HP Information About SE Upgrade Policy, End-Of-Life For Existing iPAQs

[Janak Parekh]

Two useful articles have cropped up on the Web today that existing and future iPAQ owners should probably glance at:<br /><ul><li> Dave's iPAQ has <a href="http://davesipaq.com/news/003972/windows_mobile_questions">an update from HP</a> regarding their Second Edition update policies. There's news about the iPAQ 6315 (it almost definitely won't have Second Edition), ROM sizes (SE is much larger than FE), what features HP provides instead of SE, and much, much more. One useful quote:</ul> <b>Will HP update the current shipping products in the future with new Windows Mobile releases?</b><br /><br />HP cannot make assurances of future ROM image updates that provide enhancements to Microsoft Windows Mobile 2003. HP’s goal is to maintain a quality product release and provide resolutions to issues on existing ROM images while releasing new iPAQ products with the latest offerings from Microsoft. HP evaluates each release provided from Microsoft and determines the value and quality of that release before making the decision to invest in developing the enhancement of a ROM image for existing products. HP must also weigh the amount of development time required to complete a new release for handheld devices with the timing of future HP and Microsoft updates.<ul><li> BargainPDA has <a href="http://www.bargainpda.com/default.asp?newsID=2167">useful information</a> on end-of-life dates for existing iPAQs. Interestingly, the iPAQ 2215 is not scheduled to be discontinued until December 2005 -- latest amongst all existing models. 8O Is that a typo!?</ul>

[PPCRules]

Interestingly, the iPAQ 2215 is not scheduled to be discontinued until December 2005 -- latest amongst all existing models. 8O Is that a typo!?
In my eyes, the 2215 does not have a replacement in the current crop of new devices, so if HP realizes that, they will support it longer.

[JPack]

It's not a typo, I've seen the same slides. :wink:

The reason is, the hx2700 isn't coming until next year. Until then, the h2200 is still quite popular and has a large base of enterprise users.

[rpommier]

It's not a typo, I've seen the same slides. :wink:

The reason is, the hx2700 isn't coming until next year. Until then, the h2200 is still quite popular and has a large base of enterprise users.

What is the 2700?

Some things just bug me... I know this has been beat to death, but... What it the fascination with SD? It's more expensive and slower than CF. I'm sorry it doesn't add THAT much bulk to a unit. My 2215 is svelt enough.

If they want to save room, move the SD to a SIM card like position under the battery like the old N-Gage did. I never remove my SD card.

The only thing keeping me from an Axim is the lack of CF slot...

[whydidnt]

Interesting that there is no 2nd edition upgrade planned for the 6300 series. I guess HP doesn't think anyone wants to use landsapce for surfing the web, which is a primary purpose for owning this device. :microwave: At least now I have one less converged device to consider. :roll:

I can understand on those devices with 32 MB ROM why HP decided not to upgrade, if the 2nd edition really is "that" much bigger, but that doesn't explain away the decision on the 5500 series, with its 64 MB ROM.

Sounds to me like HP took a look at WMSE and said, bah, there is nothing but bloat here. We ain't doing this just so a few enthusiasts can hold their device sideways. :evil: Let them eat cake!!

I just think it sets a bad precedent, especially on the higher-end devices, and does give me cause to consider which manufacturer to purchase from, though they all seem to be guilty of these types of decisions from time to time.

[Sven Johannsen]

though they all seem to be guilty of these types of decisions from time to time.

That one statement should not be taken lightly be anyone. The decisions are made on a case by case basis and past performance is no indication of future potential. Those that have before, haven't this time, and some that didn't last time, did this time. Buy a PPC for what it is, not what it might become, and you have no reason to be upset if the OEM chooses not to upgrade it.

Personnally the only way I'd be hacked is if HP started shipping 2215s with SE on them and didn't provide an upgrade path for current users. That's an example BTW, not a specific.

[Jonathan1]

And yet no more then a few months ago both HP and Dell were spitting these ROM images out at a developer conf. Sure they weren't optimized and were rough around the edges. But...I’ve heard this song and dance before. Sweet. I’ve been looking for a chance to use this term all week. Thought I would get a chance at work but this'll do.

I’ve got a strong sense of deja moo with these articles. Obviously the OEM would rather make a sale then a cheapy upgrade. MOOOO.

[Rob Alexander]

Just wade through the drivel and read the words that count. They're telling you in the strongest terms you'll ever hear from a marketing team that there will be no more upgrades on any HP Pocket PCs now or in the future. They couldn't be clearer (for marketing types).

HP’s goal is to maintain a quality product release and provide resolutions to issues on existing ROM images while releasing new iPAQ products with the latest offerings from Microsoft.

So their 'goal' is to only release service updates to existing products and to put new OS's in new products. There it is; at least they've come out and said so.

I've always agreed with Sven on this... you shouldn't buy a PPC with any expectation beyond what it will do today. But Compaq was great about it and we all came to somewhat expect it. Now with the new HP, there's no excuse for any consumer to be confused on this issue; no more upgrades.

On the positive side, there'll be no excuse next time for all the whining when they yet again don't release an upgrade to WM2005 for the hx4705. Also at that time, you'll be able to put to bed for good the excuse that 'it's too big for the ROM' and recognize that they'd really just prefer that you buy a new device for $650 than that you send in $30 for an upgrade. If they weren't marketing people and if they did just speak plain English, that's what they'd say.

[Fishie]

Interesting that there is no 2nd edition upgrade planned for the 6300 series. I guess HP doesn't think anyone wants to use landsapce for surfing the web, which is a primary purpose for owning this device. :microwave: At least now I have one less converged device to consider. :roll:

I can understand on those devices with 32 MB ROM why HP decided not to upgrade, if the 2nd edition really is "that" much bigger, but that doesn't explain away the decision on the 5500 series, with its 64 MB ROM.

Sounds to me like HP took a look at WMSE and said, bah, there is nothing but bloat here. We ain't doing this just so a few enthusiasts can hold their device sideways. :evil: Let them eat cake!!

I just think it sets a bad precedent, especially on the higher-end devices, and does give me cause to consider which manufacturer to purchase from, though they all seem to be guilty of these types of decisions from time to time.

32MB not enough?

Dude Toshiba has a SE update out for the E400 and that one has 16mb ROM.

[alexkro]

Bastards! Those explanations are just lame! Windows Mobile 2003 SE is larger than WM2003? Give me a break! It's based on the same core (Windows CE .NET 4.2). Some components are revamped, but that's it there is to it. The new version Windows CE 5.0 is larger, I can understand that, but not 4.2.

My take on this: HP engineers couldn't get it working. Simple as that. The project to provide updates was underway, that's why they kept holding the announcement. But then something happened and they cancelled it. Too bad. I was really hoping they can make it. As an owner of iPaq 2215 I'm really disappointed.

I know where HP is going. They introduced a plethora of new models but at the same time they dumped users of the existing devices. Now I'm thinking whether I should switch to Toshiba with my next purchase of the Pocket PC. They seem to have a better record supporting their customers.

[Jaap van Ees]

(...) Now I'm thinking whether I should switch to Toshiba with my next purchase of the Pocket PC. They seem to have a better record supporting their customers.

Or better yet: just forget about the Pocket PC altogether. HP is killing the Pocket PC-business. I am out!

[Janak Parekh]

Or better yet: just forget about the Pocket PC altogether. HP is killing the Pocket PC-business. I am out!
And what platform are you going to pick that does offer OS upgrades? The fact of the matter is that we're nearing the end of an era when it came to upgradable handheld organizers -- and most consumers don't actually mind, just the power users like us.

--janak

[Jaap van Ees]

And what platform are you going to pick that does offer OS upgrades? The fact of the matter is that we're nearing the end of an era when it came to upgradable handheld organizers -- and most consumers don't actually mind, just the power users like us.

--janak

My iPaq 5450 will have to do until it dies. After that I may fall back on my 12 inch Apple Powerbook. But Janak, you certainly have a point. It is just that I cannot stand the way HP handles this matter. The message we, the paying customers, have been getting is: "keep throwing money at us, and we'll keep thinking for you. But don't expect us to communicate with you!"

I have yet to see the first scrap of communication from HP that shows they have seriously considered their customers interest in this issue, and which contains a fair explanation to these customers why other issues make it impossible or unprofitable for HP -which they regret, of course- to present them with an upgrade path. Even at a price. It is just total silence, even after several intense, yet mainly polite outbursts of frustration. So the customer will just have to take it or leave it. I cannot stand this behaviour. I consider myself not unreasonable. I am ready to listen to HP's take on this, and and let them convince me of their reasons why I should have to pay -again- 600 to 900 euros to buy a current device that -again- will not be upgradeable. I am not holding my breath. :(

[Janak Parekh]

My iPaq 5450 will have to do until it dies. After that I may fall back on my 12 inch Apple Powerbook.
Well, the question now gets even more interesting. How upgradeable is that Powerbook going to be? Will OS "11" run on it? (Yes, I know, the OS X upgrades are actually quite significant, and probably more akin to an "SE" upgrade, but I'm slowly finding laptops themselves to be less upgradeable as the years progress.)

It is just that I cannot stand the way HP handles this matter. The message we, the paying customers, have been getting is: "keep throwing money at us, and we'll keep thinking for you. But don't expect us to communicate with you!"
I agree that the communication has been less than ideal. That said, I'm not sure I can say HP made the wrong choice from its perspective. As a power user, it upsets me, but if I put myself in their shoes, a cost-benefit analysis could certainly tilt towards not offering an upgrade.

I think that's part of the reason why HP is now going out of their way to point out upgradeability is not a guaranteed thing. We used to have an expectation of upgradeability of such a device, based on the fact that CE is "more" like a desktop... but in general, I'm finding there's no guarantee consumer devices in the $200-$600 range are upgradeable, CE or otherwise.

--janak

[Jaap van Ees]

Well, the question now gets even more interesting. How upgradeable is that Powerbook going to be? Will OS "11" run on it? (Yes, I know, the OS X upgrades are actually quite significant, and probably more akin to an "SE" upgrade, but I'm slowly finding laptops themselves to be less upgradeable as the years progress.)
I don't know about OS 11. Or XI. ;) But the 10.x - upgrades are no problem. At the rate development is going I will be able to use my PowerBook much longer than any handheld device I have ever owned. My desktop PC (yes, I know that's a different matter) has run Win 98, Win 98 SE, Win 2000 and Win XP. With the exception of an extra HD and added RAM, it has been running for four years now. My 5450 is not even 1,5 years old, has already run 2 OS's, but is now officially considered obsolete.

I agree that the communication has been less than ideal. That said, I'm not sure I can say HP made the wrong choice from its perspective. As a power user, it upsets me, but if I put myself in their shoes, a cost-benefit analysis could certainly tilt towards not offering an upgrade.

I think that's part of the reason why HP is now going out of their way to point out upgradeability is not a guaranteed thing. We used to have an expectation of upgradeability of such a device, based on the fact that CE is "more" like a desktop... but in general, I'm finding there's no guarantee consumer devices in the $200-$600 range are upgradeable, CE or otherwise.
There has been NO communication with existing users, other than the two one-sided announcements. There has been NO explanation. Sure, I can guess, just like you do. But in the matter of scrapping a 800 euro (which is a lot more than $200-600) device I prefer not to guess. Secondly, I wasn't expecting charity, or a guarantee. I want a CHOICE, and I am willing to pay for it. As things stand now, the only choice I can make is to ignore HP, just as they ignore their customers. So that is what I will do (and what I will advise my company of some tens of thousand employees to do) untill HP decides it will finally begin to take us customers seriously by communicating with us.

