Official HP iPAQ hx4700 Specs Posted To HP's Site

[Janak Parekh]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://h18000.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/11982_div/11982_div.PDF' target='_blank'>http://h18000.www1.hp.com/products/...v/11982_div.PDF</a><br /><br /></div>Looks like HP's readying their website in preparation for Monday's announcement. The above link takes you to the "quick specs" for the hx4700, which includes diagrams of all the components on the unit (interestingly, looks like IR is on the bottom) as well as a list of specs: <li> Stunning 4" Transflective VGA TFT color display, Landscape and Portrait display modes<br /><li> Intel® PXA270 624 MHz Processor<br /><li> Integrated touchpad navigation with mouse-like cursor<br /><li> Integrated WLAN 802.11b<br /><li> Integrated Bluetooth®1 wireless technology<br /><li> Integrated IrDA FIR (fast infrared)<br /><li> HP ProtectTools security application<br /><li> Pre-installed Pocket Informant 5.0 personal information management (PIM) application<br /><li> Integrated SDIO and CF Type II expansion slots<br /><li> Magnesium-alloy body for additional durability<br /><li> Microsoft® Windows Mobile™ 2003 Second Edition software for Pocket PC (Premium Edition)<br /><li> Removable/rechargeable 1800 mAh Lithiom-Ion battery<br /><li> Pocket versions of familiar applications like Microsoft® Outlook®, Word and Excel Check out the bundled PI. Good choice, HP! :mrgreen: Additionally, the device has 192MB of "memory", of which 135MB is available: 80MB of flash (File Store), and the remainder is SDRAM. We, as well as other sites, have covered most of these specs, but it's nice to see an official set all in one place.

[JPack]

hx4700, rx3700/3400/3100:
http://discussion.brighthand.com/showthread.php?s=a6b0b2d0cb5c6dab9dc04cb93a676121&threadid=107899

rz1700:
http://discussion.brighthand.com/showthread.php?s=a6b0b2d0cb5c6dab9dc04cb93a676121&threadid=107901

h6300:
http://discussion.brighthand.com/showthread.php?s=a6b0b2d0cb5c6dab9dc04cb93a676121&threadid=107900

[OSUKid7]

Awesome! Think this will finally get me to move to PI. :) I had read that before but didn't know if I should believe it.

[Duncan]

rz1715:Up to 25 MB user available memory including 10 MB iPAQ File Store) Including??? So does that mean only 15MB of usable RAM...? Can't be...!

[OSUKid7]

Wo, the IR port on the 4700 series is on the bottom. What's up with that??

[Kevin Daly]

Good selection of Bluetooth profiles as well (I see for instance that like the 5550 this one has the headset profile)...and I note with approval "1.2 compliant".
I'm curious to see how that touchpad is exposed to programming APIs...and praying that it generates the same events as the DPad.
Has anyone seen a photo of the flip cover? (I know it's a little point, but I'm a Jornada person after all...so I have a fondness for flip covers).
80 megs of File Store is also very nice.

Oh, and after their last "Enterprise" model, it's good to see the headphone jack back in a sensible position.

Despite the device not being as pretty as I'd like, this spec has an awful lot to recommend it.

[PR.]

Can HP ship some to the UK please, thanks :D

Must have it!!!

Some interesting stuff in the PDF:

Only one stylus
No USB header?
Solid Blue LED for wireless connections (someone here complained about the flashing lights :))
The IR port is on the bottom so not much use for a remote control
Does it use the same docking connector as the 5xxx?

[scargill]

Can HP ship some to the UK please, thanks :D



No USB header?
The IR port is on the bottom so not much use for a remote control
Does it use the same docking connector as the 5xxx?

Damn! I want one here in the UK too, but have to find out how expensive it is first, I'm not sure if a VGA screen really is worth it that much.
As the other points, USB headers don't tend to be pointed out too much do they? Someone will probably find it has one!
I'm gutted about the IR, I use Nevo still quite alot, not to mention my IR keyboard (but I guess it'd always be run landscape anyway)
and if it is the same docking as the 5xxx, will it be the same as the 39xx?

[Kevin Daly]

The IR port is on the bottom so not much use for a remote control

It doesn't have consumer IR in any case.

To be honest, I've always thought that while consumer IR on a Pocket PC is a neat trick, that's an awful lot of money to pay for a universal remote.

Now, if we start seeing applicances with Bluetooth, that could be interesting (the advantages of not having to point at the appliance in question are obvious...as is the increased range)

[darrylb]

Pocket Informant in ROM! Finally - that frees up 2.5 Mb RAM not including the icon pack!

[Jorlin]

So the HP 4700 does not seem to support USB hosting...

So we will not be able to use USB peripherals with it like a USB-HD... :cry:


People who want that feature must stick with the Loox720 or Asus 730 - which really are two different devices. (Take a look at www.firstloox.org )

[Jorlin]

Pocket Informant in ROM! Finally - that frees up 2.5 Mb RAM not including the icon pack!

Beware that reading from the ROM or any flash storage makes applications like PI or Today Plugins slower than running from the RAM.

I do not believe that HP made a good decision to add more ROM instead of RAM... :/

[darrylb]

Pocket Informant in ROM! Finally - that frees up 2.5 Mb RAM not including the icon pack!

Beware that reading from the ROM or any flash storage makes applications like PI or Today Plugins slower than running from the RAM.

I do not believe that HP made a good decision to add more ROM instead of RAM... :/

Actually, if you read it, it does not say whether it is in ROM but it is not bundled on the CD, so I've made the assumption that it is in ROM.

