Dell, HP Not Offering SE Upgrades?

[Janak Parekh]

This report is not via an official press release, but it sounds pretty definitive: Chris, from Aximsite and Ipaq HQ, is reporting that both have decided <i>not</i> to offer WM2003SE upgrades for their existing units.<br /><li> Aximsite <a href="http://aximsite.com/boards/showthread.php?s=&threadid=44078">reports:</a> <i>"Dell has looked at the issue closely and they are going to stand by their original announcement where they stated that Windows Mobile 2003 Second Edition will not be offered on models prior to the X30."</i><br /><li> Ipaq HQ <a href="http://www.ipaqhq.com/forums/showthread.php?p=31859#post31859">quotes:</a> <i>"HP is pleased to announce that it will support MS Windows Mobile 2003 SE on new products. After extensive assessments of MS Windows Mobile 2003 SE support on current products, HP has decided not to offer this upgrade on existing product platforms. However, HP will provide users with a more secure experience through the use of WiFi Protected Access Support (WPA) on selected models."</i> I'll try and see if I can get any more definitive answers, but things aren't looking good. :( The silver lining is that SE is less critical for these devices, as third-party rotation solutions and the like exist. Me, I'm still waiting for WM2003 First Edition for my Samsung i700. :| It's also worth pointing out that only Toshiba ever <i>promised</i> an upgrade, although people still had expectations of getting one and it would have been nice of the OEMs to state their policy immediately upon the release of WM2003SE.

[paulv]

I don't see why HP would change their tune - after all my poor old Jornada got shafted by HP when they decided that WM 2003 couldn't fit on it.

How else will they sell new PDA's :wink:

[Howard2k]

I don't think it's that big of a deal to be honest....

[billbuckner]

CRAP! I really want the new PIE on my X3i...

[arnage2]

thats bull . hp 5555 users dont even get wm2003se?

[Ryan Joseph]

This is a little disturbing. Why would a company refuse an upgrade? Can it be that dificult to release one? :?

Slightly off-topic: Does anyone know anything about an SE upgrade for the i-mate? Or even XDA II?

[alex_kac]

I personally think its because HP and Dell expect you to upgrade to a new device for the update.

SE is nice on non-VGA machines because it now supports WPA, has landscape support (which is just nice for things like PIE and other reading), has the new one column mode in PIE (which I think is really important for XDA/XDA II owners).

To me its not the issue that SE isn't that big of an upgrade - its that its a precedent. That's bad. They really do want to make sure that when WM2004 comes out that you'll be so used to just buying new devices.

[carphead]

From what I've seen on a non-vga screen SE offers little.

Not to fussed about it not being offered for my 22xx. Proably was to much hassle for hp to provide the update ;)

[Kash76]

Not to fussed about it not being offered for my 22xx. Proably was to much hassle for hp to provide the update ;)

I would love landscape mode for browsing. I'm done with HP. At least Dell didn't renege on their offering of SE.

[stevew]

Well if you want SE now it's gonna cost $300-$600. This isn't good IMO. If you ask me it's nothing more than HP wanting everyone to buy the new units. I probably would of kept my 2215 another year with an SE upgrade. But even tho I'm a little pissed now I'll probably fall for there strategy and buy a new unit. :roll:

[Vidge]

I was looking forward to landscape support for my hp4155, which I have on my T3 and had on the X30 I owned ever so briefly. I'm disappointed this is not coming.

[Ed Hansberry]

It is not much more than landscape really. Honestly, I am totally indifferent on this announcement. Part of me is glad I don't have to fool with a hard reset and resetting everything up.

[Zack Mahdavi]

I'm kind of disappointed I won't be seeing WM 2003 SE for my 4155, but it's not really something we can get mad about. These companies are really doing people a favor by introducing upgrades for older products, and it's definitely not something that should be expected of them.

That being said, I'm really going to miss the lack of landscape support... :?

[Kacey Green]

I must say this is pure BS, what was the point of making us pay for flash rom when they could have used much cheaper rom chips and still put the patches in ram as they have done currently grr. Rex needs updates, Hopefully that VGA iPAQ doesn't cost too much grr... :evil:

[KimVette]

This underscores what I've been saying for several years on PocketPCPassion: Never, ever buy a PocketPC based on promises of upgradability. Buy based only on whether or not the PocketPC will best meet your current needs.

With that said, Carly Fiorina can go to *bleep*.

[that_kid]

The only thing I was looking forward to was wpa support and Hp has already added that to my 5555 so I'm happy. The two things that even made SE appealing were wpa and landscape support and for me wpa was the biggest reason to upgrade.

[Duncan]

they could have used much cheaper rom chips and still put the patches in ram as they have done currently

Whatever *did* happen to XIP updates?

[webagogue]

I'd like to give a big middle finger to HP. I purchased a $400 piece of hardware from you (4155) and now you are telling me you will not even SELL me an upgrade.

I wanted the upgrade for three reasons - 1.change screen fonts, 2.rotation (third-party solutions that require soft-resets just suck), 3.new pocket IE.

Guess I'll be looking to hack my ROM this summer. Or maybe I'll just wait for Lycoris (http://http://www.lycoris.com/products/pocketpc/). Linux, anyone?

I love the 4155 from a hardware perspective, but HP is really ticking me off.

[thendless]

Question though: Wasn't there a early release of WM2003SE beta on the 2210 at CeBit or whatever that event was that happened a few months ago? I remember they allowed some people to flash their roms but had to sign a waiver.

[marovada]

This is what happens when an operating system upgrade is left to OEMs. If this was the case with an ordinary computer, we'd all have to upgrade to a new computer to get a new Windows operating system. No one would stand for that. Welcome Linux.

All OEMs are interested in is selling new devices. They're not operating system vendors. Given the similarity in specs for PPCs I wonder why Microsoft doesn't just offer an operating system upgrade? The OEMs don't seem to add much to the base operating system. This works for ordinary computers.

The OEMs are just greedy and pursue only their own interests. Why leave it to their discretion as to whether an OS upgrade is made available? Doesn't MS want to a market in which to sell its OS?

I should add that I live in Australia and was not offered an upgrade to WM 2003 (first ed) on my Axim X5 just because of where I live (talk about discrimination!! No I don't have a kangaroo in my backyard and I am literate). Dell deemed it to be a waste of their precious resources to offer me an upgrade and the reason I bought the Axim was (not for its looks!!) for the 64mb ROM at a cheap price ie. cheap upgrade potential. I'll never buy a Dell again because frankly I'm cheesed off. I won't make the upgrade decision mistake again but Dell can get bent.

[pepemosca]

Awful day today :(

[Take1]

I can understand why HP wouldn't want to release an update for the 41xx series as it's likely to cannabalize sales from the new, rather lackluster, QVGA models -- especially when they reduce the price in a couple of months.

I don't think HP has fooled itself into thinking that their new devices are as attractive as the 19xx and 4xxx series devices. They are simply hoping more RAM and Windows Mobile SE will sell the new units in spite of the other qualities these units possess.

For me it's not a really big deal my 4150 won't get the upgrade since I don't really need landscape anyway. What is a big deal is that they aren't supporting an upgrade on a product that's not even a year old. I doesn't make Dell or Hp look good on a customer relations/product support standpoint -- it will make me think about buying from either of them in the future -- especially if I know a new OS verison is just around the corner.

[nosmohtac]

I can understand it too, but it's very disappointing to see the tables turned.

Over the last several years, many people have left the Toshiba camp and switched to HP, because Toshiba didn't offer upgrades for most of their models. Now, Toshiba seems to be the only one offering the upgrade. I would have no problem switching from HP to Toshiba. The e805 is an awesome device. I traded mine for a 5550, only because of the accessories I already had for the iPAQ. But now that HP is no longer making the "sleevable" iPAQs, I would have no problem jumping ship

I'm quite upset about this for the same reason many were upset about Toshiba not offering the upgrade for the e740. They market the device in such a way that you believe you will be able to upgrade, then they leave you hanging. It would be very understandable if certain HP PPCs didn't have large enough ROM chips, but otherwise there is no good reason not to offer an upgrade.
As someone previously mentioned, if we were talking about desktop PCs, noone would stand for any PC manufacturer making your home computer unable to be upgraded to MS's latest OS, even though it met or exceeded the minimum requirements for the new OS.

[ctmagnus]

:bad-words:

Compaq/HP used to be so beautiful. The 3xxx/5xxx line, the 19xx's, the 2210 and the 4xxx's were all gorgeous. Now they release a bunch of glorified soapdishes which, rather than innovate, are actually a step backwards in most cases. And now there's the rumour that current devices (apparently the last physically-attractive devices from them) will not even be upgradeable to the very soon-to-be-current OS.

:mecry:

I hope that they will have stellar support in the future, as imo that's all they have left now.

[mrkablooey]

But even tho I'm a little pissed now I'll probably fall for there strategy and buy a new unit. :roll:

Me, too. A Dell. :wink:

Just like I didn't buy Battery Pack Pro from OmegaOne, though HP never said they'd have unlimited free upgrades. :wink:

[buckyg]

I'm disappointed, yes. Upset?, not so far. (That may change after I've had more time to think about it.) I never saw anything official from HP promising an upgrade for my 5555. (To me, the implication was there, though) But it would have been nice.

I thought I'd read on another forum that they were running into difficulties with the upgrades. Seems like I've also read several Toshiba e800 users who were less than impressed with the upgrade, too. If that's all true, maybe we're better off being upset a little now with "nothing" as opposed to finding out the upgrade's not all it's cracked up to be and being angry about that. (Hey, I'm trying to be positive somehow)

That all being said, thanks for the WPA, HP. As an even nicer consolation prize, could you wrap up all the wifi updates and the new MS-Reader into a ROM update? (Or even better, an XIP so we don't have to hard-reset?) It would be nice to move all of that from RAM to ROM, save some space, make a hard-reset easier, etc.

[mrkablooey]

It is not much more than landscape really. Honestly, I am totally indifferent on this announcement. Part of me is glad I don't have to fool with a hard reset and resetting everything up.

oh come on, where's your sense of adventure?

i love that fresh, just washed behind the ears feeling of a freshly loaded ipaq. :lol:

[Kevin Jackson]

Never, ever buy a PocketPC based on promises of upgradability. Buy based only on whether or not the PocketPC will best meet your current needs.

When I purchased my e755 a year ago, this was the set of criteria that I used -- I looked at what was on the market, read the reviews/rants/raves, decided what features I had to have (wifi, dual memory slots, etc) and decided on the e755, despite all of the negative feedback regarding Toshiba's lack of upgrades. I honestly did not expect Toshiba to supply any sort of upgrade this go around (time will tell if they actually do so despite their promises) so either way I will not be disappointed. What is disappointing is when manufacturers with a good track record start thinking only of the bottom line rather than their customer base.

Personally, I'm waiting for the new VGA devices before I upgrade and I will make my next decision based on the features that I want and what will best fit my needs and expect nothing in the way of upgrades regardless of the company.

[The Spectre]

Well, I was one of those Toshiba guys with the e330 and e740 who got hosed and now HP is doing the same. Well I don't like being bullied into buing new equipment every 6 months because the OEM refuses to release a lousy patch that I would have gladly paid for anyway and maybe should be free anyway. So I tell ya what i'm gonna do, Ebay here comes one 4155 and so long PocketPC and so long PDAs in general. My a600 does most of what I need and I will just upgrade to the latest greatest phone in a few months that will do 90% of what my PDA does and get it for half of what a new PDA would cost and between that my mp3 player, and my laptop I am good. So greed is what is going to kill the PDA market and the OEMs are doing a great job of handing over the market to the likes of Nokia, Samsung and others..


See Ya..

[Chris Spera]

Ya know, I remember the day that this was orignally announced. HP said it would support a WM2003SE upgrade for the 2200, 4100 and (I think) the 4300 (could be wrong on that last one...)

I ditched my 5455 on eBay because the 5000 series was left out and bought a 2200. I bought it specifically because HP said they would provide an upgrade for the 2200...

I love it when I'm lied to... If this is in fact the case, this is another OEM that won't get my money next time around...

[Janak Parekh]

Whatever *did* happen to XIP updates?
They ended with PPC2k2. WM2003 supports PDA architectures that don't necessarily support XIP, so it's up to the OEMs to release full ROM flashes for updates instead of Microsoft distributing XIPs. A number of MVPs have pointed out to MS that XIPs were a really good thing and consumers really appreciated it.

Question though: Wasn't there a early release of WM2003SE beta on the 2210 at CeBit or whatever that event was that happened a few months ago? I remember they allowed some people to flash their roms but had to sign a waiver.
I don't know personally, but I wouldn't be surprised if HP built betas for many of their devices to make an evaluation. However, customizing SE for the device is only a part of the cost. Testing, patching, deploying, and support are substantial costs, and if this situation is true, it means that HP decided after whatever metrics they used that it wasn't worth it to formally offer an upgrade.

This underscores what I've been saying for several years on PocketPCPassion: Never, ever buy a PocketPC based on promises of upgradability. Buy based only on whether or not the PocketPC will best meet your current needs.
I think consumers are adapting to that, now. However, HP was the one who (with the iPAQ) pioneered the concept of upgradeability with both flash ROMs and sleeves. I still have my 2002-upgraded 3650 in the closet.

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

Well, I was one of those Toshiba guys with the e330 and e740 who got hosed and now HP is doing the same. Well I don't like being bullied into buing new equipment every 6 months because the OEM refuses to release a lousy patch that I would have gladly paid for anyway and maybe should be free anyway. So I tell ya what i'm gonna do, Ebay here comes one 4155 and so long PocketPC and so long PDAs in general. My a600 does most of what I need and I will just upgrade to the latest greatest phone in a few months that will do 90% of what my PDA does and get it for half of what a new PDA would cost and between that my mp3 player, and my laptop I am good.
Of course, no phone on the market will offer OS upgrades - I think the legacy of upgradeability in consumer devices is going out the window.

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

All OEMs are interested in is selling new devices. They're not operating system vendors. Given the similarity in specs for PPCs I wonder why Microsoft doesn't just offer an operating system upgrade? The OEMs don't seem to add much to the base operating system. This works for ordinary computers.
The PC market and the PDA market are vastly different. The PC market has a pair of vendors (Intel and Microsoft) essentially dictating standards. The PDA market has no such dominance by vendors. I'm sure Microsoft would be happy if even PalmOne devices were CE-upgradeable, but we're a long way from having the same kind of hardware abstraction. Moreover, hardware abstraction requires more processing power, which is easy to furnish on desktops but not quite so on PDAs.

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

Ya know, I remember the day that this was orignally announced. HP said it would support a WM2003SE upgrade for the 2200, 4100 and (I think) the 4300 (could be wrong on that last one...)
So, I can't remember if this was official or not. If you find some official documentation, let us know -- I'd be happy to post on it.

I love it when I'm lied to... If this is in fact the case, this is another OEM that won't get my money next time around...
So, who's out there that's gonna offer upgrades? ;)

--janak

[OneAngryDwarf]

This actually really upsets me... whether or not its a big upgrade is irrelavent... If it can be done it should be done even if you charge for the upgrade... Everytime there is a new version of Windows (full thing) you don't have to go out and buy a new computer at least not for most upgrades (if your computer is really old well thats an exception)... This should be the case with Pocket PC's which are becoming more like fully fledged computers with every passing day... Hey believe me I'd love to buy a new unit every time a new OS comes out but I don't have that type of funding... boo HP and Dell for not doing what they should be expected to do... I still love my 2215

[baker]

Before I purchased my 4155, I called HP and asked the rep specifically about SE . I was told over the phone it would be available for the 4155.

[gorkon280]

I must say this is pure BS, what was the point of making us pay for flash rom when they could have used much cheaper rom chips and still put the patches in ram as they have done currently grr. Rex needs updates, Hopefully that VGA iPAQ doesn't cost too much grr... :evil:

I was going to say the same thing. What's the flipping use of using a flashrom if your never going to flash it or upgrade it?

[nosmohtac]

I must say this is pure BS, what was the point of making us pay for flash rom when they could have used much cheaper rom chips and still put the patches in ram as they have done currently grr. Rex needs updates, Hopefully that VGA iPAQ doesn't cost too much grr... :evil:

I was going to say the same thing. What's the flipping use of using a flashrom if your never going to flash it or upgrade it?

So when you've had enough of their "Big Business crap on the consumer" crap, you can Flash the ROM with Linux :devilboy:

[gorkon280]

I can understand it too, but it's very disappointing to see the tables turned.

Over the last several years, many people have left the Toshiba camp and switched to HP, because Toshiba didn't offer upgrades for most of their models. Now, Toshiba seems to be the only one offering the upgrade. I would have no problem switching from HP to Toshiba. The e805 is an awesome device. I traded mine for a 5550, only because of the accessories I already had for the iPAQ. But now that HP is no longer making the "sleevable" iPAQs, I would have no problem jumping ship

I'm quite upset about this for the same reason many were upset about Toshiba not offering the upgrade for the e740. They market the device in such a way that you believe you will be able to upgrade, then they leave you hanging. It would be very understandable if certain HP PPCs didn't have large enough ROM chips, but otherwise there is no good reason not to offer an upgrade.
As someone previously mentioned, if we were talking about desktop PCs, noone would stand for any PC manufacturer making your home computer unable to be upgraded to MS's latest OS, even though it met or exceeded the minimum requirements for the new OS.

Toshiba has not released this upgrade in the US at all yet. Also, try and find a e805 for sale locally.....CompUSA does not have them any more and Toshiba has all but pulled out of the US market.

[jt3]

Personally, this just doesn't surprise me with HP. Don't get me wrong... I understand that they could just as easily change their minds and offer upgrades after feeling a backlash from angry consumers... but honestly, I never thought HP supported their PDAs as well as Compaq did.

I'm with others in this thread that it's not so much missing out on WM2003Se that's got me upset, it's the precedent. Compaq would offer upgrades, pretty much until they wouldn't fit in the hardware. HP and Dell are now saying you get what you get in the box, and anything else we happen to throw your way, well, you should feel lucky to get it, but forget about major upgrades.

I was seriously considering a new VGA device, but if this is how things are going... where we're expected to buy a whole new PDA every year or so... well... let's just say that HP may not be seeing any money from this PDA user in the near future. I'll probably just wait until WM2004, since I'm sure none of this upcoming line will be upgradeable to THAT operating system either.

[iPAQ_ace]

Ya know, I remember the day that this was orignally announced. HP said it would support a WM2003SE upgrade for the 2200, 4100 and (I think) the 4300 (could be wrong on that last one...)

:bad-words:

Two words sum it up for me: Not happy!

I'm disapointed that HP would change its stance in this matter. When I had posted on my site (http://www.ipaqabilities.com) that HP would release an upgrade for current models, this came from a very well placed source at HP (someone better placed than in PR)...

[grumbles] ...I'm going to have to call up this source to verify this since at last word I was told that the upgrade would come out in Sept/Oct.

[The Spectre]

Good riddens to Toshiba. Here is the part that the GREEDY OEMs fail to grasp. When Toshiba screwd me on my e330/e740 I got so pissed I sold not only my Toshiba PDA and refuse to buy another I also sold my Satallite Laptop and when looking for a DVD player and RPTV bought Pioneers even though I had an eye on Toshiba. I have also steered as many people as I can away from Toshiba and now HP is seems to be taking a page from the Toshiba customer service manual. Well, I guess I will have to do what I have to and vote with my dollars.

This attitude OEMs have to force me to buy new hardware is NOT OK and should not be tolerated by consumers. I don't care if the damn upgrade adds no feature it should be MY CHOICE to upgrade or not not to upgrade and not HP's. POCKETPCs have ROM WTF for if all they want to do is sell new hardware at $500.00 a pop. Laptops are much more functional and not much more expensive and phones are much less expensive and almost as functional. Mark my words GREED has killed the PDA market nohing more nothing less. I wish Microsoft would step up and pull thier OS and sell it just like they do windows and let us buy what ever harware suits us not the OEMs. All they have done is drag ass for 2 years while phone providers have advanced by leaps and bounds and laptop prices have been halved.

SCREW ME NO SCREW YOU HP....

[marovada]

All OEMs are interested in is selling new devices. They're not operating system vendors. Given the similarity in specs for PPCs I wonder why Microsoft doesn't just offer an operating system upgrade? The OEMs don't seem to add much to the base operating system. This works for ordinary computers.
The PC market and the PDA market are vastly different. The PC market has a pair of vendors (Intel and Microsoft) essentially dictating standards. The PDA market has no such dominance by vendors. I'm sure Microsoft would be happy if even PalmOne devices were CE-upgradeable, but we're a long way from having the same kind of hardware abstraction. Moreover, hardware abstraction requires more processing power, which is easy to furnish on desktops but not quite so on PDAs.

--janak

I still don't understand what the OEM's add to the base operating system and why MS doesn't sell OS upgrades to PPC owners. Perhaps someone can tell me if the OEM somehow makes the OS compatible with the hardware in their device - I can't see it myself, especially given that maintream PPCs all have ARM or XSCALE processors.

[Janak Parekh]

I still don't understand what the OEM's add to the base operating system and why MS doesn't sell OS upgrades to PPC owners.
Well, the OEMs do customize the ROM heavily. Apart from that, there are reasons I'm not allowed to discuss. :(

Perhaps someone can tell me if the OEM somehow makes the OS compatible with the hardware in their device - I can't see it myself, especially given that maintream PPCs all have ARM or XSCALE processors.
Yes - they do. There's a lot more hardware than just the microprocessor, and they do differ between devices.

--janak

[juni]

Ok, time to jump ship again then. The only power we have as consumers is to vote with our wallets and take our business elsewhere.

I had planned on getting a VGA device when they came out (and with 99.9% certainty a HP), but this settles it - it won't be a Dell or a HP. I guess I'll have to have a look around and see what else is out there. Maybe some new wonderful Linux devices have come out?

[Janak Parekh]

Maybe some new wonderful Linux devices have come out?
And what guarantee do you have that's upgradable? ;) Unless you hack your own ROMs...

--janak

[juni]

And what guarantee do you have that's upgradable? Wink Unless you hack your own ROMs...

None whatsoever, but it is fun to try new things :D

[ppcsurfr]

I still don't understand what the OEM's add to the base operating system and why MS doesn't sell OS upgrades to PPC owners.
Well, the OEMs do customize the ROM heavily. Apart from that, there are reasons I'm not allowed to discuss. :(

Perhaps someone can tell me if the OEM somehow makes the OS compatible with the hardware in their device - I can't see it myself, especially given that maintream PPCs all have ARM or XSCALE processors.
Yes - they do. There's a lot more hardware than just the microprocessor, and they do differ between devices.

--janak

I think it's safe to say this... the only thing common between a lot of PPCs is the name of the processor... the complete hardware is totally different from model to model... this is another reason for that...

Carlo

[tonywms]

I am actually kinda of upset, but not that upset.

Thankfully whwn I purchased my iPaq 5555 from CompUSA, I brought the extended warrenty.

[jgrnt1]

I don't think it's the cost of developing, deploying and supporting the upgrade that is driving this decision. I think it's the potential lost sales of new devices. We have to remember we are not average consumers. Most of us by the latest and greatest simply so we can play with it. For the average person, there is no compelling reason to upgrade to the new devices. There would be even less of a reason, if the current devices are upgraded to SE.

A few years ago, the same fear was being heard from PC manufacturers. They were afraid that technology was proceeding at a faster pace than the need for it. They needed something to make upgrading necessary. They found that games were the killer app that would get people to buy newer, faster boxes. Games have now been joined by multimedia as the driving force behind consumers upgrading PC's. If people only wanted to check email, surf the 'net and type letters, they would not need 3 GHz processors, 1GB of RAM, 200 GB hard drives and 256 MB video cards.

Unfortunately for PPC manufacturers, I don't think any such killer app exists for the PPC. There isn't anything that would get the average consumers' attention. I think HP and Dell are sadly mistaken if they think SE will get many people to by a new unit. More ROM and RAM would be great for geeks, but the average consumer doesn't need it (though PPC manufacturers will try and convince them they do need it). The average consumer is not going to try and cram 40 programs onto their PPC, throwing delays into their launcher program so the icons of the programs loaded on the SD card don't get hosed by slow SD initialization. VGA might be compelling to some, but not at $650 -- though I may get one, just to play with it. :wink:

[webagogue]

And what guarantee do you have that's upgradable? ;) Unless you hack your own ROMs...

--janak

...or unless you download for free or buy one of several Linux distros available on the Internet. When Lycoris releases their Linux OS for PPC hardware, (http://www.lycoris.com/products/pocketpc/) you can be sure that I'll be trying it out.

It isn't so much that I think a Linux OS would be superior to WinCE, but I could customize as I please and not have to wonder if/when a vendor is going to do me a favor by selling me an upgrade.

A Linux solution may not be perfect, but there are a ton of people out there who can and will help you upgrade or change your device.

I'm no Linux zealot. I have been a Windows guy since 3.1 and just finished an upgrade to WinXP SP2. I have only dabbled with Linux - mostly with a Knoppix distro. But I am becoming more sensitive to freedom - something that Linux will provide for me. Heck, I'm even hacking an XBox this weekend.

How many WinCE ROM hacking groups are out there??? Anyone? Anyone?

[mscdex]

I agree with a lot of the people here. I'm pretty upset because the last PPC I had before my 2215 was a 3635, and ever sine I got rid of it, I thought I'd never get another PPC because of upgrade issues and never being able to keep up with the ever-evolving PPCs out there.

But recently I purchased a 2215 setup, with accessories, etc. because it was one of the best iPaqs out there for the price, and because I read all the good things about it and how HP said it would be upgradable to SE when it was made available to us end-users for upgrade.

I really hope this recent information isn't true, because I don't want to be stuck with another "old" PPC. I kinda figured that since HP has always allowed one upgrade for their devices (PPC->PPC2k2, etc.), that they would allow WM2k3 devices to upgrade to at least the Second Edition. Let's hope they change their minds, for their customers' sakes.

[jeffrey_ms]

:evil: Time to ditch HP and move on to other brand model! :devilboy:
regret i bought the 2210. Was hoping that they will provide the free upgrade to WM2003SE. HP was my favourite PPC ever since i bought 3630, 3970 and 2210. 0X High time to move on. 8)

[tap0utt]

i am also quite disappointed... if this is true. i would have purchased a new hp with a vga screen, but this is not thrilling news for the company.

so, i really like the looks of asus mypal. i think im going to ebay my 4155 for the new line in the fall.

asus does have a much better appearance and form factor than the new soap dishes.

[jgoodman]

It's also worth pointing out that only Toshiba ever promised an upgrade, although people still had expectations of getting one and it would have been nice of the OEMs to state their policy immediately upon the release of WM2003SE.

Asus promised an upgrade for thier A716 PDA.
According to this post, they are still planning on delivering, although its a little late.....

http://www.pocketmatrix.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17097&sid=3f5035c716eacf4cd228b045ed0152fa

[webagogue]

I'm sure Microsoft would be happy if even PalmOne devices were CE-upgradeable, but we're a long way from having the same kind of hardware abstraction. Moreover, hardware abstraction requires more processing power, which is easy to furnish on desktops but not quite so on PDAs.

--janak

I'm sure Microsoft could cause HP to reconsider this decision with just the slightest effort.

HP was upgrading iPAQs at a recent trade show. Save a few bugs, the software works on the latest round of iPAQs.

Microsoft should take note that just this type of attempted device lock-in is causing me to look for alternatives. HP, to be sure, if this rumor is true, has one less customer, but so might Microsoft. :evil:

[gohtor]

doesn't surprise me.

I broke my ipaq 1940 and went onto a Dell axim x30. Too bad there's no standard way of flashing the OS's ourselves. the ipaq 3800 had plenty of non ms roms to load onto. I would bet my money on Dell to provide OS updates than HP on their ppcs. But since they're both apparently not doing it I suppose we should shift our attention to asus? =)

[WillyG]

:bad-words:
Here is something to think of for HP/Dell and others who try to pull this trick on their customers:

Here is how i will/would have reacted if HP keep their word about SE upgradability:
Current device: 8 months old iPAQ 4150
+If SE upgrade comes out before the new models: Download or buy, and install just to get familiar with it. (*ching* $30 to HP)
+When new models come out: Sell 4150 and buy one of the new models. Preferably with VGA if the price is right. (*ching* $550 to HP)
+When WM2004/5 comes out: Buy upgrade (*ching* $30 to HP)
+Buy new model preloaded with WM2004/5 (*ching* $550 to HP)
+Recomend HP to friends and family, continue to recomend and buy HP PDAs for the company i work in (*ching* Priceless)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SUM MEDIO 2005= *ching*ching*ching* minimum $1160 + word of mounth free goodwill and marketing
=================================================


Here is how i will react if HP lie to me and dont keep their word about SE upgradabilyty:
Current device: 8 months old iPAQ 4150
+SE upgrade cd/download not availiable (*thomp* $0 to HP + disapointed customer)
+New devices comes out: Will not buy because i have learned that they will not provide an upgrade/update when WM2004/5 comes out. I consider the new OS much more important than SE. I will most likely keep my 4150 untill the next generation devices with WM2004/5 preloaded comes out. (*thomp* $0 to HP)
+WM2004/5 comes out. Like earlier HP does not provide an upgrade (*thomp* $0 to HP)
+Finally the new devices with WM2004/5 comes out with the brand new OS in rom (*ching* $550 to HP)
+Lost goodwill. Be critical about HP, recomend other brands. Think twice before i recomend or by ho to employees in the company i work (*thomp* Priceless)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SUM MEDIO 2005= *ching* $550 - word of mounth, lost goodwill and free marketing
=================================================

Go ahead HP/Dell, its your choice. SE might sound small and insignificant,. But at least listen to us. Im sure you get the picture by reading the comments here and in other forums.
If you chose the second alternative (not provide the upgrade) and medio 2005 in astonishment find that the bottom line have shrinked.
Dont come tell me the PDA-market have colapsed and that there is no interest in PDAs anymore.

Dont let SE be the Sure End, to our passion.

:bad-words:

[Stephen Beesley]

Well, I guess like pretty much everyone else I am disappointed but not overly suprised by this turn of events.

For me I have already decided to finally jump ship from my ol' Jornada (ebay auction due to end any minute now.... :D ) and move on. But, not to a fancy new vga WM2003 SE device (as much as I would have liked to) instead I am going to pick up a Toshiba e755, which for me will be a nice upgrade from the Jornada and keep my options open until the price and availability of vga devices improves. While I would have loved Toshiba to offer a SE upgrade for the e755 it will not suprise me if they do not (there is certainly no official wor that I have seen that they were ever planning such an offer). I think the real lesson here is that picking a device for what it "might" offer in the future is a losing game - better to get one that fills your needs now and let the future take care of itself.

Of course that is hard to do when the techno lust takes hold.... :mrgreen:

[ADBrown]

I still don't understand what the OEM's add to the base operating system and why MS doesn't sell OS upgrades to PPC owners.
Well, the OEMs do customize the ROM heavily. Apart from that, there are reasons I'm not allowed to discuss. :(


I just had a bad creepy thought--suppose MS had a deal with the OEMs that said that MS would not produce OS upgrades, leaving it to the OEMs, so that the OEMs could 'encourage' people to buy new devices?

Okay, paranoia mode off.

[epdm]

Sorry folks,

But I think this is all your own fault. As for that user that says that HP always supplied upgrades in the past. O yeah? When? I bought an Jornada 568 (IMHO better and better looking than an Compaq Ipaq) and they ditched the entire product line right after buying Compaq. Then they screw up the compaq line with models who don't even resemble "Ipaq". Gradually removing features/buttons yet still remain similar prices. I KNEW this was coming from HP.

As for Dell. Well I'm not sure how to react. Their PDA's are dirt-cheap. So I don't expect them to keep upgrading their old stuff. It would be nice though. Plus they do sell that X30 with SE so whats the problem. I mean, you get what you pay for.

In the end it appears that only Toshiba learned from past mistakes. By
1) providing full SDIO in their SD-slot
2) providing SE upgrades

They even produced an SE upgrade for that cheap E400. Which makes this model even today more current than any other cheap 3.5"QVGA low-end PDA.

As for that user that grumbles that he can't find E800. Thats weird? I called a few distributors and while they don't have the Bluetooth model anymore (that's aparantly out-of-life) they still sell the E800 wifi. At least I can get it. I don't think you've done much to actually find one since I only called Toshiba and 2 distributors. Otherwise in your case just mail-order from the UK orso...

That Toshiba seems more and more the best choice to get. Still doubting between an Asus 620BT (and ditching SE and VGA) though. Because that too is getting dirt-cheap.

Regards,

EPDM

[epdm]

Janak,

You wrote that many PPC's are very differnt from each other. But this is not so. Microsoft dictates most of which parts should be in a PPC. So as long as OEM's adhere to this Windows Mobile will run fine. It is just recently with Windows Mobile that they provided more space for aditional h/w. That's o/t reasons of the boom in PDA's with Bluetooth and wifi. Also there aren't many bluetooth or wifi chipsets out there. So most PPC (and even Palm-based) devices will include these common chips.

It goes even further. As you even gave a detailed report on who makes which PPC. And it seems that there are only a handfull of companies whom actually make PPC's (sadly a few less now). We all know who made the (current) Ipaq range and also the Asus and Pocket Loox PDA's. There isn't going to be much difference between them. At least not enough for Windows SE to crank about it since they're all based ont he same platform.

In the future when more companies drop PPC's and cpu's become more converged with inbuild-GFX subsystems and storage space, simililarities between them will even increase despites Microsofts leaway to add more functionality. It's clear that innovation will not come from these OEM's.

Regards,

EPDM

[Kevin Daly]

Hmmmm....when you add that to HP's "The Peasants Don't Need VGA" attitude demonstrated in their new product line-up, they are rapidly going down in my estimation.

I think the hardware vendors are collectively treating their user base as &lt;something icky, smelly and expendable> these days.

Disillusionment sets in... :cry:

[kosmicki]

I really wish Compaq had bought HP. Compaq did so damn many firsts. First 'portable' computer that was designed to be hauled around. (only 40 pounds!)

They helped to create some standards still in great use today (forget what ones, can't find my book)

And they had the first truly sucessful Pocket PC. Their marketing and such promoted the brand long before most of these others entered the market.

:cry:

Oh, and I would say, for all of you swearing off HP forever. They won't care. Most people who buy their stuff are clueless as to why they would want an upgrade, if it ain't broke don't fix it sort of thing. And what's to stop every other vendor from doing the same thing? Hell it seems they already are for the most part.

The attitude needs to steer from an appliance to an actual computer, judged by the same standards as a desktop. Most people I show my iPaq to don't understand at first that it is an actual fully fleged computer.
They assume it something like a gameboy. And why would you need to upgrade one of those?

Perhaps in a few years, once PDAs get more advanced and migrate to more like tiny tablets, we will see a change. But I don't think its anytime soon.

-Kosmicki

I should add 'IMO' here, so: IMO

[derek-lakin]

Like quite a few people I'm fairly ticked off about this, but I'm not just going to ditch my h5550 just so I can buy a new iPAQ that does have SE on it. To my mind that just encourages OEMs to keep doing this.

I think the feature that I wanted the most was the Landscape orientation support. I'm aware that there are third party solutions to this but I've yet to find one that works on Windows Mobile 2003. Anyone got any suggestions?

[jgrnt1]

For landscape mode, the only thing that matters to me is reading ebooks. I don't do much surfing with my PPC, so IE is not the issue it is for some. I use MobiPocket Reader Pro, which has a full-screen, landscape mode -- Cleartype support, no empty margins, no toolbars top or bottom. It works great with WM2003, I assume because it is app specific.

[juni]

I think the feature that I wanted the most was the Landscape orientation support. I'm aware that there are third party solutions to this but I've yet to find one that works on Windows Mobile 2003

I've used Nyditot Virtual Display (http://www.nyditot.com/NVDPage.asp) on my HP2210 and it works fine. The problem is that you have to do a soft reset before you get landscape. I was really looking forward to native landscape support.

[derek-lakin]

I think the feature that I wanted the most was the Landscape orientation support. I'm aware that there are third party solutions to this but I've yet to find one that works on Windows Mobile 2003

I've used Nyditot Virtual Display (http://www.nyditot.com/NVDPage.asp) on my HP2210 and it works fine. The problem is that you have to do a soft reset before you get landscape. I was really looking forward to native landscape support.

Thanks for the link Juni. Unfortunately Virtual Display doesn't seem to play nicely with Dashboard and there's some corruption on Wisbar Advance too, which screws up my use of your great skins :D . Have you found that?

Nice to see you blogging BTW :)

[mscdex]

I think the feature that I wanted the most was the Landscape orientation support. I'm aware that there are third party solutions to this but I've yet to find one that works on Windows Mobile 2003

I've used Nyditot Virtual Display (http://www.nyditot.com/NVDPage.asp) on my HP2210 and it works fine. The problem is that you have to do a soft reset before you get landscape. I was really looking forward to native landscape support.

[juni]

Thanks for the link Juni. Unfortunately Virtual Display doesn't seem to play nicely with Dashboard and there's some corruption on Wisbar Advance too, which screws up my use of your great skins. Have you found that?


I haven't tried it in a while. Last time I did it I think I was making skins for spb Pocket Plus 2. I must give it a go again. I'm not using WA2 beta, btw

[badbob001]

HP is not offering any upgrades because their new products offer little new hardware-wise.

[CTSLICK]

Hmmm...so the remaining big players have both decided not to offer the SE upgrade on existing models. The cynical part of me wants to scream collusion.

Its not that SE offers mind boggling functionality that I desparately need. Thats not what troubles me. Its the treatment of the device. They are being treated as disposable "no need to upgrade it just buy a new one" device much like a cell phone. While I am sure that business model looks great to the OEM's I just don't think its fair with the money I plunk down for one of these things. The marketing strategy and business decisions being made here are obvious as stated by many.

I'll hang on to my Dell X5 until it starts restricting my options or until someone releases a new devices that really moves the bar (Note to OEM's: an integrated camera is NOT the answer).

[DaleReeck]

It's also worth pointing out that only Toshiba ever promised an upgrade, although people still had expectations of getting one and it would have been nice of the OEMs to state their policy immediately upon the release of WM2003SE.

Asus promised an upgrade for thier A716 PDA.
According to this post, they are still planning on delivering, although its a little late.....

http://www.pocketmatrix.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17097&sid=3f5035c716eacf4cd228b045ed0152fa

A guy in tech support at Asus said that in the next two weeks, they will be releasing the SE upgrade. I found out because I was calling on another issue. There are only a few PocketPC's out there that support bluetooth headsets (most of them with the Widcomm bluetooth stack), the A716 being on of them. Except that it doesn't work - no audio comes out of the headset. That annoys me greatly since one of the reasons I bought this otherwise excellent device was for listening to audio books via my Jabra BT headset. The iPaq 5555 (which I used to own but sold) is too expensive to rebuy and the Dell X30 is about a month backordered. I got the A716, with two batteries, for $346 shipped overnight, not a bad value at all.

Anyway, Asus claims they know BT headsets are broken but have a list of a few headsets that supposedly do work while others don't. Unfortunately, one of those "good" headsets also didn't work for me. Also, he "thinks" SE will fix it (probably by accident, not on purpose). In any case, I am greatly annoyed at this whole headset thing.

[Robb Bates]

I'm just wondering how much people are willing to pay to get an upgrade.

I'm not sure how much the upgrades were previously, but I think I'd be willing to pay... oh... $60 for the upgrade. That would be a nice chunk of revenue for HP and I'm more willing to pay that now than $500-600 for a new device.

Robb

[Steven Cedrone]

I'm just wondering how much people are willing to pay to get an upgrade.

I'm not sure how much the upgrades were previously, but I think I'd be willing to pay... oh... $60 for the upgrade. That would be a nice chunk of revenue for HP and I'm more willing to pay that now than $500-600 for a new device.

I don't think I'd be willing to go quite that high, but $30.00 more or less would guaranty a purchase from me!

Steve

[PPCRules]

Well, that pretty much seals it for future devices. If a company feels it's not in their interests to offer a small-step upgrade like this, we won't see it on any subsequent device, where the customization work would be much harder.

The only reason this wouldn't stick forever is if someone leaked the recordings or the emails where Dell and HP execs agreed on this, which is something that could be contested in court. The only reason a company would offer an upgrade on any device (in place of a new sale) is if they had to from a competitive standpoint. So when the biggies agree that neither will do this, it's all over. (The little guys might still try to do it as a differentiator, but they will be less able to obsorb the development and support costs, and can't be trusted to follow through on suggestions or even promises to that effect.)

(of course I didn't read all this thread, so if I am restating what others have said, I just mean to say I agree with them.)

[KimVette]

Its not that SE offers mind boggling functionality that I desparately need. Thats not what troubles me. Its the treatment of the device. They are being treated as disposable "no need to upgrade it just buy a new one" device much like a cell phone.

. . . which is contrary to their marketing when they advertise the devices as upgradable, which provides an implied promise of upgrades to come.

I really, really, really hate HP and their management, especially Carly Fiorina. I wish Compaq had remained an independant entity, then we'd have seen a whole lot more innovation in the last three years. May Carly Fiorina burn in *bleep* for destroying a good thing.

[Scott R]

The last several years I've been hearing that the Palm OS PDAs were more like consumer devices and Pocket PCs were more like small computers. We've paid a premium price for these gadgets and I expect an OS upgrade if the device is physically capable of it. This is really lame. I don't buy into the idea that it's all out of Microsoft's hands. I think that MS and PalmSource should be taking the lead to create OS upgrades that are drop-dead simple and just leave the licensees out of it.

I'm honestly astonished by the excuse that PDAs are more "complex" than desktop PCs. Give me a break. There are tons more types of graphics cards, audio cards, etc. for desktop PCs, yet you can buy a Windows upgrade CD-ROM and Microsoft sorts it all out for you. It's really too bad MS doesn't really care enough about this little OS, otherwise they'd throw a few bucks at it and do it right.

I think I'll go ahead and ebay my h4155. I was holding out hope for an OS upgrade. Now I'll just make do with my Zodiac full-time and hope that some of the Palm OS developers can get their act together and release a decent Zodiac-compatible web browser. At least with the Zodiac Tapwave was upfront about their short-sightedness in stating that they would not be offering an OS6 upgrade.

Scott

[David Johnston]

I don't think I'd be willing to go quite that high, but $30.00 more or less would guaranty a purchase from me!

Steve

If HP know anything about business, they'll have done this sort of calculation, worked out a price point, then worked out how many people are likely to buy or not buy a new HP device, factored in unhappy customers, and worked out that strategically, it's better for them not to offer the upgrade.

HP can afford to lose some customers. Even if we don't get an SE upgrade, we'll still be using their machines. PPC upgrades offer little to manufacturers, even if they are overpriced. They're of even less worth considering costs are being cut to make these devices cheaper, at the expense of customer support.

I don't like it, at all, but it's business. HP are there to make money. They do it well.

:cry: :cry: :cry:

[Saxmoore]

HP will not be getting any more money from me - this is my last ipaq. I had a 1910 for about 8 months when they announced that there would be no upgrade for it. I made up my mind, then, not to buy any more HP products.

However, I received a gift from work in the form of "choose a handheld and we'll buy it for you." So I choose the 4155 because I wanted the built-in wireless.

Once again, I have a handheld that is less then a year old that won't be upgradable. As people have already pointed out, one of the selling points is the ability to flash an upgrade, but there is no upgrade for me to flash to. If HP thinks I'm going to spend money buying one of those boxey new models, they are wrong. I'll go back to Palm (which I had for 4 years) and HP will not be seeing anymore money from me.

Any suggestions as to who at HP should receive my comments? I assume an email going to tech support won't go much further.

Sax

[Steven Cedrone]

If HP know anything about business, they'll have done this sort of calculation, worked out a price point, then worked out how many people are likely to buy or not buy a new HP device, factored in unhappy customers, and worked out that strategically, it's better for them not to offer the upgrade.

You can bet they did that! You can bet they factored in support calls as well and decided it was just not worth it! Personally, I'll just wait and see what happens next. I'm a "skip every other version of the Pocket PC" kinda' guy anyway... :wink:

Steve

[elehcdn]

I think the feature that I wanted the most was the Landscape orientation support. I'm aware that there are third party solutions to this but I've yet to find one that works on Windows Mobile 2003

I've used Nyditot Virtual Display (http://www.nyditot.com/NVDPage.asp) on my HP2210 and it works fine.

Thanks for the link Juni. Unfortunately Virtual Display doesn't seem to play nicely with Dashboard and there's some corruption on Wisbar Advance

The issue that I have is that Adobe Reader, doesn't seem to support landscape mode, and I would like to be able to read pdf's on my handheld.

I'm pretty disappointed with this news. I have recently switched over from a Palm T3 because of all the uncertainty over WiFi and OS6. I have been enjoying the HP 2215, but really need to be able to view pdf's for school. I was considering upgrading to the new VGA models, but now, since I have yet to sell the T3, I have to consider whether I should just wait until OS6 comes out to figure out what I want to do.

[rugerx]

1 Hmm support agreement, 2yr.
2 Never used agreement.
3 Ipaq hits pavement on "accident" very very hard.
4 RMA
5 New Ipaq 2k3 se
6 =)
7 Feel guilty?
8 Not even remotely.

[Janak Parekh]

I'm sure Microsoft could cause HP to reconsider this decision with just the slightest effort.
I don't know if it's that simple. Again, I can't get into the business side of things (I've got an NDA to protect what little I know, which isn't much), but business negotiation is typically a two-way street, especially in a field where Microsoft doesn't have the same level of dominance as they do on the desktop.

Microsoft should take note that just this type of attempted device lock-in is causing me to look for alternatives.
As an MVP, I'm always providing feedback to MS. If you could tell me an alternative that does provide upgrades (I don't think Palm would be it, right?) I'll pass that along to them.

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

You wrote that many PPC's are very differnt from each other. But this is not so. Microsoft dictates most of which parts should be in a PPC. So as long as OEM's adhere to this Windows Mobile will run fine.
They dictate certain basic things (like the processor), but graphics chipsets, WiFi chipsets, USB chipsets, IR chipsets, what have you can be customized, and the OEM writes drivers to match.

Also there aren't many bluetooth or wifi chipsets out there. So most PPC (and even Palm-based) devices will include these common chips.
There's enough variety that one OS build won't fit all devices.

In the future when more companies drop PPC's and cpu's become more converged with inbuild-GFX subsystems and storage space, simililarities between them will even increase despites Microsofts leaway to add more functionality. It's clear that innovation will not come from these OEM's.
It's possible. I'm just pointing out how things are now.

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

A guy in tech support at Asus said that in the next two weeks, they will be releasing the SE upgrade. I found out because I was calling on another issue.
I'm glad to hear it! Please submit it as news when they do, and I'll give 'em kudos. ;)

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

I'm honestly astonished by the excuse that PDAs are more "complex" than desktop PCs. Give me a break. There are tons more types of graphics cards, audio cards, etc. for desktop PCs, yet you can buy a Windows upgrade CD-ROM and Microsoft sorts it all out for you. It's really too bad MS doesn't really care enough about this little OS, otherwise they'd throw a few bucks at it and do it right.
If you're quoting me, that's not what I meant. I meant that providing abstraction layers and pluggable interfaces increases overhead, and that's one of several factors involved.

Interestingly, you asserted that Palm was more of a "consumer" item, but they were first to aggressively offer updates (remember the Pro-to-III upgrade?), only to drop them later.

At least with the Zodiac Tapwave was upfront about their short-sightedness in stating that they would not be offering an OS6 upgrade.
Agreed - I implied the same in my very first post. ;)

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

I don't like it, at all, but it's business. HP are there to make money. They do it well.
Actually, they're not doing a terribly good job of it. :|

--janak

[Thaedson]

I agree with the sentiment expressed here. I didn't buy a $650 HP 5555 and $100.00 HP Keyboard and a $125.00 Battery/CF pack and various other HP attachments/products just to be burned.

If this is about MONEY then CHARGE a reasonable amount for the SE edition/upgrade.

In the future I'll be taking my consumer dollars to a vendor who will support their products for a reasonable time period. Your loss /shrug.

[PPCRules]

In the future I'll be taking my consumer dollars to a vendor who will support their products for a reasonable time period. Your loss /shrug.
That's where my point comes in: There won't be any. Upgrades are over. Next time (the last time, actually) you buy, that's the OS you'll have for the life of the device.

[Janak Parekh]

That's where my point comes in: There won't be any. Upgrades are over. Next time (the last time, actually) you buy, that's the OS you'll have for the life of the device.
Yes. And largely for the whole market, it seems. This might be good fodder for a frontpage THOUGHT...

--janak

[KimVette]

If HP know anything about business, they'll have done this sort of calculation, worked out a price point, then worked out how many people are likely to buy or not buy a new HP device, factored in unhappy customers, and worked out that strategically, it's better for them not to offer the upgrade.

When they did the calculation, they looked at only the short-term bottom line, which in HP accounting terms means "How much of a bonus and how many corporate toys can HP buy Carly at the end of this quarter?" and not long-term growth.

By their fraudulent advertising and cheaping of the iPAQ line, HP has lost me as a customer. I will not buy any HP products past the 5550/5555, and my company will never buy any HP products. This goes for PCs, servers, printers, scanners - NOTHING. By not offering upgrades and by dropping the one iPAQ product tier which is suitable for power users, they've lost a lot more than an iPAQ customer.

May Carly rot in a warm place for eternity.

[gorkon280]

In the end it appears that only Toshiba learned from past mistakes. By
1) providing full SDIO in their SD-slot
2) providing SE upgrades


I keep seeing people say that Toshiba has provided a upgrade to WM 2003 SE yet I still have not seen a US version of it. Where exactly have the released this in the US! Toshiba is not going to be in the US market very soon, just like Sony.

[Jaap van Ees]

If HP know anything about business, they'll have done this sort of calculation, worked out a price point, then worked out how many people are likely to buy or not buy a new HP device, factored in unhappy customers, and worked out that strategically, it's better for them not to offer the upgrade.

When they did the calculation, they looked at only the short-term bottom line, which in HP accounting terms means "How much of a bonus and how many corporate toys can HP buy Carly at the end of this quarter?" and not long-term growth.

By their fraudulent advertising and cheaping of the iPAQ line, HP has lost me as a customer. I will not buy any HP products past the 5550/5555, and my company will never buy any HP products. This goes for PCs, servers, printers, scanners - NOTHING. By not offering upgrades and by dropping the one iPAQ product tier which is suitable for power users, they've lost a lot more than an iPAQ customer.

May Carly rot in a warm place for eternity.

Hear, hear. My current iPaq is my last HP product. Ever.

[iPAQ_ace]

After extensive assessments of MS Windows Mobile 2003 SE support on current products, HP has decided not to offer this upgrade on existing product platforms.

Groan - its been said many times already, but I, like many others would love to fork up a little bit of dough to have the latest and greatest. While it may make sense to HP's pocket book not to offer this upgrade, at the end of the day, questions is how much bad press and upset customers are they willing to endure. Apparently, they might be willing to endure a lot...

HP is pleased to announce that it will support MS Windows Mobile 2003 SE on new products.

...so where does that leave us with the H6000 series? All the specs so far point out that the H6300 series will be released with WM2003. It's been said so far that HP would be releasing WM2003SE at a later date for it.

Somehow, I'm getting the impression that even though HP said all new products would have WM2003SE on it, the H6300 series (for trying to beat out the MPx out of the gate) will wind up not having the WM2003SE upgrade released for it.

[Kevin Daly]

All things considered, I think the sensible thing for anyone who can wait to do is not to buy any of the 2004 batch of Pocket PCs.
The 2005 models with Magneto and Compact Framework v2.0 will be much better, and on current experience it appears there will not be an upgrade path.So why lock ourselves into an inferior product?
Let them sort themselves out and get back to us.
I wish Toshiba would bring out a device with both WiFi and Bluetooth (I need both of those, I can live without compact flash).
And whatever inspired Asus to bring out a device with as I read it SD, not SDIO?
Sigh.

Maybe it's all a fiendish plot to get more people to buy smartphones... 0X

[Damion Chaplin]

And I JUST bought a 4155 off of ebay! ($245 can you believe it).
These PPCs are still being sold new at brick-and-mortar stores.
They could at least offer an upgrade for machines bought after WM2K3 was released.
How are their old models supposed to compete with their new ones?
Will they yank the 4155 off the shelves as soon as the new ones hit? People are going to buy the new units instead of the old ones, and retailers like CompUSA are going to end up with a whole warehouse full of PPCs that no one wants.

I would be willing to pay ~$50 for the upgrade to WM2K3. Pocket IE is a joke without ladscape support (unless you have a VGA screen that is), and what's the point of WiFi on a handheld without a good web browser?

This is the same old story for HP. I had the original HP Photosmart printer (no model number). A year after I bought it, Windows XP was released. HP refused to make an XP driver for it even though they did for their other Photosmart models and even though HUNDREDS of upset users were BEGGING them to do so. I had a Windows 98 machine in my house simply so I could still use that printer.

Eventually I gave up and bought a new Epson printer, having been disallusioned by HP about future support for their printers.

Now they're doing the same thing to their iPaqs. If I hadn't got that 4155 for so cheap (if I had paid full retail for it) I would be royally PO'd.

HP had better wake up and realize that making customers mad at them is VERY bad for business. I am the ONE person in my [large] circle of friends and colleagues that everyone comes to to ask what is the best PDA/Laptop/PC/Printer/You-Name-It that they should buy. You can bet I'll be steering them away from HP PDAs and Printers from now on. What's next, HP, scanners? Cameras?

[joelevi]

I've drafted a letter (not an email, printed letters get more attention for some reason) to Carly Fiorina at HP about this.

I'd like to ask each HP Pocket PC owner to send it or something similar to her via snail mail. Hopefully she'll get a hundred or so, and see the market demand for a WM2003SE upgrade and make it a reality.

Here's what I've got, please review it and correct it for accuracy and make improvements...

Carly Fiorina
3000 Hanover Street
Palo Alto, CA 94304-1185 USA

RE: Pocket PC Upgrade to Windows Mobile 2003 Second Edition

Dear Ms. Fiorina,

I purchased an HP (insert model number here) Pocket PC not long ago. One of the main selling points was the inclusion of a “flashable ROM” which allows for updates to the operating system, drives, programs etc.

Recently, Microsoft released to its partners an update of their Windows Mobile 2003 operating system, called Windows Mobile 2003 Second Edition (WM2003SE). This updated operating system has many updates and patches as well as new features that I am very interested in.

Not long ago Toshiba released a Pocket PC, but backed out on their promise to release an update to the operating system. The backlash in the community was fierce with many people vowed to avoid Toshiba for their future purchases. Many of those people decided to try HP devices as replacements.

Toshiba saw their sales plummet and learned quickly. They have since changed their stance on operating system upgrades, being one of the first to release WM2003SE upgrades. Even after having done this, the Pocket PC community is still very skeptical of Toshiba, and is very slow to even consider Toshiba as an option due to their history.

There have been conflicting reports from various individuals in your company regarding the status and expected availability of this update. I am quite concerned with the most recent which indicated there will be no WM2003SE updated to owners of the model that I have. Please assure me that this is NOT the case and let me know approximately when I can expect it.

I sincerely hope your WM2003SE update for current owners is in the works and will be available soon! I purchased your Pocket PC because of its sleek form-factor, built-in capabilities, expandability, and future value. Without this update, the future value of this device is greatly reduced!

In either case, please let me know, once and for all, what HP’s intentions are, when (or if) we can expect the WM2003SE update.

[ctmagnus]

Hope you don't mind, I linked to your post in my sig ;)

[joelevi]

Hope you don't mind, I linked to your post in my sig ;)

Don't mind at all! The more letters that Carly gets, the more likely we are to get our WM2003SE update! :)

Thanks!!

[marovada]

You wrote that many PPC's are very differnt from each other. But this is not so. Microsoft dictates most of which parts should be in a PPC. So as long as OEM's adhere to this Windows Mobile will run fine.
They dictate certain basic things (like the processor), but graphics chipsets, WiFi chipsets, USB chipsets, IR chipsets, what have you can be customized, and the OEM writes drivers to match.

Also there aren't many bluetooth or wifi chipsets out there. So most PPC (and even Palm-based) devices will include these common chips.
There's enough variety that one OS build won't fit all devices.

In the future when more companies drop PPC's and cpu's become more converged with inbuild-GFX subsystems and storage space, simililarities between them will even increase despites Microsofts leaway to add more functionality. It's clear that innovation will not come from these OEM's.
It's possible. I'm just pointing out how things are now.

--janak

These are just lame excuses. Poor Microsoft can't make an operating system to run on PPCs without the OEM's assistance (eg. drivers). Sounds like Linux. And MS is supposed to be better than than.

[Janak Parekh]

These are just lame excuses. Poor Microsoft can't make an operating system to run on PPCs without the OEM's assistance (eg. drivers). Sounds like Linux. And MS is supposed to be better than than.
No, again, that's not what I mean. I am saying that the way CE/Pocket PC exists now, a "build" is created for a specific device. It's done using a product called "Platform Builder" by the OEMs. At build creation time, all the specific drivers, etc. are loaded, and the image that's churned out is customized for the device. You can't take that image and use it on other Pocket PCs.

I understand your point -- a modular architecture would be superior -- and, being a Computer Scientist, I'd agree. CE may be capable of that (Linux certainly is), but it's not done that way currently for a variety of reasons. I personally would prefer a modular approach as well, but that's beyond my control at this point. :| And I'm not trying to "excuse" Microsoft per se... just trying to explain the circumstances as they stand now.

--janak

[Jonathon Watkins]

So, who's out there that's gonna offer upgrades? ;)

Toshiba? :?

The rumoured update to the e805 is sounding better all the time.......

[webagogue]

Hope you don't mind, I linked to your post in my sig ;)

Don't mind at all! The more letters that Carly gets, the more likely we are to get our WM2003SE update! :)

Thanks!!

Hell yes! Thanks, Joe. I'll be printing out a similar letter on my (last ever) HP printer.

Even though I really like my 4155 and plan to keep it for a little while (perhaps longer should HP pull their heads out of their a$$es) I don't have to advertise for HP by having an "HP" logo on it. I recently scuffed the silver paint on one side of my PPC and I've been thinking about the possibilities for modding the faceplate. I think that ipod white would look sweet.

And for the milquetoast, yes I know it will void my warranty... blah blah blah. :twisted:

[marovada]

These are just lame excuses. Poor Microsoft can't make an operating system to run on PPCs without the OEM's assistance (eg. drivers). Sounds like Linux. And MS is supposed to be better than than.
No, again, that's not what I mean. I am saying that the way CE/Pocket PC exists now, a "build" is created for a specific device. It's done using a product called "Platform Builder" by the OEMs. At build creation time, all the specific drivers, etc. are loaded, and the image that's churned out is customized for the device. You can't take that image and use it on other Pocket PCs.

I understand your point -- a modular architecture would be superior -- and, being a Computer Scientist, I'd agree. CE may be capable of that (Linux certainly is), but it's not done that way currently for a variety of reasons. I personally would prefer a modular approach as well, but that's beyond my control at this point. :| And I'm not trying to "excuse" Microsoft per se... just trying to explain the circumstances as they stand now.

--janak

I appreciate what you're saying. However, I trust you can't be more explicit about the "variety of reasons", which leaves me a bit at a loose end. It is precisely these reasons that will help me understand better and whether or not the current situation is justifiable (because that is the point I am making - there needs to be good justification to leave the OS upgrade to the discretion of the OEM because this is what is allowing the OEM to have its greedy way and is what is upsetting everyone here.)

What are the reasons?

[kosmicki]

I don't have to advertise for HP by having an "HP" logo on it.

Erm... That just seems.... No offence, but it seems rather stupid :|

I'm curious to know what your thinking on that point is...



I don't think I'm going to abandon HP cause of this, yeah it sucks, but it will become the norm for all PPC vendors unless something changes, maybe once the general public gets wind of SE and starts to complain we might see something, but a few hundred people won't make them change their minds.

[webagogue]

I don't have to advertise for HP by having an "HP" logo on it.

Erm... That just seems.... No offence, but it seems rather stupid :|

I'm curious to know what your thinking on that point is...

I don't think I'm going to abandon HP cause of this, yeah it sucks, but it will become the norm for all PPC vendors unless something changes, maybe once the general public gets wind of SE and starts to complain we might see something, but a few hundred people won't make them change their minds.

Hmm... how could I ever be offended by you calling me/my idea "stupid?"

How about this... don't be offended, but you are a pansy sell-out with no imagination and no sense of humor. :devilboy:

I scuffed the faceplate. That means that there are scratch marks on the front of my otherwise shiny ipaq. I was being facetious about the not having to "advertise for HP." Seriously, tell me an ipod-white pocketpc with the 4155 form factor wouldn't be cool as hell! I was thinking of doing the same thing to my much-more-scratched-up Rio Karma. No, I am not an Apple fanboy. And yes, I could have just bought an ipod, but I couldn't get used to those touch controls. But I digress.

As for it "becoming the norm" &lt;sarcasm>then, yes, we should all just accept whatever corpoprations (do not) want to sell us because 'a few hundred people won't make them change their minds.' Yep. Never complain. Never demand a higher level or service... or even politely request better service because 'a few hundred people won't make them change their minds.' Makes perfect sense to me. "The Leader is good! The Leader is great! We surrender our will, as of this date!"&lt;/sarcasm>

***before flaming back, please note the &lt;sarcasm> tags.

[Janak Parekh]

What are the reasons?
I hinted towards some of them. I really don't know if I can say any more, as we MVPs are NDAed on any discussions on this topic. :( It's frustrating, believe me...

(And before you ask, no, I'm not privy to the internal discussions at HP, et. al.... just a little bit on the Microsoft side of things.)

--janak

[ctmagnus]

Seriously, tell me an ipod-white pocketpc with the 4155 form factor wouldn't be cool as hell!

No, but a nice, glossy (or matte) Rio Karma/iRiver black one would be. imo an iPod white one would be a little too Gandalfy-looking. Not that Gandalf isn't cool or anything, I'd just prefer a black Pocket PC over a white one.

[Kati Compton]

***before flaming back, please note the &lt;sarcasm> tags.

Putting &lt;sarcasm> tags around insults does not automatically make them okay. Please tone it down, and get back on topic. Thanks!

[juni]

Well, since it still is only a rumor maybe someone from PPCT could officially ask HP (I assume PPCT staff has some influence in the mobile business world)...?

[joelevi]

No, again, that's not what I mean. I am saying that the way CE/Pocket PC exists now, a "build" is created for a specific device. It's done using a product called "Platform Builder" by the OEMs. At build creation time, all the specific drivers, etc. are loaded, and the image that's churned out is customized for the device. You can't take that image and use it on other Pocket PCs.

I understand your point -- a modular architecture would be superior -- and, being a Computer Scientist, I'd agree.

This idea my be a silly one, but why not SEPARATE the OS from the (1) drivers, and (2) OEM added bells-and-whistles?

Isn't that the way Windows on the desktop/tablet/laptop scene works? You can just plunk down a new version of Windows, THEN load up your drivers (chipset, video, etc.), THEN install any custom apps that you want.

Why would that be so difficult to do for a Pocket PC? In that scenario we'd buy the OS upgrade from Microsoft, pay them the money, and to hell with the OEMs if they're not willing to invest the time in the update.

Just my two bits.

Even though I really like my 4155 and plan to keep it for a little while ... I don't have to advertise for HP by having an "HP" logo on it. I recently scuffed the silver paint on one side of my PPC and I've been thinking about the possibilities for modding the faceplate. I think that ipod white would look sweet.

Sweet! If you do decide to "mod" it, or even just custom paint it, please take step-by-step pics and give us a blow-by-blow "here's why I did, and how I did it" write up on it! That'd be cool!

I don't think I'm going to abandon HP cause of this, yeah it sucks, but it will become the norm for all PPC vendors unless something changes, maybe once the general public gets wind of SE and starts to complain we might see something, but a few hundred people won't make them change their minds.

If HP or (insert your OEM here) would drop the price of their Pocket PC devices by $150 and clearly stated that the operating system WAS NOT upgradeable, I don't think we'd be having this discussion.

One of the primary reasons I went with a high-end HP was (1) because the ROM is flashable with updates/upgrades, and (2) since it was top-of-the-line when I bought it, I figured HP would have a greater respect for those that invested in it. Apparently neither one of these is so.

However, I'm waiting not giving up hope, and I'm writing Carly Fiorina, (and asking all of you to do the same) to draw attention to this type of issue.

Well, since it still is only a rumor maybe someone from PPCT could officially ask HP (I assume PPCT staff has some influence in the mobile business world)...?

Exactly my point, Juni! Thanks for bringing us back to action!

As the saying goes, it's lonely at the top. I can only assume that this applies to Ms. Carly Fiorina as well. She may not know how frustrated and dissapointed we, as her customers, actually are! And as paying customers who really don't want to go elsewhere if it can be avoided, I think it's our obligation to tell the person at the top how we feel.

Now, don't get me wrong, we should remain professional, not drop any ultimatims, just keep it simple, to the point, respectful, while keeping focus on communicating our disappointment and frustration with this rumor. At the very least we should be able to get a confirmation or denail of the rumor... and we will have done our best to let her know what would be best for a representative(?) sample of her consumers.

Again, just my two bits....

Then again... I may be running out of bits... :oops: (Sorry for the uber-long post.)

[Zoot]

:bad-words:
Here is something to think of for HP/Dell and others who try to pull this trick on their customers:

Here is how i will/would have reacted if HP keep their word about SE upgradability:
&lt;snip>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SUM MEDIO 2005= *ching*ching*ching* minimum $1160 + word of mounth free goodwill and marketing
=================================================


Here is how i will react if HP lie to me and dont keep their word about SE upgradabilyty:
Current device: 8 months old iPAQ 4150
&lt;snip>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SUM MEDIO 2005= *ching* $550 - word of mounth, lost goodwill and free marketing
=================================================

Go ahead HP/Dell, its your choice. SE might sound small and insignificant,. But at least listen to us. Im sure you get the picture by reading the comments here and in other forums.
If you chose the second alternative (not provide the upgrade) and medio 2005 in astonishment find that the bottom line have shrinked.
Dont come tell me the PDA-market have colapsed and that there is no interest in PDAs anymore.

Dont let SE be the Sure End, to our passion.

:bad-words:

Bang on the money, my friend :(
Valued Customers Was Us. More like Valued Customers Wazoo now :(

As a sidenote, if this was about WM2004, I wouldn't be at all bothered. The improvements that WM2003SE delivers I see as desireable.

If this rumour is true, I won't be junking my 6-month-old 4155 but I certainly won't be shopping hp for its successor.

[jonathanchoo]

Before I purchased my 4155, I called HP and asked the rep specifically about SE . I was told over the phone it would be available for the 4155.

That is what happened to me. I was purchasing a h4150 in April and news of SE came out. I cancelled the order. Called a HP rep and was told that current devices (those bought a few months before) are likely to be upgraded with a new OS. Then I went ahead to order the iPAQ.

Many people say that PDA and PCs are different but remember - Microsoft marketed PocketPCs as well - pocketable PCs! I thought having a large 32Mb ROM would mean upgradability (for years PocketPC users have been mocking PalmOS users for their tiny ROM).

Hmm...iPAQ hx4705 or Tungsten T4...I take the T4 thank you

[epdm]

To Gork280: I downloaded both WM2003SE and non-SE from the European site. I fail to see why this update wont work on US-machines?
In the US are only the WiFi-models but the SE-upgrade for E800-wifi is also on that site

The URL below is from the CAnada website

http://209.167.114.38/support/Download/readme/pocketpc/e800update.htm

or the german site whom even have the original WM2003 non-SE

http://www.toshiba-tro.de/unitdetails/TEDD.asp?serial=&model=PD800E-00001-FR&useraclID=10&language=English

The above site distinguish between BT and Wifi-models. Again I see no reason why this doesn't work on a US model.

And here the same for the E400

http://uk.computers.toshiba-europe.com/cgi-bin/ToshibaCSG/download_drivers_bios.jsp?z=31&service=UK

You just give either E400 or E800 in the search pattern
and it'll find all the upgrades. Youc an even input USA as country so it seems that this service point is global.

To Jonathon Watkins: What do you mean by "rumoured update"?
It's been out for several weeks now???

See the above links to download it for either the E400 and E800

Regards,

Manu T

[Janak Parekh]

Well, since it still is only a rumor maybe someone from PPCT could officially ask HP (I assume PPCT staff has some influence in the mobile business world)...?
I don't have any HP contacts, myself. :( I'm waiting to see if anything comes down the MVP channels...

This idea my be a silly one, but why not SEPARATE the OS from the (1) drivers, and (2) OEM added bells-and-whistles?
As I implied earlier, this involves the creation of a abstraction layers that adds a performance overhead. Historically, this has not been an attractive option for CE kernels. As processors and architectures become faster, this may become increasingly possible. In that case, it would be up to MS and the OEMs to hammer out a setup that would work.

--janak

[joelevi]

This idea my be a silly one, but why not SEPARATE the OS from the (1) drivers, and (2) OEM added bells-and-whistles?
As I implied earlier, this involves the creation of a abstraction layers that adds a performance overhead. Historically, this has not been an attractive option for CE kernels. As processors and architectures become faster, this may become increasingly possible. In that case, it would be up to MS and the OEMs to hammer out a setup that would work.

--janak[/quote]

Even still... we're perpetuating a disposable society by not doing this... True, there's overhead of any type of abstraction layer... ANY kind of added layers for that matter (look at ethernet)... but sometimes it's necessary to get the job done... or to allow for greater flexibility/expandability...

I'm not as geeky as you are, Janak, I barely know what a hardware abstraction layer is... but even still... frustrating... lol

[Janak Parekh]

Even still... we're perpetuating a disposable society by not doing this... True, there's overhead of any type of abstraction layer... ANY kind of added layers for that matter (look at ethernet)... but sometimes it's necessary to get the job done... or to allow for greater flexibility/expandability...
I understand. However, the way CE is architected is a little beyond my control right now. ;)

--janak

[SassKwatch]

I fall squarely in the "it's not so much missing the SE thing as it is the precedent being set" crowd.

It's just this simple....I will not succumb to a marketing strategy that forces me to spend $5-600 each yr to have the latest *OS*. That's just utterly absurd.

*IF* this proves to be true, it only makes such vaporous products as OQO and Flipstart that much more appealing. I'd gladly spend $17-1800 for one of those that I have a good chance of keeping for several yr as opposed to a $5-600 *PDA*.

The only thing I'd miss in PocketPC's if I wind up going that route is PocketPCThoughts.

[Janak Parekh]

*IF* this proves to be true, it only makes such vaporous products as OQO and Flipstart that much more appealing.
Not so fast -- how well will Longhorn run on an OQO? ;) And will drivers be supported? A recent trend that's been started is nonupgradeability, even on laptops, due to the lack of a proper set of drivers. Sony is particularly notorious for this. Things like Tablet PC Edition and Media Center Edition only enhance the "one device, one OS" mantra.

I have enough data for a frontpage rant that I'm going to write up over the weekend. The consumerization of the industry definitely has its downsides, and this one is becoming increasingly noticeable to us "old-timers".

--janak

[SassKwatch]

Not so fast -- how well will Longhorn run on an OQO? ;)
Probably not at all. But unless MS changes past 'sunset' practices, it's much more likely that an XP equipped 'ultrapersonal' pc (regardless of the flavor) will remain *very* usable for several yr than will a $5-600 pda.

In hindsight, the offering of free upgrades was probably never a financially smart idea for the OEM's who did so. But swinging the pendulum to the opposite extreme of offering *no* upgrades is even dumber.

As others have suggested, I tended to purchase the top of the line (or one model removed from) because it should in theory be an upgradeable device.

To be honest, I've gradually becoming somewhat disenchanted with the PPC platform for over a yr now anyway. And once again, I'll emphasize that *IF* this rumor proves to be true, it will likely be only the straw that breaks the camel's back for me. Heck, I start to get excited just contemplating the *possibility* of not having to deal with ActiveStink.

[christak]

I fall squarely in the "it's not so much missing the SE thing as it is the precedent being set" crowd.

It's just this simple....I will not succumb to a marketing strategy that forces me to spend $5-600 each yr to have the latest *OS*. That's just utterly absurd.

*IF* this proves to be true, it only makes such vaporous products as OQO and Flipstart that much more appealing. I'd gladly spend $17-1800 for one of those that I have a good chance of keeping for several yr as opposed to a $5-600 *PDA*.

The only thing I'd miss in PocketPC's if I wind up going that route is PocketPCThoughts.

I agree completely -- those handtop/ultrapersonal devices are looking better to me too... I'd rather be running XP Pro on an ultra small device...

[Janak Parekh]

Probably not at all. But unless MS changes past 'sunset' practices, it's much more likely that an XP equipped 'ultrapersonal' pc (regardless of the flavor) will remain *very* usable for several yr than will a $5-600 pda.
Perhaps. It really depends on what you need. If you need desktop-like functionality, then yes, that "upc" category is going to suit you better -- and some of the devices that are on the verge of coming out look awesome.

In hindsight, the offering of free upgrades was probably never a financially smart idea for the OEM's who did so.
In fact, out of the first three OEMs that offered Pocket PCs, only one of the three were upgradeable: the 3650. Neither the 548 nor the E-125 were, and in fact they didn't have flash ROM. The expectation that all manufacturers must support upgrades is something we've developed as a community, as far as I can tell.

As others have suggested, I tended to purchase the top of the line (or one model removed from) because it should in theory be an upgradeable device.
Well, to each their own. ;) I purchase based on the specs -- upgradeability is only one variable that increases the attractiveness of a device, but isn't the deal maker-or-breaker.

To be honest, I've gradually becoming somewhat disenchanted with the PPC platform for over a yr now anyway.
Understood -- and perhaps the lack of an upgrade is a flashpoint.

Heck, I start to get excited just contemplating the *possibility* of not having to deal with ActiveStink.
Well, yes, but make sure the upc does what you need it to. Note that, for example, they don't have syncing out-of-the-box. Are you going to copy your PSTs manually, for example? Or do you have access to an Exchange server?

--janak

[szia5]

Would it be possible for a third party to build WM2003SE for these HP and Dell units? I guess technically it's no big deal, but how about the licensing? If HP and Dell announce that they are not going to offer upgrades, then I see no reason why Microsoft wouldn't give licenses to a third party that would be willing to do it. Maybe even a few interested users could accomplish it. Any insights on this?

[Janak Parekh]

Would it be possible for a third party to build WM2003SE for these HP and Dell units?
That's a great question. I guess there may be ways to do it technically, but there would have to be a business-side arrangement that probably doesn't exist today.

--janak

[szia5]

But you think that the current agreements between Microsoft and Dell/HP don't exclude this possibility? As I see it, for Microsoft it would be advantageous to be able to sell more licenses.

[Janak Parekh]

But you think that the current agreements between Microsoft and Dell/HP don't exclude this possibility? As I see it, for Microsoft it would be advantageous to be able to sell more licenses.
I have no clue. I already speculated one way, but it is in no way authoritative.

--janak

[juni]

Well, Ed from Brighthand seems to officially confirm there will be no updates:

Article at Brighthand (http://www.brighthand.com/article/No_Windows_Mobile_SE_Upgrades_from_HP_Dell)

That just made my HP2210 obsolete. :(

[kosmicki]

Hmm... how could I ever be offended by you calling me/my idea "stupid?"

How about this... don't be offended, but you are a pansy sell-out with no imagination and no sense of humor. :devilboy:

Hmm, I concede on the first point, though from my point of view from the way you phrased it, it sounded that way to me. Town I live in has many... lets say 'radical activists' of all sorts, who have actually called me a corporate pawn for wearing my Nike t-shirt. (That I got for $1 at goodwill, and it's dang comfy.) Text is a poor way to inflect tone, so to me, it seemed like you could be quite serious about the same sort of subject.

Instead of just going 'j00r st00pid' I asked what your thoughts were, I did not make any assumptions about you or your character.

Call me what ya will, I know if you are wrong or right ;) (About ME, I don't need to insert more flamebait :mrgreen:)

As for it "becoming the norm" &lt;sarcasm>then, yes, we should all just accept whatever corpoprations (do not) want to sell us because 'a few hundred people won't make them change their minds.' Yep. Never complain. Never demand a higher level or service... or even politely request better service because 'a few hundred people won't make them change their minds.' Makes perfect sense to me. "The Leader is good! The Leader is great! We surrender our will, as of this date!"&lt;/sarcasm>

***before flaming back, please note the &lt;sarcasm> tags.

I don't flame, and despite thousands of people saying what they want, the RIAA still seems to ignore that. Demanding certain things, an improvement in the way they can get product, and better service, not a whole lot changed. (I know it is a different matter, but it is related in that way, and I don't wish to start a flamewar on that can o' worms either...)

It does not always work, but hey, I never said don't try. This is MY opinion, I never said it was the only one, or the correct one. Just my thoughts on the matter. Granted, I never added that 'IMHO' thing, or phrased ‘I think’ ‘I feel’. That’s just how I write.

I apologize if there WAS any offence, it is not my intent to insult anyone (or call anyone an activist :) ) nor is this post attempting to insult or belittle.

(And to the mods, this is my last reply on this (on the thread at least), I try not to engage in flamewars or exceeding off topic subjects.)

-kosmicki :oops:

[joelevi]

However, the way CE is architected is a little beyond my control right now. ;)

Hehehe... Never meant to imply otherwise... Just using the forum to pose conceptual musings of an ideal society where CE devices are truely upgradeable, water and power are clean, and we're all respectful of each other's beliefs... oh... and the streets are paved with gold! ;)

More to the point, I agree with what's been said elsewhere in this thread, in that, it's not so much what I'll be missing out on by not getting SE, it's the precedent.

If OEMs know that customers expect XIP and ROM patches, a minor OS updates (say to SE), and a major OS update, how much more durability and functionality and forethought will go into their products?

Guess it's back to my "streets paved with gold" dream... but I'm working on that one, too! ;)

Thanks for the feedback, it's always appreciated, Janak!

[Vidge]

Heck, I start to get excited just contemplating the *possibility* of not having to deal with ActiveStink.
Well, yes, but make sure the upc does what you need it to. Note that, for example, they don't have syncing out-of-the-box. Are you going to copy your PSTs manually, for example? Or do you have access to an Exchange server?

--janak

I'm not sure what you are getting at here. If you are talking about a Palm unit, then yes, they do have syncing out-of-the box.

[Janak Parekh]

If OEMs know that customers expect XIP and ROM patches, a minor OS updates (say to SE), and a major OS update, how much more durability and functionality and forethought will go into their products?
And what will happen to the cost? Very good questions, but quite frankly, most of the consumers don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about.

Guess it's back to my "streets paved with gold" dream... but I'm working on that one, too! ;)
We all are. ;)

--janak

[SassKwatch]

As others have suggested, I tended to purchase the top of the line (or one model removed from) because it should in theory be an upgradeable device.
Well, to each their own. ;) I purchase based on the specs -- upgradeability is only one variable that increases the attractiveness of a device, but isn't the deal maker-or-breaker.
Bad wording on my part. What I meant was the upgradeablity was *one* of the factors that influenced my purchases. You're right...how well specs meet current needs and those for the foreseeable future are numero uno.

Well, yes, but make sure the upc does what you need it to. Note that, for example, they don't have syncing out-of-the-box. Are you going to copy your PSTs manually, for example? Or do you have access to an Exchange server?
Synching is simply not all *that* important to me. I do it, but it's as much for the extra 'backup' that it provides as for the synching needs. The only thing I'm all that picky about synching is contacts. Everything else is gravy. Gravy I could live without.

But should it become something I miss, I'd probably pick up a copy of something like '2nd Copy'. From the short testing I did with it a while back, it , it seemed to do as good a job as ActiveSync.

[cwill128]

Well that does it for me. I have been playing with the Tungsten T3 and I think that my axim is going to be put out to pasture. I have had it with Dell (and microsoft for that matter).

[doughboy]

I may be a bit late but must vent my frustration with HP. It appears Brighthand confirms that HP will not be offering the upgrade to WM2003SE for my 2210. To not offer a free OS upgrade when I purchased the PPC only this year is disgusting. To not offer an OS upgrade for $20 - $30 is unacceptable. What is the use of flash ROM if ROM upgrades are not going to be offered? I feel misled.

I do want to encourage everyone to write Ms. Fiorina using JoeLevi’s template letter located in this thread.

HP can change its policy. HP probably did calculate the costs involved in supplying a WM2003SE ROM update. However, there are two considerations in a Discounted Cash Flow or Internal Rate of Return analysis – cash outflows and cash inflows. I believe HP has overestimated future inflows due to purchases of its new units that include WM2003SE caused by its decision not to supply an upgrade and has underestimated the reduction in goodwill failure to supply an upgrade will cause. History is replete with intelligent business people underestimating the negative reaction and consequences from their customer base (i.e. New Coke).

If HP does not change its policy, I will not scrap my Ipaq, but it will be the last HP product I purchase (… except for maybe a printer). As much as I LOVE my Ipaq and try to spread the PPC gospel, because of principle, alone I will need to move to a Handheld PC or one of the 2.5 lb. laptops after my Ipaq becomes painfully obsolete.

It was just the other day I was speaking with my father pressing him to demand a new PPC from Toshiba, since he has already sent it in once for warranty work and it still periodically hard resets. If he could not obtain satisfaction from Toshiba, I encouraged him to consider an Ipaq. I told him the two reasons I decided on my Ipaq over the Toshiba e755 – software package and support. So much for support. I will steer him away from HP now.[/quote][/b]

[Janak Parekh]

I have been playing with the Tungsten T3 and I think that my axim is going to be put out to pasture.
Because of upgradeability? :| Is the T3 going to be upgradeable to the next Palm OS? (And will they ever get WiFi!?)

What is the use of flash ROM if ROM upgrades are not going to be offered?
HP releases update ROMs reasonably regularly running the original WM2003. Without flash ROM, that wouldn't be possible. Additionally, flash ROM gives you an additional "file store".

--janak

[shawnc]

1 Hmm support agreement, 2yr.
2 Never used agreement.
3 Ipaq hits pavement on "accident" very very hard.
4 RMA
5 New Ipaq 2k3 se
6 =)
7 Feel guilty?
8 Not even remotely.

14 pages of posts and this is the best idea yet. I say "Go For It!". HP is clearly wrong for promising, and reneging, not for technical reasons, but in the pursuit of money. Feel Guilty? No Way!

I'm with Ed (12 pages back. MAN you folks are PASSIONATE :wink: ) on this. I don't know that I was looking forward to the hassle of a hard-reset, the guaranteed issues that will occur with MS Reader/Passport, etc.

But I have to admit that I did overpay for my current device for two reasons, looks/weight and support (i.e. upgradeability). I'm a little dissapointed that HP has taken this route though I can't say for certain that I would have purchased the upgrade anyway. Heck, I still haven't upgraded to the new Reader simply because I know it will mess up my ability to open all of my DRM-protected ebooks. I know it's not SUPPOSSED to, but it will.

[Vidge]

I have been playing with the Tungsten T3 and I think that my axim is going to be put out to pasture.
Because of upgradeability? :| Is the T3 going to be upgradeable to the next Palm OS? (And will they ever get WiFi!?)
--janak

No one knows if the T3 is going to be updated but then again, at least Palm isn't misleading people about it. I bought my hp4155 because I was under the impression that WM2003SE would be made available, based on the postings here and other places. After owning the x30 briefly, I was anticipating the upgrade if, for nothing else, the landscape mode, which I use quite a bit on my T3.

And I've said before: I use the Enfora Portfolio for Wifi on my T3 so yes, there is a Wifi solution.

[Janak Parekh]

No one knows if the T3 is going to be updated but then again, at least Palm isn't misleading people about it. I bought my hp4155 because I was under the impression that WM2003SE would be made available, based on the postings here and other places.
I have a feeling that all of us were too presumptive about that. I'm not sure HP ever advertised the capability to upgrade -- we just extrapolated it from experiences from the Compaq (3600/3800/3900) days.

And I've said before: I use the Enfora Portfolio for Wifi on my T3 so yes, there is a Wifi solution.
Whoa, that's pretty slick, if bulky. :) Thanks for the heads-up. Not for me, but I'll keep it in mind if a Palm owner asks.

--janak

[Vidge]

And I've said before: I use the Enfora Portfolio for Wifi on my T3 so yes, there is a Wifi solution.
Whoa, that's pretty slick, if bulky. :) Thanks for the heads-up. Not for me, but I'll keep it in mind if a Palm owner asks.

--janak

It does add some bulk but not nearly as much as you might think. Take a look here (http://www.dailygadget.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2418)

[robshobs]

Well, I was waiting for the new IPAQ's and was planning for a purchase this fall. It will not be from HP.

Need BT, WiFi, VGA, consumer IR. Would like 128MB, large screen, good support.

Any recommendations?

[Janak Parekh]

Need BT, WiFi, VGA, consumer IR. Would like 128MB, large screen, good support.
I'm not sure any of them will have all you ask for, but I have a frontpage post coming up shortly on all of the announced VGA Pocket PCs to date. :)

--janak

[Chrashing]

Ya know, I remember the day that this was orignally announced. HP said it would support a WM2003SE upgrade for the 2200, 4100 and (I think) the 4300 (could be wrong on that last one...)

I ditched my 5455 on eBay because the 5000 series was left out and bought a 2200. I bought it specifically because HP said they would provide an upgrade for the 2200...

I love it when I'm lied to... If this is in fact the case, this is another OEM that won't get my money next time around...

Yea, this isn't a very "shinny" or "wonderful" example of HP support. Who'd of known that HP would write us all off.

[stevew]

Not sure if this has been said already but what happens if we purchase one of the new HP units coming out and in a few months Microsoft Windows Mobile 2004 comes out. Are we gonna get screwed again?

[Chrashing]

Not sure if this has been said already but what happens if we purchase one of the new HP units coming out and in a few months Microsoft Windows Mobile 2004 comes out. Are we gonna get screwed again?

YES. It's happen to me twice, with my h3765 and now h1945.

[epdm]

I really wish Compaq had bought HP. Compaq did so damn many firsts. First 'portable' computer that was designed to be hauled around. (only 40 pounds!)



Are you sure? Wasn't that Osborne with the first portable PC? Or was it Kaipro... hmmm... it probably was so insignificant that I can't even remember :devilboy:

Regards,

Manu T

[epdm]

Not sure if this has been said already but what happens if we purchase one of the new HP units coming out and in a few months Microsoft Windows Mobile 2004 comes out. Are we gonna get screwed again?

Of course.

[epdm]

Would it be possible for a third party to build WM2003SE for these HP and Dell units? I guess technically it's no big deal, but how about the licensing? If HP and Dell announce that they are not going to offer upgrades, then I see no reason why Microsoft wouldn't give licenses to a third party that would be willing to do it. Maybe even a few interested users could accomplish it. Any insights on this?

Well I was thinking along a similar line. However not with regards to a third party developper but to Microsoft itself.

What do I mean?

Well appart from some kernel changes which can't be "sold" ouside the OEM's domain and won't work on the non-SE OS of course. There are probably certain items which can be run on present non-SE machines. I'm thinking of PIE for instance. What's stopping Microsoft from releasing soft-loadable upgraded versions from these programs on their website?

They do it with their MSN-messengerclient or their pocketReader, so why not iextending this to more programs which come included in SE (like the afformentioned PIE)?

Or is the concept of softloadable modules unknown to M$? Then they really ought to look at Acorn's Risc OS which is also a ROM-based OS which has softloadable extensions/upgrades.

I tried to copy some o/t ROM-based exe-files to my HD on my E800 BT and I couldn't get the ROM-able data out. But there are surely more clever ppl out there than me who can. Has anyon try to run the new PIE on the old WM2003?

Regadrs,

Manu T

[Janak Parekh]

Not sure if this has been said already but what happens if we purchase one of the new HP units coming out and in a few months Microsoft Windows Mobile 2004 comes out. Are we gonna get screwed again?
Seeing as how SE just came out a few months ago, I'd be very surprised if 2004 was right around the corner. Anyway, if it was, it would again be up to the OEMs to decide. And, of course, you're assuming that the next version of Pocket PC is even hardware-compatible...

One thing you also shouldn't forget -- just because a new version of Pocket PC comes out doesn't mean your current device is invalidated! I carry an i700 with PPC2002 every day with me, and for the most part, I don't miss WM2003 at all -- I'd just like some minor bugs with the i700 fixed.

--janak

[docpr0phet]

If this is certainly true then HP will be my next boycott. I am supposed to suggest a PDA for our sales force to use (20 people), HP will not be getting my recommendation if there is no upgrade path to current PPC's.

Too bad, they have a nice product but if they will not make upgrades available to the OS I cannot justify a purchase.

Toshiba was my first boycott and they lost out on a very large order (50+) I had spec'd for a government agency. It is good to let these numbnutz know that the consumer is still boss.

I now start my search...............

[sesummers]

I was looking forward to it. I have Nydotit virtual display, but it's not worth much when the apps don't understand landscape mode.

[The PocketTV Team]

I was looking forward to it. I have Nydotit virtual display, but it's not worth much when the apps don't understand landscape mode.

Most of the apps that benefit from landscape (e.g. PIE, InBox) do take advantage of Landscape with NVD (Nyditot Virtual Display).

So it's an alternate solution worth considering.

If you have a Toshiba e800 series, you can try the free MyVGA, which gives access to VGA resolution and Landscape.

[MikeInDallas]

Compaq's 3630 (pre-HP, the original iPAQ), had many ROM updates, all the way up to version 1.87 (that's a LOT of updates). It was originally released with CE v3.00 (2000) and the company still offers a 2002 upgrade for it. This is a reasonable upgrade path. :D

What we are now seeing is unacceptable, especially when the technical specifications suggest the operating system can be upgraded. :devilboy: Toshiba's handling of the e740 is shameful (some units were still in stores when they announced they were not going to provide a flash upgrade for it). Possibly as a result, those who follow the used handheld market can confirm that Toshiba devices are amongst the worst at holding their value over time. Check out eBay sometime. The original iPAQ 3630/3650 averages around $100, sometimes approaching $200 if they're very clean, whereas I've seen e740's in good shape sell for under $100. It's as if nobody wants an abandoned orphan.

