Flash Animation On The iPAQ hx4700 Touchpad

[Janak Parekh]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.synaptics.com/flash/navpoint_demo.swf' target='_blank'>http://www.synaptics.com/flash/navpoint_demo.swf</a><br /><br /></div>Curious how the hx4700's touchpad works? Check out this informative little Flash video. The good news is that it has two modes: a "dpad-like" mode as well as the expected cursor/touchpad navigation mode.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/2003/parekh-20040726-NavPoint.jpg" />

[powder2000]

My one question is whether the touchpad mode recalibrates after switching from portrait to landscape. I'm still not sold on this idea on a ppc yet. I'm gonna have to give it a try.

[rzanology]

like i said before. On a crowded moving train in nyc....this makes the device a hell of alot more usable than the crappy d pads.

[arnage2]

the flash animation makes the ipaq look huge compared to the hand. almost too huge

[badbob001]

like i said before. On a crowded moving train in nyc....this makes the device a hell of alot more usable than the crappy d pads.

ONLY if you have a seat. I don't really see how this would work if you only had one hand free.

[JPack]

By using your thumb?

[ctitanic]

Well, it seems to me that this is going to be my next baby :D

[Ryan Joseph]

Did anyone notice that during the solitare demonstration, the cursor hangs off the bottom of the screen? :lol:

Seriously, I can't wait to try this in person. If done right, this could revolutionize PPC control.

[Brad Adrian]

I'm not sure whether or not this is something I need. But, I know I've been using Synaptics pads for about eight or nine years and I consider them the best in the touchpad area. In fact, didn't they buy out one of their competitors a few years ago?

[Stake]

The pad operates much like a laptop touchpad I have on my IBM Thinkpad. There is a "Navigation" mode which turns the pad into a standard 4 direction pad but I'm curious how games respond to the repeat rate when it's touched/pressed. It's nice to have options on either using the screen or the pad. I wish more laptops would have a touchscreen!

I think overall, I think this is a positive. It gives a PPC more control when it comes to single hand use, especially in landscape mode. Someone brought this up before but imagine a new MP3 player program that utilizes the pad kinda like the iPod??

Also, I think this sorta compensates for a lack of a jog wheel. I can see myself using a browser (IE apparently doesn't cut it anymore) and no longer needing to tap the d-pad repeatedly or tap+hold the scroll bar. Just tap and drag the touchpad, that's it! Of course this would be in landscape mode. Why would you browse a site in portrait if you have landscape?

[huangzhinong]

So the touchpad can't be use as handwriting area as Palm? I though they finally merged laptop touchpad and POS silk hardwriting area. What a disppointment. :D

[Exempli Gratia]

Seems this only would be useful one-handed (and/or if a clear cover was on). One-handed, your thumb may be able to reach the entire touch-pad, but not the entire screen. Plus, trying to hit the screen with your thumb is not very precise.

Two-handed, the only advantage it that you would not need to get the stylus out and would not muck up the screen.

[surur]

Actually, to tap a button repeatedly (e.g in a game) you will have to lift your thumb off the touch pad for a moment. This may make your hold on your device less stable, and may make a top-heavy device fall. There is also no tactile feedback (which is also useful in a game)

Its not really a useful addition to a device with a large touch screen, no matter how well they implement it.

A much better innovation would have been a very large screen which extends to the edge of the device, which implemented a virtual touchpad (ala the virtual silk screen on the POS devices).

It would have the same effect, plus is you hate it you could make it go away and have a bigger screen.

Surur

[alex_kac]

Problem with using the screen as the touch pad solely: smudges. The 4700's touchpad allows you to do things you'd normally use your thumb on the screen for - without smudging the screen with icky human oils.

[PJE]

So the touchpad can't be use as handwriting area as Palm? I though they finally merged laptop touchpad and POS silk hardwriting area. What a disppointment. :D

Watching the demo I was thinking how nice it would be to have a third mode of operation where you could enter text in a graffiti mode without needing to pop up the on screen display...

...Now if was only $499....

[Robb Bates]

I'm with Surur, I don't even see the whole point in this (pardon the pun).

Why have a touch sensitive pad when you have a touch sensitive screen not even a 1/4" away. What's the point? Yes, I like the mouse cursor. I wouldn't mind seeing a portable mouse to be used with foldable keyboards. But the loss of the tactile d-pad makes this a negative in my book. I rarely use the d-pad except for games and this touchpad probably would make game play that much harder.

Robb

[Robb Bates]

A much better innovation would have been a very large screen which extends to the edge of the device, which implemented a virtual touchpad (ala the virtual silk screen on the POS devices).

Isn't that what PPCs already have versus Palm devices?

Robb

[surur]

A much better innovation would have been a very large screen which extends to the edge of the device, which implemented a virtual touchpad (ala the virtual silk screen on the POS devices).

Isn't that what PPCs already have versus Palm devices?

Robb

Aaah, but the point would be a very large screen which extends to the edge of the device, which implemented a virtual touchpad.

Like some sony models, a device that is all screen, with some hardware buttons on the edge. That would be really cool.

Surur

[Stake]

Actually, to tap a button repeatedly (e.g in a game) you will have to lift your thumb off the touch pad for a moment. This may make your hold on your device less stable, and may make a top-heavy device fall. There is also no tactile feedback (which is also useful in a game)

I think you're mistaken on that point. I saw the demo again and it clearly shows that when you press on the raised points in navigation mode, it does repeat.

Its not really a useful addition to a device with a large touch screen, no matter how well they implement it.

I think there are advantages here even with a 4" screen. My Genio has a 4" screen and I have always wished there was a better way for navigation in addition to the touchscreen.

A much better innovation would have been a very large screen which extends to the edge of the device, which implemented a virtual touchpad (ala the virtual silk screen on the POS devices).

It would have the same effect, plus is you hate it you could make it go away and have a bigger screen.

I don't know about this either. I think this may cause tapping errors if you're navigating and tapping at the same time. If you have two points pressed on the screen at the same time on a touch display, it will only respond properly to one point or the other, not both. Having it there at all times, I feel, makes more sense. Even if this wasn't the case, I don't think that you'll have the precise control as you would on a touchpad. There would also only be a single fixed pressure threshold to get it to respond. Sliding your finger/thumb on a glass-like surface isn't smooth either.

[snazzy]

I don't get it either.. there's a large 4 inch screen a finger movement away.. why use the touchpad? icky finger? use the stylus then. hmm... :roll:

[rugerx]

Will it have and update to WM 2005 SE ? Or will we need to buy the 8900xpi Ipaq for that ?

That is the real question.

(yes I meant 2005 SE, bad attempt at humor methinks.)

[surur]

Actually, to tap a button repeatedly (e.g in a game) you will have to lift your thumb off the touch pad for a moment. This may make your hold on your device less stable, and may make a top-heavy device fall. There is also no tactile feedback (which is also useful in a game)

I think you're mistaken on that point. I saw the demo again and it clearly shows that when you press on the raised points in navigation mode, it does repeat.


Im not talking about pressing it repeatedly. Im talking about touching a button without pressing it, e.g say in a racing game when you are waiting for a turn. You have your finger on the button, stabilising the device, and when the turn comes you press the button.

On this touchpad you cant touch it on the dots without initiating a click, and if you keep your finger there it will read as a repeat. Its not very convenient.

I expect, like the touchpad on my laptop, that this will also be easily triggered by e.g the base of my hand when using the stylus, causing incorrect clicks and cursor movements.

Surur

[Robb Bates]

And when playing games, like the racing example, when you come to a turn, you would rock your thumb from left to right. Rocking your thumb on the touchpad won't be interpretted as letting go of the left button and pressing the right button, it would be seen as a scroll gesture.

I say DOWN WITH THE TOUCHPAD!!!! Who's with me????

Robb

[nosmohtac]

I don't get it either.. there's a large 4 inch screen a finger movement away.. why use the touchpad? icky finger? use the stylus then. hmm... :roll:

I didn't like the idea at first, but after seeing the solitaire demo I really like it.

I use the expensive screen protectors for my iPAQ, and if I end up on a solitaire marathon, I can destroy one of these screen protectors in a matter of days. This opens up new possibilities, that I now think, are excellent.

[Mark Johnson]

I say DOWN WITH THE TOUCHPAD!!!! Who's with me????

Robb

Alright, pistols at dawn pal! I for one will defend the honor of this innovative idea! :lol:

But seriously, as much as I have been very underwhelmed by PPC2003SE (meaning the entire OS release and ALL devices coming out this year) I really do APPLAUD this feature. I honestly don't know if it will be halfway as cool as I hope it is, but it's really the ONLY "radical departure" from the "business as usual" and "minor incremental development" mindset that has infected Redmond and all the OEMs for the last couple of releases.

Please, all you who THINK you are going to hate it, just "give trackpads a chance" won't you? I personally hate how inefficient it is to grab the stylus every time I need to navigate. Any idea that MIGHT make a significant improvement in usability is worth a shot don't ya think?

At a minimum, HP should be given credit-where-credit-is-due for thinking outside the box.

[dean_shan]

:drool:

[Stake]

Im not talking about pressing it repeatedly. Im talking about touching a button without pressing it, e.g say in a racing game when you are waiting for a turn. You have your finger on the button, stabilising the device, and when the turn comes you press the button.

On this touchpad you cant touch it on the dots without initiating a click, and if you keep your finger there it will read as a repeat. Its not very convenient.

I expect, like the touchpad on my laptop, that this will also be easily triggered by e.g the base of my hand when using the stylus, causing incorrect clicks and cursor movements.

Surur

OK, I understand now. I was applying my argument to games like side scrollers and emulators. I see your point. Though what would be interesting is in your driving game scenario, what if a game maker used the pad specifically so it would act as an analog input?

I too have a pad on my laptop but I use the stick instead. I too was annoyed sometimes when the pad would move around if my palm touched it. The problem went away when I turned on the PalmCheck option.

I just think that people should give it a chance until you actually try it out.

[Julio]

This just occurred to me as I saw the flash demo...

Since HP already has a mouse pointer implemented that is controlled by a touch pad - would it be possible to hook-up a bluetooth mouse and control the cursor that way?

I can see this being very useful when editing a document in TextMaker or PlanMaker. Combine it with the Think Outside bluetooth keyboard - and you have a *very* portable mini computer! :devilboy:

Personally, it is a pain to use a stylus when using a keyboard with a PPC. And, yet, for real document editing, a keyboard is a necessity. A mouse would make it that much more convenient!

Cheers,
Julio

[logo20heli]

Will it have and update to WM 2005 SE ? Or will we need to buy the 8900xpi Ipaq for that ?

That is the real question.

(yes I meant 2005 SE, bad attempt at humor methinks.)

I was browsing the hx4700 data sheet that is located at HP's press kit location and found the following quote:

"• Extended Product life cycle for stability and investment protection."

Maybe they are saying this to try to convince some corporations that this PDA will be around next year and that HP will support it (with new OS releases?).

I found the data sheet here: http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press_kits/2004/ipaq/ds_hx4700.pdf

Speaking on topic, I think the touchpad is useful if it is usable by one hand. I think using it with a folding keyboard will be nice. I won't have to pull out the stylus. I'm willing to give it a go and make a decision later.

[badbob001]

I suspect that dpad mode will not have diagonal support.

Notice that the demo suggest assigning a button to change the touchpad's mode... and we also need a button to change screen orientation and to turn wifi/bluetooth on/off. Oops, we only have four buttons. It would have been nice if they put more buttons at the top of the device so we can assign those extra features and to also be able to use the pad and buttons in landscape mode.

[Palmguy]

I'm gonna try it out...I think it's a pretty cool idea and hope it's executed well. Sounds like it is :D

[mace]

This may be a stupid question, but does the orentation of the touchpad or cursor button change when in landscape mode?

[Rob Alexander]

Will it have and update to WM 2005 SE ? Or will we need to buy the 8900xpi Ipaq for that ?

That is the real question.

(yes I meant 2005 SE, bad attempt at humor methinks.)

Don't count on anything as vague as an "extended product lifecycle"; that's just marketing babble. You've just seen HP's decision on upgrades to a non-major OS update for devices that cost exactly the same as this. What's the chance they'll give us an upgrade when the next OS version is a major update? Just assume they won't offer an upgrade and make your decisions accordingly. Then, if they change their whole corporate personality in the next year, you'll be pleasantly surprised. If they don't, then you won't have left yourself open to disappointment.

[Kai920]

This may be a stupid question, but does the orentation of the touchpad or cursor button change when in landscape mode?
The cursor would simply rotate along with the switch to landscape... movement wise, the pad will still function correctly.

"left" in portrait changes to "up" in landscape
"up" in portrait changes to "right" in landscape

etc. etc.

[sylvangale]

I hope this turns out an utter failure for HP. I would consider this damn PDA if they stuck to basic PDA controls. What is the sense of this when the whole darned screen is TOUCHABLE. Maybe they plan on eliminating touchscreens next as a new high end feature 8O.

I never use my laptop touchpad unless I am travelling. Even then I have a mobile mouse for when I am doing extensive work and playing games on a touch pad is just plain sucky.

[jpjehu]

good point, sylvangale. I've never thought of it that way, but I really wouldn't be surprised if you're not far from the truth - the very scary truth. Does anyone else feel that HP has gone so far 'outside of the box' as far as ppc's are concerned that they're going to knock the box over? For some strange reason all of these new features seem to over-complicate even when they're trying to simplify. Either way, though, it can't say much until I try it - it might be revolutionary as someone else said.

[dean_shan]

I never use my laptop touchpad unless I am travelling.

On must be your polar opposite. I have NEVER had a mouse plugged into my laptop.

[bbarker]

Notice that the demo suggest assigning a button to change the touchpad's mode... and we also need a button to change screen orientation and to turn wifi/bluetooth on/off. Oops, we only have four buttons.
On the Jornada, HP provided 2 functions for each button. Press and hold activated the second one.

[WillyG]

I wonder how this will work in landscape mode.
Does it adapt to the orientation? (left handed/touchpad on the left - right handed/touchpad on the right)
If not, its as good as useless. Up on the touchpad should be up, no matter the orientation.

[JPack]

[quote=rugerx]
I was browsing the hx4700 data sheet that is located at HP's press kit location and found the following quote:

"• Extended Product life cycle for stability and investment protection."

Maybe they are saying this to try to convince some corporations that this PDA will be around next year and that HP will support it (with new OS releases?).



They're referring to an 18-month life-cycle. It means they'll continue to support it with software updates (not necessarily OS updates though) and sell hardware/accessories (i.e. so enterprise customers don't have to standardize on several iPaq families). They're introducing this new image stability program to appease enterprise buyers since some of the products are too short (e.g. h1940 and h4150 have a 12-month life).

[Mark Johnson]

What is the sense of this when the whole darned screen is TOUCHABLE.

It is interesting that this point seems to keep coming up from the "no touchpad" camp, and I'll admit that it seems to make sense. At least at first. There is, however, one simple fact that I really think undermines the argument that everyone in the "down with the touchpad" group is making:

Clearly the touchscreen (as it has existed on pretty much all PDAs for many years now) works reasonably well for data-entry, but at NO point on ANY device has ANY manufacturer worked out a good way to make it do "double duty" for BOTH data-entry AND navigation.

If (emphasize if) the touchscreen could be effectively (as argued) BOTH a practical data-entry AND navigation method, any manufacturer could have used EXISTING hardware to make that happen. They never did, simply because there are fundamental problems with "overlaying" navigation ON TOP OF the data though which you are trying to navigate.

Put another way, lots of people feel having to grab the stylus (two handed operation) and then aim for and click a relatively small side scrolling bar is a pain. Also "discrete clicks" of a d-pad often require either too many click to get to where you need to go, (increments for some purposes are too small) or take you further on a document than you wanted to go (increments for other purposes are too large.) This issue, by the way, is what makes the iPod's scroll-wheel such an incredibly popular and incredibly simple "variable increment" navigation solution.

So I'll go ahead and make the statement that navigation with d-pads ONLY leaves MUCH to be desired for MANY people. (Apple would never retire the wheel on the ipod right? You would never buy a stereo that replaced the "volume dial" with a pair of up-down buttons right?) OK, so d-pad navigation (as good as it is for somethings like gaming) is not good for a lot of other things.

So returning to the original "but just do the touch-navigation on the touchSCREEN instead of adding a touchPAD" argument: If there was some solution to OVERLAYING that would work, anyone could have released a software implementation for it on any of the devices we've had for years. I'd argue that it just wouldn't ever work because there would be a fundamental "user intention ambiguity" issue (am I taping my finger on Pocket Excel cell J8 because I want to edit it, or to begin a scroll stroke? etc.) This is (in my opinion) more of an issue than the "screen smudge" problem, but that's also a problem.

Now I could be wrong, and there could be a way to make this work, but no one has written software to do anything like this that I've ever seen, and the hardware required has been in our pockets for the last decade. So, it's not at all unreasonable for HP to look at "navigation has been crummy for the last decade" issue and decide it was worth taking a shot at a total redesign.

Sony saw the same problem and added the jog-dial, so there's clearly some precedent for the idea that "just a stylus and a d-pad won't do the trick." The jog-dial is one of the best-reviewed and dearly loved features of the Clie. If Microsoft had ever added it to the side of the PPC, then there might have been be less of felt need to try replacing the d-pad on the front.

[surur]

Actually if this works well I can see some-one implementing it as a SIP. I can see no reason why it would not be similarly functional on a touch screen. I dont think there is any need to overlay anything, just work the same as a normal SIP (i.e. displace the screen content).

What would have been really innovative would be a large screen with e.g 480x800, with the bottom 160 lines dedicated to the SIP. I dont think most software would have any problem with this, and if you lose the bottom buttons and D-pad it would not make the device any larger. It would be the widescreen version pocketpc. And if you did not like it you could have longer or wider PIE screens, which are all to the good.

Thats what I would call real innovation. We would still have the same debate regarding usability, but at least the benefits would be a lot clearer.

Surur

[dean_shan]

The jog-dial is one of the best-reviewed and dearly loved features of the Clie. If Microsoft had ever added it to the side of the PPC, then there might have been be less of felt need to try replacing the d-pad on the front.

That's what I like about the Toshibas. I wouldn't have a PPC without one.

[calocalo]

The obvious reason for adding a touchscreen is for easier manufacturing. Buttons are complicated to manufacture. Touch screens are solid state. This benefits HP, not us, because they are still charging a premium price. If you really wanted to make it easier to use one-handed, you would add a jog wheel. I have trouble now with my much lighter 2215 one handed using the D-Pad. Imagine trying to hold and navigate this "heavier" Ipaq (both in weight and price).

[Hyperluminal]

The obvious reason for adding a touchscreen is for easier manufacturing. Buttons are complicated to manufacture. Touch screens are solid state. This benefits HP, not us, because they are still charging a premium price. If you really wanted to make it easier to use one-handed, you would add a jog wheel. I have trouble now with my much lighter 2215 one handed using the D-Pad. Imagine trying to hold and navigate this "heavier" Ipaq (both in weight and price).
First of all, I assume you're talking about the touchpad, not touchscreen.

Now, how are buttons more complicated to manufacture? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it would seem that buttons are extremely simple to manufacture. And if you're right, why then would no one (especially Dell) have done this to replace their buttons (which HP, by the way, is not doing; they're only replacing the directional pad. The other buttons are still there) and save money themselves? Touchpads are more expensive, it would seem to me. It doesn't matter if they're solid state; some of the most expensive parts in a computer are solid state (monitor, processor, motherboard)...

[calocalo]

Forgive my rant. I'm still miffed that HP has dumped me and my year old 2215.

Yes I meant "pad" not "screen".

I'm no expert, but I thought the overall cost for a mechanical button (parts, manufacturing, assembly, support) would be higher than a electronic input pad. I'm probably wrong, clouded by my growing questioning of the motives of all HP corporate decisions (Benefit the consumer..... nahhh.)

BTW... are the app buttons actual "buttons"? They don't look "clickable" to me.

[tsapiano]

The key I think will be how functional this thing will be in a single-handed mode of opperation. The advantage that the D-Pad had was that as long as your software handled it appropriately it functioned very well - you could keep presure on it without actuating it, so you could keep a good grip while using it. Jog wheels work similarly well since their location on the side near the top of the unit allowed you to keep a good grip on the PDA without worrying about accidental actuation.

The problem I see with a touchpad is that typically they can't determine presure differences. If I am touching it, it will be actuated in the same way whether it is a light grasp or a hard press. The problem I see is that if this is the case, then we will have to keep our fingers off of it when we don't want to actuate it. With the pad located at the bottom, I'm not sure how you could hold it in a stable way without doing that. I guess you could always hold it off to the sides of the pad, however that thumb movement would be uncomfortable at best.

However, with that said, none of us have tried it so we really can't say for sure either way. From what I have seen to this point, this touchpad seems like a negative factor for me, I'm naturally willing to give it a shot however if I were interested in a new PDA at this stage (which I'm not since for my uses the new models all take away things that are more valuable than what they are adding on) it would mean I would have to wait until they were available in retail stores to play with.

To me a better solution would have seemed to be replacing the D-Pad with something like a trackpoint - it gives you the tactile feedback and handling of the D-Pad with the continuously variable nature of the trackpad. For software that expects a traditional D-Pad you could simply set a threshold point and it would function exactly the same - for software that needs continuous entry just take the data as-is...

[calocalo]

To me a better solution would have seemed to be replacing the D-Pad with something like a trackpoint - it gives you the tactile feedback and handling of the D-Pad with the continuously variable nature of the trackpad.

Like the trackpoint on my SonyEricson phone. Now that is a useful one-handed navigation method.

[Rob Alexander]

Sony saw the same problem and added the jog-dial, so there's clearly some precedent for the idea that "just a stylus and a d-pad won't do the trick." The jog-dial is one of the best-reviewed and dearly loved features of the Clie. If Microsoft had ever added it to the side of the PPC, then there might have been be less of felt need to try replacing the d-pad on the front.

I'm a little confused by the last part of this post, Mark. Early PPCs did have jog dials (unless you're intentionally differentiating between PPC and PSPC). I had one on my Casio E-11 and on my Jornada 430se, and you had one on your Casio E-10... perhaps your Jornada as well? I think the iPaq was the first to drop that and then everyone else followed suit. Personally I miss it as I read a lot of ebooks and it was dead easy to turn pages with a jog dial while the d-pad make that a pain.

[surur]

True.., My Loox600 has a lovely one.

Surur

[Mark Johnson]

Sony saw the same problem and added the jog-dial, so there's clearly some precedent for the idea that "just a stylus and a d-pad won't do the trick." The jog-dial is one of the best-reviewed and dearly loved features of the Clie. If Microsoft had ever added it to the side of the PPC, then there might have been be less of felt need to try replacing the d-pad on the front.

I'm a little confused by the last part of this post, Mark. Early PPCs did have jog dials (unless you're intentionally differentiating between PPC and PSPC).

There is a difference between what really should be properly called a "Jog Dial" (ala Sony Vaio, Sony Clie, etc.) and the "up/down selector" that Microsoft made a part of the reference designs for the PPC (going back, as you rightly point out to even the early models.) When I say "Jog Dial" I'm talking about navigation devices that implement "continuous scrolling" like 1) the models on the Sony products 2) the "touch-wheel" of the Apple iPod and 3) the wheel on any wheel mouse from pretty much any manufacturer. What people often call the "jog-dial" on the PPC has always been more like "half-a-d-pad" really: click-once-per-up or click-once-per-down, but no real scrolling.

The ability to "scroll continuously" is a great navigation aid, and it is really sad that Microsoft has never implemented what I think should be called a TRUE "Jog Dial." (Note that this term is probably trademarked by Sony, even if the idea is so old that it prodably couldn't be patented) so I think Microsoft stayed away from having it just so that they wouldn't be embarrased when people percived them as copying from Sony.

Anyway, to illustrate just how much better "continuous scrolling" is, all you have to do is own a wheel mouse. I've never met anyone who, once they had a wheel mouse would be willing to go back to a regular one again. When you are surfing the net and scrolling up and down a page, the ability to move large or small increments up and down without having to move the pointer to the right-side scroll bar is obviously a great improvement.

The PocketPC has always been more like navigating in a pre-wheel-mouse world: sure you can "arrow-up and arrow-down" on the d-pad on the PPC, but you could "arrow-up and arrow-down" on the keyboard of the PC to move through a webpage and that didn't satisfy (hence the popularity of wheel mice.) Similarly you can "stylus-click the scroll bar" on the PPC the same way you can "mouse click the scroll bar" on the PC, but that didn't satisfy either.

My point here (and my concern with the "we hate it even though we've never tired it" responses to the touchpad we've seen) is this: Our desktops had 1) "arrow-keys" and 2) "point-with-a-mouse-and-click" navigation for a long time until 3) a "scroll-wheel" option came out. Once we all found the scroll wheel none of us wanted to go back. The PPC has had 1) "arrow-buttons" and 2) "point-with-the-stylus-and-tap" navigation for a long time, but only Sony ever released a 3) "scroll-wheel" option. Now that HP is giving something "like it" a shot, this deserves a hard look.