Installing to the FileStore on my 4150 has not been a problem... Why would flash be any different?

[Duncan]

To be honest, I've always thought that while consumer IR on a Pocket PC is a neat trick, that's an awful lot of money to pay for a universal remote.

Odd argument. We are talking about value added - not the purpose of the purchase. For my money CIR makes more sense than FIR. With BT and WiFi built-in - what *is* the point of Fast IR?

Now I frequently end up in situations where I need to control a TV without access to the (usually lost) remote. Plus - to know that my PPC, wherever I am, can operate pretty much anything around me - well, that is a useful thing...! (Not to mention - universal remotes that do what a PPC with software can do are often just as if not more costly...).

Now, if we start seeing applicances with Bluetooth, that could be interesting (the advantages of not having to point at the appliance in question are obvious...as is the increased range)

I can't see it myself. Bluetooth is a wonderful thing - but IR is perfect for remotes. Cheap, very long and wide range, very low power drain - and who need to point them? I don't know about anyone else but I just aim my TV remote anywhere - and it still works...! :)

[Kevin Daly]

I do not believe that HP made a good decision to add more ROM instead of RAM... :/
A good case could be made either way. That 80 mb File Store for instance is an excellent way of making sure that installed programs are not lost in the event of failing to keep the device charged (you know, because you spent five days in line waiting to go through Customs at the airport, that sort of thing)...and once an application has been loaded into RAM you lose the delay (which is perhaps why MS are so insistent about applications not having a "Close" button).
Given that Pocket PC applications don't typically need a lot of run-time memory, I think it's a fair trade-off.
And you have more RAM than a typical PC circa 1996.

[jlp]

The IR port is on the bottom so not much use for a remote control

It doesn't have consumer IR in any case.

To be honest, I've always thought that while consumer IR on a Pocket PC is a neat trick, that's an awful lot of money to pay for a universal remote.

Now, if we start seeing applicances with Bluetooth, that could be interesting (the advantages of not having to point at the appliance in question are obvious...as is the increased range)

See your IF is the keyword here; and it's a huge IF. IR has 1,000 times more application than BT in consumer devices. There are far more cell phones with IR than BT. Plus all the TV, VCR, DVD players, satellite receivers, Hi-Fi components, etc. etc. out there plus a handful of portable CD players and what not. All of these have IR and chances you'll find these types of devices with BT within a few years are dim; not even sure that BT will have any future in household devices while IR is present now in many consumer home devices.

Only solution would be to press remote program editors to release a version that automatically rotates the screen 180° each time you access it. But that's still awefully awckwards.

Alternatively you can use accessories that add CIR type compatibilities in a tiny module that plugs into the headphone jack. But that's equally awckwards as it's something sticking out and prone to breakage (and costs extra); and it has to prove compatible with the ipaq as well.

Plus that accessory is a nightmare for all those who put their device in a case; either you can't close the case coz there's no hole provided, or if there's one you can't open and close the case with the module on to access the program to control your IR devices.

[jlp]

Now I see it has only 64 MB RAM and 128 MB ROM. Does it have the same memory implementation as seems the case with the Motorola MPx? I.e. where RAM is only allocated to program execution memory, while the ROM is allocated to OS/system files plus user installed programs and data!!

The latter which would be the 80 MB Rompaq (iPAQ File Store) while the rest -57 MB- is for the OS/system files (WinCE/PPC UI and apps: P.XL, P.Outlook, P.Word, etc.)

[Fishie]

So the HP 4700 does not seem to support USB hosting...

So we will not be able to use USB peripherals with it like a USB-HD... :cry:


People who want that feature must stick with the Loox720 or Asus 730 - which really are two different devices. (Take a look at www.firstloox.org )

It does, USB 2.0 even.

[Duncan]

It does, USB 2.0 even.

No. You are getting confued with USB client - which the hx4700 does support at USB 2.0 level.

Actually the PXA27x series of processors doesn't support USB 2.0 host anyway - just 1.1. Difficult to see wh they didn't implement hosting - I'd rather assumed the early rumours that it did were true - until today.

[Jorlin]

So the HP 4700 does not seem to support USB hosting...

So we will not be able to use USB peripherals with it like a USB-HD... :cry:


People who want that feature must stick with the Loox720 or Asus 730 - which really are two different devices. (Take a look at www.firstloox.org )

It does, USB 2.0 even.

On www.xscale.de it says it does not support this feature. They state that these are the final specs. I supports USB 2.0 for syncing. Does it support other USB devices...?

[Jorlin]

Now I see it has only 64 MB RAM and 128 MB ROM. Does it have the same memory implementation as seems the case with the Motorola MPx? I.e. where RAM is only allocated to program execution memory, while the ROM is allocated to OS/system files plus user installed programs and data!!

In that case user have to install those programms on the ROM... I hope everybody understands that. (PPC freaks will know it... AS does not)

[Jorlin]

I do not believe that HP made a good decision to add more ROM instead of RAM... :/
A good case could be made either way. That 80 mb File Store for instance is an excellent way of making sure that installed programs are not lost in the event of failing to keep the device charged (you know, because you spent five days in line waiting to go through Customs at the airport, that sort of thing)...and once an application has been loaded into RAM you lose the delay (which is perhaps why MS are so insistent about applications not having a "Close" button).
Given that Pocket PC applications don't typically need a lot of run-time memory, I think it's a fair trade-off.
And you have more RAM than a typical PC circa 1996.

Good point... so everything has to be loaded into the RAM to reduce the delay... why not installing it directly to it then. ;)

Keeping in mind that VGA applications need 4x more video storage than QVGA applications, memory is an issue...

