"Palm Thinks It Knows Better Than European Users"

[Ed Hansberry]

<a href="http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1644687,00.asp?kc=EWRSS03129TX1K0000605">http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1644687,00.asp?kc=EWRSS03129TX1K0000605</a><br /><br />I have been saying this for <i>years!</i> My biggest problem with Palm is not specifically how the OS works or doesn't work. There are a lot of applications and operating systems that I don't like particular aspects of and I simply don't use them. Palm has always gotten under my skin though because they repeatedly tell you how you should use the device. They told you you didn't need a color screen, you didn't need storage cards, multitasking, etc. <br /><br />Well, the Treo 600 is faring quite poorly in Europe. Orange reportedly has inventory they can't move, which is is a stark contrast to the US market where resellers have had difficulty keeping the 600 on the shelves. Europe is a very different place than the US when it comes to cell phones and, yes, bluetooth technology. They were told before they went to Europe, put bluetooth in the devices. Seeing how much of a general flop bluetooth is in the US, Palm didn't see the need. They knew better. :roll: <br /><br /><i>"Orange has had the exclusive rights to the Treo, and it certainly hasn't been short of product. They'll tell you as much—and they told Forbes as much: "Gartner analyst Carolina Milanesi said: 'We still see [the Palm OS] as a very niche operating system beside Symbian and Microsoft Pocket PC. PalmOne has a geographical advantage in the US, and I don't think the reason it has not taken off here is all to do with the supply...When they showed me the prototype of the Treo 600, I said: "It's got to have Bluetooth, for Europe!" Anybody who actually lived in Europe could have warned them, and did: "We're all going to legally mandated hands-free, and drivers don't want wires tangled around the gear shift and hand-brake."' </i><br /><br />They know better.

[whydidnt]

I certainly agree with the sentiment of this story. However, I don't think Palm is alone with their blinders on. I think both Sony and Toshiba have been quite blind to the wants and needs of the US market when it comes to handheld devices.

It seems many manufacturers don't really explore their market before entering it.

[Lucky Bob]

It seems many manufacturers don't really explore their market before entering it.Then they scratch their heads and wonder why no one is buying their products. Then they pull out. :roll:

[whydidnt]

Then they scratch their heads and wonder why no one is buying their products. Then they pull out. :roll:

Lucky Bob, you are exactly right. Sony and Toshiba are both prime examples of this. Why the heck couldn't I buy a Clie TH55 with Bluetooth, when the rest of the world could? Why didn't Toshiba offer the option of Bluetooth on the E805 to US customers.

I think the XDA II is another great example. The original XDA offered here was big, clunky and buggy. Sales suffered here, so everyone said "The US market doesn't like complicated multi-function devices" and never even offered the improved XDA II here. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy when you offer questionable products that fail and never offer to explore WHY they failed.

[HTK]

And Microsoft thinks we don't need the Close Button

Maybe I just need to give up my own opinions and accept what the companies tell me that I need and want and become a techie zombie

:cry:

[mbranscum]

Now Ed....as a regular reader of PPCT's, I'm gonna have to say you didn't quite tell the whole story on this one. In spite of the poor sales in Europe, the Treo 600 has had remarkable success as a smart phone. True, it didn't have bluetooth, however the company has been working on that, which was not mentioned by you or the author/article you referenced, Guy Kewney at EWeek.

I think PalmOne *is* listening. There are reports that a new upgraded unit which includes bluetooth and an ungraded 320x320 display, along with a *smaller* footprint is already being manufactured by HTC and set for mass shipping in October/November. You can go here for the link to this article which appeared 09/13/04 at the DigiTimes site.

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20040913B3087.html

I am a dedicated PPC user like everone else here, but I also like and use a Palm. Again, I believe your statement that PalmOne isn't listening to it's costumers is a bit harsh, based on recent develoments. :wink:

[bvkeen]

And apparently Microsoft doesn't think we need reliable alarms. I have both my e800 and Palm T3 with me today because I know the T3 will remind me when I have an appointment coming up. It turns out I prefer the e800 for just about all the other aspects, though, but that's just me - both platforms have a lot going for them, both have problems, and Palm and Microsoft both could do better.

There are advantages and disadvantages to both platforms and there pluses and minuses for just about everyone of the suppliers and manufacturers.

[bjornkeizers]

I agree 100% with the article. I'm a european - and I could've told them this would happen. Here's the thing: your average european won't buy a Treo. They don't know what it is, they don't need it, it's too expensive.

Who buys Treo's? Business people. People who spend hours on the road, and thus need to use a handsfree set. If a business phone doesn't have BT, it doesn't sell. Simple as that. Most of these people already own BT sets and they don't want to give them up.