I think the problem here (the mistake HP/Synaptics might have made) is that this has been implemented "instead of" rather than "in addition to" the existing navigation options. It's a little like if on your PC, you had to GIVE UP your arrow-keys on the keyboard in order to have a wheel mouse. (Imagine if all keyboards and mice were sold only as pairs and your could only EITHER buy a keyboard with now arrow keys and a wheel mouse OR a keyboard with arrow keys and w mouse with no wheel.)

HP has "robbed" some users of their "arrow keys" and given them a "scroll wheel" INSTEAD, not IN ADDITION TO what they like.

I'll go WAY off the deep end and say that maybe what they should have done (listening Synaptics?) is to add some sort of a very thin "touch strip" at the right side and bottom of the screen that was designed to directly control the scroll bars. They could then have left the d-pad alone, but added this sort of "virtual continuous scrolling" option to the unit.

When people were playing games, they could still use the d-pad. At the same time, when they opened their music playlist and started at A for Aerosmith and needed to get to Z for ZZ-Top, they WOULD NOT have to grab the stylus and aim for a tiny scroll bar, and they WOULD NOT have to press the d-pad down dozens of times. The could use reach their thumb over the "scroll strip" to the right of the screen and with a fast stroke move 10 or 20 records at a time, but as the "homed in on their target" use slow strokes to get right where they need to go. (Just like we do with the scroll wheel on our mice - which also, BTW explains why the arguments that "you can just hold the d-pad down and let it auto-repeat" are so utterly bogus: everyone who's tried that knows you always overshoot or undershoot widely, and the default auto-repeat speed is by it's very nature ALWAYS going to be a compromise.)

[bbarker]

There is a difference between what really should be properly called a "Jog Dial" (ala Sony Vaio, Sony Clie, etc.) and the "up/down selector" that Microsoft made a part of the reference designs for the PPC (going back, as you rightly point out to even the early models.) When I say "Jog Dial" I'm talking about navigation devices that implement "continuous scrolling" like 1) the models on the Sony products 2) the "touch-wheel" of the Apple iPod and 3) the wheel on any wheel mouse from pretty much any manufacturer. What people often call the "jog-dial" on the PPC has always been more like "half-a-d-pad" really: click-once-per-up or click-once-per-down, but no real scrolling.

The side control on my Jornada 568 provides continuous scrolling. So did the ones on my Jornada 548 and my Cassiopeia E-105 and E-10. Some of them are jog wheels while others, such as on the 568, are rocker switches. But they definitely allow continuous scrolling. I think all of these devices preceded the Sony, with the possible exception of the 568.

Perhaps I am completely misunderstanding what you mean.

I do a lot of reading on my Jornada and it would be hard to do without the side scroll mechanism.

The hx4700 apparently has a mediocre screen cover, which is one thing few models other than Jornadas have had. I love them because I don't have to add a bulky case to carry the device in my pocket. Maybe the 4700's cover is adequate. I'm looking forward to checking it out. I have declined to buy any PDA without a flip cover.

[bbarker]

They're referring to an 18-month life-cycle. It means they'll continue to support it with software updates (not necessarily OS updates though) and sell hardware/accessories (i.e. so enterprise customers don't have to standardize on several iPaq families). They're introducing this new image stability program to appease enterprise buyers since some of the products are too short (e.g. h1940 and h4150 have a 12-month life).
18 months still is insufficient for corporate use. My Jornada 568 is doing fine after twice that much time or more. With ongoing software and OS updates the hardware can be used for a long time. In a corporate environment that's important.

Pocket PC hardware doesn't become obsolete nearly as quickly as desktop PCs, yet desktops can be updated for many years -- far beyond what is practical. PPC manufacturers should provide OS, firmware and software updates for 3 or 4 years.

[Mark Johnson]

The side control on my Jornada 568 provides continuous scrolling.


Well actually I had a Jornada 568 (and a few of the others you mention) and I'd like to clarify this. The "side rocker switch" (from the as on the e100's) and the "side tripple-up/select/down" push buttons (from the 568) are really very different (and far less efficient) than what is a "Jog Dial" (as on a Sony.)

In the Microsoft implementation of this side-selector, regardless of wether it is a "wheel" or a series of buttons, you cannot make multiple "down increments" without "pushing" multiple times. With a "real" Jog Dial you make several "down increments" for each down-stroke. Even more importantly, in ideal implementations of this, the SPEED of the downstroke varies the NUMBER of down-increments.