If upgrading the OS is that difficult, or fear of technical support cost is that great 8O, perhaps OEMs should raise the price of the upgrade product. $50 seems reasonable to me, and that's significantly more than most OEMs have charged in the past. Since this is clearly about profit and not about the consumer, make the upgrade product more profitable so the customer, along with the product, is not abandoned.

OEMs are only hurting their future profits on these and other products, because many people are saying they "will never buy brand X again". Check Usenet...there's a lot of grumbling going on.

Alternatively, Microsoft should consider supporting third-party OS upgrades. This isn't just about the specific OEM, it's about how customers perceive the stability and support of Windows CE/Windows Mobile products in general. A friend just last night said he had "had it with Pocket PC" and was "going back to Handspring".

Abandoning products while the customer's checkbook is still smoking, IMHO, greatly discredits claims to "customer commitment" :evil: , and it doesn't give the platform good PR either (are you listening Microsoft?).

Mike Welch
PocketPC Developer
Dallas

[Kati Compton]

Alternatively, Microsoft should consider supporting third-party OS upgrades. This isn't just about the specific OEM, it's about how customers perceive the stability and support of Windows CE/Windows Mobile products in general. A friend just last night said he had "had it with Pocket PC" and was "going back to Handspring".
That would involve giving Microsoft all the details on the design of the unit, which I don't think the OEMs would want to do. Plus, if they started doing it for one, then the other OEMs would wonder why *they're* bothering to do it, and it'd *all* fall on Microsoft. I'm not saying that they don't have the employees, but then what happens is that they raise the price of the software, and it's not the upgrades that necessarily cost more (although they would), but also the initial devices. If Microsoft would even do that, which I don't think they would.

[OLE]

Well, I have a two week old iPAQ 2210... but I don't think not providing SE is a major dissappointment for me.

I think most of the hype is due to the fact, that people "want it" (=SE) just because it is released. But knowing what I want to use my PPC for (e-books, e-mail, some basic internet, file sharing + mp3/ogg player and basic spreadsheet/document editing functionality, eventually GPS), little more could be added by the SE. My iPAQ can retain its utility value for some years even without the SE...

Nevertheless, the attitude of HP *is* disappointing, but won't force me to change my iPAQ.

What I am interested in ist the fact, how long will be SE the current OS, before next version will appear -- I see SE as a minor step, who says that HP will not provide upgrades to the next milestone OS release (2004, 2005?), even for older releases?

[juni]

Well, why should they provide an upgrade for the new devices when next version of the OS comes out? If they don't promise it in writing they don't have to. It costs them money to keep customers satisfied - apparently it is cheaper to get some bad reputation and just sell new devices for a larger profit.

I have a feeling their customer base is mainly corporations who don't care one way or the other about OS upgrades - we are small potatoes compared to that...a bit like an irritating mosquito annoying a giant.

[OLE]

There is another point of view -- SE is a *minor* upgrade, but implementing it (=rebuilding a whole new ROM for the older devices) would be simply inefficient, estimating the interest of consumers (given efficiently only the landscape mode and some minor desing improvements, not so painfully needed on QVGA devices).

Personally I would be more upset, if this was not related to "SE" of the current OS, but to a really major upgrade.

[epdm]

Well, I have a two week old iPAQ 2210... but I don't think not providing SE is a major dissappointment for me.

Well, I'm in a similar situation to yours. after my Toshiba E800 broke down and since the shop couldn't get me another one, I changed my attidute towards what I need and not to what I want. So instead of getting another VGA High end device I went the other way. I decided to get the now ultra-cheap Asus 620BT + a wired GPS mouse. Unfortunatly this wasn't on stock either. But I hope to receive it next week.

I think most of the hype is due to the fact, that people "want it" (=SE) just because it is released. But knowing what I want to use my PPC for (e-books, e-mail, some basic internet, file sharing + mp3/ogg player and basic spreadsheet/document editing functionality, eventually GPS), little more could be added by the SE. My iPAQ can retain its utility value for some years even without the SE...

Well it gives assurance that their present machine is not yet outdated. This is particularly usefull in the second hand-market. I mean it's easier to sell your old PDA when it's upgraded with the latest OS, isn't it? Also this "minor" upgrade is mostly bug fixes and increased usefullness with minor alterations and that is important. I don't now how much bugs have been ironed out but it sure will be lot to justify a "Second Edition".

Nevertheless, the attitude of HP *is* disappointing, but won't force me to change my iPAQ.

Of course not. As long as the machine fullfill your needs you won't have to change it. This is a healty attidute towards this kind of fast advancing technology. It's only that newer OS-revisions (usually) have some bugs fixed which might be problem on your PPC2002-device.

What I am interested in ist the fact, how long will be SE the current OS, before next version will appear -- I see SE as a minor step, who says that HP will not provide upgrades to the next milestone OS release (2004, 2005?), even for older releases?

I think that it probably wont be long (though a year is long in the IT-industry) before we'll see a true major software release. Someone mentioned about a precedent and this is excactly that. The potential minor upgrade now is indeed no garantuee that a future major upgrade will be provided but it gives today a sign that the manufacturor still see the present hardware as important enough to provide customer satisfaction.

Or said it another way: you can be sure that if you don't have this minor upgrade now then you'll DEFINITLY won't get that major upgrade in the future.

Regards,

Manu T

[gorkon280]

Toshiba has not relesaed the update. in the US! I wish people would quite saying this. Notice here (http://www.toshiba-tro.de/unitdetails/TEDD.asp?serial=&model=PD800E-00001-FR&useraclID=10&language=English) that the address is in GERMANY. The us support page located here:

http://www.csd.toshiba.com/cgi-bin/tais/su/su_sc_modItemList.jsp?ProductMenu_0=PDAs&amp;ProductMenu_1=Toshiba+Pocket+PC&amp;ProductMenu_2=513363&amp;x=26&amp;y=16&amp;BV_SessionID=%40%40%40%401666161553.1090360385%40%40%40%40&amp;BV_EngineID=ccccadcmdfeekdecgfkceghdgngdglj.0&amp;moid=513363&amp;smoid=true&amp;ct=DL&amp;ListType=Model

show's only a USB driver download. You act like they have made a worldwide release. They have not. It's only been released in Germany, to my knowledge. Granted, the upgrade MAY be a English language upgrade, but you put your warantee in jeopardy if you try updates that are not released in your country.

That said, I am in full support of what your saying. The update should be offered. The overhead for doing this can't be as high as everyone says. The update is not that much of an advance this time and it seems, to me, that 90 percent of Pocket PC's seem to used the same wireless components and others. Write a letter to Carly, but at least try to be correct.

[jneely]

This is infuriating.
Add me to the list of VERY unhappy HP customers.

I've had my 4155 for less than 6 months. How can an upgrade not be offered???

This was my first PocketPC and it will be my last HP. This leaves a very sour taste in my mouth.

I'd have paid $50+ for the OS upgrade.

[Jaap van Ees]

Well, why should they provide an upgrade for the new devices when next version of the OS comes out? If they don't promise it in writing they don't have to. It costs them money to keep customers satisfied - apparently it is cheaper to get some bad reputation and just sell new devices for a larger profit.

I have a feeling their customer base is mainly corporations who don't care one way or the other about OS upgrades - we are small potatoes compared to that...a bit like an irritating mosquito annoying a giant.

I follow your reasoning, but do not consider us "small potatoes". Remember that a lot of us have a voice, often a strong voice in purchase decisions in this field. Would you recommend buying stuff from a company that abandons its users like HP does now? I am sure I would think twice. :!:

[MikeInDallas]

You're absolutely right about that. I already have NLYLYNDOT (sigh...) screen rotation software, so it really doesn't matter to me at this point. In the case of the Toshiba 740, as I understand it anyway, the updated OS would have given the device a significant speed boost because there were XScale optimizations added to the OS.

But your point is well taken. I gave my Dad my prior laptop (I'm a programmer...so it was a pretty decent machine) and the first thing to come out of his mouth were questions about upgrading it. He didn't even know what was in it! Eh, some folks salt their food then eat it, others taste it first, and salt it only if it's needed I suppose...

Well, I have a two week old iPAQ 2210... but I don't think not providing SE is a major dissappointment for me.

I think most of the hype is due to the fact, that people "want it" (=SE) just because it is released. But knowing what I want to use my PPC for (e-books, e-mail, some basic internet, file sharing + mp3/ogg player and basic spreadsheet/document editing functionality, eventually GPS), little more could be added by the SE. My iPAQ can retain its utility value for some years even without the SE...

Nevertheless, the attitude of HP *is* disappointing, but won't force me to change my iPAQ.

What I am interested in ist the fact, how long will be SE the current OS, before next version will appear -- I see SE as a minor step, who says that HP will not provide upgrades to the next milestone OS release (2004, 2005?), even for older releases?

[MikeInDallas]

Perhaps the problem has less to do with the OEMs and more to do with the upgrade requirements themselves. I don't know how many patches I have on my laptop's XP Professional, but there's a lot of them. When they find a problem (these days it's all about security), Microsoft releases an os PATCH. This can be done with PocketPC, and is done sometimes, but it lands in RAM, not ROM, so it affects your available memory permanently.

Perhaps a better solution would be a built-in feature in ActiveSync that would let us "burn" a new item in the image. I doubt this could be done with the way things are setup now (the ROM image is a single file, so if the app that's being patched grows or shrinks, all indexes to the other apps would have to be updated). Maybe a new layout is in order. The ROM idea is good, instant on is great, but paying full retail for a product that you soon after find isn't "the latest and greatest" isn't good either. And as things progress, as I think they will, we'll also be having virus issues on the PocketPC. :roll:

As far as the current situation goes, I think $50 (or $49.95 to speak retail) would produce a product instead of a liability, and it's within reason to most folks.

Mike

[juni]

Well, everyone can tell the "Ipaq Team" what they think about the policy here:

http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/bizsupport/categoryhome.do?categoryId=273

[netboy_my]

Imagine you have a HP Pentium3 1GHz desktop and they won't let you upgrade your OS from Windows 98 to Windows XP. Arrgghh..

[Janak Parekh]

Imagine you have a HP Pentium3 1GHz desktop and they won't let you upgrade your OS from Windows 98 to Windows XP. Arrgghh..
Well, desktops and laptops are getting closer to this. For example, you might have peripherals on your P3 that aren't supported under XP. :|

--janak

[juni]

sofane (over at brighthand) started a petition:

http://www.petitiononline.com/HPWMK3SE/petition.html

[rugerx]

50 ppc's is not a large order to HP or Toshiba.

~ 35k $ tis not much to them.

Thats why they dont care about upgrades and pissing people off.

[KimVette]

Perhaps, but if you lose 100 of those $35K orders, you impact the stock price by a few points.

If you piss off 1000 decision makers and lose 1,000 $35K PPC orders, and also get HP blacklisted at those companies because they're fed up with HP's fraudulent advertising and sh***y customer service, Carly Fiorina won't get to buy her corporate toys and her bonus will be affected at the end of the quarter, and then she'll have to lay off thousands more HP employees.

May Carly burn in Hell.

[Jaap van Ees]

http://www.petitiononline.com/HPWMK3SE/petition.html

[Sven Johannsen]

Imagine you have a HP Pentium3 1GHz desktop and they won't let you upgrade your OS from Windows 98 to Windows XP. Arrgghh..

Different concept. It's not always possible on the big machines either. I had a Gateway laptop that came with 98. I got a 2000 update from Gateway. They never offered or supported an XP upgrade. Yes I bought it from MS, but there were some driver issues. Since Gateway didn't suport the configuration, they were under no obligation to fix the driver issue. When the laptop died, and I sent it in for warranty repair, it came back with 98 on it.

There is driver and compatibility work that has to be done by the OEM to make the MS OS work on the individual PPCs. If, like the DELL X5, they released the same hardware with the new OS, then it was reasonable to expect them to provide the upgrade for older devices. HP is not releasing 5500s, 4100s, etc. with WM2003SE, so the expense of tooling the OS for those devices would likely not be recoverable, because the only sales would be upgrade sales.

[Jaap van Ees]

http://www.petitiononline.com/HPWMK3SE/petition.html

[juni]

I find it very strange that HP hasn't bothered to reply at their forum to the numerous posts concerned customers have made. :(

[Kati Compton]

I wrote a letter to Carly, and got a response, but clearly the responder, whether mechanical or human, didn't read my message. The response just pointed me to some phone numbers to get more info on the benefits of the new HP models.

[Jaap van Ees]

I find it very strange that HP hasn't bothered to reply at their forum to the numerous posts concerned customers have made. :(
Seems HP has replied. See this article on the current front page: http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=269861&sid=b949cc84f745d9f8eaff36223e43fdf3.
It is very clear: new OS's only on new models, for existing models: only small updates, no new OS's.
That does it: I am getting out of the Pocket PC-business. HP is killing it. :roll:

[Whatwereyouthinking_hp]

I have a new screen name!

maybe it should've been beatit_hp_customers

just beat it hpcustomer we took the money and laughed all the way to the bank!

ps the petition is stalled @ around 8000 unless we get a surge of petition #s followed up by calls to hp we will get nothing