I'm not a business user - but I do like my toys, and I've grown accustomed to my BT headset and BT functionality. If it doesn't have BT - I aint buying it.

[ignar]

Now Ed....as a regular reader of PPCT's, I'm gonna have to say you didn't quite tell the whole story on this one. In spite of the poor sales in Europe, the Treo 600 has had remarkable success as a smart phone. True, it didn't have bluetooth, however the company has been working on that, which was not mentioned by you or the author/article you referenced, Guy Kewney at EWeek.

I think PalmOne *is* listening. There are reports that a new upgraded unit which includes bluetooth and an ungraded 320x320 display, along with a *smaller* footprint is already being manufactured by HTC and set for mass shipping in October/November. You can go here for the link to this article which appeared 09/13/04 at the DigiTimes site.

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20040913B3087.html

I am a dedicated PPC user like everone else here, but I also like and use a Palm. Again, I believe your statement that PalmOne isn't listening to it's costumers is a bit harsh, based on recent develoments. :wink:

I think what Ed suggested was PalmOne should have listened earlier. Maybe PalmOne *is* listening, but obviously they *were* not a year ago, and maybe they are too late.

I was a happy Treo 300 user, and had a great expectation for Treo 600. With the development of PalmOS devices then, I didn't doubt that Treo 600 would have 320x320 screen and BT. It turned out 600 had neither. I was extremely disappointed, but bought 600 nevertheless and tried to use it as my main PDA and phone. I gave up after 6 months. It's nice to hear a new Treo finally comes with both features, but you know what? I don't care any more. I'm completely settled with PocketPC and a small cell phone combo, and if I buy a convergence device, it must be based on PocketPC.

[Scott R]

Maybe palmOne was listening...to Ed!

I find it amusing that Ed is pointing out this article which bashes palmOne for not including a feature which Ed has long stated was dead or dying.

Perhaps the problem is that too many big companies are listening to Ed. Maybe palmOne scrapped including Bluetooth because Ed said it was dead. I believe that Ed has previously claimed responsibility for Microsoft's implementation of the "smart close" button as well.

Let's just hope that Ed doesn't start ranting about the uselessness of automotive air bags. ;)

Scott

[possmann]

I agree with the article as well - EU users have always been heavier and shall I say... more adept users on the whole. The US just doesn;t seem to embrace and use new and mobile technology - I just wonder what is up with our culture some times...

[griph]

I agree with the article as well - EU users have always been heavier and shall I say... more adept users on the whole. The US just doesn;t seem to embrace and use new and mobile technology - I just wonder what is up with our culture some times...

&lt;fx:Tongue in cheek> I dont like the inference that European users have always been heavier! :lol: . I agree with the BT issue though. My Keyboard, MX900, Nokia 6230, iPaq2210 and HBH60 are all Bluetooth - and I wouldn't buy a PPC or phone without it! Dang! How did we manage without it?

[bvkeen]

And apparently Microsoft doesn't think we need reliable alarms. I have both my e800 and Palm T3 with me today because I know the T3 will remind me when I have an appointment coming up. It turns out I prefer the e800 for just about all the other aspects, though, but that's just me - both platforms have a lot going for them, both have problems, and Palm and Microsoft both could do better.

THe T3 worked when I needed it to today - the e800 didn't, despite having Tweaks2k setting at 180 seconds and having CheckNotify and ClearNotify installed.

[mangochutneyman]

Europe is a very different place than the US when it comes to cell phones and, yes, bluetooth technology. They were told before they went to Europe, put bluetooth in the devices. Seeing how much of a general flop bluetooth is in the US, Palm didn't see the need. They knew better. :roll:


*Sigh* Sorry, but the author of that article, Guy Kewney, doesn't know what he's talking about, especially if he claims he was at the Treo 600 unveiling last year by Handspring, not PalmOne, b/c if he had spoken to some HS execs he would have gotten an explanation. (Note PalmOne did not exist yet at that point!) If you truely want the reason why the one-year old Treo600 did not have integrated BT at its launch last year, then you have to watch the following video of Handspring's former co-founder and CEO, Donna Dubinsky who is now on the Board of Directors of PalmOne:

http://zdnet.com.com/1601-2-5085925.html

Everyone should realize that when Handspring launched the Treo600, it was a tiny struggling company and the Treo600 was basically it's do or die product. It had to hit a home run and it had to get it right with the right mix of features and price point.

Finally, saying PalmOne doesn't listen to customers doesn't really fit fi you don't consider the the Treo 650/Ace which addresses almost all the deficiencies of the Treo600 and is slated to be released next month...

[stevew80]

Hi,

As a UK user, I also agree that a device without BT is dead in the water - almost everone you see driving in a car these days have those strange devices hanging onto one ear.

(Whilst I can stand to see it in the car, it really does look dumb when they are seen wandering around shopping malls!)

The refernece to Guy Knewley being completely off the mark is probably very correct - We brits have had to endure him for the last 20 years or so, popping up in the computer press, TV etc.. always touted as a computer 'guru' and invariably talking complete cr*p.

He's not quite a crazy and annoying as our own 'Mr Cyborg' Kevin Warwick (Google him if you want a laugh) but Mr. Knewley is not far behind....

Steve

[marlof]

the Treo 650/Ace which addresses almost all the deficiencies of the Treo600 and is slated to be released next month...

Let's hope they direct enough power to the SDIO slot to accept WiFi cards now. Before you misunderstand: I'm European, a fan of Bluetooth, and a happy Treo 600 user. I don't use BT headsets (yet another thing to charge, and I'm not that voice centric), and BT would only be nice to have the Treo behave as a modem to my BT enabled iBook. Looking forward to the first reports on the Ace/Treo 650. Thanks for the link to the video, I didn't see it before, and it's very interesting.

[mangochutneyman]

the Treo 650/Ace which addresses almost all the deficiencies of the Treo600 and is slated to be released next month...

Let's hope they direct enough power to the SDIO slot to accept WiFi cards now. Before you misunderstand: I'm European, a fan of Bluetooth, and a happy Treo 600 user. I don't use BT headsets (yet another thing to charge, and I'm not that voice centric), and BT would only be nice to have the Treo behave as a modem to my BT enabled iBook. Looking forward to the first reports on the Ace/Treo 650. Thanks for the link to the video, I didn't see it before, and it's very interesting.

Marlof, if the rumors about the GSM Treo Ace have Edge are true, do you still think you'll miss wifi? :wink:

[Fishie]

Leave it to Ed to chide Handspring for not including a feature which he himself claimed to be DEAD several times in the past.

Funny thing this, a lot of poeople buy features, things they will never use but want in their cellphone annyway just so they can brag.

A friend of mine is waiting and has on pre order a new Sony/ericson phone that will have 2 camera´s, one facing the user and one facing outward.
Thing is, he uses pre paid cards, has no data plan and Belgium has no 3G coverage yet.
His current phone is a Sony/Ericson flip phone he bought for 399€ four months ago, one of the reasons he stated for getting it was bluetooth.
My friend doesnt have a single bluetooth device, he doesnt have a PC to sync the phone with(his internet acces consists of the PC he uses at work a PC for him is not worth wasting money on for personal use), doesnt use any of the phone´s PIM capabilities, doesnt use it to take notes(he uses post its which he always loses)very rarely takes pics etcetera etcetera.
He got the phone becouse its a Sony/Ericson, has a camera, has bluetooth, a calendar and agenda, note taking capabilities etcetera etcetera, in short its got a nice enough list of FEATURES, FEATURES he rarely if ever uses but FEATURES nontheless.
He can shopw its FEATURES of to others and show his final fantasy background and Matrix scrolling binary screensaver and thats about it.

My friend is the average consumer over here.

Oh BTW he has a Dell Axim which I got him trough Ebay cheap about a year ago.
He wants a VGA PPC ever since I showed him the E800 but wont get one unless its from Dell.

[marlof]

Marlof, if the rumors about the GSM Treo Ace have Edge are true, do you still think you'll miss wifi? :wink:

I do have a WiFi network where I have no data limits. I currently can't get a flat rate price plan on any of my mobile connections. So yes, I'll miss WiFi.

[nuka_t]

And Microsoft thinks we don't need the Close Button

Maybe I just need to give up my own opinions and accept what the companies tell me that I need and want and become a techie zombie

:cry:

use linux :mrgreen:

i can wait for xandros for ppc. then i can ditch windoze for good.

[lol999]

Maybe palmOne was listening...to Ed!

I find it amusing that Ed is pointing out this article which bashes palmOne for not including a feature which Ed has long stated was dead or dying.

Perhaps the problem is that too many big companies are listening to Ed. Maybe palmOne scrapped including Bluetooth because Ed said it was dead. I believe that Ed has previously claimed responsibility for Microsoft's implementation of the "smart close" button as well.

Let's just hope that Ed doesn't start ranting about the uselessness of automotive air bags. ;)

Scott

OUCH!!! I fell on the floor in laughter after reading this one. One of the best slams I've ever read....because it's all true.

Ed, please take your foot out of your mouth before responding. That way we'll be able to understand you better when you dig your hole a little deeper. :lol:

[marlof]

One of the best slams I've ever read....because it's all true.

First of all: you created a user account, just to state that? Man, you really needed to get that of your chest, now didn't you?

Next: I think the comments of "Ed stating not implementing Bluetooth is a fault is really funny" are a bit shortsighted. I mean we can all see on this site that Ed doesn't like the way Bluetooth is currently implemented. And I -as a firm believer in Bluetooth possibilities- can see where he's coming from: I also don't like the way that it depends on the factory installed protocols if I can connect one Bluetooth peripheral to the other. Imagine it would be possible to bring out USB devices, that can connect to Dell computers, but can't connect to Sony computers, cause Sony didn't install all possible USB options. That's the current state of Bluetooth, and frankly, that sucks. And I think that's Ed's point. Not that no-one should ever use Bluetooth.

Finally: if someone personally feels a technology is seriously flawed, but it is well known that the market in one part of the world really wants that technology, do you think that if he had control over the specs of a new device for that market, he wouldn't advise to still use that technology? I think he might have stated to provide it with the best possible drivers, and the widest range of peripheral support, to give it the best possible end user experience, but that's about it.

So, I really had to get *that* of my chest.

[Scott R]

Next: I think the comments of "Ed stating not implementing Bluetooth is a fault is really funny" are a bit shortsighted. I mean we can all see on this site that Ed doesn't like the way Bluetooth is currently implemented. And I -as a firm believer in Bluetooth possibilities- can see where he's coming from: I also don't like the way that it depends on the factory installed protocols if I can connect one Bluetooth peripheral to the other. Imagine it would be possible to bring out USB devices, that can connect to Dell computers, but can't connect to Sony computers, cause Sony didn't install all possible USB options. That's the current state of Bluetooth, and frankly, that sucks. And I think that's Ed's point. Not that no-one should ever use Bluetooth.I agree that pairing two Bluetooth devices is often more complicated than it ought to be. But, really, what do you think that Ed's depiction of the Bluetooth grave marker on his front-page articles is meant to convey? Of course, knowing Ed as I think I do, I personally don't think that he posts those stories because he personally thinks that Bluetooth is dead or should die. Rather, he knows that saying that it's a dead technology gets a rise out of people, and that's why he does it. :)

Scott

[Ed Hansberry]

Of course, knowing Ed as I think I do, I personally don't think that he posts those stories because he personally thinks that Bluetooth is dead or should die. Rather, he knows that saying that it's a dead technology gets a rise out of people, and that's why he does it. :)
Let me the the authoritative source to say, you don't know me at all, or evidentially my real thoughts on Bluetooth. You only think you do, which is not surprising. Palm thinks they know their customers and their needs better than their customers, so their leading apologist would certainly make similar claims about others. :|

[Fishie]

Ed am I a palm apologinist?

Just wondering.

[marlof]

I agree that pairing two Bluetooth devices is often more complicated than it ought to be.

If you can connect them pairing can sometimes be hard. As can keeping paired devices connected be (initial iPAQ ROMs kept losing GPS signal because of this). Sometimes, you get to buy a nice Bluetooth enabled phone, and you can't use certain types of Bluetooth headsets, cause where one will only accept the Headset profile, the other will ony collect over the Handsfree profile. Or you do have a Bluetooth enabled Smartphone, and you do have a Bluetooth enabled Pocket PC, but you can't use the Smartphone as a modem to the Pocket PC over Bluetooth, and have to fall back on IR. Although I really love Bluetooth when it works, some parts of the concept are simply maddening. OTOH: I've never had one problem with the implementation of Bluetooth in my Sony Ericsson phones. But just the label "Bluetooth" doesn't mean that setting it up is going to be easy, and that worries me.

But, really, what do you think that Ed's depiction of the Bluetooth grave marker on his front-page articles is meant to convey?

I have never talked to Ed about it, but my take (and I don't want to imply that I know Ed better than you do, after all I've only seen him several times in real life during long day sessions, exchanged some private info with him in the past few years, and with Ed I am part of some teams that regularly discuss many things) would be that he's trying to bring across the message that if things don't improve, Bluetooth will be a dead end street. If things do change, and Bluetooth will be easy to use, I'm pretty sure Ed will be the first to say it's a great way to connect devices. But things haven't improved all that much yet. I know noone in his right mind who is happy with all aspects of Bluetooth. I just know people that still believe it will be ok and live with workarounds if they run into glitches (like me), and people who (at least for now) have given up on the technology.

[Ed Hansberry]

Ed am I a palm apologinist?

Just wondering.
Dunno. Not sure what an "apologinist" is. :wink:

[Fishie]

Hahaha.

Fact remains you do take every opportunity to blast Bluetooth AND Palm, and now when Palm has not included a feature you seem to dislike you blast em for not having included it in the first place.

In any case, no one seems to understand the point I was trying to make.
Even with bluetooth the Treo 600 would have had no chance whatsoever here.
Nokia is too much ingrained in the bussuines markets over here and consumers are stupid(thats putting it mildly) and go for brands and FEATURES they will never use.