[Duncan]

Gotta love the touchpad, magnesium casing and 624Mhz processor mind. The hx4700 is frustratingly brilliant in parts and just too oddly thought out in others...

[Jorlin]

Gotta love the touchpad, magnesium casing and 624Mhz processor mind. The hx4700 is frustratingly brilliant in parts and just too oddly thought out in others...

I have to agree.

It is a matter of fact tha the 624MHz cpu will be one of the most important selling arguments of this device.

It is a device for PPC freaks - no question.

On the other hand, business people or people who are seeking after a alround device with neat features and a very good cpu might be happier with an ASUS 730 or a PocketLOOX 720.

(IMHO, the design of the LOOX720 [even the casing] seems to be superior to the Ipaq 4700)

[jlp]

Now I see it has only 64 MB RAM and 128 MB ROM. Does it have the same memory implementation as seems the case with the Motorola MPx? I.e. where RAM is only allocated to program execution memory, while the ROM is allocated to OS/system files plus user installed programs and data!!

In that case user have to install those programms on the ROM... I hope everybody understands that. (PPC freaks will know it... AS does not)

In this case as you say (I was asking not affirming), everything you add into this ipaq (additional programs from CD, internet, etc.) and all your data (contacts, appointments, notes, docs, sounds, emails, etc.) would be stored into the ROM.

[Duncan]

It is a device for PPC freaks - no question.

If that touch pad has a sufficiently fast response time - I could see the hx4700 being a great games machine (can't quite see why some have suggested it is bad for games?).

I'm very curious to see how all the new processor speeds match up to the 400Mhz PXA255/263 processors (especially in VGA).

[Jorlin]

Now I see it has only 64 MB RAM and 128 MB ROM. Does it have the same memory implementation as seems the case with the Motorola MPx? I.e. where RAM is only allocated to program execution memory, while the ROM is allocated to OS/system files plus user installed programs and data!!

In that case user have to install those programms on the ROM... I hope everybody understands that. (PPC freaks will know it... AS does not)

In this case as you say (I was asking not affirming), everything you add into this ipaq (additional programs from CD, internet, etc.) and all your data (contacts, appointments, notes, docs, sounds, emails, etc.) would be stored into the ROM.

This has to be the way to go... certainly. Only this would make sense to me having a 128MB ROM and a 64MB RAM.

Still this is not the best way to handle it. ROM is not faster than any flash storage:
So I could also use a CF card or SD card to store those applications. Still I will need 4 times as much video storage for VGA optimized applications....
This must be stored within the RAM - no matter what. 64MB might not be sufficient for that in the long run.
Keeping that in mind you can say: Crucial applications which need very fast loading and reloading should still be installed within the RAM (today plugins, OS surpportive applications) to maintain the maximum of performance. So a larger RAM (>64MB) is indeed more useful as the common 64MB. More stable storage will not solve the problem.
Will registry chages be stored on the ROM or RAM? If it is the RAM (as normally on every PPC) your installations will be gone when the battery is drained even if you have installed everything on the ROM...

For that reason we are seeing backup batteries again since one year (a shame that there were devices without them)...

[Jorlin]

[quote]

I'm very curious to see how all the new processor speeds match up to the 400Mhz PXA255/263 processors (especially in VGA).



Certainly one of the most interesting questions... How will be the difference between 520MHz and 624MHZ on VGA... There must be a reason why Asus and FSC stick with the 520MHz cpu instead of makeing their devices ultimately high-end...

[Duncan]

There must be a reason why Asus and FSC stick with the 520MHz cpu instead of makeing their devices ultimately high-end...

Probably cost. The 624Mhz must be some way more expensive...

[Jorlin]

There must be a reason why Asus and FSC stick with the 520MHz cpu instead of makeing their devices ultimately high-end...

Probably cost. The 624Mhz must be some way more expensive...

The only reason I thought of as well...
But is this a criteria if you look at the PPC market and all those PPC freaks waiting for high-end VGA devices?

[arnage2]

maybe it has to do with battery life. Remember how cheap the X30 is, and it has 624mhz

[mar2k]

Does the hx4700 include the new Intel 2700G graphics accelerator chip ("Marathon")? I don't see it on the specs but I don't know if that is an indication either way whether it is a part of the package or not.

[Kati Compton]

It is a device for PPC freaks - no question.

If that touch pad has a sufficiently fast response time - I could see the hx4700 being a great games machine (can't quite see why some have suggested it is bad for games?).
I find a touchpad on my laptop far less responsive for gaming than a controller. With a controller, you can FEEL what you're doing to a greater degree. You know where you are. With a touchpad, you may not know where your finger is. It has the dots at the NSEW points (but not equally spaced), which would help a bit, but what about diagonals?

[Jonathan1]

Pocket Informant in ROM! Finally - that frees up 2.5 Mb RAM not including the icon pack!

Not all that smart if you ask me.
This app is loaded from ROM right? What about those people who don't care about PI or want to use AF or some other PIM client? Also what about future upgrades to the client? That's a waste of ROM if you ask me. I'm assuming that the ROM is divvied out like a partition right? So you have the system ROM that can't be written to (Unless the OEM released an update.) and then you have a Safe Store type environment that is open to the user. If this is how it works, please correct me if I'm wrong, then it seems like its a waste. They could have taken that space that PI is using and dumped it into the Safe Store area to give the user a few more MB of space to use. Or maybe that is where the app is going to be out of the box? :confused totally:

Why couldn't they simply have bundled the app with the device on an external CD?!? having it built into the device seems *shrugs* less flexable. But again we don't know where the app is stored so.

[Jonathan1]

I do not believe that HP made a good decision to add more ROM instead of RAM... :/
A good case could be made either way. That 80 mb File Store for instance is an excellent way of making sure that installed programs are not lost in the event of failing to keep the device charged

This is a bad assumption. The problem with this thinking is the idea that these apps aren't in any way tied to the OS. Unfortunately the Pocket PC has the damnable registry. So say your RAM goes poof. You lose any settings apps like PI and AF set in Windows registry. And while they can work it generally makes the apps funky. Example at least in past versions of PI. It loses the fact that I registered the app and the various associations in the OS are gone or was that Resco Explorer? At any rate the only real use for me is storing the cab files in safe store so I can extract them and load the app on the fly from there. That is the only way to assure that you get a good restore after a hard format.

[ultraman]

I really want to know fast the TI1510 200Mhz CPU used in 6300 for gaming and video playing.

[ultraman]

Don't know whether HP will offer WM2003SE upgrade to 6300 later/

???

[Duncan]

I do not believe that HP made a good decision to add more ROM instead of RAM... :/
A good case could be made either way. That 80 mb File Store for instance is an excellent way of making sure that installed programs are not lost in the event of failing to keep the device charged

This is a bad assumption. The problem with this thinking is the idea that these apps aren't in any way tied to the OS. Unfortunately the Pocket PC has the damnable registry. So say your RAM goes poof. You lose any settings apps like PI and AF set in Windows registry. And while they can work it generally makes the apps funky. Example at least in past versions of PI. It loses the fact that I registered the app and the various associations in the OS are gone or was that Resco Explorer? At any rate the only real use for me is storing the cab files in safe store so I can extract them and load the app on the fly from there. That is the only way to assure that you get a good restore after a hard format.

Of course the registry can be backed up to ROM automatically (say when battery life hits a certain level). Then a simple restore and you are back to normal.

But - RAM is so much faster. It is still, to my mind, better to have programs running in a larger RAM (for speed) with the whole RAM program space set to auto-backup to ROM or memory card. Now if HP had given the hx4700 128MB ROM and 128MB RAM - this would be a redundant discussion...

[Duncan]

It is a device for PPC freaks - no question.

If that touch pad has a sufficiently fast response time - I could see the hx4700 being a great games machine (can't quite see why some have suggested it is bad for games?).
I find a touchpad on my laptop far less responsive for gaming than a controller. With a controller, you can FEEL what you're doing to a greater degree. You know where you are. With a touchpad, you may not know where your finger is. It has the dots at the NSEW points (but not equally spaced), which would help a bit, but what about diagonals?

Ah - now I'm assuming (and I know - that makes an ass out of U and me...! ;)) that those dots are more than dots - that in the non-cursor mode they act as D-pad presses. if that is the case then that could mean instant response with no 'jamming' as can occur with a D-pad. I would also hazard a guess that your fingers only need to be in the right 'zone' to make a virtual D-pad press.

The touchpad on my laptop has a zoning function like that built-in - and I use it all the time in the few games I play.

[Kevin Daly]

Good point... so everything has to be loaded into the RAM to reduce the delay... why not installing it directly to it then. ;)

So you don't occupy RAM that isn't being used.
And in any case, I don't think the Pocket PC has execution in place (although I might be wrong about that - I'd really like to find out), which means that you'd be taking up RAM for storage and then additional RAM at run time.

[Kevin Daly]

This is a bad assumption. The problem with this thinking is the idea that these apps aren't in any way tied to the OS. Unfortunately the Pocket PC has the damnable registry. So say your RAM goes poof. You lose any settings apps like PI and AF set in Windows registry.
Ah, but the Registry is so 1995. You can count on it being used less and less as time goes by.

[omikron.sk]

Does the hx4700 include the new Intel 2700G graphics accelerator chip ("Marathon")? I don't see it on the specs but I don't know if that is an indication either way whether it is a part of the package or not.
AFAIK PXA270 include Wireless MMX, but I'm not sure about the Marathon.

[omikron.sk]

Still this is not the best way to handle it. ROM is not faster than any flash storage:
So I could also use a CF card or SD card ...
Wrong! Built-in ROMs were and will probably always be faster than any external flash storage you can add-on. If for no other reason, then at least because of the interface, that is IMO a bit different if the device has a CF or SD slot and if it does have some chip directly on the "motherboard". I use CFs, SDs and my iPaq File Store a lot and I'm pretty sure, that built-in ROM is a way much faster. I also tried a Pocket Mechanic some time ago and iPaq File Store gave me 2-3 times better numbers on read / write.

[DanielTS]

Actually the PXA27x series of processors doesn't support USB 2.0 host anyway - just 1.1. Difficult to see wh they didn't implement hosting - I'd rather assumed the early rumours that it did were true - until today.
8O :roll:

http://www.intel.com/design/pca/images/bd_pxa27x.gif

[Duncan]

Actually the PXA27x series of processors doesn't support USB 2.0 host anyway - just 1.1. Difficult to see wh they didn't implement hosting - I'd rather assumed the early rumours that it did were true - until today.
8O :roll:

http://www.intel.com/design/pca/images/bd_pxa27x.gif

What point are you trying to make...? All that diagram shows is that the PXA27x processors support USB host! Which is exactly what I say in the section of my post that you have quoted!

What I also said - again in the above quote - is that the PXA27x procesor doesn't support USB 2.0 host. I say that because it doesn't! It supports (as I say, yet again, in the above quote...!) 1.1 host only (in fact it only supports 1.1 natively for client and host. I refer you to the words of Intel:
Does the Intel® PXA27x family processors support USB Host in addition to USB Client?
Yes, the Intel® PXA27x family processors, supports USB HOST and Client (Rev. 1.1 compliance) and USB On-The-Go (OTG).

So - go on... what IS your point? :roll:

[ctmagnus]

But is this a criteria if you look at the PPC market and all those PPC freaks waiting for high-end VGA devices?

Actually, I'd guess that the PPC freaks aren't the ones putting all (most of) the money in the OEMs' bank accounts. I'd hazard a guess that they do so for a lot of third-party software developers but not for the hardware OEMs of the actual Pocket PC units. Of course, whenever HP, Dell, etc offer add-on hardware then the PPC freaks supply that much more money to the OEMs.

[ctmagnus]

So say your RAM goes poof. You lose any settings apps like PI and AF set in Windows registry.

Later versions of (at least) PI use .reg files for these settings. So after a hard-resert, you recreate the partnership which transfers the contents of the \My Documents\ folder, including \My Documents\WebIS, to the device. Fire up PI and all the apps' registry settings are recreated when the app looks for the .reg files it uses.

[DanielTS]

So - go on... what IS your point? :roll:
Like you, I don’t understand why PXA 27x based PPC from HP and Dell (Axim X30) don’t support USB Host.

[Duncan]

So - go on... what IS your point? :roll:
Like you, I don’t understand why PXA 27x based PPC from HP and Dell (Axim X30) don’t support USB Host.

Ah - I must have my grumpy head on this morning - I thought you were using the diagram to point out (reduntantly) that the PXA27x supports USB host (or that you were diagreeing with me that the processors only support USB 1.1). My apologies for misunderstanding you!

Yes - it is quite extraordinary that, when USB host is on the chip (!), that the normally very canny Dell and HP fail to implement it....!

[ricksfiona]

Man, HP would've sold so many more of the hx4700 if it had 128MB RAM. At least they're helping me save money :wink:

Maybe someone will figure out how to graft an extra 64MB of RAM onto the device. Now that would ROCK!

[Jorlin]

This is a bad assumption. The problem with this thinking is the idea that these apps aren't in any way tied to the OS. Unfortunately the Pocket PC has the damnable registry. So say your RAM goes poof. You lose any settings apps like PI and AF set in Windows registry.
Ah, but the Registry is so 1995. You can count on it being used less and less as time goes by.

Certainly you are right. But if only one application you are using often stores settings within the registry, it remains a crucial aspect.

[Jorlin]

Still this is not the best way to handle it. ROM is not faster than any flash storage:
So I could also use a CF card or SD card ...
Wrong! Built-in ROMs were and will probably always be faster than any external flash storage you can add-on. If for no other reason, then at least because of the interface, that is IMO a bit different if the device has a CF or SD slot and if it does have some chip directly on the "motherboard". I use CFs, SDs and my iPaq File Store a lot and I'm pretty sure, that built-in ROM is a way much faster. I also tried a Pocket Mechanic some time ago and iPaq File Store gave me 2-3 times better numbers on read / write.

You are right, but this was not really my point.
I wanted to point out that RAM is much faster than ROM. And if you need more storage (and for a maximum of performance ROM can only be storage) an exchangeable flash memory card is sufficient for that.
To be honest, 80MB accessible ROM might not be enough as storage for many. Those who use their PPC as a MP3-player demand more, those who use it as a navigation system need more to store the maps.

128MB ROM and 64MB RAM remains an odd partition of memory...

[Fishie]

It does, USB 2.0 even.

No. You are getting confued with USB client - which the hx4700 does support at USB 2.0 level.

Actually the PXA27x series of processors doesn't support USB 2.0 host anyway - just 1.1. Difficult to see wh they didn't implement hosting - I'd rather assumed the early rumours that it did were true - until today.

Oops my bad, sorry.

[Fishie]

It is a device for PPC freaks - no question.

If that touch pad has a sufficiently fast response time - I could see the hx4700 being a great games machine (can't quite see why some have suggested it is bad for games?).

I'm very curious to see how all the new processor speeds match up to the 400Mhz PXA255/263 processors (especially in VGA).

Its bad for games becouse a touchpad lacks tactile feedback, and many games will lack recognition as well.

[Duncan]

It is a device for PPC freaks - no question.

If that touch pad has a sufficiently fast response time - I could see the hx4700 being a great games machine (can't quite see why some have suggested it is bad for games?).

I'm very curious to see how all the new processor speeds match up to the 400Mhz PXA255/263 processors (especially in VGA).

Its bad for games becouse a touchpad lacks tactile feedback, and many games will lack recognition as well.

Ah - y'see I'm more of an RTS kind of games player - so that wouldn't occur to me! ;)

[snowlion]

This is a bad assumption. The problem with this thinking is the idea that these apps aren't in any way tied to the OS. Unfortunately the Pocket PC has the damnable registry. So say your RAM goes poof. You lose any settings apps like PI and AF set in Windows registry.
Ah, but the Registry is so 1995. You can count on it being used less and less as time goes by.

not sure whether you're right on this one. almost all the apps i use store the registration/preferences info in the registry. a hard-reset makes some unusable and on most you have to re-register.

the real solution is if can the registry be stored in flash-rom. can it?

[Jorlin]

This is a bad assumption. The problem with this thinking is the idea that these apps aren't in any way tied to the OS. Unfortunately the Pocket PC has the damnable registry. So say your RAM goes poof. You lose any settings apps like PI and AF set in Windows registry.
Ah, but the Registry is so 1995. You can count on it being used less and less as time goes by.

not sure whether you're right on this one. almost all the apps i use store the registration/preferences info in the registry. a hard-reset makes some unusable and on most you have to re-register.

the real solution is if can the registry be stored in flash-rom. can it?

