FirstLoox's List Of Upcoming VGA Devices

[Janak Parekh]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.firstloox.org/VGAppc.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.firstloox.org/VGAppc.htm</a><br /><br /></div>Duncan, over at FirstLoox, has compiled as many details as he's been able to get his hands on for three new devices: the iPAQ hx4700, the Asus A730, and the F/S Loox 720. If you haven't been watching the news closely, but are curious as to what your VGA options are, this is a good source to get an idea of the relative featureset of each. :)

[arnage2]

so much is known about these devices. why cant i just buy one now :P

[SeanH]

All those PDA’s have nice features. I wish you could combine them to create the perfect PDA. This would be the perfect PDA in my option.

CPU – Intel PXA270 running at 624 MHz
Memory – 128MB of SDRAM, 128MB of ROM
Display – 3.7” or 4” VGA (480x640)
Size – The size of the 4150 or smaller (114 x 71 x 13.5 mm)
Expansion – 1 SDIO/MMC slot (no CF)
Communication – CIR, Bluetooth 1.2 and WiFi
OS – Pocket PC 2003 SE

Sean

[arnage2]

128mb? how about 512mb of ram :D

[SeanH]

512MB might be a little to much to be price competitive. All the features I mentioned are shipping in different PDA’s today. I wish you could combine the best of each.

Sean

[Jason Dunn]

Display – 3.7” or 4” VGA (480x640)
Size – The size of the 4150 or smaller (114 x 71 x 13.5 mm)


You realize having a 4" screen and a 4150 size is basically impossible, right?

[SeanH]

You realize having a 4" screen and a 4150 size is basically impossible, right?
This is a post from a while ago.

4150: 114 x 71 x 13.5 mm
4.0" screen = 61 x 81 mm

It would be great if HP kept the form factor of the 4150 but added a 4” VGA display. The following can work:
(Top to bottom)
114mm tall with 10mm of plastic at the top, 81mm of screen and 23mm at the bottom for the buttons and pad/joystick.
(Side to side)
71mm wide with 5mm on each side.
(Thickness)
Make it thinner then 13.5mm, 7-10mm would be great.

This is very feasible.

Sean

[Hx4700]

SeanH-
For THE perfect ppc - the CF is needed -- best way for GPS (unless its built-in) with maps on SD, and other application CF cards. Plus my camera uses CF, so easy to swap. Plus I have a bucket load of CF cards of all sizes :)
Otherwise, let me know when you find this one....
Ron...

[SeanH]

Using a Bluetooth GPS is a lot easier then a CF GPS. Some people will always want a CF slots and that’s ok. I would rather sacrifice not having CF for a smaller PDA. Viewing images on a 3.5” PDA screen is not much different then viewing them on the 2” to 3” screen in your camera.

Sean

[Janak Parekh]

This is a post from a while ago.
But it's hard to squeeze everything into that form factor. The simple fact is that 4" VGA displays, amongst other constraints, eat up much more power. Good luck trying to squeeze a bigger battery... maybe we'll be able to get such compromises when OLEDs come out.

--janak

[Zack Mahdavi]

I'm waiting for a VGA device with a screen the size of the iPaq 4150. I wouldn't mind a 3.5" VGA screen.. however, the reason why we're probably not seeing one probably is because:

1) There are some technological hurdles: it might be too hard to fix 640 x 480 pixels in a 3.5" screen.
2) The demand for VGA screens isn't enough for manufacturers to make two different types of VGA screens: I think this is quite possible.
3) Companies like HP just don't want to introduce a small-size PDA anymore: That would just be wrong... 8O

Either way, I'm going to have to wait for smaller devices. These devices, however, are technological marvels. They'll have beautiful screens, lots of memory, and fully connected. I think the Pocket PC will definitely have a bright future over the next couple of years.

[SeanH]

The simple fact is that 4" VGA displays, amongst other constraints, eat up much more power. Good luck trying to squeeze a bigger battery... maybe we'll be able to get such compromises when OLEDs come out.
90% of the power used in a LCD is to back light it. Here is a link for a 3.8” screen http://americas.kyocera.com/kicc/Lcd/notes/powerconsump.htm
A lot of new designs no longer use cold fluorescent light they use super bright low power white LED’s that consume 80% less power then CFL. There is very little difference in power between 4” and 3.8”

Sean

[Janak Parekh]

There is very little difference in power between 4” and 3.8”
There's also the VGA factor -- GPU has to work harder, more addressible pixels, etc. In any case, I'm not a display engineer, but I have read reports that, as of this moment, they have greater power requirements. I'd also assume this is going to change, but adoption of new technologies doesn't happen overnight.

