Why The Clie Didn't Make It In The US

[Ed Hansberry]

<a href="http://www.engadget.com/entry/8828248613747783/">http://www.engadget.com/entry/8828248613747783/</a><br /><br />"Over at <a href="http://www.brighthand.com/article/Why_Sony_Failed_in_US">Brighthand, Larry Becker</a> tries to tackle the real reasons for why Sony is ditching out of the PDA market here in the States. Their biggest mistake he says? A misunderstanding of the biggest difference between American and Japanese consumers: the Japanese actually read the manual after the buy something, whereas Americans (and we’re as guilty of this as anyone) tend to play first and ask questions later and then get frustrated if things aren't completely intuitive."<br /><br />I think this played a part in Sony's exit of the PDA market in the US, and Europe I suppose, but the author doesn't comment on that. However, there were other factors as well. You know though, if this supposed complexity was the real problem, it really shoots a hole in the "Windows Mobile devices are too complex" theory as their market share has been climbing. :wink: We have known for quite sometime that <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/articles.php?action=expand,5971">that was a bogus argument</a>.<br /><br />• Sony forced people to use the Memory Stick slot, which kept you from using a wider range of SD and SDIO cards on the market. Not that most PalmOS devices can use SDIO anyway, as Sandisk will attest to in their SDIO WiFi issues. General consumers may not have understood the implications, but power users did, and power users are influencers. Irrespective of the OS, I always recommended against Sony if the user was going to be doing any advanced mobile computing, like WiFi.<br />• Sony <i>burned</i> existing customers by telling them the 128MB MS cards would grow in the future, only to replace it with MS Pro, which didn't work in existing devices.<!><br />• Sony played nasty with their proprietary implementation of the Compact Flash slot for their WiFi card, blocking the CF slot for use with dozens and dozens of cheap CF memory cards and IO devices.<br />• The PalmOS is <i>so</i> open as to create confusion. They have almost no standards compared to Windows Mobile, which causes program compatibility issues, hardware compatibility, and end user confusion. On a Pocket PC, email is Inbox, addresses are in Contacts, etc. and all of that works the same way on dozens of OEM devices. In Palm, email can be one of several email apps, or missing altogether. Addresses can be different on various device. There is no question Sony pushed the PalmOS to the limit, but only power users got it. I've seen people move from a Palm V or M515 to a newer Clie and be utterly lost on the new features, and some existing features totally different.<br />• PalmOS overall has lost share to Windows Mobile because of broader issues too. Full multitasking, ease of using memory cards, a plethora of CF and SD/SDIO devices that, almost universally, work on any device that has the right slot. The iPAQ 2215 and Dell Axim X5 use the same driver for the Socket WiFi card for example, as do any other CF enabled device. The only caveat is the operating system version. Sony was the trailing PalmOS maker, and their decline was sufficient to have Sony just walk away.<br /><br />It isn't any one thing, or maybe not even two or three things, but the things listed above, the finances of it (no one thinks Sony ever made a penny off of any individual Clie model) and perhaps a few things I missed led to their exit.

[Jonathon Watkins]

• Sony forced people to use the Memory Stick slot, which kept you from using a wider range of SD and SDIO cards on the market. Not that most PalmOS devices can use SDIO anyway, as Sandisk will attest to in their SDIO WiFi issues. General consumers may not have understood the implications, but power users did, and power users are influencers. Irrespective of the OS, I always recommended against Sony if the user was going to be doing any advanced mobile computing, like WiFi.

This was the biggest strike against Sony for me. Having a proprietary storage card format meant that it was a complete no-no. I folks HAD to have a PalmOS PDA I would always point them toward PalmOne. At least the SD card could be used with cameras etc.

I really don't buy the BAH complexity argument either, though it does remind me of a similar tale. If a European doesn't understand someone, he asks 'What's wrong with me?' If an American doesn't understand someone he asks 'What's wrong with him?' :lol: On that basis I'm much more US than European minded. :wink:

I would agree that with Sony it was death by many medium cuts, rather than one 'killer blow'. Still, it would be nice to see them back someday - as long as they dropped the memory stick and proprietary mindedness. :)

[dorelse]

• Sony burned existing customers by telling them the 128MB MS cards would grow in the future, only to replace it with MS Pro, which didn't work in existing devices.

That is what personally broke this camels back...when I couldn't use a 256MB MS card in my fairly new (at the time) T665...I ebay'd it, gave Sony a 1 finger salute, and never looked at their products again. It was bad enough that their memory was expensive, it was ridiculous for them to think I'd buy another Clie and an even more expensive MS Pro for it... :byebye: Sony.

[orol]

• Sony forced people to use the Memory Stick slot, which kept you from using a wider range of SD and SDIO cards on the market. Not that most PalmOS devices can use SDIO anyway, as Sandisk will attest to in their SDIO WiFi issues. General consumers may not have understood the implications, but power users did, and power users are influencers. Irrespective of the OS, I always recommended against Sony if the user was going to be doing any advanced mobile computing, like WiFi.

This was the biggest strike against Sony for me. Having a proprietary storage card format meant that it was a complete no-no. I folks HAD to have a PalmOS PDA I would always point them toward PalmOne. At least the SD card could be used with cameras etc.

I really don't buy the BAH complexity argument either, though it does remind me of a similar tale. If a European doesn't understand someone, he asks 'What's wrong with me?' If an American doesn't understand someone he asks 'What's wrong with him?' :lol: On that basis I'm much more US than European minded. :wink:

I would agree that with Sony it was death by many medium cuts, rather than one 'killer blow'. Still, it would be nice to see them back someday - as long as they dropped the memory stick and proprietary mindedness. :)

people I don't know why the hell are you complaining about memory stick ? there are other proprietary formats as rs-mmc, mini sd, t-flash etc.
memery stick is as proprietary as SD card is

btw did you know that the amount of sold SD and memory stick cards is almost the same ?

and guess why? because sony is the leader in digital photography :-)
and why would company with such a successful product put there SD cards ?

[Jonathon Watkins]

people I don't know why the hell are you complaining about memory stick ? there are other proprietary formats as rs-mmc, mini sd, t-flash etc. memery stick is as proprietary as SD card is?

Yes and the other proprietary formats are bad for the market as well. There are numerous recent PPC posts about new storage memory formats that manufactures are using to try to lock folks into propitiatory formats. Only Sony themselves make (and mostly use) memory sticks and they have low capacities and are expensive.

btw did you know that the amount of sold SD and memory stick cards is almost the same ?

Last I heard, SD Cards had 23% of the market (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12126&) and were rapidly overtaking Memory Cards. Of course, that's old data and I guess that SD and CF have an even larger share at the moment.

and guess why? because sony is the leader in digital photography :-)and why would company with such a successful product put there SD cards ?

Sony, the leader? :lol: I think Canon and Nikon make have something to say about that. :wink: Why do you think that Sony put a CF slot on it's latest camera, the SSCD 828 (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydscf828/)?

[dean_shan]

Japanese actually read the manual after the buy something, whereas Americans (and we’re as guilty of this as anyone) tend to play first and ask questions later and then get frustrated if things aren't completely intuitive."

I've found that people only read the manual if they cannot get it to work, unless you're my Mom and reads it cover to cover and then uses it.

[dean_shan]

It's not unusual to see people wearing a PDA on a lanyard around their neck in Japan

Nerd!

PS, Jason we need a nerd emoticon

[orol]

Only Sony themselves make (and mostly use) memory sticks and they have low capacities and are expensive.

what? low capacities ? over a year and half ago there was 1 GB ms pro, whereas SD maxed at 512MB. now there is over a half year 2gb ms pro out and you can barely find 1gb SD card!
plus 1 GB ms pro are cheaper then 1 GB SD cards
btw. there isn't much price difference between SD & MS cards
and last year were 512 MB MSs cheaper then 512 MB SD cards :-)

Last I heard, SD Cards had 23% of the market (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12126&) and were rapidly overtaking Memory Cards. Of course, that's old data and I guess that SD and CF have an even larger share at the moment.

the thing is that MS captured 22% of the world wide market :-)

Sony, the leader? :lol: I think Canon and Nikon make have something to say about that. :wink: Why do you think that Sony put a CF slot on it's latest camera, the SSCD 828 (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydscf828/)?

well sony put CF even in clies. but the leader in digicams is sony with around 26% of marketshare, followed by conan with around 15% and nikon with about 11%

btw. the only difference in SD & MS to me is that patents to SD holds matsu****a (e.g. panasonic, technics ..) and to MS it's sony. that's all :-)

only CF & MMC are non-proprietary formats actually, whereas sandisk owns several patents toward CF cards

[Zack Mahdavi]

Last I heard, SD Cards had 23% of the market (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12126&) and were rapidly overtaking Memory Cards. Of course, that's old data and I guess that SD and CF have an even larger share at the moment.

the thing is that MS captured 22% of the world wide market :-)

Yes, but think about how long Memory Stick has been out for. The format was introduced in 1998, and in 6 years, it's captured 22% of the market. SD, on the other hand, has been around for 3 years and already has 23%.

My digital camera is a Sony, which I bought in 2002. I regret buying it to this day.... I bought the camera thinking that Memory Stick would grow soon to 256MB+. Unfortunately, MS never got past 128MB (except for the 256MB "switch" model from Lexar), and instead Sony switched over to a completely new format, MS Pro. Sony had originally promised that Memory Stick would hit 1GB one day. That never happened.

I don't think I'll ever buy another proprietary format ever again.

[Mark Johnson]

...are you complaining about memory stick ?


I too am an unabashed MemoryStick foe. Honestly, I'm not trying to be snitty on this point, but you need to recognize just how extreme Sony was in their restrictions on the format.

Specifically, notice how Sony NEVER released a true mp3 player that used Memory Stick, the ONLY put out their "MagicGate ATRAC-3" wierd audio format. They tried to market this a a superior codec, but anyone even remotely familiar with the issue understood this had nothing to do with compression and everything to do with Digital Rights Management. Even more importantly, notice how Sony REFUSED to license ANY third-party OEM to make an MP3 player with Memory Stick. To the best of my knowledge, they never permitted anyone ever to make any Memory Stick portable music player that could read any format other than ATRAC-3.

Sure, Sony has every right to have a vision where the floppy disk is replaced by a Memory Stick card. They even have every right to "dream big" and imagine that world is where everyone is moving from Sony cameras to Sony desktops to Sony walkman devices all on Sony MS. But that dream is incredibly unrealistic.

Any company releasing a storage format that also intends to make OEM's play "Mommy may I?" with the kinds of devices they are ALLOWED to create that use it is doomed in the real world. Just ask DataPlay.

[sub_tex]

• The PalmOS is so open as to create confusion. They have almost no standards compared to Windows Mobile, which causes program compatibility issues, hardware compatibility, and end user confusion. On a Pocket PC, email is Inbox, addresses are in Contacts, etc. and all of that works the same way on dozens of OEM devices. In Palm, email can be one of several email apps, or missing altogether. Addresses can be different on various device.

The core PIM apps are the same on all Palm devices. What's not the same is any "enhancements" a vendor adds, like picture IDs, or sony funky scribble-anywhere calendar app.

About the email being one of many, I see this as a good thing. Most newbie palm users will never leave Versa Mail, and that's fine. VM is a great email app. they probably won't know about the other choices out there. But who cares? You mean to tell me all PPC users use the default apps for all PIM info and net related needs??

On windows (desktop), a standard install comes with Outlook Express. A whole lot of clueless users will use that because it's there. But MANY people do not. I don't see those options as being a bad thing at all.

You have the standard core set, then you have the rest for people who like to make the choice of software themselves.

[Ed Hansberry]

• The PalmOS is so open as to create confusion. They have almost no standards compared to Windows Mobile, which causes program compatibility issues, hardware compatibility, and end user confusion. On a Pocket PC, email is Inbox, addresses are in Contacts, etc. and all of that works the same way on dozens of OEM devices. In Palm, email can be one of several email apps, or missing altogether. Addresses can be different on various device.

The core PIM apps are the same on all Palm devices.
The Tungsten T3 had different contact databases and Palm Desktop that came with that version had warnings to that effect when working with other PalmOS devices.

http://www.palmone.com/us/products/basics/improv_org.html "New contact fields for more phone numbers, multiple email addresses, instant messenger IDs, and a website for your contacts."

I am not saying it is a bad thing to have the improvements, but it isn't core to the PalmOS so a new user looking at two new devices, a T3 and Treo 600 for example, will get different capabilities in something as simple as the contacts database. MS would never stand for having someone rewrite the core PIM database, and they shouldn't. The havoc that could cause with third party developers and desktop conduits would be mindnumbing.

Seems they also changed the contact NOTES field size and added birthdays to Appointments from Contacts. {gasp} There is a concept!

Ohhh... you can enter events that span midnight! Woohoo!!!!

:?

[whydidnt]

There were a couple of responses on Brighthand from Japanese users that disputed some of what was written in the article. They claim that a Japanese user isn't any more likely to read a manual than a US user, and that very few people wear their PDA around thier neck - though many wear their phones.

RE: the memory stick debate. I don't like the format, but I don't dislike it enough to not use it. I have a laptop, digital camera and PDA that all use the format, so it's not an issue to me. And btw my Clie plays MP3's fine off of my Memory stick.

RE: mail apps etc. It is still darn confusing in the Palm world because the core OS provides so little in the way of apps - just simple barebones PIM apps. If you buy a recent Palm One device you get VersaMail, if you buy a Clie you get a much inferior Clie Mail. I suspect other vendors bundle a different app or none at all. Not all Clie's included Doc's to go for editing Word and Excel docs, but most Palm One models do. Each vendor has hacked up the base PIM apps now so they really aren't the same. I personally think this "total anarchy" in regards to Palm devices and their included software is a major reason why Windows Mobile is gaining share. If you buy a WM device you get the same PIM, mail, browser, etc. regardless of who is selling you the device (warts and all). You may decide to add a different peice of software to provide this functionality, but you don't have to and the core components are the same. Palm has shot themselves in the foot and confused their customers by not providing more of these apps as part of the OS.

The reality of Sony leaving the market is they never took the time to listen to the US/European market and forever delivered just a little less than perfect device. Because of this they could not capture enough sales to make $ and decided that since this wasn't there primary focus it didn't make sense to chase a market they didn't "get". They get gaming - see Playstation, and I have little doubt that the PSP will be a success.

[orol]

Last I heard, SD Cards had 23% of the market (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12126&) and were rapidly overtaking Memory Cards. Of course, that's old data and I guess that SD and CF have an even larger share at the moment.

the thing is that MS captured 22% of the world wide market :-)

Yes, but think about how long Memory Stick has been out for. The format was introduced in 1998, and in 6 years, it's captured 22% of the market. SD, on the other hand, has been around for 3 years and already has 23%.

SD was introduced in 1999 just to make it clear

[orol]

• The PalmOS is so open as to create confusion. They have almost no standards compared to Windows Mobile, which causes program compatibility issues, hardware compatibility, and end user confusion. On a Pocket PC, email is Inbox, addresses are in Contacts, etc. and all of that works the same way on dozens of OEM devices. In Palm, email can be one of several email apps, or missing altogether. Addresses can be different on various device.

The core PIM apps are the same on all Palm devices.
The Tungsten T3 had different contact databases and Palm Desktop that came with that version had warnings to that effect when working with other PalmOS devices.

http://www.palmone.com/us/products/basics/improv_org.html "New contact fields for more phone numbers, multiple email addresses, instant messenger IDs, and a website for your contacts."

I am not saying it is a bad thing to have the improvements, but it isn't core to the PalmOS so a new user looking at two new devices, a T3 and Treo 600 for example, will get different capabilities in something as simple as the contacts database. MS would never stand for having someone rewrite the core PIM database, and they shouldn't. The havoc that could cause with third party developers and desktop conduits would be mindnumbing.

Seems they also changed the contact NOTES field size and added birthdays to Appointments from Contacts. {gasp} There is a concept!

Ohhh... you can enter events that span midnight! Woohoo!!!!

:?

I have to agree, that once the relaxed rules for manufactures of palm os devices were of advantage but now it makes it worse :-/

[maximus]

I really don't buy the BAH complexity argument either, though it does remind me of a similar tale. If a European doesn't understand someone, he asks 'What's wrong with me?' If an American doesn't understand someone he asks 'What's wrong with him?' :lol: On that basis I'm much more US than European minded. :wink:


Heh. That was so funny. In asia, if we dont understand something, we always ask "What's wrong with the world today?" :mrgreen:


btw. the only difference in SD & MS to me is that patents to SD holds matsu****a (e.g. panasonic, technics ..) and to MS it's sony. that's all


Actually, there is another big difference between SD and MS. The founders of SD (panasonic, toshiba, sandisk) are smart enough to make SD as open standard, while sony is dumb enough to make MS as proprietary. :mrgreen:

[Paul P]

Sony forced people to use the Memory Stick slot, which kept you from using a wider range of SD and SDIO cards on the market. Not that most PalmOS devices can use SDIO anyway, as Sandisk will attest to in their SDIO WiFi issues. General consumers may not have understood the implications, but power users did, and power users are influencers. Irrespective of the OS, I always recommended against Sony if the user was going to be doing any advanced mobile computing, like WiFi.

Panasonic/Toshiba/HP/etc forced me to use their proprietary format, Secure Digital. I prefer Sony digital cameras and when I bought my iPaq, what do you know, I couldn't use my memory stick in it. Darn, I had to get another proprietary format.

Sony has not done anything other companies haven't, case in point being other memory card formats still being introduced like xD and recently announced T-flash by Sandisk. And guess what guys, there will be even more formats from companies that affect PPCs because that is the nature of the business. You can't expect new technologies to revolve around the old. Sony stuck to their guns and Panasonic/Sharp/Toshiba stuck to theirs. The reason I don't expect Sony to make SD compatible devices is the same reason I don't expect HP to make an MS compatible device. Neither company is obligated to make the other succeed. I don't understand why people expect companies to stop competing.

Sony burned existing customers by telling them the 128MB MS cards would grow in the future, only to replace it with MS Pro, which didn't work in existing devices.<!>.

Sony dropped the ball, no question. Provided they had no other choice but to introduce a new format (due to cost or what not), it was the right decision. The upside is that they were able to introduce higher capacities and stay ahead of SD.

[marovada]

In think that the real reason for Sony's exit is the PSP. They don't want to compete against themselves and this is supposed to become their new multimedia device.

[Mark Johnson]

Sony stuck to their guns and Panasonic/Sharp/Toshiba stuck to theirs.


It is the classic corporate "game of chicken" in action. It's just an issue of Sony thinking they can push so much harder and control their formats so much more completely than competing options.

Now Memory Stick gets to join the Betamax and MiniDisc on Sony's "We thought we were big enough to make this stick in the marketplace but we were wrong" pile. It'll take years, but the handwriting's on the wall...

[Ed Hansberry]

In think that the real reason for Sony's exit is the PSP. They don't want to compete against themselves and this is supposed to become their new multimedia device.
But how many people that need a PDA will consider a PSP? Heck, no one is falling over themselves going after the Tapwave Zodiac and that IS a PDA.

I don't think the PSP had anything to do with it. A PSP and PDA may have some overlaps, butbI can't see anyone trying to decide between the two.

[Ed Hansberry]

Now Memory Stick gets to join the Betamax and MiniDisc on Sony's "We thought we were big enough to make this stick in the marketplace but we were wrong" pile. It'll take years, but the handwriting's on the wall...
Wasn't Sony the one pushing the DAT too?

[Mark Johnson]

my Clie plays MP3's fine off of my Memory stick.


Sure the Clie's do, (my old Vaio notebook would treat a Memory Stick as generic storage too.) But Sony has dictated that no stand-alone Memory Stick music players will, only ATRAC-3.

[Fishie]

In think that the real reason for Sony's exit is the PSP. They don't want to compete against themselves and this is supposed to become their new multimedia device.

Big flaw here is that the PSP has no PIM functionalities.

[cmlpreston]

Actually, there is another big difference between SD and MS. The founders of SD (panasonic, toshiba, sandisk) are smart enough to make SD as open standard, while sony is dumb enough to make MS as proprietary. :mrgreen:

How are you defining "open" in this case. There is a reason that linux can not support the SD format:

The SD Card Association product license agreement does not allow open source drivers for the SD cards. The Multimedia Card Association (which came before SD) does allow open source drivers.

copied from here (http://www.handhelds.org/projects/h3800.html).

So, what do you mean by "open".

cmlp

[Numsquat]

The MS never bothered me, the NR70V was the first (and last Clie) item I ever bought that used MS's, I bought two 128mb ones (which were cheaper than SD 128mb at that time). The size limitation did end up being a problem, switch the two around all the time (had programs on one and MP3s on the other.) Since I sold the NR, the MS's have ended up in my Sony Digicam and a JumpDrive, so they are still being used.

Sony killed itself with too many models, too much variation and not listening to their customers. They built a market share then brought out new models so often, my feeling was that they expected you to shell out the bucks for new units with minor upgrades. Too much variation like having different buttons each new round of models. Didn't listen to customers by forcing what "they" thought comsumers wanted and not keeping their consumer base.

They came up with so many innovations they just got lost in themselves, plus they never put together the "perfect" unit, which I think they could have come closer to than anyone else, they just dropped the ball.

[yslee]

I just thought the reason would just be cutting an unprofitable division that isn't going to be profitable any time soon from an unprofitable company. While we all love our PDAs, they aren't mass market items the way MP3 players and TVs are, nor are they the profitable things PS2s are.

[marovada]

In think that the real reason for Sony's exit is the PSP. They don't want to compete against themselves and this is supposed to become their new multimedia device.
But how many people that need a PDA will consider a PSP? Heck, no one is falling over themselves going after the Tapwave Zodiac and that IS a PDA.

I don't think the PSP had anything to do with it. A PSP and PDA may have some overlaps, butbI can't see anyone trying to decide between the two.

What you seem to be missing is that Sony's big innovation to PDA in the Palm platform was multimedia capability.

[marovada]

In think that the real reason for Sony's exit is the PSP. They don't want to compete against themselves and this is supposed to become their new multimedia device.

Big flaw here is that the PSP has no PIM functionalities.

I'm not so sure about a "flaw" - it's just a matter of opinion and my focus is on the future, not the present. Palm was the innovator for PIM, not Sony, and PIM has its future in mobile phones. Multimedia was Sony's innovation and that will be the focus of the PSP.

[dean_shan]

In think that the real reason for Sony's exit is the PSP. They don't want to compete against themselves and this is supposed to become their new multimedia device.

What?!? How did you get that idea? Sony is making the PSP for one thing only, media. If any next-gen handheld would be able to double as a PDA ( and I mean this loosly ) is the Nintend DS, at least that has touchscreen and a stylus.

[marovada]

In think that the real reason for Sony's exit is the PSP. They don't want to compete against themselves and this is supposed to become their new multimedia device.

What?!? How did you get that idea? Sony is making the PSP for one thing only, media. If any next-gen handheld would be able to double as a PDA ( and I mean this loosly ) is the Nintend DS, at least that has touchscreen and a stylus.

You're missing the point. Sony's PDAs were an innovation because they had better screen resolutions, mp3 playback, camera and other multimedia capability - unlike Palm devices of the time. Their popularity does not in my view have its origin in their PIM capability (ie. necessarily as PDAs per se).

The PSP is a logical step forward in this regard and is specialised for multimedia innovation.

I'm just expressing a different point of view. Thinking outside the square or just another way of saying that Sony has taken the view that the PDA has gone as far as it can go. Also, PSP is a multimedia device that doesn't compete directly with PPC.

[KieronE]

I think the argument here is being split between a number of subjects. Taken in isolation I think it's safe to say:

1. The core PalmOS was not, prior to Sony's arrival, multimedia capable. It was a low-res, single beep, none-musical system revered for its simplicity. All these things were coded on top of PalmOS 4 by Sony and then magically added as standard to Palm OS 5. There was a period, for example, when Sony's devices still only supported their own Sound API and not the suddenly "standard" API Palm OS 5. Sony blew the "zen of palm" argument out of the water - and the "the battery must last weeks" one too (although I'd love to have a device that did last that long!).

2. The Memory stick argument is, to my mind, partly true. I don't mind the format - it's small and robust. Sonys sudden announcement that my new NR70V would not support cards with more storage than 128MB did seriously annoy me though.

3. PalmOS is getting out of control - I did buy a TH55 because it has WiFi and bluetooth and a brilliant battery life. The fact that the standard organizer doesn't synch that well with Outlook is a pain. However - the Clie Organizer is so different that you can only really use it with Sony's own desktop software.

4. The fact the OS isn't multi-tasking is a problem now. It used to be enough that I could play MP3s in the background whilst continuing to work without any slow down. Now - I'm annoyed I can't download email (or write one) and check an address without shuttin down an app.

In summary - I think PocketPC's time has come - if only someone who wasn't used to drawing with big, fat grey crayons would be allowed near the OS' GUI. I mean, ugly or what? :mrgreen:

[Ed Hansberry]

In think that the real reason for Sony's exit is the PSP. They don't want to compete against themselves and this is supposed to become their new multimedia device.
But how many people that need a PDA will consider a PSP? Heck, no one is falling over themselves going after the Tapwave Zodiac and that IS a PDA.

I don't think the PSP had anything to do with it. A PSP and PDA may have some overlaps, butbI can't see anyone trying to decide between the two.

What you seem to be missing is that Sony's big innovation to PDA in the Palm platform was multimedia capability.
But no one was buying a Clie for multimedia only, or they'd have gotten an MP3 player. The PIM was a key component of the device. I think the PSP will offer about as much competition against a PDA as a car will against a computer. Both play music, but that is where it ends.

[orol]

In think that the real reason for Sony's exit is the PSP. They don't want to compete against themselves and this is supposed to become their new multimedia device.
But how many people that need a PDA will consider a PSP? Heck, no one is falling over themselves going after the Tapwave Zodiac and that IS a PDA.

I don't think the PSP had anything to do with it. A PSP and PDA may have some overlaps, butbI can't see anyone trying to decide between the two.

to me it makes sense. why? sony is an entertainment company. they wanted make CLIE that way. they always promeded CLIEs as entertainment devices. even UX50 which is one of the best PDAs out (I'd say the best one) is marked as personal entertainemnt organizer.

zodiac is PDA but it its second function. it's cheaper for such a small company like tapwave is to develop portable gaming device from PDA. they don't have enough money to develop such device like PSP is.

plus zodiac is minor player.