Do not make this such a big problem. As said before, I am glad to see that almost all new PPCs have exchangeable batteries and a backup-battery ensuring that the RAM is safe for a couple of days even if the battery has been drained...

The safest thing to do still is creating backups every now and then.

[Fishie]

It is a device for PPC freaks - no question.

If that touch pad has a sufficiently fast response time - I could see the hx4700 being a great games machine (can't quite see why some have suggested it is bad for games?).

I'm very curious to see how all the new processor speeds match up to the 400Mhz PXA255/263 processors (especially in VGA).

Its bad for games becouse a touchpad lacks tactile feedback, and many games will lack recognition as well.

Ah - y'see I'm more of an RTS kind of games player - so that wouldn't occur to me! ;)

Why would you even wanna play an RTS with the touchpad when you have the entire touchscreen to fiddle with?
Thats such a non argument that it defies believe.
For RTS games you have the entire friggin screen so leave the joypad there for run and jump games.

[bugsy]

I think most of you are missing the point around this configuration. The 4700 Series is clearly targeted at the enterprise market. It may be of interest to others, but as someone else pointed out, that small number is not going to sustain the device. the critical components for the enterprise are going to be protection of data, ease of problem recovery and user experience. Having a larger amount of ROM to store the enterprise application and data is much better suited to their requirements. Not meant to argue or flame anyone, but we need to keep in mind the primary market for each device. You can disagree with the market focus, but the requirements are very real.

[Rob Alexander]

That 80 mb File Store for instance is an excellent way of making sure that installed programs are not lost in the event of failing to keep the device charged

This is a bad assumption. The problem with this thinking is the idea that these apps aren't in any way tied to the OS. Unfortunately the Pocket PC has the damnable registry. So say your RAM goes poof. You lose any settings apps like PI and AF set in Windows registry.

Clearly, they've taken a different tack with this device than any previous one in choosing to have you store your programs in ROM. Until someone actually gets one, we don't really know how they have (or have not) addressed this. They may well have stored the registry in ROM or they may provide a registry backup built-in. If they haven't stumbled over their own cleverness with this idea, it could be designed in such a way as to allow you to hard reset and recover your entire system without having to restore from your desktop. Even as I say that, I'm skeptical that they actually have done these things, but we won't know until they arrive.

[ctmagnus]

With everything in ROM, how is one supposed to do the usual hardreset-reinstall routine that many like to go through from time to time?

[darrylb]

With everything in ROM, how is one supposed to do the usual hardreset-reinstall routine that many like to go through from time to time?

On the 4150, etc, there is a utility called Flash Format which you can use to quickly format the Filestore. So a hard reset becomes a two step process rather than a one step proces...

[WyattEarp]

I think most of you are missing the point around this configuration. The 4700 Series is clearly targeted at the enterprise market. It may be of interest to others, but as someone else pointed out, that small number is not going to sustain the device. the critical components for the enterprise are going to be protection of data, ease of problem recovery and user experience. Having a larger amount of ROM to store the enterprise application and data is much better suited to their requirements. Not meant to argue or flame anyone, but we need to keep in mind the primary market for each device. You can disagree with the market focus, but the requirements are very real.

While I do agree, I am still disappointed with only an 80MB File Store. Even I you add up all the user available memory you only 135MB. The iPAQ h5555 still has more with 144MB even with a significatly smaller File Store. Call me picky but this approach is a step backwards and cheats the end user IMO. Don't tout 128MB when all I get is 80MB. There should have been enough memory for the built-in programs and OS to allow for 128MB to be free to the user. That would have been a much better set up and selling point.

[alex_kac]

So say your RAM goes poof. You lose any settings apps like PI and AF set in Windows registry.

Later versions of (at least) PI use .reg files for these settings. So after a hard-resert, you recreate the partnership which transfers the contents of the \My Documents\ folder, including \My Documents\WebIS, to the device. Fire up PI and all the apps' registry settings are recreated when the app looks for the .reg files it uses.

Actually - not really. We don't use the registry for anything. Well...for the path to the Icon store, but that's it. We use .reg (or with PI 5 we changed it to .txt) files as our native preferences file store. We stopped using the registry because on PDA devices there is just too much info to store that people need to move between devices too often.

[alex_kac]

Good point... so everything has to be loaded into the RAM to reduce the delay... why not installing it directly to it then. ;)

So you don't occupy RAM that isn't being used.
And in any case, I don't think the Pocket PC has execution in place (although I might be wrong about that - I'd really like to find out), which means that you'd be taking up RAM for storage and then additional RAM at run time.

I believe PPC does have execution in place. I don't know if its actually USED, but I am pretty sure that somebody at MS told me years ago that it did have the ability.

[alex_kac]

My two cents on the whole ROM/RAM issue: Lets try it first. It may be a first step to a new way of working in Windows Mobile. It may end up being better in the long run. Its hard to say right now since almost nobody has a device like this.

I think people need to give it a chance. Yes, the device is marketed towards the enterprise and who knows - perhaps there will be a SECOND version (I mean look at previous HP devices where you had TWO versions of the same unit marketed towards two markets) that may provide a slightly different configuration of memory and such. I don't this to be the case, I'm just saying going by past Compaq/HP releases it very well may be the case.

[surur]

Alex.. you may have some inside knowledge. In this device, is the my documents folder and the program files folder in persistent flash ram, or are they still in volatile ram?