--janak

[paris]

There's also the VGA factor -- GPU has to work harder

very true :) a VGA display has 4 times the pixels of a QVGA display, so it would need 4 times the processing power to address these(not processing power really but memory access) and 4 times the batter power to lid up all these pixels(not exacly again but you get the idea). No wonder why they added double the battery a 4150 has.

[jnunn]

This is a post from a while ago.
But it's hard to ...

--janak

"Hard" is a completely different word than "impossible." I am with Sean: I want a VGA screen minus the brick. This year the OEMs give VGA screens with bloated form factors and prices. In a year things should become more reasonable.

[Kevin Daly]

I don't know why it's still such a trickle (upcoming VGA devices).
Evidently my priorities are different from those of the market in general (which is probably true).

[Jonathon Watkins]

I hope that Toshiba aren't pulling out of the Pocket PC market and will be releasing info about the update to the e805 soon. So far only one out of the three known VGA devices is usable - ie. does not come with a camera. :| Not a good trend for those of us that want to take our PPCs with us to work.

[Janak Parekh]

"Hard" is a completely different word than "impossible." I am with Sean: I want a VGA screen minus the brick. This year the OEMs give VGA screens with bloated form factors and prices. In a year things should become more reasonable.
Absolutely -- my guess is you'll start to see that, along with OLED-enabled PDAs, in the next few years. Eventually, one of my many visions is looking for a VGA+Bluetooth watch that can communicate with my cell phone in my bag and my BT stereo headset. None of that is that far away. :)

--janak

[Jonathon Watkins]

Eventually, one of my many visions is looking for a VGA+Bluetooth watch that can communicate with my cell phone in my bag and my BT stereo headset. None of that is that far away. :)


VGA, on a WATCH? 8O Text and graphics would *seem* very far away. :wink:

I suppose it will come to pass. I would not like to read anything of any substance on that watch though. So what resolution would your PPC be? Or would you even have a PPC or 4 inch screen device at this point?

It just seems to me that 3.5 - 4 inches is the ideal 'sweet spot' in regards to size, ie small enough to carry, large enough to show a lot of information. Personally I would like a 4 inch VGA screen for my next upgrade. :D

[Janak Parekh]

VGA, on a WATCH? 8O Text and graphics would *seem* very far away. :wink:
Large print, my dear sir. Large print. Sharp as a tack. You'd be able to see video on it. Etc. Hey, I can dream, can't I? :mrgreen:

It just seems to me that 3.5 - 4 inches is the ideal 'sweet spot' in regards to size, ie small enough to carry, large enough to show a lot of information. Personally I would like a 4 inch VGA screen for my next upgrade. :D
Oh, absolutely. I'm not saying the watch is going to do everything. OK, I'll take 320x320 on my watch. Happy? :P

--janak

[sundown]

That list is nice but I wish they would have estimated price, too. Or perhaps if I have to ask I can't afford it?

[Duncan]

That list is nice but I wish they would have estimated price, too. Or perhaps if I have to ask I can't afford it?

Price is difficult - different sellers, different currencies, different parts of the world - in the end the prices of each will be what ever they turn out to be - and whatever the market will sustain...!

[Kati Compton]

I think it's reasonable to assume that they will be >= $499 US in the US.

[ultraman]

Is there anyone know that the Loox 720 will be available in US or Hong Kong?

[theoak]

All those PDA’s have nice features. I wish you could combine them to create the perfect PDA. This would be the perfect PDA in my option.

CPU – Intel PXA270 running at 624 MHz
Memory – 128MB of SDRAM, 128MB of ROM
Display – 3.7” or 4” VGA (480x640)
Size – The size of the 4150 or smaller (114 x 71 x 13.5 mm)
Expansion – 1 SDIO/MMC slot (no CF)
Communication – CIR, Bluetooth 1.2 and WiFi
OS – Pocket PC 2003 SE

Sean

Throw in a graphics accelerator and you've got my vote.

[Stephen Beesley]

Any one of these three little beauties would find a welcome home on my desk and in my pocket :D.

Apart from the widely expressed doubts on the touchpad of the HP offering this would have to be my favourite in terms of looks and features. but I think the Asus is probably got the combination of features and smaller size that a lot of people will be looking.