[orol]

Now Memory Stick gets to join the Betamax and MiniDisc on Sony's "We thought we were big enough to make this stick in the marketplace but we were wrong" pile. It'll take years, but the handwriting's on the wall...
Wasn't Sony the one pushing the DAT too?

wrong again. DAT is still used by many hi-fi fanatics, that don't even try to listen to mp3 since their inferior quality. DATs are used among professionals for mastering etc.

[orol]

In think that the real reason for Sony's exit is the PSP. They don't want to compete against themselves and this is supposed to become their new multimedia device.

Big flaw here is that the PSP has no PIM functionalities.

who cares? sony isn't focused on corporate folks but on consumers :-)

see what they did with nintendo & sega. these 2 companies were "in war" for years. then sony came and won the battle :-)

[Fishie]

In think that the real reason for Sony's exit is the PSP. They don't want to compete against themselves and this is supposed to become their new multimedia device.

Big flaw here is that the PSP has no PIM functionalities.

I'm not so sure about a "flaw" - it's just a matter of opinion and my focus is on the future, not the present. Palm was the innovator for PIM, not Sony, and PIM has its future in mobile phones. Multimedia was Sony's innovation and that will be the focus of the PSP.

Portable multimedia existed before Sony entered the market on Palms, it was crapy true but it did exist.
First Clie´s were as crappy as the Palm´s of that time in multimedia terms as well.

Sony´s INNOVATIONS are highly over rated.

[Fishie]

In think that the real reason for Sony's exit is the PSP. They don't want to compete against themselves and this is supposed to become their new multimedia device.

What?!? How did you get that idea? Sony is making the PSP for one thing only, media. If any next-gen handheld would be able to double as a PDA ( and I mean this loosly ) is the Nintend DS, at least that has touchscreen and a stylus.

You're missing the point. Sony's PDAs were an innovation because they had better screen resolutions, mp3 playback, camera and other multimedia capability - unlike Palm devices of the time. Their popularity does not in my view have its origin in their PIM capability (ie. necessarily as PDAs per se).

The PSP is a logical step forward in this regard and is specialised for multimedia innovation.

I'm just expressing a different point of view. Thinking outside the square or just another way of saying that Sony has taken the view that the PDA has gone as far as it can go. Also, PSP is a multimedia device that doesn't compete directly with PPC.

Sony has its work cut out for them with the PSP, another property format with which they will try to force the masses to REBUY what they already have in order to line up Sony´s pockets some more.

Who are they competing with?
Nintendo with a games console?
Apple with a music player?
Portable DVD players?

You tell me.

[Fishie]

In think that the real reason for Sony's exit is the PSP. They don't want to compete against themselves and this is supposed to become their new multimedia device.

Big flaw here is that the PSP has no PIM functionalities.

who cares? sony isn't focused on corporate folks but on consumers :-)

see what they did with nintendo & sega. these 2 companies were "in war" for years. then sony came and won the battle :-)

The story behind that one is very long and complex.
Suffice to say here that it was more a case of Nintendo and to a lesser extend Sega shooting themselves in the foot several times in a row.
The Playstation bussuines should have been Nintendo´s as it was Nintendo threw Sony out and created its own worst competitor.
Sony is at the point Nintendo was in 94 now and it does look like they are making the same mistakes.

[Traveller]

For the average consumer this technobabble is foreign to them- it really comes down to price. The lower the better. Palm always had lower or similar prices compared to the low end of the Clie line when it first came out. Also the "Palm Pilot" was the organizer to get. So the Clie line didn't sell well to the general masses who were really looking at a simple organizer that connects to their computers.

Power users would be buying the high end of the line. However, power users were also more discriminating and while the high end Sonys were more capable than the Palms at the time, innovative Pocket PC 2000 capable PDAs were also coming to market (iPaqs and Toshibas) for about the same price or less. The introduction of low priced but very capable Dell units took more of Sonys high end market share. At the same time, Palm started introducing new innovative PDAs that were cheaper.

I think for power users, the Palm OS is limiting and increased Pocket PC market share is an indicator of this. I speak from experience as I currently use a iPaq 5550 and a Treo 600.

Sony, in general, is over pricing themselves out of the market. Korean companies like Samsung are taking market share in their other product categories. Sure, they have a few product lines that sell well (Playstations) but the recent drop in profits indicates that Sony needs to look closely at pricing vs innovations.