If the earlier, it would be a revolutionary development, and would make devices much more bulletproof. If the later, there is no real improvement over having a SD card always in place.

BTW: on my XDA 2 (a 128 Mb wm2003 device) I was unable to force the device to allocate more than 32 megabytes to program execution, even though 64Mb was available. This is obviously a bug with wm2003, but I wonder if this has been fixed. Again, Alex, as a developer, you must know about this?

Surur

[coverthawk]

Anyone notice in the specification PDF that included in the box is a "plastic flip cover" Could be like the Jornada's?

[jlp]

That 80 mb File Store for instance is an excellent way of making sure that installed programs are not lost in the event of failing to keep the device charged

This is a bad assumption. The problem with this thinking is the idea that these apps aren't in any way tied to the OS. Unfortunately the Pocket PC has the damnable registry. So say your RAM goes poof. You lose any settings apps like PI and AF set in Windows registry.

Clearly, they've taken a different tack with this device than any previous one in choosing to have you store your programs in ROM. Until someone actually gets one, we don't really know how they have (or have not) addressed this. They may well have stored the registry in ROM or they may provide a registry backup built-in. If they haven't stumbled over their own cleverness with this idea, it could be designed in such a way as to allow you to hard reset and recover your entire system without having to restore from your desktop. Even as I say that, I'm skeptical that they actually have done these things, but we won't know until they arrive.


One good solution is:
1) schedule daily backups, the ipaqs come with Sprite Software Pocket Backup, at least an HP OEM version as I understand
2) carry all your cab files on an SD card in your wallet

So unless you have tons of programs you can be up and running in no time, with your registery clean and working.

.

[jlp]

Don't tout 128MB when all I get is 80MB. There should have been enough memory for the built-in programs and OS to allow for 128MB to be free to the user. That would have been a much better set up and selling point.

You get 64 MB RAM, of which 55 are available plus 80 MB in the filestore that's 135 MB TOTAL like HP says!!

[DaleReeck]

Don't tout 128MB when all I get is 80MB. There should have been enough memory for the built-in programs and OS to allow for 128MB to be free to the user. That would have been a much better set up and selling point.

You get 64 MB RAM, of which 55 are available plus 80 MB in the filestore that's 135 MB TOTAL like HP says!!

The only problem with that is, there are many apps that either require installation in RAM or, even if you specifiy a storage card or flash rom for install, still requires a portion of itself, like DLL's, to be installed in RAM. If you don't install many apps, you might get away with 55MB RAM. But if you are like me and install tons of apps, 55MB can become 20MB pretty quickly no matter how much you try installing to storage card. Also, most apps can only execute in RAM. If you have an app with large resource files, you may have trouble running the app cleanly if you have only 20-30MB of RAM free. Very shortsighted on HP's part.

[Jonathan1]

Do not make this such a big problem. As said before, I am glad to see that almost all new PPCs have exchangeable batteries and a backup-battery ensuring that the RAM is safe for a couple of days even if the battery has been drained...

The safest thing to do still is creating backups every now and then.

Which makes a huge 80MB safestore pointless does it not? The only use I see for the safestore is protection from data lose. e.g. a word or notes doc doesn't go poof. I don't see such a huge benefit from the standpoint of having your apps saved after a hard reset.
Heck I would have rather had HP take that cash (Since ROM is typically more expensive then RAM.) and use it for RAM instead of ROM and maybe offer a deep discount on a 256MB SD card for the device.

[Stake]

This whole RAM business is still speculation. There's obviously a reason why they switched to the ROM model with dedicated 55MB RAM. We all should take a wait and see attitude and then evaluate why the engineers thought this was a better choice. I wish the manual was posted somewhere for the 4750!

I think I would be hard pressed to use all 55MB of RAM if there's a 80MB filestore. The only program that might utilize all of it would be Pocket Artist and that's if the image is really large. I've been surviving with a device with a total of 64MB with no real issues running programs. Unless I was doing heavy, heavy multitasking, I don't think the RAM will be an issue.

So what programs would utilize 20-30MB in an instant?

[Hx4700]

WyattEarp or someone---- please unconfuse me.....
The memory numbers still don't add up to me.
Why isn't there about 63mb of RAM (as with my Axim) and about 90-100 of ROM?? Is the SE OS that big or what else is in ROM??
Thanks... Ron...

[darrylb]

WyattEarp or someone---- please unconfuse me.....
The memory numbers still don't add up to me.
Why isn't there about 63mb of RAM (as with my Axim) and about 90-100 of ROM?? Is the SE OS that big or what else is in ROM??
Thanks... Ron...

It's still got 64 Mb RAM, but only 55Mb is accessable. This is the same on the 2210, 4150, etc. The Total RAM does not equal the user accessable RAM.

The used ROM size is probably bigger due to the inclusion of things like Pocket Informant (2.5 Mb). Anyway, it roughly works out...

[Kati Compton]

More ROM => more storage space that isn't erased if you have to hard reset. Think of it as a built-in additional 64MB flash card.

[Hx4700]

darrylb--
Thanks for the reply.
I understand the use of rom vs ram. But my Axim started off with 63 of the 64mb ram usable and 22 or so mb for safestore of the 48mb rom giving about 26mb of the 48 for the OS.
Maybe 55 of the 64 usable is an HP thing :)
Ron...

[DaleReeck]

darrylb--
Thanks for the reply.
I understand the use of rom vs ram. But my Axim started off with 63 of the 64mb ram usable and 22 or so mb for safestore of the 48mb rom giving about 26mb of the 48 for the OS.
Maybe 55 of the 64 usable is an HP thing :)
Ron...

I think it has something to do with the ROM memory type - strataflash vs. NAND. NAND memory is slower and must copy a portion of it's ROM to main memory to increase speed. The 55 out of 64 isn't just an HP thing, many other PPC's do this. Those that have all their RAM available use strataflash ROM - faster but more expensive. It doesn't need to copy any part of itself to main memory. It also has the advantage of selective updates. You can upgrade only parts of the ROM without having to hard reset the device. NAND reuqires you to wipe the whole thing out, requiring a hard reset.

If I'm remembering this correctly, that means that not only did the 4700 decrease usable RAM from 128MB (all of which was usable because of the use of strataflash ROM) to 64MB, but it also means that they went from better strataflash to cheaper, slower NAND ROM.

If this is true, that makes all this even more curious considering the top end processor, dual slots and VGA screen. Memory and storage on the 4700 definitely took a hit.

[WyattEarp]

WyattEarp or someone---- please unconfuse me.....
The memory numbers still don't add up to me.
Why isn't there about 63mb of RAM (as with my Axim) and about 90-100 of ROM?? Is the SE OS that big or what else is in ROM??
Thanks... Ron...

It's still got 64 Mb RAM, but only 55Mb is accessable. This is the same on the 2210, 4150, etc. The Total RAM does not equal the user accessable RAM.

The used ROM size is probably bigger due to the inclusion of things like Pocket Informant (2.5 Mb). Anyway, it roughly works out...

I understand your confusion my iPAQ h5555 has 126Mb of free RAM. The amount of available RAM is due to pre-installed apps that require RAM in order to work. Some apps use more space than others.

The numbers will never be the same until manufacturers add enough memory in RAM and ROM so that the advertised space is what the end-user gets as available space and not just a portion of it.

[WyattEarp]

darrylb--
Thanks for the reply.
I understand the use of rom vs ram. But my Axim started off with 63 of the 64mb ram usable and 22 or so mb for safestore of the 48mb rom giving about 26mb of the 48 for the OS.
Maybe 55 of the 64 usable is an HP thing :)
Ron...

I think it has something to do with the ROM memory type - strataflash vs. NAND. NAND memory is slower and must copy a portion of it's ROM to main memory to increase speed. The 55 out of 64 isn't just an HP thing, many other PPC's do this. Those that have all their RAM available use strataflash ROM - faster but more expensive. It doesn't need to copy any part of itself to main memory. It also has the advantage of selective updates. You can upgrade only parts of the ROM without having to hard reset the device. NAND reuqires you to wipe the whole thing out, requiring a hard reset.

If I'm remembering this correctly, that means that not only did the 4700 decrease usable RAM from 128MB (all of which was usable because of the use of strataflash ROM) to 64MB, but it also means that they went from better strataflash to cheaper, slower NAND ROM.

If this is true, that makes all this even more curious considering the top end processor, dual slots and VGA screen. Memory and storage on the 4700 definitely took a hit.

NAND memory can not execute in place as NOR memory. Pocket PCs with NOR Flash ROM can run programs will NAND Flash ROM cannot. So it you want to put programs in the FlashROM space you need a Pocket PC with NOR Flash ROM.

[elehcdn]

[quote=Duncan]It is a matter of fact tha the 624MHz cpu will be one of the most important selling arguments of this device.

It is a device for PPC freaks - no question.

On the other hand, business people or people who are seeking after a alround device with neat features and a very good cpu might be happier with an ASUS 730 or a PocketLOOX 720.

(IMHO, the design of the LOOX720 [even the casing] seems to be superior to the Ipaq 4700)

Except that in most corporate computing environments, it is the computer geeks in IS that make the purchasing decisions.

If design was all that important for business people, you would see a lot more Macs everywhere in business environments.

[mhowie]

Will the extended battery for the 2215 work with this unit?

Thanks,

[WyattEarp]

Do not make this such a big problem. As said before, I am glad to see that almost all new PPCs have exchangeable batteries and a backup-battery ensuring that the RAM is safe for a couple of days even if the battery has been drained...

The safest thing to do still is creating backups every now and then.

Which makes a huge 80MB safestore pointless does it not? The only use I see for the safestore is protection from data lose. e.g. a word or notes doc doesn't go poof. I don't see such a huge benefit from the standpoint of having your apps saved after a hard reset.
Heck I would have rather had HP take that cash (Since ROM is typically more expensive then RAM.) and use it for RAM instead of ROM and maybe offer a deep discount on a 256MB SD card for the device.

That's the whole point but not limited to just file storage. The larger FlashROM is for installing programs. This way if your PPC resets even if you have to restore from a back it will take less time because the FlashROM is not erased. Half my Apps are installed in FLashROM and it makes it alot easier to recover from a reset.

There is currently a shift in how PPCs work from a memory standpoint to make them more reliable. This will be done by moving apps into FlashROM instead of RAM. RAM will only be used for program execution like on a PC. Software vendors will have to change their install setups but that's the easy part. It's the users who will have to understand the change which is confusing because noone has informed us of such a change. This will be the memory model for future PPCs (more ROM less RAM). For those who read Pocket PC Magazine the article can be found in the Aug/Sep 2004 Vol. 7, No. 4 issue.

The idea is good but we will have to see if OEMs can create PPCs with a decent amount of RAM/ROM to satisfiy us power users who want everything.

If Pocket PC Techs makes a 128MB RAM upgrade for the 4700 then I will get one. Until then I'll be content with my 5555 and wait for the next incarnation of WM.

[Hx4700]

Dale and Wyatt -- Thanks -- Ron...