The only real issue for me is cost, which will probably keep me away from a vga device for the year or so it will take for prices to start to come down to a more affordable level.

[multpda]

Don't forget Dell, Dell is coming out with a sweet pocket pc as early as the end of this month and no later than by the time the year is out. It will have a 3.7" vga screen, intel 2700g graphics/multimedia accelerator, 128 Mb ram, 64 mb rom, dual expansion, and prob dual wireless. I hope it has BT 1.2 so that u can use stereo bluetooth headphones. This will be a sweet pocket pc that should debut at no more than 600 Canadian (400 US).

Cheers

[Stephen Beesley]

Don't forget Dell, Dell is coming out with a sweet pocket pc as early as the end of this month and no later than by the time the year is out. It will have a 3.7" vga screen, intel 2700g graphics/multimedia accelerator, 128 Mb ram, 64 mb rom, dual expansion, and prob dual wireless. I hope it has BT 1.2 so that u can use stereo bluetooth headphones. This will be a sweet pocket pc that should debut at no more than 600 Canadian (400 US).

Cheers

Sounds great - where did you get the specs/information about this?

[Duncan]

I hope it has BT 1.2 so that u can use stereo bluetooth headphones.

This is a common error currently. The version of BT that will have the improved bandwidth will be version 2.0 - though I hear that there may be an ammendment to version 1.2 that will go part way towards this.

The major enhancements with BT 1.2 (over 1.1) are less interference with WiFi and increased security.

[AZMark]

Does no one want to see a tiny square screen device with built in thumb keyboard?

I too have a few CF devices and always look for CF in a new unit, but alas the smaller it is the more you'll carry it with you and CF is a big factor. If Bluetooth, WiFi, and SD are all there then you might just see me give it up.

[Janak Parekh]

I hope it has BT 1.2 so that u can use stereo bluetooth headphones.
This is a common error currently. The version of BT that will have the improved bandwidth will be version 2.0 - though I hear that there may be an ammendment to version 1.2 that will go part way towards this.
Duncan, do you know of any handhelds being released with A2DP profile support? That would be a useable workaround.

--janak

[Duncan]

I hope it has BT 1.2 so that u can use stereo bluetooth headphones.
This is a common error currently. The version of BT that will have the improved bandwidth will be version 2.0 - though I hear that there may be an ammendment to version 1.2 that will go part way towards this.
Duncan, do you know of any handhelds being released with A2DP profile support? That would be a useable workaround.

--janak

None yet. PDA manufacturers seem to be ridiculously conservative...! :(

I can't see any reason why the profile could not be added later as a software update mind...

[SeanH]

This is a common error currently. The version of BT that will have the improved bandwidth will be version 2.0 - though I hear that there may be an ammendment to version 1.2 that will go part way towards this.
It’s not an issue of Bluetooth 1.1, 1.2, or 2.0 A2DP was supported in Bluetooth 1.1 Many vendors of USB dongles, PDA’s and phones did not support the profile. Let’s hope that PDA’s support more profiles in the future. I wish MS would hurry up and offer 100% support for Bluetooth. It would speed up its success.

Current Bluetooth bandwidth is not an issue with 44KHz 16bit compressed stereo audio. Bluetooth is 724Kb, a high end MP3 file is 192Kb, that leaves 532Kb. That is 73% bandwidth for other Bluetooth accessories. A common error is the myth that 720Kb is low bandwidth. A keyboard might use 1Kb, a GPS uses 9.6Kb, a modem uses 56Kb, Internet over a GPRS/EDGE phone is 200Kb, serial ports typically do not go over 115Kb, a mouse is 1Kb. If you need internet access faster then 720Kb 802.11 (WiFi) is the way to go.

Sean

[Janak Parekh]

This is a common error currently. The version of BT that will have the improved bandwidth will be version 2.0 - though I hear that there may be an ammendment to version 1.2 that will go part way towards this.
It’s not an issue of Bluetooth 1.1, 1.2, or 2.0 A2DP was supported in Bluetooth 1.1
Yes, but Bluetooth 2.0 has enough bandwidth for raw uncompressed PCM audio, which is a lot cooler. ;)

--janak

[Duncan]

This is a common error currently. The version of BT that will have the improved bandwidth will be version 2.0 - though I hear that there may be an ammendment to version 1.2 that will go part way towards this.
It’s not an issue of Bluetooth 1.1, 1.2, or 2.0 A2DP was supported in Bluetooth 1.1 Many vendors of USB dongles, PDA’s and phones did not support the profile. Let’s hope that PDA’s support more profiles in the future. I wish MS would hurry up and offer 100% support for Bluetooth. It would speed up its success.

Current Bluetooth bandwidth is not an issue with 44KHz 16bit compressed stereo audio. Bluetooth is 724Kb, a high end MP3 file is 192Kb, that leaves 532Kb. That is 73% bandwidth for other Bluetooth accessories. A common error is the myth that 720Kb is low bandwidth. A keyboard might use 1Kb, a GPS uses 9.6Kb, a modem uses 56Kb, Internet over a GPRS/EDGE phone is 200Kb, serial ports typically do not go over 115Kb, a mouse is 1Kb. If you need internet access faster then 720Kb 802.11 (WiFi) is the way to go.

Sean

Sean - you appear to have misunderstood my point. I was correcting a commonly held belief that BT 1.2 will have bandwidth than 1.1, when it is version 2.0 that will have the improved bandwidth, and be capable of transmitting *uncompressed* stereo sound.

A proposed ammendment of the 1.2 standard may mean greater bandwidth before version 2.0 is implemented. You are of course correct that A2DP is possible with BT 1.1 - but it does work better with 1.2 which is rather more robust.

Much as I am a strong supporter of BT, btw, I have to take some issue with your figures - which are strictly accurate but only tell part of the story. While 720Kb is more than enough for high quality MP3 transmission - in practice distance, interference and other limitations can make for problems in achieving sufficient signal strength/speed. 1.2 is supposed to improve on this to some degree - but the jury is still out. Either way - currently you need to compress at one end and decompress at the other - meaning bulky headphones with a battery, BT and codec chips built-in.

Real everyday stereo over BT will need to wait. As Janak points out - A2DP is only a workaround. (just in case Ed is looking in - at least the BT solution is here now - and BT 2.0 will be here long before the competition...! :wink: )

[ultraman]

Can anyone tell me what is A2DP profile and what it is used for?

Thanks!

[Duncan]

A2DP = Advanced Audio Distribution Profile. One of the 'additional profiles' (i.e. not part of the core Bluetooth specification). Designed to allow advanced (i.e. stereo, high bitrate) audio streaming over Bluetooth.

[beq]

Eventually, one of my many visions is looking for a VGA+Bluetooth watch that can communicate with my cell phone in my bag and my BT stereo headset. None of that is that far away. :)
That'd be cool too. But realistically I was hoping this would be the generation when I can finally get a (relatively) no-compromise PPC Phone Edition that I can pair up with the BlueSpoon Digital (BT earset) -- no need for the discrete handset piece. Of course the problem is that technology is always moving so by the time a new PPC PE model comes out, there are always pure PPC models with more features :roll:

Anyways thanks much for the overview Duncan. If you have time later, perhaps you could also do a roundup of the upcoming PPC Phone Editions? (Maybe even one with built-in EDGE/WCDMA or EVDO haha)

[Janak Parekh]

Of course the problem is that technology is always moving so by the time a new PPC PE model comes out, there are always pure PPC models with more features :roll:
Yes - this is a problem with Pocket PC Phones - the price of convergence, at least as of this moment. If the future is all connected devices, maybe it'll ultimately resolve itself.

--janak

[Duncan]

The FCC have now approved the Asus a730 (and by extension the Loox v70 - not to be confused with the Loox 720...!). We've posted some of the test pics, along with links to the manual and the the rest of the test pictures, here (http://firstloox.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1587).

[beq]

P.S. I must say, being an uncultured American (haha :)), I'm only used to measurements in inches and pounds. So I always have to convert the mm and g before I can get a sense of the size/weight. Would be awesome to add the US units to the FirstLoox chart? :mrgreen:

[Duncan]

You just need to divide each measurement by 25.4 to get the inches.

Funny how we all seem to use different mixes of imperial and metric...

[beq]

I see, it's just I'd have to do the mathematics each time I consult the chart. I can see the relative numbers so I know for example 117mm is shorter than 122mm. But in inches I can immediately "grasp" the overall size in my mind. To a lesser extent same goes for pound vs. gram.

For example I know if I extend my thumb and pinkie just so, that's 6 inches in between...

P.S. Funny BTW, I have the size of the very first iPAQ (in inches) ingrained in my mind, which I habitually use to compare all new PDAs against to gauge the relative size...

[Janak Parekh]

P.S. I must say, being an uncultured American (haha :)), I'm only used to measurements in inches and pounds. So I always have to convert the mm and g before I can get a sense of the size/weight. Would be awesome to add the US units to the FirstLoox chart? :mrgreen:
Use Google. :mrgreen: Type in "5 in in mm" and it'll do the conversion for you -- automatically. Works for almost every conversion possible.

--janak

[Jonathon Watkins]

P.S. I must say, being an uncultured American (haha :)), I'm only used to measurements in inches and pounds. So I always have to convert the mm and g before I can get a sense of the size/weight. Would be awesome to add the US units to the FirstLoox chart? :mrgreen:
Use Google. :mrgreen: Type in "5 in in mm" and it'll do the conversion for you -- automatically. Works for almost every conversion possible.

8O Is there nothing they *don't* do? :lol:

I think in miles for longer distances and cm and meters for shorter distances, having grown up in Holland and learning to drive in the UK. Talk about mixed up.

As long as the comparison charts for PPCs use consistent units I'm happy, although both inches and cm would be nice. :wink:

[Duncan]

Oh - go on then. I'll add inches to the table.

[Jonathon Watkins]

Oh - go on then. I'll add inches to the table.
You star. :beer:

I look forward to seeing more VGA devices added to that list. Hopefully the successor to the Toshiba e805. They currently seem to be the only manufacture actually supporting their devices with upgrades. :?

They leaned their lesson anyway. Lets hope they continue to be supportive.

Ellllo Tosh - got a Toshiba? (Very old UK advert for Toshiba). :wink:

[Duncan]

Right - it's done. Inch and ounce conversions are now included.

[beq]

Thanks Duncan :)

Use Google. :mrgreen: Type in "5 in in mm" and it'll do the conversion for you -- automatically. Works for almost every conversion possible.Hehe good call Mr. Janak...

[Duncan]

Note - the FCC have now passed the Loox 720 - and we've posted all the gen here (http://www.firstloox.org). :)

[ultraman]

Nice to here more PPCs will come this summer. If the Loox 720 gained approval from FCC. Does it mean it can be bought in US?
:?:

[Duncan]

Nice to here more PPCs will come this summer. If the Loox 720 gained approval from FCC. Does it mean it can be bought in US?
:?:

Not necessarily. Any device with a radio that might be used in the US goes for FCC approval as a matter of course. Other agencies in other countries also need to approve devices BUT the FCC are so very open with their documentation...! :wink:

[scmok]

Do any of the VGA resolution devices include a VGA display output port ?

If they have one, the size of the LCD screen is less of an issue. Better yet, If they have monitor resolution of 1024x768 and scale it down to 640x480 for the LCD screen. Then I can just carry this around, put a BT keyboard in my office for serious applications or go for presentation without carrying a separate notebook just to view Powerpoint files.

[Janak Parekh]

Do any of the VGA resolution devices include a VGA display output port ?
Not built-in, but the e805 has a presenter pack that's a little adapter that fits on the bottom and enables VGA out. Presumably, one could use a CF card with the others as well.

Better yet, If they have monitor resolution of 1024x768 and scale it down to 640x480 for the LCD screen.
I don't think any of them do, but I'd love to be wrong.

--janak

[Duncan]

Now that the official HP datasheet for the hx4700 is available - http://h18000.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/North_America/10017.html - I've updated the comparison table.

Sadly it seems that the larger of the length/depth measurements are the accurate ones and that it won't have USB host capabilities.

(though there are some neat aspects to the hx4700 - follow the link and check out the BT profiles...!)

[ultraman]

I have just read the 4700 spec. It does has USB2.0 client. Great. I think it will be fast for ActiveSync but I doubt that will the file transfer in ActiveSync will be fast.

Also, I noticed that it does include a Flip Cover.

By following the link, there is also the spec for the first PPC Phone 6300 from HP.

Great news!

[Duncan]

I've updated the VGA comparison to include the Asus a730 BT only version. Can't think why anyone would want single wireless but people have been asking for it to be added anyway...!

[ultraman]

I've updated the VGA comparison to include the Asus a730 BT only version. Can't think why anyone would want single wireless but people have been asking for it to be added anyway...!

Provided there price is cheap, the BT-only version will target for the budgeted users