Jaap

[Jonathon Watkins]

Now I'm thinking whether I should switch to Toshiba with my next purchase of the Pocket PC. They seem to have a better record supporting their customers.

You know, the rumoured Toshiba e830 (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=26986&) seems better and better these days. :?

Maybe Toshiba will step up to the plate and continue the excellent upgrade policy they had with the e805, after they leaned from their earlier mistake of not offering upgrades.

Welcome Alexkro, by the way. :wink:

[KimVette]

I’ve got a strong sense of deja moo with these articles. Obviously the OEM would rather make a sale then a cheapy upgrade. MOOOO.

See, the reason for providing the upgrades they promised shouldn't be to make money, but for two reasons:

1. Customer loyalty - betray your customer and they will cease doing business with you. I am not buying any more HP products past the 555x, be it printers, scanners, servers, etc. For scanners I'll go to Microtek or Eposon. For Printers I've already started buying Canon (incidentally, the ONLY ink cartridges that aren't chipped to time out prematurely are the Canons)

2. The "Halo" effect. By offering the upgrades, etc. you are generating good PR. This is akin to GM's producing the Corvette even when it was a money-losing proposition (Especially the ZR-1, which I own! :D), Dodge's producing the Viper, and Ford's producing the GT(GT40). Each one of those lines is either a money-loser or barely breaks even (although the Corvette has been directly profitable for the past several years). The reasons those cars exist is NOT to directly produce profit (although when they do it's great), but to keep customers coming back. Chances are when somebody buys a Viper and a Featherlight trailer, that Viper owner is going to need a trick to pull that Featherlight, and what is he or she going to buy to tow that Viper? A Dodge Ram.
What is that person going to buy for a family car? A Dodge Magnum or an Intrepid or Concord - or a Caravan/Voyager.

If a Ford dealer has a GT(GT40) in the showroom what is the college student going to do? Come in and gawk at the GT, and while he's there he's going to look at the Mustang GT or SVT Cobra and he's going to buy that.

What is that Ford GT(40) owner going to buy to pull the featherlight and GT40? An F150 or F350. What is the family car going to be? a Lincoln LS or a Clown Vic.

The profits generated by those halo cars cannot be directly measured but the boards of directors and the marketing gurus at these companies fully understand and take advantage of the "halo effect" of these cars, and how those cars' very existence indirectly leads to significant sales of the lower-tier models.

In short, by producing a product which costs some money when viewed directly, may (and probably will) lead to future purchases of the wider-margin items.

[MikeInDallas]

...betray your customer and they will cease doing business with you. I am not buying any more HP products past the 555x, be it printers, scanners, servers, etc. For scanners I'll go to Microtek or Eposon. For Printers I've...


This reminds me of something a respected collegue at Intuit had to say about Toshiba, after they announced they wouldn't offer 2003 for the e740.

I have to agree with you. Do what's right, maybe at a cost, and eventually you'll have brand loyalty that is hard to kill. Nickel and dime the customer, and they'll find somewhere else to go.

I will toss this one fact into the proverbial hat: Microsoft isn't making upgrades easy. They keep breaking core functionality. I develop PocketPC software and have had to jump through some hoops when dealing with IrDa, playing wav files, trying to get device drivers to work that used to work...Microsoft used to err on the side of remaining compatible, sometimes at the cost of innovation or drastic improvements. This was good. They don't follow that rule anymore, so when a new OS is released, you don't know what's going to be different. Perhaps someone made a philosophical decision to move some core registry settings to another location because the new structure makes better logical sense. Agreed, hindsight is 20/20, but I question these kinds of decisions on the basis of necessity vs industry cost to adapt.

Having said all of that, I still think the best medium with this is to raise the upgrade price from $29.95 to $49.95. Fifty bills doesn't' sound too bad, and it should widen the profit margin gap enough to help HP product management build a business case in favor of it.

Yikes, look at the time...