 GB Seagate drive at NewEgg for $120. $120 / 200 = 60 cents per GIGABYTE. $0.60 / 1000 = $0.0006 or six one-hundredth's of a cent per megabyte. Even the $299 20GB PC card is only 1.5 cents per megabyte. Oh well, the sentiment is correct if not the math... :roll:

[MadTxn]

Considering the number of times I've dropped my PDA and cell phone, I don't think a hard drive is a good idea for me. Unless they have some super-duper-uber-protected one.

[nosmohtac]

Would you like a PPC with an embedded (non-removable) hard drive? What are your thoughts about the pros and cons?

I'm sure many would have a different view on ths from mine, but as you stated the question my answer would be a definite no. The deciing factor for me would be whether it is user removeable. With Toshiba developing .85 inch HDs, there would be a great possibility for PDA vendors to use a slot, inside the battery compartment, to install one of these drives. I could be very similar to the way many OEMs have put the slot for the backup battey slot that hold the CR2032 battery.

[Solarix]

Yeah I was scratching my head too at the $0.10 a MB. Good to know I wasn't the only one.

[KAMware]

I think development of moveable media storage is just beating a dead horse. It is old technology made smaller. It is neat that they can make it smaller but spinning parts for storage... not for me. Solid state non movable storage is the future, as it should be. :)

[surur]

With Toshiba developing .85 inch HDs, there would be a great possibility for PDA vendors to use a slot, inside the battery compartment, to install one of these drives. I could be very similar to the way many OEMs have put the slot for the backup battery slot that hold the CR2032 battery.

This is a very cool idea. I mean, why not? It would have to be an internal CF type 2 slot however, else we would have to wait for a new standard, and that could take years.

Surur

[rocky_raher]

... else we would have to wait for a new standard, and that could take years.

Surur

Years? The manufacturers seem to be coming out with a new memory card "standard" every couple of weeks or so. :-)

[rocky_raher]

If I were designing a PDA, I'd use a multi-gig micro hard drive coupled with a 1G compact flash cache. For most users, the cache would ensure that the drive would rarely have to spin up, thus minimizing the battery drain and possibility of a head crash. The drive would have a strong head parking mechanism to protect against shock. [I would hope that this feature is already present in the current micro drives!]

[nosmohtac]

With Toshiba developing .85 inch HDs, there would be a great possibility for PDA vendors to use a slot, inside the battery compartment, to install one of these drives. I could be very similar to the way many OEMs have put the slot for the backup battery slot that hold the CR2032 battery.

This is a very cool idea. I mean, why not? It would have to be an internal CF type 2 slot however, else we would have to wait for a new standard, and that could take years.

Surur
Thanks, I think it would be cool too. I don't know that the new Toshiba HDs would require a CF type II slot, I mean if they are .85 inches you wouldn't need a slot that big would you? I'm all for a HD on a PPC, but it would have to be user removeable. I can just see how it would go - the first year out, you would be able to easily afford 4-8 GB, then the next year they would have 12-30 GB hard drives, and you would want one, but you'd have to buy a new device. If they put a slot under the battery to upgrade the HD, then I would be all for it. I think the industry would have to come to some sort of standard on miniature HDs though before any OEM would jump on board and include it on their device (user removeable, that is).

[Damion Chaplin]

Well, at first I was like 'Yeah, I want serious gigs in my PPC', but then I thought about it...

If companies like IBM can take their miniature hard drives and install them into a CF form factor enclosure (to get microdrives), how long do you think it will be before they can do the same thing only with the SD form factor? My guess is within 2 years.

When it comes down to it, I think that's the option I would want. Just give me an 200-gig SD card and I'll be happy. :D

[surur]

I think the industry would have to come to some sort of standard on miniature HDs though before any OEM would jump on board and include it on their device (user removeable, that is).

Which is why I think it should be compact flash. There is already plenty of people making compact flash storage, flash or hard drive. You could then choose to use a hard drive or flash, depending on your price/storage/battery life requirements.

Everybody would be happy!! :)

Surur

[WyattEarp]

I like things just the way they are. I don't need a device in my pocket that needs to have an HD spin up so I can use it; I've got a PC that does that. Plus rotating media permanently in a PDA is not the best idea. What happens when the HD fails; even having it removeable (outside of being the CF HD cards we have now) as the main drive isn't cool. Back to the first problem of drive failure. Not to mention RAM is just plain faster. Instant on is how it should be and how it should stay. If they can make 2 GB SD cards and 8 Gb CF cards then I want to see PPCs with 2+ GB of Flash memory built-in. It's about time someone does it.

[nuka_t]

i htink its a great idea. like on the desktop, it will allow rival OS's like linux to give MS more competition, but were not going to tell taht to microsof :devilboy:

[maximus]

If I were designing a PDA, I'd use a multi-gig micro hard drive coupled with a 1G compact flash cache.

A cache that will fail anytime between 10,000-100,000 writes ? :wink:

[WyattEarp]

If I were designing a PDA, I'd use a multi-gig micro hard drive coupled with a 1G compact flash cache.

A cache that will fail anytime between 10,000-100,000 writes ? :wink:

Agree. Wh use a milti-gig Hdwhen you can have multi-gig FlashRAM or ROM which is faster and safer. :D

[Jonathon Watkins]

... else we would have to wait for a new standard, and that could take years.

Surur

Years? The manufacturers seem to be coming out with a new memory card "standard" every couple of weeks or so. :-)

Agreed. We don't need *another* new slot standard...... :?

[Jonathon Watkins]

I think development of moveable media storage is just beating a dead horse. It is old technology made smaller. It is neat that they can make it smaller but spinning parts for storage... not for me. Solid state non movable storage is the future, as it should be. :)

I first of all thought that having a HDD in a PPC would be a good idea, but indeed, the movable parts argument is winning me over. The manufacturers should just embedded a 4Gb CF card inside the unit and optimise the size and power drain. Solid state is the way to go really. Especially with all the recent increases in CF storage sizes. :D

[Jonathon Watkins]

i htink its a great idea. like on the desktop, it will allow rival OS's like linux to give MS more competition, but were not going to tell taht to microsof :devilboy:

Not quite following you Nuka_t. We're talking about hard disk drives in PPCs, not having other OSs available. They would need to reside in the ROM in any case. Having them on a hard disk to dual boot is not an option. :wink: