Compact Flash slots - spawn of Satan, or useful tool?

[SeanH]

This looks like a great PDA but these are the perfect spec’s for me

CPU – Intel PXA270 running at 620MHz
Memory – 128MB of SDRAM, 64MB of ROM
Display – 3.7” or 4” VGA (480x640)
Size – The size of the 4150 or smaller
Expansion – 1 SDIO/MMC slot
Communication – Bluetooth and WiFi
OS – Pocket PC 2003 SE

CF is dead it should not be in new PDA’s, it adds bulk. MMC/SDIO cards are faster then CF cards.

I am all for getting rid of USB completely in PDA’s. You can do everything with the built in Bluetooth and WiFi. The only connector should be for power.

There are not any main stream peripherals that need more speed then Bluetooth can offer besides WiFi and that would be built in. There are always people that want to hang an external HD, CD-ROM or a VGA to there PDA. I feel that 99.9999% of the people buy a PDA because it’s compact and easy to carry. If you need a VGA connector and an external HD buy a laptop with built in Firewire and USB 2.0.

For people that need GSM/GPRS they can use a Bluetooth link to there cell phone.

Sean

[Fishie]

Let me ask you, how many SLR camera´s do you know that use SD cards?
How many SD LAN cards are you aware of?
How about SD modem cards?
SD barcode scanners?
SD surface scanners?
SD endoscopes?

Etcetera etcetera.

CF is dead you say?

[Phoenix]

...CF is dead it should not be in new PDA’s, it adds bulk. MMC/SDIO cards are faster then CF cards.

Although I would prefer two SD slots in any PPC device myself, I have to concede to the fact that CF isn't dead. Although I don't use it, some people really need to and do. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the CF format has a faster transfer rate than SD/MMC.


...For people that need GSM/GPRS they can use a Bluetooth link to there cell phone.

Ulchh! Not for me. I want it built in, Baby, yeeeaahh!

[Janak Parekh]

There are not any main stream peripherals that need more speed then Bluetooth can offer besides WiFi and that would be built in. There are always people that want to hang an external HD, CD-ROM or a VGA to there PDA. I feel that 99.9999% of the people buy a PDA because it’s compact and easy to carry. If you need a VGA connector and an external HD buy a laptop with built in Firewire and USB 2.0.
As with the sleeve thread -- please don't make such assertions unless you have some specific numerical data to back it up.

As I've hinted before, PDAs are being used for research and industrial applications. Unlike laptops which have hard drives and are bulkier and generally more difficult to administer, PDAs sometimes fit the bill perfectly. Just because a majority of the public doesn't need this functionality does not mean they shouldn't exist. Fine, build small devices, but allow for some variety!

By your logic, a majority of the public doesn't need fast processors, or VGA, or so much memory. Why aren't the only devices being manufactured old Palms?

--janak

[Marcel_Proust]

This looks like a great PDA but these are the perfect spec’s for me

CPU – Intel PXA270 running at 620MHz
Memory – 128MB of SDRAM, 64MB of ROM
Display – 3.7” or 4” VGA (480x640)
Size – The size of the 4150 or smaller
Expansion – 1 SDIO/MMC slot
Communication – Bluetooth and WiFi
OS – Pocket PC 2003 SE

CF is dead it should not be in new PDA’s, it adds bulk. MMC/SDIO cards are faster then CF cards.

I am all for getting rid of USB completely in PDA’s. You can do everything with the built in Bluetooth and WiFi. The only connector should be for power.

There are not any main stream peripherals that need more speed then Bluetooth can offer besides WiFi and that would be built in. There are always people that want to hang an external HD, CD-ROM or a VGA to there PDA. I feel that 99.9999% of the people buy a PDA because it’s compact and easy to carry. If you need a VGA connector and an external HD buy a laptop with built in Firewire and USB 2.0.

For people that need GSM/GPRS they can use a Bluetooth link to there cell phone.

Sean

CF isn't dead yet, but if it might I suppose.
But you're wrong about it being slower than MMC/SDIO, it's actually much faster.

[SeanH]

CF isn't dead yet, but if it might I suppose.
But you're wrong about it being slower than MMC/SDIO, it's actually much faster.
This MMC card is faster then any CF card shipping today.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0405/04053101pretecmmc4.asp

Sean

[SeanH]

Let me ask you, how many SLR camera´s do you know that use SD cards?
How many SD LAN cards are you aware of?
How about SD modem cards?
SD barcode scanners?
SD surface scanners?
SD endoscopes?

Etcetera etcetera.

CF is dead you say?
Cannon is shipping many camera's with MMC/SD cards now. SLR camera's will start shiping soon that support MMC/SD.

You do not need a SD LAN card if your PDA has it built in

Bluetooth can be used for a modem card. Bluetooth is 720Kb modems are only 56Kb

There are many Bluetooth barcode scanners shipping today.

I do not know what a surface scanner is but I am sure it can be addressed by Bluetooth. If it’s a specialized application maybe a embedded Windows CE design might be a better fit.

A Bluetooth endoscopes makes more sense then a CF or SD type because it can be used by many devices with Bluetooth. A camera with Bluetooth can use a wireless link to an endoscopes and a remote flash.

Sean

[Fishie]

Cannon is shipping many camera's with MMC/SD cards now. SLR camera's will start shiping soon that support MMC/SD:
We are not talking about Digicams here, we are talking about Digital SLR cameras, they may be COMING, which means that they are NOT here yet.
So your logic now seems to be hey those cameras will come eventually so screw the people who already have one and want a PDA to interact it with.

You do not need a SD LAN card if your PDA has it built in : IC, and how many PDA´s have LAN capabilities built in(not wireless, this isnt about wifi), how about NONE WHATSOEVER?

Bluetooth can be used for a modem card. Bluetooth is 720Kb modems are only 56Kb: Which means you need another machine altogether to connect, how about places where the landline is your only connection, a hotel phone out in the boonies when travelling for instance?
Regardles of those have you seen the costs associated with CDMA/GPRS connections if you want to use a cellphone with bleutooth for data compared to a landline?
And disregarding even that, in a lot of places in the world bleutooth is simply not an for wireless data collecting.

Bleutooth while nice is too slow, not secure enough and most definitly lacks market penetration and accesability for the things you claim it to be a solution for.

[Fishie]

Oh BTW even Sony is including CF support in some of their products becouse they know its just that important and would bleed even more market share if they didnt: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydscf828/

[SeanH]

We are not talking about Digicams here, we are talking about Digital SLR cameras, they may be COMING, which means that they are NOT here yet.
So your logic now seems to be hey those cameras will come eventually so screw the people who already have one and want a PDA to interact it with.
What do you mean by interact? Do you mean viewing 6-12 Mega Pixel images on a PPC with 128MB of memory? All digital SLR camera’s have LCD displays on them to view the images. I am sure in the near future you will see Bluetooth in Cameras as I mentioned earlier. This will let you use wireless Flashes and endoscopes as well as viewing images on the camera memory card with out removing the card. With an intelligent SLR camera it can send resized images to the PDA over Bluetooth using the file browse profile so they can be view on the sub 1 Mega Pixel display that a PDA has.

Bluetooth can be used for a modem card. Bluetooth is 720Kb modems are only 56Kb: Which means you need another machine altogether to connect, how about places where the landline is your only connection, a hotel phone out in the boonies when travelling for instance?
You area prime example of a person that does not understand what Bluetooth is. Bluetooth’s goal is to remove the wires for common peripherals. So instead buying a CF 56Kb modem for your PC with a big block on the top to plug the RJ-11 phone jack in it you use Bluetooth to communicate you a small box that plugs into the wall. The box is a standard 56Kb modem that sends the data to the PDA as if you were using a serial cable. This lets you get on-line using a land line but walk around the room with out wires. Go to google and enter Bluetooth 56Kb Modem you will find over 15 in production now.

You do not need a SD LAN card if your PDA has it built in : IC, and how many PDA´s have LAN capabilities built in(not wireless, this isnt about wifi), how about NONE WHATSOEVER?
You will never see a SDIO 10/100 card. The RJ-45 connector is larger then a SDIO card. What is your problem with WiFi? WiFi is very popular and work well. It’s been a long time since I have had to plug my laptop into a LAN. I have WiFi at home, at work, and at almost every Hotel I stay at its free or for $10 a day.

And disregarding even that, in a lot of places in the world bleutooth is simply not an for wireless data collecting.
What is data collecting? Were do you buy these data collecting CF cards? What software supports data collecting CF cards? I work with a lot of customers that build data acquisition systems. Some use PXA250’s and Windows CE but they are embedded designs.

Bleutooth while nice is too slow, not secure enough and most definitly lacks market penetration and accesability for the things you claim it to be a solution for.
Based on your modem post you do not understand what Bluetooth is. Name a mainstream peripheral that Bluetooth is to slow for. Assuming your PDA has built in WiFi.

Sean

[Fishie]

When I want to add comentary to a 12mb picture I took with a SLR bleutooth just does not cut it, its too slow and it would mean I need another memory card in my PDA, its FASTER to remove it, put the CF in my PDA do whatever I need to and stick it back in my camera.

You deliberatly miss my point about needing extra hardware AGAIN when talking about bleutooth.

Regardles if its a cellphone or a bleutooth landline modem YOU NEED EXTRA HARDWARE that is NOT small most likely needs another powersource/adaptor and is just extra deathweight while travelling.

My PDA has WiFi built in, I STIL need a LAN card for a lot of places as get this THE MAJORITY OF THIS WORLD IS NOT COVERED WITH HOT SPOTS AND THERE ARE PLACES AND OFFICES WHO USE WIRED LAN FOR SECURITY REASONS OR BECOUSE THEY DONT WANT TO INVEST IN WIFI YET.
I personaly LOVE WiFi and use it as much as I can, reality remains that a lot of places have no WiFi coverage whatsoever.

The data collecting I meant is checking email and internet on the road with a CDMA or GPRS connection.
The bandwith is just way too expensive to do it with a cellphone/pda combo.

Quote: Based on your modem post you do not understand what Bluetooth is. Name a mainstream peripheral that Bluetooth is to slow for. Assuming your PDA has built in WiFi.

I did at the start of this post, the adding comment to a picture bit for instance.


And again if CF is DEAD why is Sony forced to add Compact Flash support to its more demanding products these days?

[Turner]

There are three reasons why compactflash still has a legitimate right to exist:

1: the market share: there are many people out there having already CF flash memory and they do not want to throw it away.

2: the price: CF is noticeable cheaper than any other flash memory and will be for some time, especially compared with SD.

3: the complexity: of course you can add almost any device with bluetooth, but every BT device needs a dedicated power supply and the radio components, which makes them more expensive and bigger than CF based devices.

Just my 2.5 cents.

so long
Turner

[Fishie]

Yah those too.

[SeanH]

1: the market share: there are many people out there having already CF flash memory and they do not want to throw it away.

2: the price: CF is noticeable cheaper than any other flash memory and will be for some time, especially compared with SD.
When I bought my first PPC I owned a few PCMCIA memory cards from my laptop. I had the choice to buy a new CF card to keep my PDA small or use the big sleeve and the PCMCIA card. Back then CF cards cost a lot more then PCMCIA memory cards. That was four years ago. Today in my option it makes more sense to use SDIO for storage. The prices will continue to drop and the densities will continue to grow as they did with the bulky PCMCIA card, then the CF card.

3: the complexity: of course you can add almost any device with bluetooth, but every BT device needs a dedicated power supply and the radio components, which makes them more expensive and bigger than CF based devices.
A lot of the Bluetooth devices out there use the same type of power supply your PDA uses when on the road it’s called a battery. Here is an example of a 56K modem http://www.socketcom.com/product/CM7100-510.asp
That device runs off a rechargeable battery like your PDA would. Bluetooth might cost a tad more but you are paying for the convenience of the device. We all had the choice to buy a PDA or use a paper planer for contacts and appointments. Most people in this forum paid more money for the convenience of using a PDA.

Sean

[Janak Parekh]

The prices will continue to drop and the densities will continue to grow as they did with the bulky PCMCIA card, then the CF card.
Perhaps, but they're not at the point where the switchover has happened. Besides, SD's formfactor is so miniaturized that I don't see new RAM packaging being cheaper for SD than CF. Certainly not for the next few years.

A lot of the Bluetooth devices out there use the same type of power supply your PDA uses when on the road it’s called a battery.
Yeah - and that actually increases bulk and hassle. Besides, the Bluetooth 56K modems still don't answer the questions of a wired LAN card - which is a legitimate point - and the last thing I'd want to do is to carry a Bluetooth Access Point.

Bluetooth might cost a tad more but you are paying for the convenience of the device.
In some of these applications, Bluetooth is actually inconvenient than having all the functionality integrated into a CF slot. I don't want to remember to have to recharge yet another battery - I carry five rechargeable items every day as it is.

We all had the choice to buy a PDA or use a paper planer for contacts and appointments. Most people in this forum paid more money for the convenience of using a PDA.
Why are you making the fundamental assumption that CF is inconvenient? It isn't for a lot of people, and if they're willing to put up with a little more thickness for it, why not? I know you'll never buy one, but that doesn't speak for everyone else...

--janak

[SeanH]

I sat through a presentation yesterday from a manufacture of NAND Flash. They showed 16GB die for SDIO targeted for Q1 05. The cross over will happen very fast.

The solution for Wired LAN is to use WiFi instead. It has been a long time since I had to plug my laptop into wired Ethernet net. I have WiFi at home, at work and at most of the Hotels I stay at. If I had the problem were my only choice was to use wired Ethernet I would purchase a $10 WiFi AP when it is on sale and connect using the built in WiFi in the PDA.

Sean

[Janak Parekh]

I sat through a presentation yesterday from a manufacture of NAND Flash. They showed 16GB die for SDIO targeted for Q1 05. The cross over will happen very fast.
A "die" does not mean consumer products. We're talking at least 1-2 years. That said, products are evolving: CF is slowly becoming a minority on Pocket PCs - which is fine! It doesn't mean there is something wrong with having some units with CF support.

The solution for Wired LAN is to use WiFi instead.
No, it is not. There are corporate environments where WiFi is forbidden -- and it's much more common than you think. My previous job was at a company that, among other things, developed a firewall product. They were extremely slow about deploying WiFi.

--janak

[SeanH]

A "die" does not mean consumer products. We're talking at least 1-2 years.
I work with semiconductors for a living. Die is cut from an 8” or 12” wafer and packaged in ether a standard packages like TSOP or BGA or its placed on a substrate and covered with epoxy. A SDIO/MMC card uses die. If you open a calculator or a watch you will see a gob of epoxy. Under that epoxy is the microcontroller in die form. The die size of Flash is a lot larger then the small microcontroller you would find in a calculator. When 16GB NAND Flash is released it will be packaged at the same time. This is a good article that explains how die is packaged from Intel. http://www.intel.com/research/silicon/mobilepackaging.htm

No, it is not. There are corporate environments where WiFi is forbidden -- and it's much more common than you think. My previous job was at a company that, among other things, developed a firewall product. They were extremely slow about deploying WiFi.

I know that’s true. Maybe in that case a Bluetooth AP might work better. With time companies like that will upgrade there IT people with people that understand how to make it secure.

Sean

[Janak Parekh]

I work with semiconductors for a living. Die is cut from an 8” or 12” wafer and packaged in ether a standard packages like TSOP or BGA or its placed on a substrate and covered with epoxy.
No, you misunderstand my point - I know what a die is - but just because the die will be produced doesn't mean the channel will fill up overnight. It generally takes months in my experience.

--janak

[Yo-DUH_87]

To be quite honest, one of the reasons I am even considering the ASUS a730 is because of the dual cf/sd slots (I can do without SD, but I must have CF).

My digital camera uses CF, which is kind of hard to fit in a pda which only takes SD :p

Compact flash allows for a multitude of acessorys that are not yet avalible in the sdio form, and it's cheap storage ;)

I am curious as to when exactaly they are releasing the wi-fi version, but I guess I will just have to wait some more.

[SWKS_tech]

....and a compact flash slot.....there is just too much inexpensive expandability in that form factor...for example, there aren't ANY cdma or gsm phone cards in SD... :(

128 Megs, Dual wireless, CF, SDIO, FM (why not?!), a FEW audio inputs and output...lets make it a mxer too...

A tighter, cleaner screen is going to be easier on your eyes and a better value in the long run, but I think I'll stick with the same screen they're using in everything else for now...

in the dark, it ALL looks good... :)

[SWKS_tech]

and one more thing...you weeners get over the CF/SD/MMC/WIFI argument...different folks need and want and indeed expect different things from their tools....

wifi is great for troubleshooting systems while I'm in staff meetings....using VNC for pocket PC or terminal services client....

bluetooth is an absolute ESSENTIAL for convenient syncs...(you can sync up using ANY type of memory card, sillies)

Should we do away with the silly old fashioned usb connector for the cradle? They're just so big...(get the point?)

Some CF is designed to be very fast...some very nice cameras use CF...some still very expensive ones use MMC or SD....

I love BT, but wouldn't want to download my whole 512 megs worth of images accross it....

I want it all, in one device, wether I'm going to use it or not....

ok, well, maybe not a PC card.... :)

[SeanH]

....and a compact flash slot.....there is just too much inexpensive expandability in that form factor...for example, there aren't ANY cdma or gsm phone cards in SD... :(
If you are going to pay $600 to $700 for a new PDA you can upgrade your few CF peripherals to Bluetooth. SD/MMC can be used for peripherals but Bluetooth makes a lot more sense. You can buy a PPC phone edition with GPS/GPRS or a phone with Bluetooth and GSM/GPRS and use Bluetooth to connect your PPC to the net. I still think the PPC Phone edition units are to big and prefer to carry a really small phone and a separate PDA. My perfect configuration would be my current GPS/GPRS phone with Bluetooth (Nokia 6820) that I can keep in my pocket all the time. And a really small PDA (4150 size or smaller) with a 624MHz PXA270, 128MB or RAM, 64+ ROM, 4” VGA, WiFi, and BT. No CF you can not fit it in the form factor and there is no need for CF with BT. I would carry that unit with me 80% of the time. If I needed to get on the net I would use the GPS/GPRS EDGE connection in the phone to connect at 200Kb from just about anywhere. Here is a pic of my current config. (The second post)

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=26729&start=30

I will upgrade the PDA when one comes out with those features. All those feature are shipping in different PDA’s today. I wish someone would combine them all to create the perfect PDA.

Sean

[Yo-DUH_87]

I actually want cf on any pda I buy, simply because my cameras use it. It is also a fairly inexpencive storage medium, I could add 2.2gb to my pda pretty quickly ;)

If you don't think you need it, don't use it, but don't make the rest of us suffer :p

[SeanH]

I actually want cf on any pda I buy, simply because my cameras use it. It is also a fairly inexpencive storage medium, I could add 2.2gb to my pda pretty quickly ;)

If you don't think you need it, don't use it, but don't make the rest of us suffer :p
I have posted this many times. What is the difference in viewing an image on a 3” display on a camera compared to a 4” on a PDA? I would prefer to shrink all the 6 MEGA pixel images down to 320x240 on the PC so they do not take 4 minutes to load on PDA and that allows you to put thousands on a SD card.

Sean

[Janak Parekh]

I have posted this many times. What is the difference in viewing an image on a 3” display on a camera compared to a 4” on a PDA?
Try viewing a picture on a 480x640 display before you say this. Words can't do it justice. And it doesn't take 4 minutes to load...

--janak

[Yo-DUH_87]

I have posted this many times. What is the difference in viewing an image on a 3” display on a camera compared to a 4” on a PDA? I would prefer to shrink all the 6 MEGA pixel images down to 320x240 on the PC so they do not take 4 minutes to load on PDA and that allows you to put thousands on a SD card.

Sean

Good point there, but seeing as a 4" pda screen has so much more surface area than my camera's screen (640x480 vs the 122x100 display on the camera) it still is an improvement when you are out and about away from the pc.

Plus, for the sake of argument, if you were on vacation and ran out of room on your camera's cf card, you could transfer some photos to your pda's memory / an sd card.

[Kati Compton]

I have posted this many times. What is the difference in viewing an image on a 3” display on a camera compared to a 4” on a PDA? I would prefer to shrink all the 6 MEGA pixel images down to 320x240 on the PC so they do not take 4 minutes to load on PDA and that allows you to put thousands on a SD card.
And my camera screen is like 2.5". And it's not as viewable in sunlight. And maybe I want to see my pics before I get back to my laptop (I'm NOT going to take my laptop with me sight-seeing).

I know CF really bothers you, and you really want to convince other people that they don't need it, but I just don't think it's going to work at the moment.

[Kati Compton]

I know that’s true. Maybe in that case a Bluetooth AP might work better. With time companies like that will upgrade there IT people with people that understand how to make it secure. AFAIK there's quite a few companies that do not permit APs of any sort connecting to their network.

You keep talking about how you think things WILL be, and use that as justification for saying that no devices should have CF and no one should use it or want to use it NOW.

Also, if you have the money to get the size card you want in SD, that's great for you. Personally, I want all the storage I can get for my dollar, and right now, that means CF. If I was willing to spend the extra premium to get the same storage in SD, I'd spend that money getting an *even bigger* CF card.

I really don't see why it's such a critical mission for you to convince people that they shouldn't do what *they* want to do with their PDAs in the way that *they* want to. Many people have given you reasons why they prefer CF over SD, or dual slots, or whatever -- and you don't seem to be successful in convincing them that they are "wrong".

[Yo-DUH_87]

http://www.mwave.com/mwave/skusearch.hmx?SCriteria=AA26870

I really want one of these once I get my pda (if only the darn loox 720 would be avalible...) ;)

That should be able to hold just a few apps and mp3s :D

[SeanH]

I know CF really bothers you, and you really want to convince other people that they don't need it, but I just don't think it's going to work at the moment.
I had the same argument with PCMCIA and CF card in 2000 when I bought my iPAQ. People posted that PCMCIA will never die and it will always be cheaper then CF. They said you can always fit more memory in a PCMCIA card then a CF because of its size. That is still true, you can buy a 5GB+ PCMCIA cards but for some odd reason they are not used in PDA’s. For some odd reason I have not seen a cell phone in the last 2 years that will accept a CF card. Maybe the future is to move to smaller and faster devices. Some people have a lot of money and will pay $600 to $700 for a new PDA every year. My Palm Pro lasted me 5 years from 1995 to 2000 and my iPAQ was great from 2000 to 2004. I predict in the next 12 months SD/MMC will be lower in price then a CF card at the same density. Why buy a new huge PDA that will be out dated in 12 months because all the new ones will have only one SD/MMC slot and use BT for everything else?

Sean

[SeanH]

http://www.mwave.com/mwave/skusearch.hmx?SCriteria=AA26870

I really want one of these once I get my pda (if only the darn loox 720 would be avalible...) ;)

That should be able to hold just a few apps and mp3s :D
I have had a 1GB Microdrive for the last 4 years and kept it at 90% of being full over time. My goal is to get a PDA that no longer uses that huge CF card for something like this http://www.dpreview.com/news/0405/04053101pretecmmc4.asp
It’s not at 2.2GB but in the next 6 months I am sure there will be one at 2.2GB and beyond.

Sean

[Yo-DUH_87]

I have had a 1GB Microdrive for the last 4 years and kept it at 90% of being full over time. My goal is to get a PDA that no longer uses that huge CF card for something like this http://www.dpreview.com/news/0405/04053101pretecmmc4.asp
It’s not at 2.2GB but in the next 6 months I am sure there will be one at 2.2GB and beyond.

Sean

Um, there are a lot larger cf cards than the 2.2 gig card I linked above (there is a link on the same site you linked to advertising a 16gb cf card), but the point of that link was the 2.2gig cf card is affordable for what it offers. Last time I looked, sd memory was incredibly expencive in comparison.

I admit that compact flash won't last forever, but it's time is not over yet. So shut up and enjoy ;)

[SeanH]

I really don't see why it's such a critical mission for you to convince people that they shouldn't do what *they* want to do with their PDAs in the way that *they* want to. Many people have given you reasons why they prefer CF over SD, or dual slots, or whatever -- and you don't seem to be successful in convincing them that they are "wrong".
A lot of companies from 1994-2000 refused to allow internet access in their building. They claimed the internet would never take off. Do you have the same beliefs and views? Do you really think CF will be for the next 5-10 years? PCMCIA memory cards did not last 5 years. I predict things like AGP is dead, Rapid I/O is dead but PCI express will grow.

Sean

[Wiggster]

I know CF really bothers you, and you really want to convince other people that they don't need it, but I just don't think it's going to work at the moment.
I had the same argument with PCMCIA and CF card in 2000 when I bought my iPAQ. People posted that PCMCIA will never die and it will always be cheaper then CF. They said you can always fit more memory in a PCMCIA card then a CF because of its size. That is still true, you can buy a 5GB+ PCMCIA cards but for some odd reason they are not used in PDA’s. For some odd reason I have not seen a cell phone in the last 2 years that will accept a CF card. Maybe the future is to move to smaller and faster devices. Some people have a lot of money and will pay $600 to $700 for a new PDA every year. My Palm Pro lasted me 5 years from 1995 to 2000 and my iPAQ was great from 2000 to 2004. I predict in the next 12 months SD/MMC will be lower in price then a CF card at the same density. Why buy a new huge PDA that will be out dated in 12 months because all the new ones will have only one SD/MMC slot and use BT for everything else?

Sean


A lot of companies from 1994-2000 refused to allow internet access in their building. They claimed the internet would never take off. Do you have the same beliefs and views? Do you really think CF will be for the next 5-10 years? PCMCIA memory cards did not last 5 years. I predict things like AGP is dead, Rapid I/O is dead but PCI express will grow.

Sean

I've been biting my tongue to keep from replying to your almost incindeiry comments, but...

Past performance is no indication of future results. You can quote as many naysayers of technology that took off and tons of proponents of failed solutions, but you're just doing that to try and undercut someone else's argument without addressing what they're really saying. You're arguing against people's opinions and wants, which is a futile exercise.

I don't know of anyone here who has said anything to the effect of "CF is the best there is now and has been the best for years and will continue being the best for quite some time into the future," yet you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time debunking the future of CF. A PDA is a rather transient device-- people are saying they want a CF-enabled device because they want CF NOW, because it's available NOW and it's rather inexpensive RIGHT NOW. People want it NOW because they already HAVE accessories. The reason to buy a PDA that will be outclassed in 12 months is that you will have that PDA for those 12 months and beyond.

Also, your idea that buying a dual-slot device is inane since the market is shifting to SD is rather obsequious in and of itself; the CF provides support for the passing CF devices many people have or can buy for cheap, and the SD offers the next generation which you're predicting will be the next big thing. So what's the problem there?

[Jereboam]

I really don't see why it's such a critical mission for you to convince people that they shouldn't do what *they* want to do with their PDAs in the way that *they* want to. Many people have given you reasons why they prefer CF over SD, or dual slots, or whatever -- and you don't seem to be successful in convincing them that they are "wrong".

A lot of companies from 1994-2000 refused to allow internet access in their building. They claimed the internet would never take off. Do you have the same beliefs and views? Do you really think CF will be for the next 5-10 years? PCMCIA memory cards did not last 5 years. I predict things like AGP is dead, Rapid I/O is dead but PCI express will grow.

Sean

Yawn. Whatever - who are you - Nostradamus?!

[debate mode]

Your comments are fundamentally flawed - you are arguing for technological advance and that the obsolesence of current products and standards is a reason not to acquire something that someone needs and uses at this moment in time.

The logic is specious. Of course CF is larger than more recent equivalents such as SD/MMC cards and their even smaller brethren that are now emerging. Of course it therefore follows that adding a CF slot adds bulk to a device, which is undesirable. Of course there are many analagous products which use Bluetooth.

However -

You have simply shrugged off, in your infinite wisdom, every single good and valid reason that people have taken the time to supply you with as if they are all a bunch of monkeys.

[/debate mode]

If you want to debate, do it. If you want to insult people, I would not be alone clearly, in saying that you might do better to hold your tongue.

Cheers then.

J'bm

[Kati Compton]

I had the same argument with PCMCIA and CF card in 2000 when I bought my iPAQ. People posted that PCMCIA will never die and it will always be cheaper then CF.
Ah! That's the problem. You're reading the wrong threads. You see, HERE no one is saying that CF will "always" be cheaper than SD! People are only saying that FOR NOW it is.

I have not seen a cell phone in the last 2 years that will accept a CF card.
Well, no one is willing to accept the bulk in a cell phone-only device. However, clearly some people ARE willing to accept the bulk in a PDA (FOR NOW) in order to do what they want to do RIGHT NOW.

Maybe the future is to move to smaller and faster devices.
Yes. It is. But that is the future, and I want to buy a new pda NOW.

Some people have a lot of money and will pay $600 to $700 for a new PDA every year.
Yes - not me. I'm still using my Axim X5 that I bought in Nov. of 2002.

I predict in the next 12 months SD/MMC will be lower in price then a CF card at the same density. Why buy a new huge PDA that will be out dated in 12 months because all the new ones will have only one SD/MMC slot and use BT for everything else?
Because buying any new PDA it's "outdated" one way or another in about 6 months at most - SOMETHING smaller, faster, etc ALWAYS comes out. However, that doesn't mean that everyone is always unhappy with their PDAs in 6 months. A lot of people still like theirs after that time frame. And what feels "outdated" to YOU may not feel "outdated" to THEM.

I really don't see why it's such a critical mission for you to convince people that they shouldn't do what *they* want to do with their PDAs in the way that *they* want to. Many people have given you reasons why they prefer CF over SD, or dual slots, or whatever -- and you don't seem to be successful in convincing them that they are "wrong".
A lot of companies from 1994-2000 refused to allow internet access in their building. They claimed the internet would never take off. Do you have the same beliefs and views? Do you really think CF will be for the next 5-10 years? PCMCIA memory cards did not last 5 years. I predict things like AGP is dead, Rapid I/O is dead but PCI express will grow.
If you actually read my posts, I said that CF is cheaper per meg NOW, and that I, personally, will be happy to have an SD-only (but probably still dual-slot) device when:

1. SD cards are the same price or cheaper per meg, or cheap enough (for me) to not worry about the price differential. (NOT YET TRUE).

2. I have a camera that uses SD. (NOT YET TRUE, but probably will be my next camera).

Other people have broader requirements, like having VGA-out, wired ethernet, etc through other means than CF.

You mistake me saying that I find CF useful NOW as me saying that I will in 10 years. I don't know what I will find useful in 10 years, but it's quite possible I won't have any CF cards at that point.

However, that doesn't mean I can't want CF in my next PPC! I'm not going to give up the best solution for me in the NOW waiting for your solution in the FUTURE.

[SeanH]

I hope these post stick around for one or more years. I had the same argument with PCMCIA cards in the year 2000. Now people think it’s absurd to put a PCMCIA slot in a PDA because of size. I am sure in 2006 people will think the same of CF.

Sean

[Kati Compton]

I give up. :bangin: :drinking: :frusty:

Not my point of view, of course, but the hope that you will realize the difference between what people want NOW vs. what they will want in the FUTURE.

[Wiggster]

I hope these post stick around for one or more years. I had the same argument with PCMCIA cards in the year 2000. Now people think it’s absurd to put a PCMCIA slot in a PDA because of size. I am sure in 2006 people will think the same of CF.

Sean


Since you can't seem to understand any of the posts made, let me clarify it a little.

It is not the year 2006. Your arguments of future obsolecence is off topic and no one is contesting that. If you wish to keep making the argument that CF will not outlast fossil fuel in terms of longevity, please feel freeto do so and know that you are winning a debate no one is listening to. But since you are not listening to anyone here, I leave you to your illusions of superior agumentative technique and correctness.

[mrkablooey]

how do you spell HoF&S? :wink:

[Kati Compton]

how do you spell HoF&S? :wink:
Nah - we don't HOFS just because we disagree with someone. ;)

[SeanH]

Kati Compton I agree with all your responses. It is true that in the future SD will be cheaper then CF. It is true that more and more camera manufactures will move to SD to take advantage of the lower cost and smaller size of SD. Other people do have requirements of a wired Ethernet card or a VGA CF card that you will never see using Bluetooth or SD. I still strongly believe there are a hand full of people in the world that own a VGA CF card and even less that use it everyday and in the future it will be less.

Let me ask everyone this. If you knew by Dec 2004 that SD memory would be cheaper then CF would you still buy a bulky PDA today or a smaller PDA today.

Remember if you own CF peripherals like a GPS you can spend a little more and upgrade them to Bluetooth.

Sean

[Wiggster]

Kati Compton I agree with all your responses. It is true that in the future SD will be cheaper then CF. It is true that more and more camera manufactures will move to SD to take advantage of the lower cost and smaller size of SD. Other people do have requirements of a wired Ethernet card or a VGA CF card that you will never see using Bluetooth or SD. I still strongly believe there are a hand full of people in the world that own a VGA CF card and even less that use it everyday and in the future it will be less.

Let me ask everyone this. If you knew by Dec 2004 that SD memory would be cheaper then CF would you still buy a bulky PDA today or a smaller PDA today.

Remember if you own CF peripherals like a GPS you can spend a little more and upgrade them to Bluetooth.

Sean

So spending $30 less on a memory card is worth ditching GPS, camera, LAN/modem, and spending $1200 to replace all your CF devices with SD/BT.

What do you have against CF and people using peripherals they already have? CF isn't for you, but it is for THOUSANDS of other people.

[SeanH]

So spending $30 less on a memory card is worth ditching GPS, camera, LAN/modem, and spending $1200 to replace all your CF devices with SD/BT.
A CF GPS is a pain to use and most people that own them wish they would have bought a serial or Bluetooth version. A GPS needs a good view of the sky.

Some of these new PDA’s have a camera built in. Get one with a camera if that is important to you.

LAN/Modem – Most new PDA’s have WiFi built in. A Bluetooth 56Kb modem is $129.

Sean

[Wiggster]

So spending $30 less on a memory card is worth ditching GPS, camera, LAN/modem, and spending $1200 to replace all your CF devices with SD/BT.
A CF GPS is a pain to use and most people that own them wish they would have bought a serial or Bluetooth version. A GPS needs a good view of the sky.

Some of these new PDA’s have a camera built in. Get one with a camera if that is important to you.

LAN/Modem – Most new PDA’s have WiFi built in. A Bluetooth 56Kb modem is $129.

Sean

So, your rationale is that because there's a better alternative to CF solutions out RIGHT NOW, you should shell out full price for a brand-new peripheral when there is nothing wrong with your current one. And what about the people with a few gigs of CF cards lying around-- the price of replacing all those with CF will be more than the price of the new PDA that you're so adamant they not buy because it has dual slots.

What do you have against CF?

I have never owned a CF card in my life (notice my current PDA is SD only), but I'm not such a self-centered pretentious elitist to think that people who have CF accessories should ditch them all in favor of Bluetooth or SD (which will get phased out eventually anyway) if they want a new device and the same accessories.

[SeanH]

What do you have against CF?

I have never owned a CF card in my life (notice my current PDA is SD only), but I'm not such a self-centered pretentious elitist to think that people who have CF accessories should ditch them all in favor of Bluetooth or SD (which will get phased out eventually anyway) if they want a new device and the same accessories.
The only thing I have against CF is the size. It’s too large to be used in new phones and PDA’s. I do not have data to back this up but I predict the number one use of CF in a PDA is memory, second Wireless Ethernet, third is a CF GPS, fourth a Bluetooth card, and the rest of the CF peripheral are a mix of wired Ethernet cards, VGA cards, and misc cards.

As we all know if you buy any type of memory it will drop at least 50% in price in less then a year often a lot more. If you had to replace the memory cards you already have it would not cost as much as you expected.

Wireless Ethernet and Bluetooth are integrated in a lot of the new PDA's so there is no need to replace those cards.

As I posted before most people with a CF GPS want to replace it with a serial or Bluetooth version because it needs a good view of the sky.

Wired and VGA CF cards are not very popular. They are not sold in main stream stores like Best Buy and Circuit city because of the lack of demand compared to a CF WiFi card or a CF GPS.

Sean

[SeanH]

I do not see a future in SD peripherals but Bluetooth will be here for many many years to come. It’s like a 10Mb Ethernet card or a USB 1.0 low speed peripheral. They are standards that will always be around because as they evolve they will allow backward compatibility.

Sean

[Janak Parekh]

Let me ask everyone this. If you knew by Dec 2004 that SD memory would be cheaper then CF would you still buy a bulky PDA today or a smaller PDA today.
Stop speculating. You have no evidence that SD memory will be cheaper than CF by December, 2004. In fact, I can say with some certainty that it will be not, looking at the immediate pipeline for such devices. 2006, maybe. But as others have said, we are not in 2006. Are you planning to buy SD-only devices now in preparation for years from now?

Remember if you own CF peripherals like a GPS you can spend a little more and upgrade them to Bluetooth.
That is not a little more money to some people. It's a large investment.

Oh, why am I bothering? This is my last comment on the topic. As long as you refuse to listen to the millions of valid arguments that people post, I will not bother to reply. Your approach is rather disrespectful, and I don't appreciate it. :?

--janak

[Wiggster]

That is not a little more money to some people. It's a large investment.

Like us college students who set aside money from the food budget to buy a VGA Pocket PC :mrgreen:

[Kati Compton]

Let me ask everyone this. If you knew by Dec 2004 that SD memory would be cheaper then CF would you still buy a bulky PDA today or a smaller PDA today.
OK - I'll answer this question. Well, actually, I can't quite because you've not defined the full parameters. So, clearly you're saying bulky PDA w/CF vs. smaller w/o CF. But I still want dual-slot. So, I would STILL chose a dual CF/SD over SD only. But if there were an SD/SD out there that was smaller than a CF/SD? It would depend on the other features of the PDA. Size isn't the absolute most critical thing for me. If they were identical in every other regard (screen size, etc)? I'd probably do SD/SD. BUT - I don't use CF peripherals other than memory. Other people may have different answers.

Remember if you own CF peripherals like a GPS you can spend a little more and upgrade them to Bluetooth.
And if I spend just a little bit more, I can get a little nicer car, and if I spend a little more, I can get a bigger hard drive, and if I spend a little more, I can't pay off my credit card bill at the end of the month. ;) Spending a little more has to stop somewhere.

[Yo-DUH_87]

Um, wow. :roll:

As I said, and has been said multiple times by multiple other people, I have a use for CF now, and I am buying a pda now. I'm not planning on buying a PDA in 6 months, I'm buying a PDA now.

And right now, a PDA with only a SDIO slot is not enough to satisfy the majority of users. Perhaps that will change in 6 months, but the fact remains that it is true now, in this period of time.

If you have a problem with that, I'm sure there are lots of PDAs (like the dells) that don't ship with compact flash slots. I suggest you have a look at them ;)

[SeanH]

Are you planning to buy SD-only devices now in preparation for years from now?
Yes I am. I am not the only one HP has sold many SD only PDA’s in the last year.

Everything I buy is researched and well thought out. My first cell phone was a NEC bag phone back in 1985. I changed to a Nokia 6160 TDMA phone in 1997 because it was one of the first phones that supported the ability to receive forwarded email using SMS. Over time AT&T added the ability to send emails. In Feb of this year I upgraded the phone to a 6820 that offers Bluetooth for a wireless headset and Bluetooth for GPRS EDGE (200Kb) internet access from other devices like a PDA or a laptop. I feel strongly GPRS internet access anywhere and wireless headsets will have huge growth over the next couple of years. I have had two PDA’s in my life. The first was a Palm Pro in 1995 and the second is an iPAQ 3650 that I picked up Oct of 2000. I choose the iPAQ with a ARM CPU because I felt the ARM CPU would become the dominant CPU. Back then 90% of the software was for MIPS and SH3. Very little was ported to ARM at the time, that has changed. Very little has changed in PPC hardware over the last four years. The 3650 with the SA1110 running at 206MHz will outperform some of the newer PXA250 devices still shipping today. I want a new PDA because of VGA now but I want it to be small like the HP4150 and that can only be done with out a CF slot.

Three phones over 19 years and two PDA’s over 9 years is not bad. Some people spend $300 and a new phone every year and $600 on a new PDA. Those people can afford to upgrade there CF GPS to Bluetooth. If they did any research before they bought the GPS they would not own a CF GPS they would own a serial version that can stay on the dash with constant power for instant on. My Pharos serial GPS is also four years old and it will work with what ever PDA I buy in the future.

Sean

[Kati Compton]

This discussion has been split from here: http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=29393

[ADBrown]

People have been saying that CompactFlash is dead for years, since before I bought my old Axim X5. It still doesn't make it true. Large CF cards are still cheaper than SD, they're still faster, and CF slots still mean dual expansion. And there's nothing on the horizon to suggest that any of those things are changing soon.

If you don't want CF, by all means don't buy a unit with it. But please stop demanding that manufacturers cater to your needs alone. Some of us would like the choice.

[SeanH]

There will be a day very soon when the two will cross in price.

Here is a topic from today

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=276521&sid=c68047bc5e30826e912b44323e286350

128MB SD is $10
256MB SD is $18

I am sure in 6 months it will be less.

Sean

[Kati Compton]

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=276521&sid=c68047bc5e30826e912b44323e286350

128MB SD is $10
256MB SD is $18

Nice - having a bunch of small SD cards would be great for a dual-slot SD device. Pretty useless to me in a single-slot SD, though.

[SeanH]

I never had a issue with a dual SD PPC. I would buy a PPC with dual SD slots. I am not sure what I would do with the second slot but at least its not adding alot of size to the PDA like a CF card does.

Sean

[Sven Johannsen]

I never had a issue with a dual SD PPC. I would buy a PPC with dual SD slots. I am not sure what I would do with the second slot but at least its not adding alot of size to the PDA like a CF card does.

Sean

Same thing folks with one SD and one CF slot do. Reserve one for the extra storage space for programs and data that you always want, and the other for peripherals and the data that is more transient. During the day I can put in the SD with manuals and tech specs, and in the evening the video and music SD. I can swap that SD out whenever I need to use the camera, the barcode scanner, the video out card, without having to worry if the software that supports those devices is on the SD I just removed.

A dual SD would suit me just fine, and I have often suggested one should be under the battery, for relatively permanent but upgradeable use.

[SeanH]

I can swap that SD out whenever I need to use the camera, the barcode scanner, the video out card, without having to worry if the software that supports those devices is on the SD I just removed.
Use Bluetooth for peripherals.

I know I do things completely different the rest of the world but I am all for using one huge SD card and putting everything on it for day and evening. I do own a laptop with a 60GB HD and that’s were my manuals and tech spec reside. Adobe acrobat on a 624MHz PPC is still dog slow. My current PDA has a 1GB CF card www.mbu.com/ipaq/ that I have been using for 4 years. I have about 300MB of GPS maps for routis, less then 100MB of apps, 200MB of MP3’s, 200MB of videos and lots of free space. The same stuff will fit on a 1GB SD card.

Sean

[SeanH]

Here is a 1GB SD card for $119.

http://www.mwave.com/mwave/skusearch.hmx?SCriteria=3450213

I paid $500 for my 1GB CF Microdrive 4 years ago. The day is very close were SD will be cheaper then CF. It seems sooner then 6 months. I am sure that $119 price will half what it is today in 6 months.

Sean

[PetiteFlower]

Wow. You are a thick headed moron. I don't even know why I'm commenting here as I do not support the feeding of trolls but I kind of resent being told that I should be willing to spend more money to get BT peripherals because YOU don't think CF PPCs should be made. Your arrogance is staggering. Most people do NOT spend $600-700 on PPCs, those who can/do are in the vast minority even among PPC owners. I have an Axim X5 that I bought in 1/03 for $200, I plan to replace it as soon as I can afford to with an X30 which costs around $300; I own ONE 256MB SD memory card and a gomadic cable to connect my non-BT cell phone to my non-BT PDA, I can't even afford a CF GPS let alone one that uses bluetooth. Assuming that if someone can afford a PDA then obviously they can also afford all the most expensive accessories is presumptuous to the point of insulting.

You don't want a CF capable PDA, don't buy one. No one will twist your arms and make you. We don't care what your reasons are, mainly because you clearly don't care what OUR reasons are for wanting CF. Sit down and shut the * up already.

[SeanH]

Wow. You are a thick headed moron.
PetiteFlower

I was posting my views and thoughts on what I believe is the future of PDA’s on a forum hosted by a web site call pocketpcthoughts. My views and options could be wrong. I am sorry you think my option is of a “presumptuous moronic troll” using your words.

FYI This discussion started with “Asus A730: The True Successor to the HP 4150?” The A730 that we were talking about is a $600 to $700 PDA. I voiced my option that it could have been smaller if it did not have a CF slot. That led into a discussion of the future of CF.

Sean

[Kati Compton]

Please keep the personal insults in check - thanks!

[Kati Compton]

Here is a 1GB SD card for $119.

http://www.mwave.com/mwave/skusearch.hmx?SCriteria=3450213

There's some really good information on that link - thanks!

"CompactFlash is the world's most popular removable mass storage device."

"CompactFlash technology has resulted in the introduction of a new class of advanced, small, lightweight, low-power mobile products that significantly increases the productivity and enhances the lifestyle of millions of people. These products include digital cameras, digital music players, desktop computers, handheld PCs (HPCs), personal communicators, Palm PCs, Auto PCs, digital voice recorders and photo printers."

I'll make sure to check out that site next time I'm looking for a 1GB CF card.

[SeanH]

I screwed up. I was looking at CF pricing compared to SD. This is the price and link I meant to post.

http://www.issidata.com/shopexd.asp?id=3582&source=PG

It is $148.81 for the 1GB SD card. They still are really close in price.

Sean

[PetiteFlower]

See, but you're NOT voicing your opinion about the future of CF vs. SD. You are voicing(loudly and insistently and without listening to responses) the opinion that NO ONE should have need of a CF-capable device NOW. And that is clearly not true, as many people have told you over the SEVEN PAGES this thread has gone on for, yet you refuse to admit that a CF-capable device is a viable product that some(though possibly a minority) people still want in today's market--the market of August 04 and no later. The future of PDAs is irrelevant to that particular discussion. Yes CF devices will probably fade away eventually, like Beta VCRs and 5 inch floppy discs and hundreds of other things. But it won't be all that soon, and even after they've stopped being made people will still use ones that they have (Like all the Casio PPCs and Jornadas that people cling to, hell my dad still has his Beta VCR believe it or not and loves it!), there is no evidence to support that the CF slot will not continue to be useful to those who have them for at least the next 5 years or so, maybe even longer. And that alone is enough to make the choice to purchase this device (for some) a valid one!

I'm sorry for the personal insult, it was uncalled for and I should know better then to stoop to such levels. I just get incredibly frustrated by people who talk and talk and talk and say the same things over and over again and don't LISTEN to other people's responses, just go on and on as if the counter-argument was never even made! That's not a discussion, it's a lecture, and I for one don't come to this board to be lectured at.

[Arqentus]

Let me voice my opinion as somebody who is totaly new to the Pocket PC market ( and is looking to buy his first PPC ).

The first thing i noticed was the lack of SD hardware vs CF hardware, when looking around at the expandability of my future PPC.

CF cards are still priced cheaper here, then SD card's. Very close now ( a month ago, most shops there price's have been a lot bigger ... seen several price drops on SD & CF cards in this short amount of time ).

But, SD brings a problem with itself. When looking at Memory cards, it's clear that SD is limited to 1 GB, while i see 2 & 4 GB CF cards already ( about 100 euro / GB ). Now, i know the main argument will be "but i can fit everything on a 1GB card, so the size argument is mute". Wrong. A storage device is never big enouf. People have enouf with 1 GB becouse they make choice's who to add ... Only 1 GB, so i'll add 200mb of mp3's of my 2GB collection, and maybe a few ebooks, and leave the rest home. Give people a 2GB card, and the same thing will heapon.

Now, back to the main point ( i needed to defuse that counter argument before it was used ;) ). There are to many device's that won't go with SD cards.

Try a GPS/GPRS card, with the bulky antena part. When i see the CF card, i already can think of horror accident, now, what will the effect be when they try to put all that electronic's in a SD card ... can't be done ( your providers sim card will be almost half the SD card's size alone ), your antena box will need to be bigger, with 1/2 the size of your attachment part ( sinds SD card's are smaller, there is less to hook the antena box onto ). Now take a 1.3 MP camera ... a 10/100Mbits network card ... the list goes on.

SD card's are very nice now that Flash memory is going on a fast mirconisation process, and is getting smaller & smaller, but the other consumer electronic's don't become 1/2 of the size like Flash memory.

Another point of proof that CF card's are not going to be dropped or die: Every new high end PPC that is getting released is a dual slot design. A730, Loox 720, Hx 4700, Dell X50 ( rumored for dual slot ), e830 ( rumored for dual slot ), Loox v70 etc etc ...

Why do they bother adding dual slot's when it's as somebody here claims, CF will die out. Why wast the valuable space in already limited & valuable space of PPC's. Do the manufacture's do it to keep people heapy who already own CF part's. I don't think so, sinds several of expansion technology's have been added to the PPC's ( WiFI, BT ). They only add things when there is a market for it ( and some of these manufacture's are not so well know in providing update's of there software, so why provided backward compatible CF cards for customers ... becouse they see a use in it ).

And this also help's us mortal's here ... With one slot SD, you add a memory card, and vlam, your slot's are filled. With 2 SD slot's, fine,, you can add 2 memory card's, but again, that's it. With a SD & CF slot, you can add 1 or 2 memory card's, or 1 memory card & a piece of expandability ( let's say, the new WiFi system that got aproved, or a 10/100Mbits network connector ).

Pocket Pc's with 1 slot don't even get on my to buy list.

O yea, why are the low range or mid range mostly with one slot ( SD ), price ... CF is still a lot bigger then SD, and this become's a exchange. You get memory expansability but that's it. You get what you pay for. Aka, you can't do mutch beyond your standard memory expansion with lower ppc models ).

This is how i see the market, after starting to look out for a PPC sinds last month ( and learning up about it ;) ).

[urugoof]

Interesting.

I find that 'someone' is making a rather large deal over a rather small issue. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but how much size does a cf slot actually add to a device? 1mm of thickness? I find that a perfectly acceptable situation to live with. For the time being, the benefits of having a CF slot FAR outweigh the benefits of having a device that is 1mm thinner. Besides, slap a case on your device and the point becomes moot.

Arguments of what will occur in the future are a waste of time. Chances are neither SD nor Bluetooth will be around anyway. Who knows, maybe XD cards will be the big thing. SD cards are large and unwieldly compared to them :) Maybe we will be having this exact same discussion in 2 years about that.

I'm Done.

[Duncan]

Asus, Fujitsu-Siemens, HP, Toshiba and Dell - the biggest names in the Pocket PC world - all of whom are releasing powerful high end models. Every model will include a CF slot.

Why? Because people want it. That isn't difficult to grasp. Well - except to one person...

[Fishie]

I hope these post stick around for one or more years. I had the same argument with PCMCIA cards in the year 2000. Now people think it’s absurd to put a PCMCIA slot in a PDA because of size. I am sure in 2006 people will think the same of CF.

Sean

Just for your information there are PPCs with integrated PCMCI still on the market today.

[Fishie]

Kati Compton I agree with all your responses. It is true that in the future SD will be cheaper then CF. It is true that more and more camera manufactures will move to SD to take advantage of the lower cost and smaller size of SD. Other people do have requirements of a wired Ethernet card or a VGA CF card that you will never see using Bluetooth or SD. I still strongly believe there are a hand full of people in the world that own a VGA CF card and even less that use it everyday and in the future it will be less.

Let me ask everyone this. If you knew by Dec 2004 that SD memory would be cheaper then CF would you still buy a bulky PDA today or a smaller PDA today.

Remember if you own CF peripherals like a GPS you can spend a little more and upgrade them to Bluetooth.

Sean

Yes I would simply becouse it means I dont for now have to buy more crap, I can reuse what I have.

Bleutooth is all good and well but iff I already have a perfectly fine CF GPS for my PDA why should I ditch it and buy a bleutooth one?

Once the time comes in the future to upgrade great ill ditch it and buy whatever suits me then but we do have a lot of legacy devices and not having to ditch em now means I can actually you know save cash instead of having to rebuy everything.

In the future fine, for now ill look at maximising my options within my budget.

I am NOT gonna ditch what I already have and what works great for me today for something that will be beneficial in the future, better to hang in there and maximise the mileage I get out of what I already have.

[Fishie]

See, but you're NOT voicing your opinion about the future of CF vs. SD. You are voicing(loudly and insistently and without listening to responses) the opinion that NO ONE should have need of a CF-capable device NOW. And that is clearly not true, as many people have told you over the SEVEN PAGES this thread has gone on for, yet you refuse to admit that a CF-capable device is a viable product that some(though possibly a minority) people still want in today's market--the market of August 04 and no later. The future of PDAs is irrelevant to that particular discussion. Yes CF devices will probably fade away eventually, like Beta VCRs and 5 inch floppy discs and hundreds of other things. But it won't be all that soon, and even after they've stopped being made people will still use ones that they have (Like all the Casio PPCs and Jornadas that people cling to, hell my dad still has his Beta VCR believe it or not and loves it!), there is no evidence to support that the CF slot will not continue to be useful to those who have them for at least the next 5 years or so, maybe even longer. And that alone is enough to make the choice to purchase this device (for some) a valid one!

I'm sorry for the personal insult, it was uncalled for and I should know better then to stoop to such levels. I just get incredibly frustrated by people who talk and talk and talk and say the same things over and over again and don't LISTEN to other people's responses, just go on and on as if the counter-argument was never even made! That's not a discussion, it's a lecture, and I for one don't come to this board to be lectured at.

Excellent post

[surur]

Actually, to start with, I agreed with the CF people. I do however feel I understand SeanH's argument, and it is quite compelling.

If I understand correctly, he is arguing for making the correct choices now, to futureproof your purchase. He, I assume, is also advocating for the manufacturers to make forward thinking choices in their devices, and not just for the current market. That of course is fantasy, as an OEM will go out of business very quickly trying to define the market, as apposed to serving it.

From a personal point of view however, his argument makes sense. When buying, one should buy with the future in mind, and spend more now, so as to spend less by hanging on to your purchase longer. We normally call it upgradability, but of course if you made the right choice to start with, you wont need to upgrade as often or at all.

This is of course why one would buy a bluetooth pocketpc when there were hardly any bluetooth peripherals, and paid more for it, because one expects the market to grow into your purchase.

What I think SeanH is saying, is that by making the CF/size trade of now, instead of a year in the future (which I think most people would feel the OEM's are going to do in any case) one would not have to buy a new device in a years time, but could use the same device for 3 years.

In the end though, its all about people's priorities, and if you are going to upgrade in any case in a year, it makes sense to buy what would suite you now. If you do not plan to upgrade in 2-3 years, its better to spend more now and buy into the direction you think the market is moving.

Of course if the OEM's arn't providing the device you need, you are out of luck. Still, very interesting argument.

Sorry about the long ramble. I just dont see anybody defending a seemingly valid point of view.

Surur

[Duncan]

SeanH is not arguing that people make decisons on new purchaes that are 'future-proofed'

He is arguing that we should all be buying Pocket PCs with SD slots only now (indeed - he doesn't feel that we should have a choice) and spending large sums of money on top to change all of your working CF equipment into SD and Bluetooth stuff.

It doesn't exist yet? We should wait for it. It costs more? Doesn't matter because it will be cheaper in time (which in perverse SeanH world makes it a better buy now). Want the capacities of a CF card now (at a nice price)? Compromise with the more expensive lower capacity in the knowledge that some day SD will reach higher capacities at cheaper prices.

[surur]

I think its the difference between the long view and the short view. I imagine the same kind of thinking goes with buying a hybrid or electric car. If it wasn't for the early movers things would not really progress. For every gain there is usually some pain.

Eg. VGA screens are currently slower, SE is incompatible with some older software, you may have to buy new memory cards to get the gain in size.

I guess SeanH's frustration is that people are not seeing things his way ( I must say its an older person's POV (like my mother in law :( )), and he feel the manufacturers are not catering to him by not producing even one VGA device which is not dual slot too. Im sure if some-one made one, he would buy it, be happy, and not bug anyone else :)

Surur

[SeanH]

I just get incredibly frustrated by people who talk and talk and talk and say the same things over and over again and don't LISTEN to other people's responses
“I just get incredibly frustrated by people who” do not read the facts I post.

Maybe I am not listening to the facts. Please do me a favor and post why you think my data is incorrect. I posted this statement a while ago

I do not have data to back this up but I predict the number one use of CF in a PDA is memory, second Wireless Ethernet, third is a CF GPS, fourth a Bluetooth card, and the rest are a CF peripheral mix of wired Ethernet cards, VGA cards, and misc cards.
I do feel 100% confident that memory is the number one use of a CF and SD cards in PDA’s and think that everyone agrees. To replace a CF card with a SD card you will have to pay the following today.

128MB CF is less then $10 SD is $10
256MB CF is less then $19 and SD is $18
512MB CF is less then $55 and SD is $55
1GB CF is $119 and SD is $148
2GB CF is ?? and SD is a lot more

This will change a lot in the next 6 months. I have seen silicon roadmaps for 16GB SD die that will be released Q1 2005 for SD cards. Does anyone really believe that CF memory will always be the cheapest and the most dense memory moving forward?

I feel 90% confident that WiFi cards are the second most used CF cards out there. You can buy CF WiFi cards at Best Buy, Circuit City, Office Max, Office Depot off the self. If you buy a new PDA with WiFi built in why do you care about your old CF card?

I feel 80% confident that CF GPS cards are the third most common cards used in a PDA CF slot. I know a lot of people that bought CF GPS cards for PPC and make claims that the card will track three satellites in less then one minute. I sell GPS semiconductors for a living and know that it is impossible for any GPS chip set to acquire a signal that fast from a cold start. No one post specs less then one minute in there data sheets for a cold start. A lot of people that bought a CF GPS are disappointed in the acquire time and the fact that it has to sit on the dash to receive a signal often to far from the ability to read the maps on the display. If you own a serial or BT GPS that has constant power it can acquire a signal in less then one second. Most people that understand that fact understand this issue.

I feel 60% that a BT card is the fourth most popular card that people buy. You can not find them at Best Buy, Circuit City, Office Max, or Office Depot but people find them off web sites like mobileplant so they can use a Bluetooth peripheral with there old PPC.

I feel 100% confident that the rest market is less then 2% of CF card sales that includes things like wired Ethernet, bar code scanners and CF VGA cards. Best Buy, Circuit City, Office Max, Office Depot all carried wired CF Ethernet card for a while but after WiFi took off they no longer carrier them. There are a lot CF and Bluetooth Barcode scanners out there that cost more then a CF version but people that use barcode scanners will pay the price. CF VGA cards are a thing that I still think very few people use. You can go to Amazon.com and do search for a CF VGA card. It will only show one. It’s a little tiny CF card with a DB15 VGA connector that is 4X the size of a CF card. It looks bigger then a HP 4150. You will not find any of these products at Best Buy, Circuit City, Office Max, Office Depot because the demand is less then 1%.

Please clarify the parts were I do not listen. You claim I talk and talk and talk and say the same things over and over again and don't LISTEN to other people's responses. Please post the following responses.

1) Do you think CF memory will be around for ever?
People like Kati Compton posted that they believe that CF will be replaced with SD memory.

2) Do you think if your PDA has WiFi built in you still need a card for WiFi?

3) Do you think that if you bought a CF GPS and knew you can buy one that does not have to come out of a cold start (1-3 minutes) every time when the PPC powers up you would not spend $89 for a serial version or $150 for a BT version?

3) Do you think if your PDA has BT built in you still need a card for BT?

4) Do you think more then 2% of the market still uses there wired Ethernet card or a CF VGA card? Most people replaced wired Ethernet with WiFi on laptops and PDA’s

5) Do you have a list of CF devices that thousands of people still own that would have to upgrade to Bluetooth and they won’t upgrade because to cost to much?

Why make a PDA larger because people think they need a CF slot when the do not? I am not against two SD slots for people that have the need for two memory cards. I do not think SD peripherals will be popular because they can all be addressed with Bluetooth.

If you have 8 128MB CF cards or 4 256MB cards why not spend $148 on one 1GB cards for a new PDA. Or you can wait and spend a lot less in 6 months.

It’s a fact that over the years it’s been a goal of PDA’s and cell phones manufactures to create smaller devices. Two years ago that was one of the number one selling features of the Palm Pilot. They claimed to have the smallest PDA out and PPC’s were large and bulky. Then a bunch of PDA’s like the 4150 came out with out CF that changed that. If you argue this fact please post facts.

Sean

[Kati Compton]

1) Do you think CF memory will be around for ever?
People like Kati Compton posted that they believe that CF will be replaced with SD memory.
I said it's likely *eventually* (or I meant to), but I don't know when that is. Forever is a long time. Do I think there will be CF cards in 6000 years? No. No I don't. Do I think CF memory cards will still be sold in 5 years? Yes I do.

2) Do you think if your PDA has WiFi built in you still need a card for WiFi?
I don't think anyone is suggesting that they do - but that they might need wired ethernet/modem (and several people have stated why they might not want a bluetooth modem).

3) Do you think that if you bought a CF GPS and knew you can buy one that does not have to come out of a cold start (1-3 minutes) every time when the PPC powers up you would not spend $89 for a serial version or $150 for a BT version?
I think you need to rephrase this question - it's a bit confusing.

3) Do you think if your PDA has BT built in you still need a card for BT?
Again - I think you're being ridiculous here.

5) Do you have a list of CF devices that thousands of people still own that would have to upgrade to Bluetooth and they won’t upgrade because to cost to much?
Why should people replace things that work for them?

Why make a PDA larger because people think they need a CF slot when the do not?
YOU think they do not. They feel they do. There's a huge difference. As long as people want to buy CF-based things, companies will make them. And I'm afraid that by yourself, you are not going to convince the entire world they don't need CF. So if the deprecation of CF is going to happen, it will happen naturally over time, not because you tell people they are wrong to want CF. For example, when I bought my Axim X5, the low price and the CF slot were more important to me than the size.

If you have 8 128MB CF cards or 4 256MB cards why not spend $148 on one 1GB cards for a new PDA. Or you can wait and spend a lot less in 6 months.
a) Because I just spent a lot of money on a PDA. If you have that kind of money to buy big memory cards whenever you want, you're welcome to send me one care of Pocket PC Thoughts.

b) If I have a current need for memory, I'm not going to wait 6 months.

[Yo-DUH_87]

Why make a PDA larger because people think they need a CF slot when the do not?

Dude, the market has a demand for it, otherwise the mfgs would not put it in there! The consumer gets what the consumer wants. If you are not happy with it, go buy a pda from someone else (Palm comes to mind).

I need 2 gb of storage on my pda, right now. Lets see, there are not a whole lot of options since there are no 2gb sd cards on the market right now. Therefore I would NEED Compact Flash.

I can agree that in 6 months to a year, the market may change, but that really doesn't matter now, in the present, August 21st 2004.

People have been saying that petrol fueled cars are going to be replaced with some other tech for years. Does that mean I should throw my old car away and await the tech to catch up? Does that mean that since gas stations will be made obsolete, they should close their doors now because of the new and coming tech?

Your argument makes absolutely no sense, and is just an example of how self-centered your reasoning is. You don't need a cf slot, so why should anyone else?

Well, I've got news for you pal. I want a CF slot, thank you very much.

[Duncan]

Well, I've got news for you pal. I want a CF slot, thank you very much.

No, no, no... you just *think* you want a CF slot. Clearly you can't possibly really want one...! :roll:

[Yo-DUH_87]

Well, I've got news for you pal. I want a CF slot, thank you very much.

No, no, no... you just *think* you want a CF slot. Clearly you can't possibly really want one...! :roll:

Not you too :roll:

[Janak Parekh]

No, no, no... you just *think* you want a CF slot. Clearly you can't possibly really want one...! :roll:
Not you too :roll:
Relax... Duncan's merely being sarcastic. ;)

--janak

[Yo-DUH_87]

Relax... Duncan's merely being sarcastic. ;)

--janak

As was I ;)

[Sven Johannsen]

My this is volitile. I noticed one of the major arguments to banishing CF is the size the slot adds to the PPC. The one for memory, one for peripheral argument is countered with BT peripherals being the saviour, regardless of the fact there is no BT wired ethernet adapter (does a BT access point do this?), and a BT connected camera peripheral seems silly. For the most part there is a BT solution for most things, and we won't talk about the cost at this point.

BUT Lets say we travel, and often end up in hotel rooms with only cabled ethernet or direct connect phone lines. Just those two fairly common requirements. Heck lets say we want GPS too, and WiFi in case we hit a modern hotel.

Lets take my 2215 and my CF ethernet and CF Modem, CF Wifi, CF GPS and lets stack them up.

Now lets take my 4155 (w WiFi and BT) and the BT Modem, and it's adapter, and the mini Access Point (to hook to the hotel ethernet) and it's adapter, and the BT GPS, and it's adapter and stack them up. OK if we are lucky all the adapters have the same plug so we only need one, but then we can only charge one thing at a time. We do need to charge them, plug them in, or replace the batteries you know.

Seems the none CF pile is considerably higher to get the same capability.
Hmm, maybe saving the few mm's wasn't that great. There are things that CF still does more effectively (overall) than SD or BT. Until that changes, in availability, and cost, you are going to have a requirement for CF slots.

[PetiteFlower]

Wow. "Future proofing" a PDA purchase? That's such an absurd concept I don't think I can wrap my head around it. Newer better faster cheaper PPCs are being released CONSTANTLY! Every single quarter there's something better coming out--sometimes even every month! Each manufacturer seems to release a new/updated device about every 6 months, at most every year. New OEMs are jumping into the market all the time. The technology is changing so fast it's impossible right now to buy a device that won't be outclassed in SOME way in 3-6 months, even if you buy the top of the line.

You want to invest in BT peripherals now because you think you'll get a longer life out of them, go ahead. Remember all those posts we've seen about BT dying out? Of course that's another debate altogether......but if I had to put my money on which technology was more likely to still be in use in 10 years, I'd put it on CF. BT has yet to gain the appeal of the masses in the US, it's difficult to use and lots of non-techies just don't want to take the time to figure it out, and there's a good chance it will be replaced by another form of wireless protocall in the next 10 years. CF, on the other hand, is mostly used in cameras--which ARE used by the non-techie population. If you were not a techie and you owned a camera with a CF card and it was time to get a new camera, would you want one that you could use your existing memory cards in? Of COURSE you would!

There's no reason to believe right now that BT will necessarily be around longer then CF.

[Wiggster]

You want to invest in BT peripherals now because you think you'll get a longer life out of them, go ahead. Remember all those posts we've seen about BT dying out? Of course that's another debate altogether......but if I had to put my money on which technology was more likely to still be in use in 10 years, I'd put it on CF. BT has yet to gain the appeal of the masses in the US, it's difficult to use and lots of non-techies just don't want to take the time to figure it out, and there's a good chance it will be replaced by another form of wireless protocall in the next 10 years. CF, on the other hand, is mostly used in cameras--which ARE used by the non-techie population. If you were not a techie and you owned a camera with a CF card and it was time to get a new camera, would you want one that you could use your existing memory cards in? Of COURSE you would!

There's no reason to believe right now that BT will necessarily be around longer then CF.

I beg to differ. Bluetooth is becoming mainstream, and although it's been a while in coming, it's become adopted quite widely. Sure you can buy CF cards in Target, but they're on the decline due to other formats (not Memory Stick, of course :mrgreen:) Bluetooth (or a supplemental version of BT with much higher bandwidth) will likely outlive our current memory standards.

[surur]

I bought my bluetooth GPS receiver because I thought as a peripheral it would outlive my pocketpc (a FSC Loox 600 at the time). A few months later I upgraded to the XDA 2, which only had a SD slot (and I dont think any ppc-phones have come out with CF yet). I did not have to make a hard choice then regarding CF/Bluetooth peripherals, as I had already made that choice 3 months ago when I bought the bluetooth unit.

As SeanH said, if you are buying a new peripherals, its probably wiser to go for a bluetooth unit, as its likely to outlive your CF PDA. This does not of course solve the problem of "legacy peripherals" with ISA^^^CF connectors.

Surur

[mrkablooey]

Gee, and I thought I was the spawn of Satan!! :twisted:

[SeanH]

I would like to change my statement from “Why make a PDA larger because people think they need a CF slot when the do not?” to “Why make a PDA larger because people do not understand their options?” It means the same thing but the the second statement sounds better.

Here is a great example

BUT Lets say we travel, and often end up in hotel rooms with only cabled ethernet or direct connect phone lines. Just those two fairly common requirements. Heck lets say we want GPS too, and WiFi in case we hit a modern hotel.

Lets take my 2215 and my CF ethernet and CF Modem, CF Wifi, CF GPS and lets stack them up.

Now lets take my 4155 (w WiFi and BT) and the BT Modem, and it's adapter, and the mini Access Point (to hook to the hotel ethernet) and it's adapter, and the BT GPS, and it's adapter and stack them up. OK if we are lucky all the adapters have the same plug so we only need one, but then we can only charge one thing at a time. We do need to charge them, plug them in, or replace the batteries you know.
I travel a lot and use my GPS every day. If I had a 4155 with BT in that exact same scenario I would plug in the BT GPS in my car or the rental cars cigarette lighter and set it on the dash and leave it plugged in through out the trip. When I got to a hotel that did not offer free WiFi only wired Ethernet or dialup I use GPRS. I would have my 4150 connect to the my Nokia 6820 using Bluetooth to a 200Kb connection to the net using GPRS Edge. That is 3 times faster then dial up and about as fast as most wired connection in hotels that share a T1 with all the rooms. Most hotels that offer wired Ethernet or pay per use WiFi charge $10 a day. If you stay for more then two nights GPRS is a lot cheaper with ATT or T-Mobile. The next day I would get in the car and connect to the Bluetooth GPS unit over Bluetooth (no wires) and have a signal locked in less then 3 seconds (this is impossible with a CF GPS card)

Here is another great example that needs to understand the trend to Bluetooth.

Now, back to the main point ( i needed to defuse that counter argument before it was used ). There are to many device's that won't go with SD cards.

Try a GPS/GPRS card, with the bulky antena part. When i see the CF card, i already can think of horror accident, now, what will the effect be when they try to put all that electronic's in a SD card ... can't be done ( your providers sim card will be almost half the SD card's size alone ), your antena box will need to be bigger, with 1/2 the size of your attachment part ( sinds SD card's are smaller, there is less to hook the antena box onto ).
I am a huge fan of GPS/GPRS and use it every day. You are correct you will never see a GPS/GPRS SD card. A better solution if you are going to buy a new PDA and use GPS/GPRS is to either buy a PPC phone edition like the HP 6300 with GPRS built in or buy a phone with Bluetooth and GPS/GPRS and connect over Bluetooth. I am not a big fan of PPC Phone Edition phone because they are still a little big for me and I am afraid I would leave it somewhere and never see it again. But I think there great devices.

Remember all those posts we've seen about BT dying out? Of course that's another debate altogether......but if I had to put my money on which technology was more likely to still be in use in 10 years, I'd put it on CF.
You think that in 10 years CF peripherals will be more common the Bluetooth peripherals? You obviously do not follow technology. I would bet a lot of money that there are very very few CF cards being developed today. Why would a company create a new wired Ethernet card, the demand is dropping because of WiFi? There are a bunch of WiFi cards out there now. Why would a company develop new ones when WiFi is shipping in a lot of the new PDA’s? I doubt there are any new CF GPS cards being developed. The focus is on BT. Here are 16 BT GPS’s there were released in the last year. http://www.gpspassion.com/fr/articles.asp?id=55 If you read pocketpctoughts every week there is are new Bluetooth GPS units being release like the new Dell unit. Bluetooth is a huge focus for cellphones, new models are being released every week with Bluetooth. Bluetooth on a cell phone will let you browse the web with GPRS on your PDA using Bluetooth. You can also use a headset to play audio from your BT PDA or cellphone. There are over 40 new Bluetooth headsets released this year. I reviewed a few here www.mbu.com/headsets/ I doubt anyone is developing new Bluetooth CF cards because a lot of the new PDA’s include BT.

BT connected camera peripheral seems silly.
It makes sense to me. I can take pictures on my Nokia 6820 cell phone and over Bluetooth view the pictures on my laptop or any PDA with Bluetooth. I can take my Nokia 6820 to any drug store with one of those yellow Kodak kiosk stations and click “Send Pic via Bluetooth” on the phone and it prints using there high end photo processing centers with no wires or removable cards.

Sean

[dean_shan]

For me having a CF slot is a must. If the PPC does not have one I don't even consider it for purchase.

[Paragon]

I would like to change my statement from “Why make a PDA larger because people think they need a CF slot when the do not?” to “Why make a PDA larger because people do not understand their options?” It means the same thing but the the second statement sounds better.

Wow, SeanH! I thought I could be stubborn, and prone to using the hammer when I felt I had it....Geez, be cool! Think about it for a minute. Your opinion is probably right, but it is just YOUR opinion even if it is based in fact. HOWEVER, others have differing opinions based on what they WANT, and they want something different then you....plain and simple.

Dave

[Duncan]

I would like to change my statement from “Why make a PDA larger because people think they need a CF slot when the do not?” to “Why make a PDA larger because people do not understand their options?” It means the same thing but the the second statement sounds better.

Please oh wise SeanH - enlighten us poor ignorant souls who know so little about the Pocket PC world and who fail to understand what the shining light of your brilliance seeks to teach us.

God forbid that we should continue to think that you are missing the bloody point...! :roll:

One last time - and this time pay attention:

We know that the trend is to SD card and Bluetooth peripherals (or whatever follows on from them). That is not in dispute - except to you, since you seem to read only what you want to read in other people's posts.

BUt right now many, many people have a a lot invested in CF peripherals and we are not wealthy enough to ditch them and replace them with more expensive variants. Right now CF memory and peripherals are cheaper. Right now having two varieties of expansion slots gives us more options.

You are unbelieveably blinkered and arrogant about this. It is NOT that we don't understand our options and you do (can you even begin to understand how silly such a belief makes you appear?) - it is that you continue to fail to grasp the obvious and clearly set out arguments for keeping the dual slot CF/SD design.

You really are like the soldier who wonders why everyone else is marching out of step with him...

[Wiggster]

That is not in dispute - except to you, since you seem to read only what you want to read in other people's posts.

[...]

You are unbelieveably blinkered and arrogant about this. It is NOT that we don't understand our options and you do (can you even begin to understand how silly such a belief makes you appear?) - it is that you continue to fail to grasp the obvious and clearly set out arguments for keeping the dual slot CF/SD design.

Words right outta my mouth.

[SeanH]

BUt right now many, many people have a a lot invested in CF peripherals and we are not wealthy enough to ditch them and replace them with more expensive variants. Right now CF memory and peripherals are cheaper. Right now having two varieties of expansion slots gives us more options.
That’s what I keep asking what are these CF peripherals that people have a lot invested in? Please provide a list like this

CF WiFi card that I paid $59 for.
CF Bluetooth card that I paid $129 for.
CF Wired Ethernet card that I paid $79 for.
CF GPS that I paid $200 for that I hate because it has to stay on the dash it takes for ever to aqquire a signal.
CF 512MB card that I pat $200 for 3 years ago when I bought the PDA.
CF GPS/GPRS card I paid $500 for.

Total $1167 (this is a lot of money in CF accessories)

Please list all the ones I missed. People keep saying there are more but no body is posting what they are.

If you bought a brand new PDA to replace your 3 year old ipaq with all those CF accessories here is what it would cost.

CF WiFi – its built in your new PDA $0
CF Bluetooth its built in your new PDA $0
CF Wired card – use WiFi or Bluetooth to GPRS $0 (I know there are a hand full of people that still need wired Ethernet but its very very small and less every day)
CF GPS – Most people that bought these are very unhappy with them. $89 for serial or $150 for BT
CF 512MB memory card – They are really cheap today $55
CF GPS/GPRS card – You can either buy a PDA with GSM/GPRS or use a Bluetooth Phone with GSM/GPRS $0 (i paid $75 for my Nokia 6820 in 02/04)

The total cost is $55 to get a new memory if you do not need have CF GPS. If you do need to replace a CF GPS a serial version is $89 more and BT is $150 and you will be a lot happier with the way it works.

If you invested $1167 over three years in CF accessories $55 is not a big investment to replace all your CF peripherals when you upgrade to your next PDA.

Sean

[Sven Johannsen]

I travel a lot and use my GPS every day. If I had a 4155 with BT in that exact same scenario I would plug in the BT GPS in my car or the rental cars cigarette lighter and set it on the dash and leave it plugged in through out the trip.

Not sure why, doesn't your PPC run out of juice way before your BT GPS? Mine does. That's why I power my PPC, and my BT GPS (if need be) which means I have to carry an octopus cable arrangement or a car power splitter and two car chargers.

When I got to a hotel that did not offer free WiFi only wired Ethernet or dialup I use GPRS. I would have my 4150 connect to the my Nokia 6820 using Bluetooth to a 200Kb connection to the net using GPRS Edge.

And how much per month is this costing you? It may be worth to you, but that doesn't mean it is to everyone.

Most hotels that offer wired Ethernet or pay per use WiFi charge $10 a day. If you stay for more then two nights GPRS is a lot cheaper with ATT or T-Mobile.

Well I can tell you that T-mobile is not anywhere near 200K. More like 24K, and I use it when I don't get FREE WiFi or wired ethernet, which is much more prevelant than it used to be.


BT connected camera peripheral seems silly.
It makes sense to me. I can take pictures on my Nokia 6820 cell phone and over Bluetooth view the pictures on my laptop or any PDA with Bluetooth.

That's not a BT camera peripheral, like a BT GPS or a BT modem, that is a camera. A crummy one, but a full camera none-the-less. You are extholing the virtues of BT peripherals. There isn't a BT camera that has a lens and a button, that uses the PPC as storage and viewfinder. That would be silly.

Guess you missed my point altogether, but that seems typical. I can do, with CF peripherals most everything you can do, with a smaller overall package, when counting the peripherals and their support accessories.

I have a 4155, BT GPS, a GPRS service and a BT Cell phone. I also have a 2215 (dual slot with BT), and a CF GPS, CF Wifi, and the same BT phone and GPRS service. Even discounting the lack of capability to do wired ethernet or dialup with the 4155 without carrying significantly more and expensive BT boxes, I carry more support cubic inches for that setup than I do the 2215. The 2215 is 1.9mm thicker than the 4155. Is that really worth the argument?

[SeanH]

And how much per month is this costing you? It may be worth to you, but that doesn't mean it is to everyone.
If you convince ATT you are using it only with a PDA you can get it for $25 a month unlimited. We have a corporate agreement to get 15% all services with ATT so it’s less. T-Moible does not support EDGE yet so you will not see speeds over 64Kb.

I do not own a PDA with BT or a BT GPS. I am waiting for VGA units to start shipping with WiFi and BT. I use GSM/GPRS with my laptop a lot over BT.

I have a serial GPS hardwired in my car. When I enter my car I plug the adapter on the bottom of the PDA and it provides power and serial connection to the PDA. If I had the same thing with BT I would hardwire a power connector for the GPS and hardware power for the PDA. That way I can drive for my hours or days.

When I travel by plain I only carry one power supply for my laptop. I have a USB to Nokia adapter to charge the phone. I have a USB to iPAQ adapter that sync’s and charges the PDA. Both are no larger then a standard cable.

Sean

[PetiteFlower]

Remember all those posts we've seen about BT dying out? Of course that's another debate altogether......but if I had to put my money on which technology was more likely to still be in use in 10 years, I'd put it on CF.
You think that in 10 years CF peripherals will be more common the Bluetooth peripherals?

Ah but you see that's not what I said. I said CF peripherals will still be IN USE in 10 years. Didn't say anything about more common or more popular or anything. I think it's a pretty safe bet that in 10 years some people will still be using CF items. BT's future is still not that certain. BT MAY still be in use in 10 years. But CF DEFINITELY will still be used.

Try reading what I wrote next time instead of putting words into my mouth(keyboard?).

[Sven Johannsen]

So you carry a laptop and cables so you can charge your phone and PPC, you don't even own the BT peripherals that you are telling everyone else is the reason they don't need CF, you car is specially wired to accomodate your lifestyle and equipment and you're getting a corporate break on your GPRS bill. And after all that you tell the rest of the world they don't need CF slots because it might add 2mm to the PPC you might buy? You ought to try politics.

[SeanH]

Try reading what I wrote next time instead of putting words into my mouth(keyboard?).
Sorry let me fix that for you.

Before

Remember all those posts we've seen about BT dying out? Of course that's another debate altogether......but if I had to put my money on which technology was more likely to still be in use in 10 years, I'd put it on CF.
You think that in 10 years CF peripherals will be more common the Bluetooth peripherals?
After
Remember all those posts we've seen about BT dying out? Of course that's another debate altogether......but if I had to put my money on which technology was more likely to still be in use in 10 years, I'd put it on CF.
You think that in 10 years CF peripherals are more likely to still be in use then Bluetooth peripherals?

I hope that is more clear for you.

I still have to ask the question? You think that in 10 years CF peripherals are more likely to still be in use then Bluetooth peripherals? A few other people responded to your post and they believe that is not the case. Bluetooth in the last year has had huge growth. In 10 years it might be BT ver 8 but I am sure it will be backward compatible.

Sean

[SeanH]

you don't even own the BT peripherals that you are telling everyone else is the reason they don't need CF, you car is specially wired to accomodate your lifestyle and equipment
My Laptop has BT, my cellphone has BT, my Logitech headset has BT. For a living a sell semiconductors. On device I work a lot with is a National LMX9820 http://www.national.com/nationaledge/jan03/LMX9820.html. It is very common for me to work with a customer that wants to add Bluetooth to there end product so you can walk up with a PDA with BT and reconfigure there end product. I have a lot of experience with BT hardware and software.

I wired the car my self.

I will buy a new PDA when someone starts shipping one with VGA, WiFi, and BT.

Sean

[Duncan]

SeanH - telling you anything is clearly a waste of time, as you just stubbornly miss the point and (deliberately?) misunderstand everything that is said to you. Last time I spent this much time in discussion with a brick wall was as a very drunk student...

Just ti make a point though, for all that it hardly seems worth it, my fully functional, excellent power efficient CF GPS would cost me a minimum of £114 to replace with a BT version. My oft used VGA out CF card would cost me over £100 to replace with an SD version (unless I had two SD slots - heaven only knows where I would store the actual presentations. My 1GB CF card would cost me over £200 to replace with an equivalent SD card - of course then where would I put the 512MB SD card (for programs) that has permanent residence in the SD slot? My 4GB microdrive would cost several thousand to replace with an SD card.

There don't have to be a lot of CF peripherals - just enough that would be difficult to replace without losing out in functionality.

[Kati Compton]

Most hotels that offer wired Ethernet or pay per use WiFi charge $10 a day. If you stay for more then two nights GPRS is a lot cheaper with ATT or T-Mobile.

1. GPRS is MUCH slower. Which would suck if I have to download a big file. Or even if I wanted to do heavy web browsing.

2. The hotels don't make me sign a contract, T-Mobile and AT&T would. T-Mobile is roaming in my area, so it probably doesn't make sense to get it. AT&Ts plans are too expensive. In general, data over cell phone is expensive, though T-Mo is certainly cheaper than the others. Anyway - if you stay more than 2 nights EVERY MONTH, GPRS is cheaper than paying the hotel fee.

3. I can expense the hotel fee, but cannot expense my cell phone.

[Fishie]

BUt right now many, many people have a a lot invested in CF peripherals and we are not wealthy enough to ditch them and replace them with more expensive variants. Right now CF memory and peripherals are cheaper. Right now having two varieties of expansion slots gives us more options.
That’s what I keep asking what are these CF peripherals that people have a lot invested in? Please provide a list like this

CF WiFi card that I paid $59 for.
CF Bluetooth card that I paid $129 for.
CF Wired Ethernet card that I paid $79 for.
CF GPS that I paid $200 for that I hate because it has to stay on the dash it takes for ever to aqquire a signal.
CF 512MB card that I pat $200 for 3 years ago when I bought the PDA.
CF GPS/GPRS card I paid $500 for.

Total $1167 (this is a lot of money in CF accessories)

Please list all the ones I missed. People keep saying there are more but no body is posting what they are.

If you bought a brand new PDA to replace your 3 year old ipaq with all those CF accessories here is what it would cost.

CF WiFi – its built in your new PDA $0
CF Bluetooth its built in your new PDA $0
CF Wired card – use WiFi or Bluetooth to GPRS $0 (I know there are a hand full of people that still need wired Ethernet but its very very small and less every day)
CF GPS – Most people that bought these are very unhappy with them. $89 for serial or $150 for BT
CF 512MB memory card – They are really cheap today $55
CF GPS/GPRS card – You can either buy a PDA with GSM/GPRS or use a Bluetooth Phone with GSM/GPRS $0 (i paid $75 for my Nokia 6820 in 02/04)

The total cost is $55 to get a new memory if you do not need have CF GPS. If you do need to replace a CF GPS a serial version is $89 more and BT is $150 and you will be a lot happier with the way it works.

If you invested $1167 over three years in CF accessories $55 is not a big investment to replace all your CF peripherals when you upgrade to your next PDA.

Sean

Your math is seriously flawed here.

First of all I NEED my wired card and there is NO substitute for that, GPRS and especially EDGE is NOT available on most places of this planet and the places where it is available it costs a crapload of money often being tied to expensive data plans which you have to pay regardles if you use em or not and over here we dont have cellphone subsidising so getting a bleutooth cellphone in case I dont have one yet would cost me at least 200$.
Apart from that I am an international traveler, roaming costs would quickly kill whatever I wanted to do, not to talk of incompatible standards etcetera even so I would need a quadband phone and still be out of luck for EDGE most places I go since the coverage of that standard worldwide is pathetic to say the least.

In short you go from best case scenarios, scenarios that simply dont work in the real world.

The world and useage patterns are larger then the bubble you never have seem to left so dont argue that manufacturers should limit my options and make absolete those things I have money invested in becouse you have an irrational hatred for the CF form.

One of the reasons I can afford a new PPC so often is becouse I DONT have to rebuy my peripherals all the time and yes when I do buy something I try to make it as future proof as possible, I do look for built in WiFi and built in bleutooth and whatever else.

[Kati Compton]

CF WiFi card that I paid $59 for.
CF Bluetooth card that I paid $129 for.
CF Wired Ethernet card that I paid $79 for.
CF GPS that I paid $200 for that I hate because it has to stay on the dash it takes for ever to aqquire a signal.
CF 512MB card that I pat $200 for 3 years ago when I bought the PDA.
CF GPS/GPRS card I paid $500 for.

Total $1167 (this is a lot of money in CF accessories)
Now it just looks to me like you resent CF because of all the money you've spent on it.

[Fishie]

you don't even own the BT peripherals that you are telling everyone else is the reason they don't need CF, you car is specially wired to accomodate your lifestyle and equipment
My Laptop has BT, my cellphone has BT, my Logitech headset has BT. For a living a sell semiconductors. On device I work a lot with is a National LMX9820 http://www.national.com/nationaledge/jan03/LMX9820.html. It is very common for me to work with a customer that wants to add Bluetooth to there end product so you can walk up with a PDA with BT and reconfigure there end product. I have a lot of experience with BT hardware and software.

I wired the car my self.

I will buy a new PDA when someone starts shipping one with VGA, WiFi, and BT.

Sean

Man you must be crying out loud over the fact that all PPCs that incorporate what you want come with CF slots.

I mean seriously shouldnt you wait then until one comes along that does NOT have a CF slot?

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

[Paragon]

That’s what I keep asking what are these CF peripherals that people have a lot invested in? Please provide a list like this

CF WiFi card that I paid $59 for.
CF Bluetooth card that I paid $129 for.
CF Wired Ethernet card that I paid $79 for.
CF GPS that I paid $200 for that I hate because it has to stay on the dash it takes for ever to aqquire a signal.
CF 512MB card that I pat $200 for 3 years ago when I bought the PDA.
CF GPS/GPRS card I paid $500 for.

SeanH

I still use the following on a regular basis, mostly due to necessity:

CF LAN card $149.00 CND
CF 56K modem $149.00 CND
CF WiFi card

Most hotels I find myself in do not have WiFi, but do have wired LAN, hense the need for the CF LAN card.

A couple of hotels I stay in regularily only have dialup, so I need to have the CF 56K modem.....Yes I know you are going to tell me there are Bluetooth solutions to this, but_I_already_own_the_CF card.

There is a need for CF for some of us. Clearly there is enough of us otherwise OEMs wouldn't be offering us the option.

One learns very quickly in business that they will fail miserably by providing product to their customer based on what they themselves want, instead of listening to what the customer tells them they want....sensible or not. ;)

Dave

[Sven Johannsen]

My Laptop has BT, my cellphone has BT I don't care. We are talking about BT peripherals here not hosts. Why haven't you replaced your GPS with a BT version? What do you do when you travel, which you obviously do enough to make company subsidised GPRS necessary? Guess you don't go anywhere that doesn't have EDGE, huh?

It is very common for me to work with a customer that wants to add Bluetooth to there end product so you can walk up with a PDA with BT and reconfigure there end product. I have a lot of experience with BT hardware and software. That's nice, don't see why that is an argument against CF. Possibly your customer might like the fact that I can control his equipment with my old Dell X5 with a BT CF card in it.

I wired the car my self. Also very nice. But do I need to wire my car so you don't have to see CF slots. Whto do you do when you travel?

I will buy a new PDA when someone starts shipping one with VGA, WiFi, and BT.

Sean

Let us know when you get that 4700, and buy the BT GPS. :)

[SeanH]

One of the reasons I can afford a new PPC so often is becouse I DONT have to rebuy my peripherals all the time and yes when I do buy something I try to make it as future proof as possible, I do look for built in WiFi and built in bleutooth and whatever else.

Now it just looks to me like you resent CF because of all the money you've spent on it.
Fishie I am more frugal then most when it comes to buying new PDA’s and peripherals. I am still using a iPAQ 3650 that is four years old. Kati I do not own all those CF devices. I was trying to create a list of every possible CF card a person might have. This is a list of what I have bought over the last four years. Most of it was bought four years ago.

iPAQ 3650 $499
CF Sleeve $69 (that I made real small www.mbu.com/ipaq/ )
1GB Microdrive $499
Serial Pharos GPS $129
Xicom Wired Ethernet card $79 (I have not used that card in two years)
Abicom WiFi Card $39 (I got it on sale two years ago)


Man you must be crying out loud over the fact that all PPCs that incorporate what you want come with CF slots.
Nobody is shipping a PDA with VGA, WiFi and BT with or with out CF yet


First of all I NEED my wired card and there is NO substitute for that, GPRS and especially EDGE is NOT available on most places of this planet.
It is available just about everywhere in the USA. The speed is 200Kb and the price is $25 a month for unlimited through AT&T.

I have come to the conclusion that everyone in this forums topic carries a CAT5 cable with RJ45. They use it everyday when they are at home, at work or on the road for internet access. Best Buy used to sell wired Ethernet cards off the self but they stopped for some odd reason. From what I read here it sounds like they are coming back strong. I also get the feeling that everyone owns a CF VGA card and they use it on the PPC everyday. It is odd that amazon.com only sells one CF VGA card but they have over 30 BT GPS cards. I am sorry about all the time I wasted everyone. I did know know so many people still used wired Ethernet and VGA cards. All new PPC should have CF for those features.


Sean

[SeanH]

Let us know when you get that 4700, and buy the BT GPS. :)
I would never buy a PDA today that I expect to last years with 64MB of RAM. The 4700 only has 64MB. Most of the others that are coming soon have 128MB.

Sean

[Paragon]

Let us know when you get that 4700, and buy the BT GPS. :)
I would never buy a PDA today that I expect to last years with 64MB of RAM. The 4700 only has 64MB. Most of the others that are coming soon have 128MB.

Sean

...but it has a CF slot so you can have several gig of memory, and still have a slot to put all those SD hardware cards. ;)

Dave

[Sven Johannsen]

It is available just about everywhere in the USA. The speed is 200Kb and the price is $25 a month for unlimited through AT&T. Care to post a link to the plan and coverage map to back that up.

I have come to the conclusion that everyone in this forums topic carries a CAT5 cable with RJ45. Actually it's a ZipLinq cable. Takes up less room that way. If I forget it, the hotels that only have wired ethernet generally have them at the desk though.

They use it everyday when they are at home, at work or on the road for internet access. Don't need to, my home and the office is already wired...sort of like your car.

It is odd that amazon.com only sells one CF VGA card but they have over 30 BT GPS cards. What's odd is thinking that means something. Why are you comparing CF VGA options with BT GPSs. I could see a valid point if Amazon sold a dozen BT VGA options but only one CF one. In fact they sell no BT VGA options. If Amazon offerred a a lot more BT GPSs than CF GPSs that would be interesting as well. Thing is I can find a good number of CF GPSs but only one BT GPS (Using BT GPS & CF GPS as search strings). If the point was that more people want GPS (in some form) than VGA output from their PPC, WOW!, who would have thought?


It would be I am sorry about all the time I wasted everyone. I did know know so many people still used wired Ethernet and VGA cards. All new PPC should have CF for those features.
Sean

Well, I don't know if all new PPCs should, but thanks for thinking of those of us who have a requirement for them because there is no alternative. Or those of us who have a significant investment in them, purchased before alternatives existed. Or maybe even work in an environment that radios, BT, WiFi, or GPRS, are not allowed, but would still like to hook our PPCs to a network to transfer files or possibly do management.

In return I will suggest that some new PPCs not have CF slots for you. Are we good now?

[Kati Compton]

Fishie I am more frugal then most when it comes to buying new PDA’s and peripherals. I am still using a iPAQ 3650 that is four years old. Kati I do not own all those CF devices.
Uh... okay. You said "that I paid $xx for." about each of them. I hope you can understand my thinking that you bought them.


First of all I NEED my wired card and there is NO substitute for that, GPRS and especially EDGE is NOT available on most places of this planet.
It is available just about everywhere in the USA. The speed is 200Kb and the price is $25 a month for unlimited through AT&T.
Much of the planet is NOT the USA.

I have come to the conclusion that everyone in this forums topic carries a CAT5 cable with RJ45. They use it everyday when they are at home, at work or on the road for internet access.
My work and home desktops are wired, yes. For travel I have a combo phone/Ethernet cable all-in-one.

[Fishie]

One of the reasons I can afford a new PPC so often is becouse I DONT have to rebuy my peripherals all the time and yes when I do buy something I try to make it as future proof as possible, I do look for built in WiFi and built in bleutooth and whatever else.

Now it just looks to me like you resent CF because of all the money you've spent on it.
Fishie I am more frugal then most when it comes to buying new PDA’s and peripherals. I am still using a iPAQ 3650 that is four years old. Kati I do not own all those CF devices. I was trying to create a list of every possible CF card a person might have. This is a list of what I have bought over the last four years. Most of it was bought four years ago.

iPAQ 3650 $499
CF Sleeve $69 (that I made real small www.mbu.com/ipaq/ )
1GB Microdrive $499
Serial Pharos GPS $129
Xicom Wired Ethernet card $79 (I have not used that card in two years)
Abicom WiFi Card $39 (I got it on sale two years ago)


Man you must be crying out loud over the fact that all PPCs that incorporate what you want come with CF slots.
Nobody is shipping a PDA with VGA, WiFi and BT with or with out CF yet


First of all I NEED my wired card and there is NO substitute for that, GPRS and especially EDGE is NOT available on most places of this planet.
It is available just about everywhere in the USA. The speed is 200Kb and the price is $25 a month for unlimited through AT&T.

I have come to the conclusion that everyone in this forums topic carries a CAT5 cable with RJ45. They use it everyday when they are at home, at work or on the road for internet access. Best Buy used to sell wired Ethernet cards off the self but they stopped for some odd reason. From what I read here it sounds like they are coming back strong. I also get the feeling that everyone owns a CF VGA card and they use it on the PPC everyday. It is odd that amazon.com only sells one CF VGA card but they have over 30 BT GPS cards. I am sorry about all the time I wasted everyone. I did know know so many people still used wired Ethernet and VGA cards. All new PPC should have CF for those features.


Sean

No but every single device that you want that has a VGA screen, bt AND WiFi that has been anounced and will be out within the next few weeks has a CF slot, not a single machine has been anounced yet that foregoes the CF slot for a second sd slot and chances are that that wont happen anytime soon either.

High spec devices are for power users and the enterprise and apparently ALL manufacturers agree that to get those customers to fork out top dollar the machines require a CF slot or the customers wont even consider it.

For the umpteenth time in this thread and spread over 12 pages already you have been shown to be ignorant to the isseu at hand.

[SeanH]

High spec devices are for power users and the enterprise and apparently ALL manufacturers agree that to get those customers to fork out top dollar the machines require a CF slot or the customers wont even consider it.
I would not consider a person that still has to use CF wired Ethernet or a VGA card a power user. That seems to be the only people that really need a CF slot. It been posted over and over that people want to keep there CF devices because of the huge investment they have yet most of the CF cards they have are no longer needed with a new PPC. I know everyone’s needs are different but I am one of those freaks that live in the USA that has technology around me all the time. I still use wired Ethernet everyday, but not on any of my portable devices like a PDA, Laptop or cell phone.. I have one or more 1GB ports in every room in my house. The average transfer rate is 22MB. I can move a DVD ISO from one machine to another in less then 3 minutes. At work they still use wired Ethernet for all the desktops but there are many WiFi access points for wireless access. I work for a company that has a great IT department and keeps everything secure. Most customers I go to offer free WiFi in there lobby. Like I mentioned I travel a lot. This is my schedule for the next few months.

Chicago 08-30-04 – 09-01-04
Phoenix 09-11-04 – 09-15-04
Austin 10-11-04 – 10-15-04
Huston 10-25-04 – 10-29-04
Huston 11-09-04 – 11-12-04

I am sure my GPRS connection will work in all those cities. I know everyone’s needs are different but people that work for companies that have IT departments that can not figure out how to make WiFi secure are not power users. I have been in military accounts that use WiFi. I do not have access as a visitor but they use it.

Sean

[Wiggster]

It been posted over and over that people want to keep there CF devices because of the huge investment they have yet most of the CF cards they have are no longer needed with a new PPC.

No, only bluetooth and wifi aren't needed. Anything else is not included, like memory, cameras, radio, etc, AND WOULD HAVE TO BE REPLACED. You think a "frugal" guy like you would know that losing that big investment isn't economically sound. And no one here cares if you say they can live without one of their CF-only cards, since they determine their needs, not you.

[Kati Compton]

I would not consider a person that still has to use CF wired Ethernet or a VGA card a power user.
.
.
.
I know everyone’s needs are different but people that work for companies that have IT departments that can not figure out how to make WiFi secure are not power users. I have been in military accounts that use WiFi. I do not have access as a visitor but they use it.
So, people are or are not power users depending on their work constraints, not on what they do or what to do with their devices?

And you'd probably say that doing a whole presentation off a PDA makes someone NOT a power user, too.

I think you're stretching it.

[PetiteFlower]

You think that in 10 years CF peripherals are more likely to still be in use then Bluetooth peripherals?

Basically, yes, because I think it is CERTAIN that people will still be using their CF devices. It's only POSSIBLE(maybe even LIKELY, but not DEFINITE) that BT will be in use.

In 10 years it might be BT ver 8 but I am sure it will be backward compatible

You seem awfully optimistic.

[Fishie]

There we have it people, I am NOT a power user, HP is WRONG, ASUS is WRONG, Toshiba is WRONG, Siemens is WRONG, the enterprise customers are WRONG becouse SeanH said so.

[apanther28]

I can't put a 4GB microdrive in a SD/MMC slot.

[Sven Johannsen]

I can't put a 4GB microdrive in a SD/MMC slot.

You don't need to. You need to get that 10G BT microdrive that they are thinking about building. You need to future proof your PPC by only buying peripherals that will be available in the future. It's more economical that way anyway. :wink:

[Jereboam]

This is getting a bit Python-esque.
:D
J'bm

[Wiggster]

Ni! it's not.

I mean... No it's not.

[Jereboam]

Can you get CF shrubberies?

:lol:

J'bm

[Fishie]

We should unleash the bunny on SeanH

[Paragon]

Ah, the number of gig you should get is FIVE, not four, nor three, but FIVE. FIVE is the number. ;)

Dave

[PetiteFlower]

Seven is RIGHT out!

[Steven Cedrone]

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/assets/common/FileObject/mp3.gif I just had to do it... :wink: (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/media/users/238/mp13.mp3)

Steve

[Duncan]

This is why Python should never have been exported to the US...! :roll: :wink:

[Jereboam]

Aaaaah! What have I started!! :D

Get back - it's too perilous!

Run away!

J'bm

[Jereboam]

NOBODY expects the Technology Inquisition!

Our chief weapon is cost...cost and size...size and cost....

Our two weapons are size and cost...and ruthless cross-device compatibility....

Our *three* weapons are size, cost, and ruthless cross-device compatibility...and an almost fanatical devotion to the iPaq....

Our *four*...no...

*Amongst* our weapons....

Amongst our weaponry...are such diverse elements as size, cost....

I'll come in again.

[Kati Compton]

I'll come in again.
:rotfl:

[KimVette]

Let me see if I understand the thread (just read through 13 pages worth of CRAP:

SeanH wants me to dump almost $2,000 worth of PCMCIA and CF peripherals. Why? because he doesn't think CF is worth a damn.

I can't use wired ethernet any more. Why? Because SeanH thinks I should use bluetooth. So tell me, SeanH, how the *BLEEP* do I use my PocketPC as an ultra-portable packet sniffer? Every WAP I've used has been a switching hub, not a passive hub. So, now the PocketPC is useless for Ethereal.

I like my 5GB PCMCIA hard drive, thankyouverymuch. I LIKE my uber-slim iPAQ when I don't need the expansion capability, and when I am running applications which require additional storage, I don't mind the extra bulk because hey: I don't need to lug around my laptop.

I LIKE my CF storage cards. Why? Because I can put them in a PCMCIA adapter in the laptop and run REAL disk utilities against them (CHKDSK, defrag, etc.).

I happen to LIKE my CF GPS card. It performs DARN well, thankyouverymuch.

SeanH, stop being a stubborn mule.

[Jeff Rutledge]

Please, as Kati has already stated, please keep the name calling in check. Thanks.

[Jereboam]

Awwww just when I thought I had defused the whole situation....

J'bm

[Jereboam]

AHA!

CF is indestructible (http://www.mobilemag.com/content/100/336/C3131/)....

Try finding your itty bitty super miniature storage card in that lot...

:rofl:

[Steven Cedrone]

Wow, and it was a SanDisk as well! :wink:

Steve

[Fishie]

SeanH OWNED.

[alwindeclercq]

I read something about "no phones during the last 2 years had a CF slot" in this topic. Offcourse there still are Pocket PC phones that have a CF slot! Even now there are both the Eten P700 and an expansion pack for the XDA 2 with CF and VGA-out.

BTW, I also like this: http://www.semsons.com/semsons-inc/comflastopcc.html

[alwindeclercq]

SeanH, shouldn't you start predicting a great future for RS-MMC, miniSD, TransFlash or μcard

:lol:

[alwindeclercq]

Another reason to use CompactFlash:
It might be that the 2GB MMC from Pretec is the fastest flash memory card, but SD slot in Pocket PC's is a lot slower than the CF slot and Hitachi Microdrives are even faster than Pretec MMC flash.

[Fishie]

Auch.

[Ed Hansberry]

So how does everyone feel having a few IQ points sucked out of their heads for participating in this thread? :mrgreen:

I'm heading to CompUSA to buy another CF card as a potential collectors item.

[Steven Cedrone]

Without a doubt, this thread was tailor made for Jason's classic line, now forever immortalized in my sig...

"My eyes are rolling back in my head so far I can see my grey matter bubbling and frothing from reading this thread..bleh"

:wink:

Steve

[KimVette]

For my next device I'll be avoiding Bluetooth and SDIO since eventually a better standard will come along. I'll only buy devices for that future standard since I don't want my money to be wasted. . . wait a sec, eventually THAT standard will be superceded by an even better one. etc.

[SeanH]

I had a discussion with a lot of people in this topic http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=31427&highlight=
most claimed they did not have access to GPRS.
That isn't actually true - anyone following the link to that thread will see that was not the point people were making.
I made it a point that you no longer need CF if your PDA has BT and one or two SD slots.

It was made clear to me there are a lot of PPC users that still use wired Ethernet or 56Kb wired modems. These people do not want to spend the money to invest in a Bluetooth 56Kb modem. You can not but a BT or SD wired Ethernet card. This same group of people traveled a lot in places with out WiFi.

I was really shocked that so many people did not have access to GPRS. Then I read this topic. http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=31880&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
67% of the people would not buy a PDA with out Bluetooth. Most are using Bluetooth with a GPRS internet connection.

We talked about CF compared to SD flash cards. At 1GB and below there price difference today is less the 5 % between the two devices. 1GB SD and CF memory cards are about $100 today.

The only technology that has been brought up that can not be used with a PDA with BT and one or two SD slots is a VGA adapter. Based on the posts here there are a lot of people using VGA adapters with there PDA. I am sorry I can not address that issue. The millions of people that use a VGA adapters everyday will have to make sure they get a PDA with a CF slot.

Sean

[Fishie]

Dont worry, we will :mrgreen:

Oh and whats this IC in the specs of the Dell x50?
My my its a CF slot.

All higher end devices seem to come with one, I wonder why that is.
Could it be becouse people have a vested intrest in the format and its a requirement in the enterprise markets?

Nah cant be, surely people who want to FUTURE PROOF their devices as well as the enterprise dont care about CF and instead wish everything was made for Transflash.

0X

[SeanH]

I know a lot of new VGA PDA’s have CF slots. I just do not know what people are going to put in them. What is that magic CF card that “Enterprise” user needs that the rest of the world does not need? When I think if a Enterprise user I think of Corp. America that uses there PDA to get on a corp network to look up data like inventory, today’s sales, profit levels, data base functions like pricing on a item. You can get connected to the “Enterprise” corp network using WiFi and a VPN.

If you read articles over the years PDA do very poorly in the Enterprise market place. They use laptops. I work for a company with 18 billion in sales. All field sales and management are equipped with IBM laptops. A lot of people have PPC’s but they bought them as a personal purchase and use them for both work and home.

Sean

[dh]

If you read articles over the years PDA do very poorly in the Enterprise market place. They use laptops. I work for a company with 18 billion in sales. All field sales and management are equipped with IBM laptops. A lot of people have PPC’s but they bought them as a personal purchase and use them for both work and home

So, I should tell the three companies I sold over 350 Symbol Pocket PCs to today that they are wrong and need laptops instead?

I think not. It would be fun watching a guy driving a fork truck while scanning barcodes and uploading the data with a laptop.

Don't confuse the toys with their little SD slots with mobile computers for real world applications.

[SeanH]

Symbol Pocket PCs are often equipped with bar code scanners and RF links to data bases. I would not put those in the category as enterprise use. I would say that is a common factory application. Or application for inventory management place like at Home depot. I do not want to argue the differences between enterprise or vertical markets.

Symbol makes a great device that integrates a lot of features in to one unit and sells the same device for many years. We are not talking about that kind of PDA, we are talking about main stream PDA’s that incorporate the latest technology. We are talking about the PDA’s you see in the best prices list on pocketpcthoughts.

Sean

Example

• iPAQ 1945 Pocket PC
• iPAQ 2210 Pocket PC
• iPAQ 4150 Pocket PC
• iPAQ 4350 Pocket PC
• iPAQ 5555 Pocket PC
• Asus MyPal A620 Pocket PC
• Dell Axim X3 Pocket PC
• Toshiba e800 Pocket PC
• Toshiba e400 Pocket PC
• Toshiba e405 Pocket PC
• Viewsonic V36 Pocket PC

[Islander]

Well.

Here's my input. I am not a Pocket Pc Pro...yet. Gimme time. :) Up til now, I have been a full-size tech...but I love the PPC. -I like carrying My Precious with me. Hard to do that with an Antec sx1040 server case and 21" CRT.

I am not quite an average Joe PPC buyer... I did more research than your less geek-ish user...2 months of constant reading, comparing and stewing over every model out, and coming out.

I have had my new PPC for less than a month, and I am very satisfied. Just wish I could utilize the wifi. One day...<sigh> :puppydogeyes: Highspeed will come. -Still on dial up...no hotspots within Hours of driving. Should I really spend $ on that WAP? :bad-words: I digress.

As you can see in my sig, I own an Asus A716. :ppclove: Not an iPaq 4150...was a close race. The main selling point, for me, after the battery capacity, was the CF slot. I wanted SD and CF. So I shelled out my cash for it. Sure, I can use the CF slot for add-ons, cam etc...(that I could have, built in on the new devices, if I had waited...but then again, it would have cost more,) and I would have compromised other aspects, (-back to battery again.)

-And, one point I will mention, I can remove the CF camera if needed, in a Camera Free area...hard to do with an hx4700...(I didnt read all 15 pages, sorry if that was covered already)

-I have a digital cam that takes CF, so I am using the reader, and cards, swappable.

I went shopping for another storage card today, I have a 256 meg SD card in it now, and a smallish CF. I pondered...Should I buy another, bigger SD? I would have to take out the 256, which has most of my games on it... and pic files. So no, I decided to get a 512 CF card. I want to use the CF card for music files primarily, to switch at will, and the SD as a quasi HDD.

I have a 256 CF card and a 16 meg CF card for the cam, so I can swap them around in a tune emergency.

I like having the 2 slots for various reasons, none of which are overly technical, just make sense for me. And obviously for the manufacturers of the new devices, eh? :takethat:

[Fishie]

I know a lot of new VGA PDA’s have CF slots. I just do not know what people are going to put in them. What is that magic CF card that “Enterprise” user needs that the rest of the world does not need? When I think if a Enterprise user I think of Corp. America that uses there PDA to get on a corp network to look up data like inventory, today’s sales, profit levels, data base functions like pricing on a item. You can get connected to the “Enterprise” corp network using WiFi and a VPN.

If you read articles over the years PDA do very poorly in the Enterprise market place. They use laptops. I work for a company with 18 billion in sales. All field sales and management are equipped with IBM laptops. A lot of people have PPC’s but they bought them as a personal purchase and use them for both work and home.

Sean




Warehouse managment amongst others, make no mistake about it the consumer handhelds we can buy roll from the same assembly lines as the corporate machines that do require these things, thats why they include CF becouse companies like Symbol require a base machine that has CF, redeveloping a corporate only machine that has it would be too costly.

Oh BTW its not just a lot of VGA PPCs that have CF slots, its ALL of em.

[SeanH]

Warehouse managment amongst others, make no mistake about it the consumer handhelds we can buy roll from the same assembly lines as the corporate machines that do require these things, thats why they include CF becouse companies like Symbol require a base machine that has CF, redeveloping a corporate only machine that has it would be too costly.
I am not sure what you mean by roll from the same assembly lines. Are you saying that HP, Asus, Dell, Toshiba, Viewsonic and Symbol machines all have their PCB boards populated and final assembly work is done in the exact same location. We all know that is not true.

Are you implying that a hand held built for the main stream consumer market like the ones I listed earlier

• iPAQ 1945 Pocket PC
• iPAQ 2210 Pocket PC
• iPAQ 4150 Pocket PC
• iPAQ 4350 Pocket PC
• iPAQ 5555 Pocket PC
• Asus MyPal A620 Pocket PC
• Dell Axim X3 Pocket PC
• Toshiba e800 Pocket PC
• Toshiba e400 Pocket PC
• Toshiba e405 Pocket PC
• Viewsonic V36 Pocket PC

are designed with the same factors as a symbol device? They are not. There are two types of markets Intel sells there XScale CPU’s into. They are called the consumer market and the embedded market.

Products like the PDA’s listed above fall into the consumer market. Theses devices have a very fast time to market, 3-4 months including FCC approval. These devices are designed with ultra low cost in mind. These devices have a very short life span about 15 months. Most the components in the devices have a short life as well. Example the SA1110 used in the first generation devices has been obsolete for 2 years now. These devices are built in very high quantity often in China were labor is cheaper.

Products like Symbol, SightSYS, Cogent, Phytec, fall into the embedded market. These products often take a year to develop. Low cost is important but longevity of the parts on the board are a lot more important. The devices often have a product life of five or more years. These products are often built in the USA or Mexico.

These are the device that Symbol offers

PDT 8100 - CPU SA1110, Expansion 2 CF. (Intel stopped shipping the SA1110 15 months ago)
PDT 8000 – CPU PXA250, Expansion 2 CF
PPT 2800 – CPU SA1110, Expansion none (Intel stopped shipping the SA1110 15 months ago)
PPT 8800 – CPU PXA250, Expansion 1 CF
MC9000-G – CPU PXA255, Expansion none

There are no PXA270 CPU’s in any of them. The PXA270 has been available for development for almost a year now.

Sean

[KimVette]

I made it a point that you no longer need CF if your PDA has BT and one or two SD slots.

Sean

And yet AGAIN seanh has failed to read numerous posts, and is pulling stuff out of his -- -HEYHEYHEY, I'll be nice -- er, I mean selectively reading and understanding how people use their PocketPCs.

SeanH, maybe YOU don't need CF. but MANY of us do. You still have not addressed my packet sniffing scenario.

[Jereboam]

Oh BTW its not just a lot of VGA PPCs that have CF slots, its ALL of em.

Is this still going?

You didn't really respond to the quoted comment, conveniently, in either this last post or your previous ones.

You are clearly saying that your own "expertise" is more correct than the collective marketing strategy of most of the top Pocket PC manufacturers/brands?

That is immensely arrogant.

J'bm

[Ed Hansberry]

I made it a point that you no longer need CF if your PDA has BT and one or two SD slots.

I was in a hotel last month. CAT5 only. Explain how I get online without my CF CAT5 ethernet card. It was a resort in Brazil in the mountains. No cellular/GPRS access.

[SeanH]

Oh BTW its not just a lot of VGA PPCs that have CF slots, its ALL of em.

Is this still going?

You didn't really respond to the quoted comment, conveniently, in either this last post or your previous ones.

You are clearly saying that your own "expertise" is more correct than the collective marketing strategy of most of the top Pocket PC manufacturers/brands?

That is immensely arrogant.

J'bm
There are 3 new PDA’s coming out with VGA, BT and WiFi, the Asus 730, the HP 4700, and the Loox 720. It is true that all those new PDA’s have both CF and SD. All three of them. None are shipping today. Does this mean that every PDA after that will have CF? There was a time when all PDA’s had an option for a CF card three years ago. For some odd reason HP release devices like the 1910, 4350, and the 4150 with out a CF slot. Dell has a lot of PDA’s with out CF. HP has a lot of new PDA’s with out CF like the 1715, the 3115, and 3715. The majority of the new PDA being released do not have CF. If you read my very first post, I stated I would like a VGA PDA with BT, WiFi and no CF so it can be as small as the 4150.

After 16 pages of post the only card that can not be addressed with a PDA with BT, WiFi and one or two SD slots is a VGA card. I know there are millions of people that use a VGA card everyday and those people better hope CF will be here forever. The other thing people have posted that they have a $8 CF 128MB card with there music, and a $15 CF 256MB with there games and they do not want to invest $10 to replace the 128MB card with a SD or $18 to replace there 256MB card with a SD card.

Sean

[SeanH]

I was in a hotel last month. CAT5 only. Explain how I get online without my CF CAT5 ethernet card. It was a resort in Brazil in the mountains. No cellular/GPRS access.
There are expectations but read this topic.
http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=31880&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=5c8b0f80ed8d8284456eacb08e58b174
That is 6 pages of people the claim they use GPRS over BT all the time. Ed I know you still do not think Bluetooth is going to take off.

Sean

[SeanH]

SeanH, maybe YOU don't need CF. but MANY of us do. You still have not addressed my packet sniffing scenario.
I am sorry I did not address you packet sniffing scenario. Ethernet is protocol that broadcast a new destination address to all nodes on a network. Once a Ethernet switch determines the route table for a Ethernet port the information is no longer broadcast to all nodes it’s switched to that port. Wired or wirelss Ethernet sniffers can not sniff on a net work that uses switches. All wireless AP’s use a switch. If your office is still using 10Mb cards with 10Mb half duplex hubs your sniffer will work. Most people have upgraded to 10/100 network with switches. Your sniffer will not work on those networks.

Sean

[Sven Johannsen]

I made it a point that you no longer need CF if your PDA has BT and one or two SD slots.

I was in a hotel last month. CAT5 only. Explain how I get online without my CF CAT5 ethernet card. It was a resort in Brazil in the mountains. No cellular/GPRS access.

I can explain that Ed. You buy an ASUS Access Point. It is a wonderful little device that only costs about $60-$75, not much different than that CF ethernet card. The part that SeanH doesn't want to understand is that the AP and it's power supply are significantly bigger than the CF card. The BT modem and it's power supply (or charger) are significantly bigger than the CF modem. Heck I can even find a projector that has a BT or WiFi interface negating the need for that CF VGA card...but I'd have to carry it too. (And they are expensive)

It's not entirely a matter of cost Sean, it is also the convenience of being able to carry the connectivity or peripheral options without carrying a laptop case worth of accessories to support your PPC.

[SeanH]

I travel a lot. This week I was in Chicago, in two weeks I will be in Phoenix, in Nov I will be in Austin and Houston, then the first week if Nov I have to go back to Houston. I do not carry a Bluetooth AP, or a Bluetooth 56Kb modem. I carry my tiny little Nokia 6820 cell phone with Bluetooth and GPRS EDGE. When I am in a hotel that does not offer free WiFi or there are not 10 office building next to the hotel that have open WiFi access I use GPRS EDGE over Bluetooth for internet access. There are 6 pages of people that do the same here.

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=31880&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=5c8b0f80ed8d8284456eacb08e58b174

It took some time for Ethernet to take off, it took some time for WiFi to take off, it will take some time for GPRS to take off. Based on the post in that topic it is taking off well. Bluetooth has taken off also.

Sean

[Kati Compton]

When I am in a hotel that does not offer free WiFi or there are not 10 office building next to the hotel that have open WiFi access I use GPRS EDGE over Bluetooth for internet access. There are 6 pages of people that do the same here.
And I guess the people that don't have EDGE access everywhere they travel are just going to the wrong places, and should quit their jobs and redesign their vacations. And those that live in areas where GPS EDGE isn't available should just move to where it is. Because in the long run, a job change and a move will be a lot better than buying a CF peripheral now. Do I have that right?

[Islander]

<clip> And those that live in areas where GPS EDGE isn't available should just move to where it is. Because in the long run, a job change and a move will be a lot better than buying a CF peripheral now. Do I have that right?

Ahhh Heck! Why didn't I think of that... maybe that place I move to will also have those dandy $10 SD cards that I apparently don't want to invest in. :huh:

[SeanH]

And I guess the people that don't have EDGE access everywhere they travel are just going to the wrong places, and should quit their jobs and redesign their vacations. And those that live in areas where GPS EDGE isn't available should just move to where it is. Because in the long run, a job change and a move will be a lot better than buying a CF peripheral now. Do I have that right?
GPRS EDGE is 200Kb, GPRS is 64Kb. If you do not have EDGE you use GPRS. Over the last four years I was always jealous of all the cell networks over seas (outside the USA) because they were using GSM/GPRS for many years. GSM about two years ago started to become available in the USA. In the last 6 months GSM/GPRS has really taken off in the USA. T-Mobile is only GSM, ATT and Cingular are forcing are there users off TMDA and on to GSM. I still hear from many people that GSM is used a lot more over seas because it’s the only network they have. A friend of mine was in Australia for three weeks and he told me GSM/GPRS is all they use there.

Read the posts here

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=31880&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=9596d3fe7e81354596e00dc0fcbb50c5

Its 6 pages of people that use Bluetooth for internet access over GPRS and they use there GPS over Bluetooth.

Sean

[Fishie]

Warehouse managment amongst others, make no mistake about it the consumer handhelds we can buy roll from the same assembly lines as the corporate machines that do require these things, thats why they include CF becouse companies like Symbol require a base machine that has CF, redeveloping a corporate only machine that has it would be too costly.
I am not sure what you mean by roll from the same assembly lines. Are you saying that HP, Asus, Dell, Toshiba, Viewsonic and Symbol machines all have their PCB boards populated and final assembly work is done in the exact same location. We all know that is not true.

Are you implying that a hand held built for the main stream consumer market like the ones I listed earlier

• iPAQ 1945 Pocket PC
• iPAQ 2210 Pocket PC
• iPAQ 4150 Pocket PC
• iPAQ 4350 Pocket PC
• iPAQ 5555 Pocket PC
• Asus MyPal A620 Pocket PC
• Dell Axim X3 Pocket PC
• Toshiba e800 Pocket PC
• Toshiba e400 Pocket PC
• Toshiba e405 Pocket PC
• Viewsonic V36 Pocket PC

are designed with the same factors as a symbol device? They are not. There are two types of markets Intel sells there XScale CPU’s into. They are called the consumer market and the embedded market.

Products like the PDA’s listed above fall into the consumer market. Theses devices have a very fast time to market, 3-4 months including FCC approval. These devices are designed with ultra low cost in mind. These devices have a very short life span about 15 months. Most the components in the devices have a short life as well. Example the SA1110 used in the first generation devices has been obsolete for 2 years now. These devices are built in very high quantity often in China were labor is cheaper.

Products like Symbol, SightSYS, Cogent, Phytec, fall into the embedded market. These products often take a year to develop. Low cost is important but longevity of the parts on the board are a lot more important. The devices often have a product life of five or more years. These products are often built in the USA or Mexico.

These are the device that Symbol offers

PDT 8100 - CPU SA1110, Expansion 2 CF. (Intel stopped shipping the SA1110 15 months ago)
PDT 8000 – CPU PXA250, Expansion 2 CF
PPT 2800 – CPU SA1110, Expansion none (Intel stopped shipping the SA1110 15 months ago)
PPT 8800 – CPU PXA250, Expansion 1 CF
MC9000-G – CPU PXA255, Expansion none

There are no PXA270 CPU’s in any of them. The PXA270 has been available for development for almost a year now.

Sean

Yes that is EXACTLY what I am saying.
Manny of the industrial and MIL spec PPCs you see out there are reworked consumer PDA´s.
Two popular lines are the Ipaq 39xx and 5xxx lines.
They are reworked in different casing for the enterprise or places that require MIL spec.

These machines generally cost a few thousand dollars yet would cost manny thousands more if they had to be developped from the ground up instead of taking a bog standard PPC and reworking it to fit within certain specs.

It gets even worse.
You know the Intermec 6651 enterprise handheld PC running HHPC2000(WinCE 3) right?
Its sold by Intermec to enterprise customers for 1400$.
The exact same thing with no changes whatsoever is in fact a Sharp telios 7000 consumer handheld PC from Japan and in Japan it never cost more then 99.995 yen(wel under 1000$)

[Sven Johannsen]

I do not carry a Bluetooth AP, or a Bluetooth 56Kb modem. Yea, we know you don't use the technology that you tell people is the reason they don't need what they already have and are comfortable with.

I use GPRS EDGE over Bluetooth for internet access. And this helps Ed and all those that don't have Edge connectivity, how?

I was serious a few pages back when I asked if you would post a link to ATTs EDGE offerings that indicate pricing and coverage. You indicated around $20 for unlimited. Must be nice. What I find is $20 for 80M and only if "*To be eligible for the $20.99 and/or $25.98 discounted Wireless Data Service Plans you must be a Deluxe or Corporate Deluxe devCentral member. " The coverage map for Edge certainly doesn't cover much. ( http://www.attwireless.com/global/maps/coveragemap.jhtml?mapDisplay=datagsm/gprs&zip=98122&map=Y&mapMenu=Y&zipInput=Y) So for most of us it is standard GPRS, significantly less than even 56K, which we still have to pay for, when broadband internet could very well be free with a CF NIC, which barely takes any room in my backpack, and requires no additional power.

When I am in a hotel that does not offer free WiFi or there are not 10 office building next to the hotel that have open WiFi access I use GPRS EDGE over Bluetooth for internet access. There are 6 pages of people that do the same here. And there are 16 pages of folks that disagree with your assertion that they don't need CF slots here. How is that less compelling than the other thread?

What it comes down to is I'm not going to make a PPC purchasing decision based on whether you think CF cards are the spawn of Satan or not. It will be based on my requirements, my budget, my situation, my use. So there :razz: :)

[Fishie]

Oh BTW its not just a lot of VGA PPCs that have CF slots, its ALL of em.

Is this still going?

You didn't really respond to the quoted comment, conveniently, in either this last post or your previous ones.

You are clearly saying that your own "expertise" is more correct than the collective marketing strategy of most of the top Pocket PC manufacturers/brands?

That is immensely arrogant.

J'bm
There are 3 new PDA’s coming out with VGA, BT and WiFi, the Asus 730, the HP 4700, and the Loox 720. It is true that all those new PDA’s have both CF and SD. All three of them. None are shipping today. Does this mean that every PDA after that will have CF? There was a time when all PDA’s had an option for a CF card three years ago. For some odd reason HP release devices like the 1910, 4350, and the 4150 with out a CF slot. Dell has a lot of PDA’s with out CF. HP has a lot of new PDA’s with out CF like the 1715, the 3115, and 3715. The majority of the new PDA being released do not have CF. If you read my very first post, I stated I would like a VGA PDA with BT, WiFi and no CF so it can be as small as the 4150.

After 16 pages of post the only card that can not be addressed with a PDA with BT, WiFi and one or two SD slots is a VGA card. I know there are millions of people that use a VGA card everyday and those people better hope CF will be here forever. The other thing people have posted that they have a $8 CF 128MB card with there music, and a $15 CF 256MB with there games and they do not want to invest $10 to replace the 128MB card with a SD or $18 to replace there 256MB card with a SD card.

Sean

No just NO.
YOU said and made it a point that CF was redundant, we argued for 17 pages that that was not the case and I pointed out that from the PPC´s designed for power US that all of em come with CF slots so the manufacturers heed the enterprises call to include them.
You conveniently disgard this and act as if the entire power user and enterprise market is flat out wrong.
We gave you way more reasons why we want CF slots FOR NOW in our devices and you again disregard them witouth giving an adequate reply and instead act as if we all have a magic memory tree, have worldwide acces to GPRS and WiFi and wouldnt mind disregarding what we have for new things which we at the moment lack.

You are incredibly arrogant and idiotic and to make your farce complete you dont even have bleutooth yourself.

[SeanH]

Yes that is EXACTLY what I am saying.
Manny of the industrial and MIL spec PPCs you see out there are reworked consumer PDA´s.
Two popular lines are the Ipaq 39xx and 5xxx lines.
They are reworked in different casing for the enterprise or places that require MIL spec.
That is a really bad way to go to market. The 39XX is not in production and soon the 5XXX will no long become available. There are many companies that create boards around the size of a PDA for that market. They designed for longer life cycles and they are meant for the markets you are talking about. The all run PPC or Win CE 4 and offer board support packages. Ripping apart a consumer device to prove proof of concept is great. Having to build hundreds or thousands of units year after year is not recommended with the guts of a consumer PDA.

Sean

[Fishie]

Yes that is EXACTLY what I am saying.
Manny of the industrial and MIL spec PPCs you see out there are reworked consumer PDA´s.
Two popular lines are the Ipaq 39xx and 5xxx lines.
They are reworked in different casing for the enterprise or places that require MIL spec.
That is a really bad way to go to market. The 39XX is not in production and soon the 5XXX will no long become available. There are many companies that create boards around the size of a PDA for that market. They designed for longer life cycles and they are meant for the markets you are talking about. The all run PPC or Win CE 4 and offer board support packages. Ripping apart a consumer device to prove proof of concept is great. Having to build hundreds or thousands of units year after year is not recommended with the guts of a consumer PDA.

Sean

Yet thats the way it has been in the past, right now and future development is still taking largely that form.
So you are right and the enterprise markets are wrong yet again?

[SeanH]

Yet thats the way it has been in the past, right now and future development is still taking largely that form.
So you are right and the enterprise markets are wrong yet again?
That is not the way it’s been done in the past. Using the guts of an old PDA in a end product is foolish. I posted a lot of companies that build embedded boards for that market. They have been doing it for many years. Stop calling it the ‘enterprise market’ it’s the embedded market place. Microsoft calls there OS embedded CE for those applications not Enterprise CE.

Sean

[Fishie]

Yet thats the way it has been in the past, right now and future development is still taking largely that form.
So you are right and the enterprise markets are wrong yet again?
That is not the way it’s been done in the past. Using the guts of an old PDA in a end product is foolish. I posted a lot of companies that build embedded boards for that market. They have been doing it for many years. Stop calling it the ‘enterprise market’ it’s the embedded market place. Microsoft calls there OS embedded CE for those applications not Enterprise CE.

Sean

Fine we will call it EMBEDDED, have you seen this EMBEDDED device that Symbol still sells: http://www.mobileplanet.com/product.asp?cat%5Fid=102&cat%5Fname=Palm+OS+Devices&dept%5Fid=2682&pf%5Fid=MP913592&listing=1

Now what does that EMBEDDED device look like?

Same with the EMBEDDED PPC/WinCE devices they sell to this day, the ones you named in this thread previously, they all are built from the guts of other models and reflashed or reconfigured to fit the needs of companies ordering them.

[SeanH]

Same with the EMBEDDED PPC/WinCE devices they sell to this day, the ones you named in this thread previously, they all are built from the guts of other models and reflashed or reconfigured to fit the needs of companies ordering them.
You are wrong again.

Here is a board ½ the size of a PDA
http://www.phytec.com/sbc/32bit/pcpxa255.htm
This board will is based on a PXA250 and will run Win CE 4.0 (AKA embedded CE)

Here is another board in a very small formfactor
http://www.strategic-test.com/embedded_systems/
This board uses a PXA255 and will run Win CE 4.0 (AKA embedded CE)

These guys are the biggest supplier of embedded PXA2XX devices.
http://www.applieddata.net/defaultDevPlatform.asp

This board is about the same size as a PDA
http://www.applieddata.net/products_bitsyX.asp

This board has a lot of peripherals on board
http://www.arcom.com/pc104-xscale-viper.htm

Do you think that these companies buy HP PDA’s and resale the hardware inside? I hope not. You do not seem to have a good understanding of the industry.

Sean

[Ed Hansberry]

I was in a hotel last month. CAT5 only. Explain how I get online without my CF CAT5 ethernet card. It was a resort in Brazil in the mountains. No cellular/GPRS access.
There are expectations but read this topic.
http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=31880&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=5c8b0f80ed8d8284456eacb08e58b174
That is 6 pages of people the claim they use GPRS over BT all the time. Ed I know you still do not think Bluetooth is going to take off.
I use GPRS over BT all of the time. Which part of "It was a resort in Brazil in the mountains. No cellular/GPRS access." did you not understand?

[SeanH]

I use GPRS over BT all of the time. Which part of "It was a resort in Brazil in the mountains. No cellular/GPRS access." did you not understand?
I am sorry I thought you were like the many people in this topic that claimed no matter were they were GPRS was not available. If you had a PDA without a CF slot your only option would be that Bluetooth AP. It’s not a bad option as a temporary fix until all hotels offer WiFi access. They are really small Bluetooth AP’s out there.

Sean

[Fishie]

Same with the EMBEDDED PPC/WinCE devices they sell to this day, the ones you named in this thread previously, they all are built from the guts of other models and reflashed or reconfigured to fit the needs of companies ordering them.
You are wrong again.

Here is a board ½ the size of a PDA
http://www.phytec.com/sbc/32bit/pcpxa255.htm
This board will is based on a PXA250 and will run Win CE 4.0 (AKA embedded CE)

Here is another board in a very small formfactor
http://www.strategic-test.com/embedded_systems/
This board uses a PXA255 and will run Win CE 4.0 (AKA embedded CE)

These guys are the biggest supplier of embedded PXA2XX devices.
http://www.applieddata.net/defaultDevPlatform.asp

This board is about the same size as a PDA
http://www.applieddata.net/products_bitsyX.asp

This board has a lot of peripherals on board
http://www.arcom.com/pc104-xscale-viper.htm

Do you think that these companies buy HP PDA’s and resale the hardware inside? I hope not. You do not seem to have a good understanding of the industry.

Sean

Cute.

You are aware that these are not PDA´s right but modules in larger systems like ATMs, robotics in manufacturing, pass trough etcetera right?

Oh wait you are not, you assume that symbol etcetera are using these in their wrkfloor machines.

[Fishie]

Nice try at trying to change the discussion from HANDHELDS to system on chip solutions though.

[SeanH]

make no mistake about it the consumer handhelds we can buy roll from the same assembly lines as the corporate machines that do require these things, thats why they include CF becouse companies like Symbol require a base machine that has CF, redeveloping a corporate only machine that has it would be too costly.
You were wrong devices like the Symbol are manufactured as an embedded design. These devices are not designed or manufactured the same way a consumer device are. READ MY POST
Manny of the industrial and MIL spec PPCs you see out there are reworked consumer PDA´s.
Two popular lines are the Ipaq 39xx and 5xxx lines.
They are reworked in different casing for the enterprise or places that require MIL spec.
Again you’re wrong. The PDA like devices that are used in industrial applications are not pulled from the guts of old PDA’s. They use one of the many modules that I posted or they do a designed from scratch. READ MY POST
Yet thats the way it has been in the past, right now and future development is still taking largely that form.
So you are right and the enterprise markets are wrong yet again?
After reading my post you still think that embedded PPC or as you kept calling them enterprise PDA’s use the guts of old PDA’s. This is not true.
Same with the EMBEDDED PPC/WinCE devices they sell to this day, the ones you named in this thread previously, they all are built from the guts of other models and reflashed or reconfigured to fit the needs of companies ordering them.
In that post you tell me that the modules I mentioned use guts for old PDA’s. Again you’re wrong.
You are aware that these are not PDA´s right but modules in larger systems like ATMs, robotics in manufacturing, pass trough etcetera right?
You are correct these are modules. They contain the same type of CPU and peripheral you would find in a PDA. A lot of these modeles are smaller then the guts of a PDA. These modules are used for industrial / embedded applications. Not the guts of old PPC’s.

An embedded PPC will use PCMCIA cards or CF cards because they may have the need for things like 16 serial ports, or a propitiatory radio card, or other odd options.

This is not the market that we talking about in this topic. I am talking about mainstream consumer devices that I have posted over and over.

I really do believe you do not have a clue what you are talking about.

Sean

[dh]

I got confused and gave up when someone said Symbol didn't make Enterprise PDAs.
Someone should mention this to their marketing folks who seem to have gotten it wrong:
http://www.symbol.com/a_new_logo_155x831.gif

[Kati Compton]

And I guess the people that don't have EDGE access everywhere they travel are just going to the wrong places, and should quit their jobs and redesign their vacations. And those that live in areas where GPS EDGE isn't available should just move to where it is. Because in the long run, a job change and a move will be a lot better than buying a CF peripheral now. Do I have that right?
GPRS EDGE is 200Kb, GPRS is 64Kb. If you do not have EDGE you use GPRS. Over the last four years I was always jealous of all the cell networks over seas (outside the USA) because they were using GSM/GPRS for many years. GSM about two years ago started to become available in the USA. In the last 6 months GSM/GPRS has really taken off in the USA. T-Mobile is only GSM
I'll tell T-Mobile that you think I should use GSM. Maybe *that* will convince them that they should have more than ROAMING coverage in my area, and they will actually start selling plans to people in my zip code. I'm sure the six pages of people on a forum will convince them.

Oh, did I mention that I don't want to pay an extra $20-25 per month for GSM data that I don't need 85% of the year?

[Fishie]

Sean I clearly stated before that Symbol(as well as others like Recon) etcetera who make industry or MIL spec PDA´s use the same base as commercially available PDA´s, that is a FACT.
I only started calling the devices embedded when it seemed like you had a problem with me NOT calling these industrial PDA´s embedded devices and then you bring in a whole different set of machines.

The things you showed me are NOT used by Symbol or recon, they are used in the automotive industry, in robotics, in telecomunications, not by warehouse managers, factory workers, forklift drivers etcetera.

To underscore the point I was making I even linked to a Symbol branded Enterprise Handspring Visor which to this day can still be had brand new.

Again you shift the subject, dont reply to actual points made and try to twist us into whatever parralel dimension you live in.

The INDUSTRY and MIL spec HANDHELDS do NOT use these imbeded devices and instead are made of of the shelf parts around existing PPCs.

[SeanH]

Sean I clearly stated before that Symbol(as well as others like Recon) etcetera who make industry or MIL spec PDA´s use the same base as commercially available PDA´s, that is a FACT.
This is absolutely not true.

Got to this page

http://www.symbol.com/products/mobile_computers/mobile_ce_ppt2700.html

Those are all the models I posed that symbol makes.

5 out of the 6 pictures are PDA’s that symbol designed. They are not PDA’s that where ever sold to the consumer market. They do not use the guts of a consumer PDA. The one that looks like a normal PDA is a consumer PDA. Symbol designed a sleeve that fits on consumer PDA’s. The problem with that design is consumer PDA’s have a short life. You can no longer buy a consumer PDA that sleeve will fit on.

To underscore the point I was making I even linked to a Symbol branded Enterprise Handspring Visor which to this day can still be had brand new.
That was not a standard visor. That was a special design that either Symbol or visor did 8 years ago.

I have said many times in this topic I am talking about consumer devices. Consumer devices are not used in the embedded market place. I am talking about devices that you will find at Best Buy or Circuit City.

Sean

[Fishie]

Oh boy, they do use the same boards and innards of standard PPCs, same designs and are manufactured by the same companies after which Symbol or whoever modifies them.
Yes there are a few designs that dont use existing consumer products as their base, generally these cost twice what the other ones cost though.

THEY DO NOT USE THOSE EMBEDDED DESIGNS YOU LINKED TO.

I work for a US medical company called Beckton Dickinson, we sell and ship these things to hospitals and research centra around the world, I KNOW the products we sell.

[SeanH]

Oh boy, they do use the same boards and innards of standard PPCs, same designs and are manufactured by the same companies after which Symbol or whoever modifies them.
Yes there are a few designs that dont use existing consumer products as their base, generally these cost twice what the other ones cost though.

THEY DO NOT USE THOSE EMBEDDED DESIGNS YOU LINKED TO.

I work for a US medical company called Beckton Dickinson, we sell and ship these things to hospitals and research centra around the world, I KNOW the products we sell.
I am an electrical engineer and I work with many companies doing XScale designs. Most of the companies I work with use Windows CE 4.0 in there product. I work with companies that do component level PXA255 designs as well as companies that use modules. I work with many Medical companies that embedded Windows CE into there product. Most of the medical companies I work with use modules from some of the vendors I listed. I do not work with symbol but there volumes are very high for an embedded customer. I am 100% confident they do component level designs, they do not use modules and they certainly do not use the guts of old PPC’s.

If symbol was starting a design today they would go here to get started.
http://www.intel.com/design/embeddedpca/applicationsprocessors/302302.htm?iid=ipp_embed+proc_pxa270&

They would use this PDA reference design from Intel to get started,
http://www.intel.com/design/pca/applicationsprocessors/schems/278951.htm

They would go here for software
http://msdn.microsoft.com/embedded/prevver/ce.net/prodovwce.net/default.aspx

Here is a list of vendors Microsoft recommends for embedded Windows CE.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/embedded/usewinemb/ce/bsp/supbsps/default.aspx

Who PPC guts do you use? What do you do when they stop making models? If you put a 3600 series PDA in your product what do you do when they end of life it? Do you upgrade to the guts of a 3900 series? Every 15 months a new generation of PPC are created and the old ones are never sold again. You can not buy a 3600 series or 3900 series from HP. Most companies are aware of this and uses embedded modules. Any company that does not will learn real fast they are doing the wrong thing.

From what you posted it looks like your saying if Symbol wanted to start a new design based on the PXA270 they would go here.
http://www.bestbuy.com/

Sean

[Fishie]

Most of these do NOT use WinCE, they STILL use PPC 2k2 and PalmOS 4.1
Some use Win mobile 2k3 and some use WinCE.NET; those are minorities though and yes Symbol etcetera use standard PPC designs that share the guts of consumer PPCs.

Anyway you start another 20 page thread for that discusion and I will start one proclaiming the dead of SD cards as a viable storage format and sing the praises of Transflash and how machines that are future proof should have transflash.

Deal?

[nuka_t]

as for digicams using CF, they are transitioning to xD, and the s7000 has both. although when i used the cf in the s7000, it was much faster than sd on my pentax optio s. the xD card included was only 16 megs, so i didnt really get to see the speeds on that.

[SeanH]

Most of these do NOT use WinCE, they STILL use PPC 2k2 and PalmOS 4.1
Some use Win mobile 2k3 and some use WinCE.NET; those are minorities though and yes Symbol etcetera use standard PPC designs that share the guts of consumer PPCs.
I give up on you. I post link after link to support what I post. I provide fact after fact and you provide nothing. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Anyway you start another 20 page thread for that discusion and I will start one proclaiming the dead of SD cards as a viable storage format and sing the praises of Transflash and how machines that are future proof should have transflash.
You can start that SD to transflash thread. I think transflash is a great thing. It will make PDA’s smaller and I am all for that. Transflash is very new and is not shipping in any PDA’s or Cameras yet but I am sure it will. Four years ago PCMCIA was the cheapest way to buy a storage card for your PDA. The industry wanted smaller PDA’s so the industry migrated to CF. CF became the dominate form factor for memory. The industry still wanted smaller PDA’s so 2-3 years ago Palm and many PPC's moved to SD memory. Both are price parity with each other today and over the next 6 months you will find faster and cheaper SD cards. I am sure over the next 2-3 years you will see smaller PDA’s that will use devices like transflash to reduce size. If I had to buy a PDA today I would choose SD. If I had to buy a new PDA in 2-3 years I might choose transflash if it takes off. There are many people out there that do not like change and stick with old standards. I am sure there are people out there that still use PCMCIA memory cards in there PDA. I am sure there are still people out there that run win 3.11 or win 95 on there desktop. I am not one of those people.

Sean

[SeanH]

as for digicams using CF, they are transitioning to xD, and the s7000 has both. although when i used the cf in the s7000, it was much faster than sd on my pentax optio s. the xD card included was only 16 megs, so i didnt really get to see the speeds on that.
xD memory was created by companies like Fuji and Olympus so they can profit on memory sales. They license the technology to memory card manufactures and get royalties for xD sales. That is why xD pricing is always a lot more then other memory cards.

I am totally against that business model. I will never buy a camera with xD memory. The majority of the SLR cameras use CF memory. When SD memory becomes faster and is offered in larger densities then CF the SLR vendors will move to SD. Here is a link of a SD/MMC card that is faster then any CF card shipping today. http://www.dpreview.com/news/0405/04053101pretecmmc4.asp I have seen roadmaps for 16GB SD cards for Q2 2005. There are a lot mid to low range digital camera shipping with SD today and I am sure there will be more over time.

Sean

[dh]

as for digicams using CF, they are transitioning to xD, and the s7000 has both. although when i used the cf in the s7000, it was much faster than sd on my pentax optio s. the xD card included was only 16 megs, so i didnt really get to see the speeds on that.
Canon are by far the market leader for digital cameras and have just released their new line of products.

Every one is using CF memory. As resolution is increasing, storage capacity becomes more important and so far only the CF form factor has the memory size that makes sense.

Note that even Sony (shock - horror!!) are starting to include CF slots in their cameras these days.

[SeanH]

It is true Canon does have a lot of cameras that use CF. The also have camera’s that use SD. Here are a few.

The PowerShot A400
http://consumer.usa.canon.com/ir/controller?act=ModelTechSpecsAct&fcategoryid=145&modelid=10461

PowerShot SD10
http://consumer.usa.canon.com/ir/controller?act=ModelTechSpecsAct&fcategoryid=145&modelid=9478

PowerShot SD110
http://consumer.usa.canon.com/ir/controller?act=ModelTechSpecsAct&fcategoryid=145&modelid=9827

Sean

[Arqentus]

SeanH,

We already know that you don't like CF cards, but is it so hard for you to see, that CF are not dying out, but yet increasing in popularity ...

Every new VGA ppc is coming out with a CF slot, yes, a CF slot, no dual SD, no trippel SD, a CF slot ...

I think after 19 page's the arguments & proof that CF is hardly from dead ( and looks to be even increasing in popularity ).

Even 2GB CF card's are getting very nice price range already, while SD is still limited to 1GB ... Hell, i'm even seeing 4GB CF cards for 400 euro. And now with the release of 5GB seagate CF mini hd's ... tja ...


I agree that small in general is niceer ( less space, less weight ), but the electronics, flash production etc can't change everything to something that's 1/4 the size of a CF card...

You will see the same thing going on ... SD releases a 2 GB flashcard, CF releases a 8GB ( come to think about it, the 8GB already exist at the nice price range of 2000$ :) ). The smaller the flash memory get's, and the more they can fit on a SD card, even more they can fit on a CF card ...

Now, lets talk electronics:

Take a look at the new SD GPS locaters ... the SD card is so small, they can't place any of the electronics in there, resulting in the need for a very large top piece. Now, when i look at a CF GPS, i'm like "wow, carefull of breaky breaky time". But when i saw the first SD card's, you can't help but wonder when it's gone break, not if, but when ...

Problem is, most CF technology still has a part sticking out ( network 10/100mbits, gps, gsm/gprs etc ). Now, try to place that same electronics in a SD card ... unless somebody make's a miracle, and makes electronics 1/4 smaller, you are still stuck on CF for most things.


Note: i know you will want to say, but look, the CF gps are bigger then the SD one's ... true, becouse most are build around the idear of swindeling the GPS reciver behind the card, thus breventing it from breaking during handling. While the SD gps's i have seen, all have a big fixed part sticking out, and then a unfolding part under that.

Smaller doesent always mean better ...

I hope this helps. I know, i have as much chance of changing your mind then turning a bar of lead into gold, but hey, i like gold :)

[Fishie]

as for digicams using CF, they are transitioning to xD, and the s7000 has both. although when i used the cf in the s7000, it was much faster than sd on my pentax optio s. the xD card included was only 16 megs, so i didnt really get to see the speeds on that.
Canon are by far the market leader for digital cameras and have just released their new line of products.

Every one is using CF memory. As resolution is increasing, storage capacity becomes more important and so far only the CF form factor has the memory size that makes sense.

Note that even Sony (shock - horror!!) are starting to include CF slots in their cameras these days.

You are about 12 pages late with that point.

[SeanH]

We already know that you don't like CF cards, but is it so hard for you to see, that CF are not dying out, but yet increasing in popularity ...
I am not against CF and I have posted that many times. I have owned a CF 1GB microdrive for 4 years and paid $500 for it. I also own a CF WiFi card and a CF wired Ethernet card. All the cards work great. My point from the very being of this post through all 20 pages is I do not see a need to have a CF slot in a new PDA with WiFi and Bluetooth. One or two SD slots could be used for memory, WiFi could be used for networking and Bluetooth can be used for peripherals.
Every new VGA ppc is coming out with a CF slot, yes, a CF slot, no dual SD, no trippel SD, a CF slot ...
I posed this before in this thread
There are three new PDA’s coming out with VGA, BT and WiFi, the Asus 730, the HP 4700, and the Loox 720. It is true that all those new PDA’s have both CF and SD. All three of them. None are shipping today. Does this mean that every PDA after that will have CF? There was a time when all PDA’s had an option for a CF card three years ago. For some odd reason HP released devices like the 1910, 4350, and the 4150 with out a CF slot. Dell has a lot of PDA’s with out CF. HP has a lot of new PDA’s with out CF like the 1715, the 3115, and 3715. The majority of the new PDA being released do not have CF.
I think after 19 page's the arguments & proof that CF is hardly from dead ( and looks to be even increasing in popularity ).
It’s 20 pages of me answering the same post over and over and over again. As I posted before I would bet money there are no new CF peripheral cards being developed. There is no market for them now. The only new CF cards you will see are memory cards.
The smaller the flash memory get's, and the more they can fit on a SD card, even more they can fit on a CF card ...
That was the same argument people use to say about PCMCIA cards. We no not see PCMCIA cards in PDA anymore. In the next 6 months SD cards will ship in larger densities then CF. A CF cards need a controller chip plus the NAND Flash. A SD card just needs serial NAND flash. It was designed from day one for low size. CF came from PCMCIA and PCMCIA came from ISA slots in old PC’s.
Now, lets talk electronics:

Take a look at the new SD GPS locaters ... the SD card is so small, they can't place any of the electronics in there, resulting in the need for a very large top piece. Now, when i look at a CF GPS, i'm like "wow, carefull of breaky breaky time". But when i saw the first SD card's, you can't help but wonder when it's gone break, not if, but when ...

Problem is, most CF technology still has a part sticking out ( network 10/100mbits, gps, gsm/gprs etc ). Now, try to place that same electronics in a SD card ... unless somebody make's a miracle, and makes electronics 1/4 smaller, you are still stuck on CF for most things.
Again I keep posting the same thing over and over and over. People that own CF GPS units learn real fast of there short comings. A GPS needs a good view of the sky. A PPC with a CF GPS needs to stay on the dash of a car for it to work. Its hard to read when its on the dash of most cars. You can buy a ext antenna but that makes the solution even bigger. A CF GPS does a cold start everytime a the PDA is turned on. That means a 1-3 minute cold start time. A SD GPS will have all the same issues. A Bluetooth GPS is the way to go.

I have posted many times that there is no need to use SD for peripherals if your PDA has Bluetooth and WiFi.

Sean

[Wiggster]

My point from the very being of this post through all 20 pages is I do not see a need to have a CF slot in a new PDA with WiFi and Bluetooth. One or two SD slots could be used for memory, WiFi could be used for networking and Bluetooth can be used for peripherals.

It’s 20 pages of me answering the same post over and over and over again. As I posted before I would bet money there are no new CF peripheral cards being developed. There is no market for them now.
20 pages of the same things and you still don't get it? It doesn't matter if no CF devices are still being developed (even though a handful no-doubt ARE), they're still available to purchase. Stroll down CompUSA and see how many CF devices there are in the PDA aisle. If you're like mine, you'll find well more than a dozen. And good prices as well. But that's not the point. The point is people still HAVE the CF devices, and they still want to use them.

My dad used to work two full-time jobs to put my mother through college and to keep us out of poverty. So when his car went to the parking lot in the sky, he bought a slightly-old Ford Tempo. It was a diesel car. It was bought at the tail-end of the diesel consumer car lifetime. So shortly after buying it, not every gas station had diesel any more. Following your logic, because diesel was being retired, he should ditch the car entirely and buy a new one, even though we had no money to replace the car, diesel was far cheaper, and got upwards of 50 miles per gallon.