Imagine the difference between a true "wheel mouse" and some of the super-cheap (and extremely rare because they are so crummy) imitation mice that have "up-down" buttons where you normally have a wheel. As incredible as it sounds, I've seen such mice where to move up or down a page, you PRESS up or down buttons that are where the wheel is on a normal wheel mouse. It's a drastically inferior method, once "down-click" takes you one-quarter of a page, etc. To move a whole page down, you click down four times, etc.

All you need to do to see the drastic superiority of the Sony Jog Dial over the Microsoft Psuedo-Jog Dial is head over to Best Buy and try a Clie. Navigating through a long list of anything is MUCH faster because each "fast-thumb-down" takes you more steps.

[huangzhinong]

Well actually I had a Jornada 568 (and a few of the others you mention) and I'd like to clarify this. The "side rocker switch" (from the as on the e100's) and the "side tripple-up/select/down" push buttons (from the 568) are really very different (and far less efficient) than what is a "Jog Dial" (as on a Sony.) .

Jog dial is nothing but a continus scrooling. Jornada 568's up and down buttons works much better and precisely than it.

Toshiba e310,e740 all have the jog dial.

By the way, jog dial has nothing to do with microsoft. Don't spray your anti-MS all the way around.

[bbarker]

However we define or prefer them, a scrolling control on the side is a big advantage that iPaqs lack. I don't understand why.

[huangzhinong]

However we define or prefer them, a scrolling control on the side is a big advantage that iPaqs lack. I don't understand why.

Maybe, once you rotate the screen, I don't know how can you use it.

[bbarker]

However we define or prefer them, a scrolling control on the side is a big advantage that iPaqs lack. I don't understand why.

Maybe, once you rotate the screen, I don't know how can you use it.
Once you rotate the screen the dpad (or touch pad) will be in a fair place for scrolling. Not as good as a scroll control on the side in portrait mode, though. You make a good point.

[Jeff Rutledge]

However we define or prefer them, a scrolling control on the side is a big advantage that iPaqs lack. I don't understand why.

Maybe, once you rotate the screen, I don't know how can you use it.
Once you rotate the screen the dpad (or touch pad) will be in a fair place for scrolling. Not as good as a scroll control on the side in portrait mode, though. You make a good point.

You could move a scroll wheel from the side of the device to a corner. Instead of being on the right side 2/3 of the way up, you could put it in the top right corner (in portrait mode). Then in landscape mode it would be on the bottom right corner.

I'm not sure how practical it would be, but it would cover both modes.

[calocalo]

Well I would prefer a psuedo-jog wheel, up/down button, or even the ol' single button over the no-side-control that HP has adopted for the 2215 and the new units. Eliminating it had no consumer benefit other than eliminating the turn-on-and-record problem caused by accidentally pressing the big sensitive button that the old IPAQs had.

[sylvangale]

The Touchpad...

1) Just like most standalone touchpads for PCs you may find an urge to lay your PDA flat on a table and just navigate away on your touchpad. A problem with this urge is that pressure you will apply upon the touchpad will most likely move your PDA across the table rather than moving the onscreen cursor.

Example: Lay your bare PDA on a wooden table. Place your finger firmly on the touchscreen. Push your finger.

2) The human finger, sweat/grease, and the slippery touchpad. The touch pad just as a touch screen is not made to be used with greasy hands. The touchpad will get greasy, attract dust, and build up grime. Sometimes resulting in coated less functional areas. If you snack it's even worse. You can see the touchpad get coated with oils you never realised you had on your hands. It builds up. You must clean your touchpad regularly with soap and water.

If you like to eat lunch with your PDA... you'll be using the stylus, not the touchpad.

Example: With PDA powered off. Eat a french fry. Wipe of your fingers with papertowels/napkins/etc. Press finger on screen and slide across. (Alternatively you can stand outside in the hot sun for a few minutes and try the same experiment with sweat)

3) Sensitivity. Touchpads are sensitive. If you brush another finger even along the edge of the touchpad by accident your pointer will move or not function till you figure out a good way to use your touchpad with a single finger.

I might add that popularity of notebooks and the unpopularity of touchpads has spurred a market for micro/travel/wireless mice.