Just because technology is on the way to retirement, it doesn't mean everyone has to stop using it. But after 20 pages, you still can't get that.

[KimVette]

SeanH, maybe YOU don't need CF. but MANY of us do. You still have not addressed my packet sniffing scenario.
I am sorry I did not address you packet sniffing scenario. Ethernet is protocol that broadcast a new destination address to all nodes on a network. Once a Ethernet switch determines the route table for a Ethernet port the information is no longer broadcast to all nodes it’s switched to that port. Wired or wirelss Ethernet sniffers can not sniff on a net work that uses switches. All wireless AP’s use a switch. If your office is still using 10Mb cards with 10Mb half duplex hubs your sniffer will work. Most people have upgraded to 10/100 network with switches. Your sniffer will not work on those networks.

Sean

Hint: if you had a clue, you'd know that to sniff on a network, you either use a managed switch on which a port may be flagged as promiscuous, or you insert a passive hub into the segment coming off the switch. Again, no WAPs are passive hubs, so you're merely AVOIDING answering the question. Stop being intentionally obtuse and stubborn.

[SeanH]

20 pages of the same things and you still don't get it? It doesn't matter if no CF devices are still being developed (even though a handful no-doubt ARE), they're still available to purchase. Stroll down CompUSA and see how many CF devices there are in the PDA aisle. If you're like mine, you'll find well more than a dozen.
Outside of memory what CF device do you think would sell if you created a new improved version of a CF peripheral card? I can not think of any. All the new development that is being done is in Bluetooth peripherals.

CompUSA is a great example of what people buy CF cards for. Here is a link of all the accessories CompUSA sells for PDA’s.

http://www.compusa.com/products/products.asp?No=0&N=200666&CusaNe=200063

They sell WiFi CF cards, you will find a Bluetooth CF card, and there is a 56Kb CF modem card. There are no CF or Bluetooth GPS units. If you buy a new PDA with WiFi and Bluetooth built in you do not need a card? The 56Kb modem can be address with a Bluetooth version or GPRS.

It was bought at the tail-end of the diesel consumer car lifetime. So shortly after buying it, not every gas station had diesel any more. Following your logic, because diesel was being retired, he should ditch the car entirely and buy a new one, even though we had no money to replace the car, diesel was far cheaper, and got upwards of 50 miles per gallon.
I do not think comparing the very fast changing semiconductor market with fossil fuel is a good example. Nor do I understand what you posted. You can buy many 2004 diesel cars today and every gas station I go to offers diesel fuel.

Sean

[Fishie]

800.11G perhaps?

WiFiG CF cards are on their way, havent seen anything for SD at that speed yet.

[Darius Wey]

800.11G perhaps?

WiFiG CF cards are on their way, havent seen anything for SD at that speed yet.

Huh? You do mean 802.11G right? Otherwise, you're definitely talking about one network protocol I ain't ever heard before. :mrgreen:

[Fishie]

800.11G perhaps?

WiFiG CF cards are on their way, havent seen anything for SD at that speed yet.

Huh? You do mean 802.11G right? Otherwise, you're definitely talking about one network protocol I ain't ever heard before. :mrgreen:

Uh yeah, typo.

[dh]

It’s 20 pages of me answering the same post over and over and over again. As I posted before I would bet money there are no new CF peripheral cards being developed. There is no market for them now. The only new CF cards you will see are memory cards.
Sean
Hmmm.... I wouldn't bet too much. Socket are busy developing Compact Flash RFID readers and combined RFID/Barcode readers. I'm sure others are working on similar things as well.

[SeanH]

800.11G perhaps?

WiFiG CF cards are on their way, havent seen anything for SD at that speed yet.
PCMCIA and CF are not fast enough to support the speed of 802.11g. All 802.11g PCMCIA cards for laptops are not really PCMCIA cards they are called Cardbus cards. A Cardbus card is an extension of the PCI bus. If someone does come out with an 802.11g CF cards it will never support 54Mb.

Sean

[SeanH]

It’s 20 pages of me answering the same post over and over and over again. As I posted before I would bet money there are no new CF peripheral cards being developed. There is no market for them now. The only new CF cards you will see are memory cards.
Sean
Hmmm.... I wouldn't bet too much. Socket are busy developing Compact Flash RFID readers and combined RFID/Barcode readers. I'm sure others are working on similar things as well.
I would not doubt that. Those types of cards will exist for their niche market. I am sure they are working on Bluetooth versions as well. Socket has a lot of Bluetooth products now.

Sean

[Fishie]

We can do it people, lets beat the gues the movie quote thread.

[Darius Wey]

We can do it people, lets beat the gues the movie quote thread.

LOL! I think that one's starting to grow again, at a slow rate. :wink:

[Fishie]

Darnit.

[dh]

Socket has a lot of Bluetooth products now.
Sean
I like the fact that the Socket BT card has nothing sticking out of the CF slot. Very nice!
They also have an SD barcode reader that is rather cool. I'd be afraid of breaking it, but it's the only way to add barcode input if you don't have a CF slot.
These guys make really good products.

[KimVette]

Socket has a lot of Bluetooth products now.
Sean
I like the fact that the Socket BT card has nothing sticking out of the CF slot. Very nice!
They also have an SD barcode reader that is rather cool. I'd be afraid of breaking it, but it's the only way to add barcode input if you don't have a CF slot.
These guys make really good products.


See, the reason SeanH is so hot on SD devices and killing off CF is a variation of planned obsolescence. Any barcode reader, ethernet card, SCSI adapter, or other enterprise-level or data acquisition devices in SD format would be so fragile that they will EASILY break, and since that sort of failure is not considered normal wear and tear by the manufacturers, but to be abuse, the warranty will not cover such failures - and since the user will need the lost functionality restored, it would lead to repeat sales.

So, my guess? SeanH has a significant allocation of shares in a CF device manufacturers, and repeat sales are too low because CF is so darn rugged, he wants to see extremely fragile devices replace the rugged ones in order to create an additional revenue stream.

[SeanH]

See, the reason SeanH is so hot on SD devices and killing off CF is a variation of planned obsolescence. Any barcode reader, ethernet card, SCSI adapter, or other enterprise-level or data acquisition devices in SD format would be so fragile that they will EASILY break, and since that sort of failure is not considered normal wear and tear by the manufacturers, but to be abuse, the warranty will not cover such failures - and since the user will need the lost functionality restored, it would lead to repeat sales.
I have posted at least 30 times in this thread that I do not think SD peripherals are a good idea. Let me post this a few more times for you.

BLUETOOTH IS FOR PERIPHERALS !!!!!!
BLUETOOTH IS FOR PERIPHERALS !!!!!!
BLUETOOTH IS FOR PERIPHERALS !!!!!!
BLUETOOTH IS FOR PERIPHERALS !!!!!!

Sean

[Carlos]

Wow, 21 pages of this...
http://www.cbr1100xx.org/temp/smileys/smiley_dead_horse.gif

[Fishie]

Are they tenderising the horsemeat for consumption?

[PetiteFlower]

:frusty:

[Jereboam]

This whole CF thing is turning into my daily moment of light relief...

[yankeejeep]

Why are people getting so worked up about Connie Francis? There's just no accounting for taste...or storage and expansion standards. As long viable solutions appear in both formats, I'll buy SDIO and CF, and remain happy that my device uses both.

[Fishie]

:mrgreen:

[maximus]

CF is dead .. and is replaced by sony memory stinks.












:p :wink:

[nosmohtac]

I'm sorry SeanH, but I don't think you have presented a convincing argument. You keep saying the BT is for peripherals, but if I replaced all of my CF peripherals with BT peripherals, I would have more wires and batteries than I do now. By wires, I mean that everyone of the BT devices that I would pair with, will need their own charger. I would also have to have a brick of a High capacity battery to get any kind of life out of my PPC while having the BT radio on all of the time.

I had to add my .02, after reading 22 pages of this nonsense.

[Fishie]

And I aplaud you for it.

More people should come forward and do what you just did.

Together we can beat the gues the movie quote thread.

Hope is on the way.

[nosmohtac]

And I aplaud you for it.

More people should come forward and do what you just did.

Together we can beat the gues the movie quote thread.

Hope is on the way.

:lol: Well, I'm not trying to beat any other thread, but WOW!!! I'm sure glad SeanH is not in charge of product development for any of the PDA (or any other Consumer Electronics) manufacturers. It's quite apparent that many more people are for a CF slot than against.

[Fishie]

Indeed

[elbowz]

Sorry Seanh I think your argument is flawed, even though there is validity in some of your points.

For most new users coming to a PDA for the first time there probably isn't an essential need for a CF card slot if they have a dual wireless device.

However, and this is where I think your argument runs off the rails, I don't think you can extrapolate from this that device manufacturers should stop making and customers stop buying devices with CF slots. There are a number or reasons why people want or need CF slots, including, but not limited to:

1. Users upgrading a PPC who already have CF cards and don't want to replace them with expensive SD or Bluetooth devices.
2. Users who need functionality which is only available in CF format (Wired networking and VGA Presentation for example)
3. People who want a dual slot device to be able to use a memory card at the same time as any other card.

I'll also add that because you travel a lot and visit businesses does not in itself make you a power user. Neither does the fact that someone doesn't travel and has a need for a wired connection disqualify them from being the same.

In general I don't think you've convinced many people who've posted to this thread, so perhaps you'll just have to console yourself with a little chuckle everytime you see someone with a dual slot device...

[SeanH]

In general I don't think you've convinced many people who've posted to this thread, so perhaps you'll just have to console yourself with a little chuckle every time you see someone with a dual slot device...
Only time will tell. When the first iPAQ was released in 2000 PCMCIA memory and peripherals were the most popular form factor. People had the same augment that many have here. They said they own many PCMCIA cards and they do not want to make the new investment in new CF cards. CF still took off. As new technologies emerge there will be less and less need for dial up or wired Ethernet. GRM/GPRS is here now with huge coverage in the US and better coverage outside of the US. Based on the number of vendors that make VGA cards (one maybe two) it’s not something that many people use. If you own a WiFi or Bluetooth card you will no longer need it with a new PDA. 5 out of the 6 new HP iPAQ’s have both WiFi and Bluetooth as a standard feature.

I do think many people have a huge investment in CF memory cards. Three years ago a 1GB flash card was around $1000. Today you can buy that same density in CF or SD for 1/10 the price (less then $100). That trend in memory density and price has not changed over the last 20 years. The first IBM PC had 384KB of memory and you added 128MB to bring it up to 512KB. Today 1GB is standard in most PC’s. That’s 2000 times more memory.

Sean

[SeanH]

I was reading slickdeals.net and found this 1GB SD card for $69.88.

http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=3960168

512MB SD is $39.94 at amazon.com

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000AKVJC/ref%3Dnosim/slickdeals/002-2781843-2740846

Sean

[Kati Compton]

512MB SD is $39.94 at amazon.com
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000AKVJC/ref%3Dnosim/slickdeals/002-2781843-2740846

Nice price - I'd get one if it weren't SanDisk.

[elbowz]

Only time will tell. When the first iPAQ was released in 2000 PCMCIA memory and peripherals were the most popular form factor. People had the same augment that many have here. They said they own many PCMCIA cards and they do not want to make the new investment in new CF cards. CF still took off.

Yes and PCMCIA is now almost non-existent in the PDA market. Thing is though, that PCMCIA was always almost non-existent in the PDA market. Casio and HP were selling loads of devices with CF long before Compaq started selling PCMCIA jackets for the iPaq... I guess CF will die, but I don't think its going to be a quick death.

As new technologies emerge there will be less and less need for dial up or wired Ethernet.

True, but for people who work in certain fields (health, military, local government, for example) this will be a looonnnggg time happening. Certain fields are always going to be wary of the security concerns of wireless...

GRM/GPRS is here now with huge coverage in the US and better coverage outside of the US.

GPRS is incredibly expensive for what is still a pretty slow technology. Vodafone's Websaver 10MB/month tariff is £27. With payg modem internet deals at 1p/min - on a 56k modem (at about 250kb/min) that works out at 4p/MB. Sure being able to get connected via GPRS wherever you have a signal is good, but being able to use a phone line works out significantly cheaper.

Without a CF card slot you're either going to have to carry a BT Modem (£70ish) or an IR Modem (£40ish) both of which add significantly to the amount of bulk you're carrying...

Not that I'm saying that GPRS prices won't come down significantly, but they've got to fall a long way before the convenience of data access anywhere overcomes the price difference. I pay £4/MB for GPRS on PAYG, which means I can pick up data when I have to. That data has to be pretty valuable to make me pay 100 times more for it though...

Based on the number of vendors that make VGA cards (one maybe two) it’s not something that many people use. If you own a WiFi or Bluetooth card you will no longer need it with a new PDA. 5 out of the 6 new HP iPAQ’s have both WiFi and Bluetooth as a standard feature.

As long as Bluetooth or Wifi projectors take off in a big way that is true. On the other hand I cover three sites with a dozen projectors of varying ages. None have Wifi or BT connectivity. If Wifi or BT projectors do become the standard (and I'm not convinced they will) it will take a hell of a long time to happen...

I do think many people have a huge investment in CF memory cards. Three years ago a 1GB flash card was around $1000. Today you can buy that same density in CF or SD for 1/10 the price (less then $100). That trend in memory density and price has not changed over the last 20 years. The first IBM PC had 384KB of memory and you added 128MB to bring it up to 512KB. Today 1GB is standard in most PC’s. That’s 2000 times more memory.

Okay I think everyone can see that memory drops in price/MB over time so flash memory is a lot cheaper now than it was even six months ago. But the £100 I'm not spending by re-using the 1GB CF card I already have pays for a more powerful PDA than I would otherwise be able to afford, or some peripherals or perhaps a weekend away with my wife (which makes her less likely to baulk at the purchase price of a new PDA!)

And the way things are going in three years time when its new PDA time again SD cards will be 20GB for £100, wireless networks will be ubiquitous and someone will be explaining to us why we don't need SD cards anymore... :D

[Fishie]

We dont need SD now, everyone should transition everything to Transflash, SD is and has always been a redundant formt :mrgreen:

[Kati Compton]

If you're trying to bait SeanH it's not going to work. See the end of this thread here: http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=31914&start=80

[Sven Johannsen]

If you're trying to bait SeanH it's not going to work. See the end of this thread here: http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=31914&start=80

I saw that. Too bad. He was fun to poke. Guess I'll have to go back to teasing the cats ;)

[Fishie]

Did we make him snap?
Id like to think so.

[maximus]

Shame on you guys ... pushing around a guy just like that.

Just kidding :p

Out of curiosity, SeanH is now banned, what stopped him from creating another ID and start posting again ? A person who is back with a vengeance is usually hard to be managed.

[Kati Compton]

Out of curiosity, SeanH is now banned, what stopped him from creating another ID and start posting again ? A person who is back with a vengeance is usually hard to be managed.
There's a few things we can do, but there's always a way around just about everything. Basically, we just hope that things like that don't happen, and if they do, that the person doing it gets bored before we give up banning their account(s).

Generally, though, most people respect their banned status. Not that it happens all *that* often.

[Fishie]

Little do you people know that I am in fact SeanH and this was all part of my masterplan to beat the Guess the movie quote thread.

Drats, foiled again.

[Wiggster]

I want to say something like:

Let's start a new tangent: "Guess The Banned User thread": we act like a banned member, and others have to guess who it is. I'll go first.

"It's pointless to buy a device that supports all your existing memory cards because different memory cards will be cheaper in the future."

But I won't. This thread really needs to die. I didn't really like SeanH, but seeing the results from the other thread really made me hate him.

[maximus]

But I won't. This thread really needs to die. I didn't really like SeanH, but seeing the results from the other thread really made me hate him.

I dont know, but I think it is unnecessary to hate someone because of the way that person acted in his/her online persona. SeanH might actually be a nice guy in reallife. Maybe he was just having bad moods and decided to be not-too-nice in the other thread.

Just my .02

[Wiggster]

But I won't. This thread really needs to die. I didn't really like SeanH, but seeing the results from the other thread really made me hate him.

I dont know, but I think it is unnecessary to hate someone because of the way that person acted in his/her online persona. SeanH might actually be a nice guy in reallife. Maybe he was just having bad moods and decided to be not-too-nice in the other thread.

Just my .02

That was my point. Did you read the other thread, explaining he was banned for attacking the site and ruining the results of the poll? Having a caustic personality is one thing. Taking it upon yourself to go out of your way to ruin a feature of a site like this is another. Hate the actions, not thf personality.

[Kati Compton]

I realize that poll botching is upsetting, but it really isn't fair to rant about SeanH when he can't be here to defend himself.

I think that now that the problem has been "resolved", we should all try our best to let it go and move on. ;)

[Fishie]

I be here.

[KimVette]

If you're trying to bait SeanH it's not going to work. See the end of this thread here: http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=31914&start=80


People aren't trying to bait him; just convince him that Bluetooth is not always the answer (especially if you have to bring a device as a contractor to do work on certain military bases. It has bluetooth or a built-in camera? Sorry, you are not getting in.). Bluetooth is insecure and is a VERY poor solution for storage devices and other peripherals. In fact, some laptop manufacturers believe that bluetooth is a dead end due to abysmal transfer rates and the insecure nature of the protocol!

His (SeanH's) disdain for CF does not translate to total obsolescence of the CF market, nor does it translate to lack of demand for CF form factor peripherals and storage cards.

I don't like him because he seems totally closed to the idea that an array of solutions is not the best solution for anybody, but I'm sorry to see that it came to his being banned, and I find it offensive that he would stoop to manipulating the polls on a technical site. Moderators: Is there any way the poll could be posted anew, and everyone invited to vote again, once, to see where users really stand on this? After this long thread, I would love to see what the real and true results would be.

[Kati Compton]

People aren't trying to bait him;...
I was only talking to Fishie, immediately above my post, who *was* trying to bait him.

Moderators: Is there any way the poll could be posted anew, and everyone invited to vote again, once, to see where users really stand on this? After this long thread, I would love to see what the real and true results would be.
We're discussing whether or not we should bother. It was 43%/49%/7% last I saw before it was ruined.

[Wiggster]

We're discussing whether or not we should bother. It was 43%/49%/7% last I saw before it was ruined.

I wonder who belong to the mysteriously missing 1%. Perhaps those that would only buy a PDA with PCMCIA capabilities? :mrgreen:

[Sven Johannsen]

I think this would be a difficult one to phrase so you got what you were after, much like the similar ones about VGA, SDIO, BT, Wifi. Each has varied followings and provides unique capabilities. I'd find it hard to be unequivicable about 'only getting something with' or 'never getting something with' on any one feature. The rest would always play a part, and then size and cost would be considered.

I think most folks would really fall into the 'it matters, but it's not the only parameter' on most things. I don't understand saying you'd never buy something with one of the features unless you have some external reason, such as radios being prohibited where you work, as cameras are for me. To dismiss a device because you have personal dislike for a technology it contains seems a bit petty. (unless it is about Sony Memory Sticks of course ;) )

If you could cram CF, SDIO, WiFi, BT, VGA, etc, into a device the size of a 1910 for the price of a X30 mid, I think even Sean would be hard pressed to pass it up because it has a CF slot, citing it could have been only a mm thick if they left that out.

It would actually be more usefull IMHO for folks to rank the various features in order of importance to them, and then you might get an overall picture of what is most important to least important on the average. Don't know how you'd automate that in this sort of forum though.

[Kati Compton]

We're discussing whether or not we should bother. It was 43%/49%/7% last I saw before it was ruined.

I wonder who belong to the mysteriously missing 1%. Perhaps those that would only buy a PDA with PCMCIA capabilities? :mrgreen:
;) Rounding problems. 43.3% + 49.3% + 7.4% = 100%, but the %s are only shown as whole numbers.

[Wiggster]

;) Rounding problems. 43.3% + 49.3% + 7.4% = 100%, but the %s are only shown as whole numbers.

I know that, but it's more fun hypothesizing about imaginary people.

[KimVette]

I wonder who belong to the mysteriously missing 1%. Perhaps those that would only buy a PDA with PCMCIA capabilities? :mrgreen:

I would be in that category if HP hadn't gone back on their word and dumped expansion sleeve support one year early. The bastids!! :(

[ST8]

I realise this is late in the discussion but i thought id link this up:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/09/06/ericsson_drops_bluetooth_dev/

[Len M.]

Our PDAudio-CF card turns a PDA into the smallest high resolution audio recorder available today.

http://www.core-sound.com/HighResRecorderNews.html

PDAudio-CF is a CF card. If PDAs didn't have CF slots, they couldn't function as high resolution audio recorders.


Len Moskowitz
Core Sound
www.core-sound.com

[Fishie]

Ah yes, I wondered what was keeping you from this thread.
I have investigated your products in the past and thats some nice stuff you got going there.

[maikii]

CF is dead it should not be in new PDA’s, it adds bulk. MMC/SDIO cards are faster then CF cards.

Nonsense! Who decided that CF cards are "dead"? You?

It is still BY FAR the flash memory where you get the most bang for your buck. All flash memory is getting cheaper, but CF is by far the cheapest. I saw a post here about 2 GB CF flash cards for $136!

And there are also HDs in CF format. I currently have a 4GB microdrive in my IPAQ 2215. Can you get that kind of storage with an SD slot?

Who said SD was faster? I never heard that before. It seems to be less reliable. I've had more problems with SD cards, and have read about others having problems with them dying as well. I also have lost them, through their popping out of the slot on top of my IPAQ. Doesn't happen with CF.

I don't mind that my mini camera only has an SD slot. I wouldn't mind a smartphone that had only that. But I would not buy a PPC without a CF card slot.