[Ed Hansberry]

Now Memory Stick gets to join the Betamax and MiniDisc on Sony's "We thought we were big enough to make this stick in the marketplace but we were wrong" pile. It'll take years, but the handwriting's on the wall...
Wasn't Sony the one pushing the DAT too?

wrong again. DAT is still used by many hi-fi fanatics, that don't even try to listen to mp3 since their inferior quality. DATs are used among professionals for mastering etc.
What do you mean "wrong again?" Sony wasn't pushing the DAT? The original DAT push was for consumers too, and it failed miserably. I still use DATs for my tape backups, but as a consumer product it flopped. So, if it wasn't Sony, who was it? :?:

[AggieJon]

Now Memory Stick gets to join the Betamax and MiniDisc on Sony's "We thought we were big enough to make this stick in the marketplace but we were wrong" pile. It'll take years, but the handwriting's on the wall...
Wasn't Sony the one pushing the DAT too?

wrong again. DAT is still used by many hi-fi fanatics, that don't even try to listen to mp3 since their inferior quality. DATs are used among professionals for mastering etc.

Sure, and Beta is still used by TV stations and the like. Minidisk hasn't completely died out yet either. The fact is, though, that Sony has released a lot of great technologies, but by trying too hard to push them to take over, they lost ground and were forced to hide out in a niche to avoid being killed off completely.

[greenmozart]

Panasonic/Toshiba/HP/etc forced me to use their proprietary format, Secure Digital. I prefer Sony digital cameras and when I bought my iPaq, what do you know, I couldn't use my memory stick in it. Darn, I had to get another proprietary format.
You list 3 competitors that use the format and then call it proprietary!? HP doesn't get royalties from the sale of SD licenses so how did they "force" you to use a "proprietary" format? They manufacture devices that include both CF and SD... sounds more like a choice for you than a commandment to use their proprietary format. You also neglect to mention that SD and MMC card slots are interoperable!! I don't have to buy SD and succumb to its "proprietary" status if I don't want to. Granted MMC doesn't get any higher than 128MB (I think) currently but that will change. The point is if you want to use Sony this, you must use Sony that and Sony these and Sony those... everything you own has to be Sony... unless you don't mind carrying around several different devices and all their different storage cards and not being able to swap the cards between each device. What if you take a picture with your Sony digicam and then want to show that picture to your family on your HP PDA? Then let's say you want to e-mail that picture to your friends across the country from your Samsung cell phone? What do you do? Answer: throw away your PDA and cell phone and replace them with Sony devices just so you can use that wonderfully advanced memory stick! WOO HOO!

MS and SD are so dissimilar that to compare them as competing "proprietary" formats is ridiculous. Countless manufacturers offer a choice between CF and SD/MMC formats for storage and peripherals. If you want memory stick, you have to go with Sony devices and Sony memory and Sony peripherals. It reminds me of why I wrote Apple off years ago when deciding which PC maker to adopt. Apple does some great things and I love their design (like Sony), but I MUST have complete freedom to choose which peripherals/manufacturers/storage formats/software titles/part upgrades/etc I want. Apple and Sony are great designers (and Apple adds great UI development), but their "Us against the world" mentality only pushes me further away and into the arms of other manufacturers.

Make no mistake, the ONLY reason Sony developed the memory stick was to lock people into buying Sony devices... everything from TVs to digicams to PDAs to (wait for it) REFRIGERATORS! Yes, you can bet that Sony is on its way to producing every kind of electronic device in your home and they want to sell memory stick as the only storage and data transfer medium you'll ever want, especially if it means you can only use it in their products. It's a replay of Standard Oil buying up all the railroads a century ago. Not only do they control the product, they also control the distribution method. It's a thinly veiled attempt at monopoly.

Geez, not very opinionated, am I? :devilboy:

[Jonathon Watkins]

Geez, not very opinionated, am I? :devilboy:

Yes, but this it a *thoughts* site and you make good points so well. :wink:

Sony have done it time and time again. My folks bought a Betamax and got stung. Sony just have to have it all thier own way and that just does not work in the real world. Locked into Sony's loving embrace? Don't think so.

[dean_shan]

No greenmozart, you are right on target.

[Fishie]

Greenmozart, excellent post.

MMC goes al the way to 2 gigabyte at the moment though.

[marovada]

In think that the real reason for Sony's exit is the PSP. They don't want to compete against themselves and this is supposed to become their new multimedia device.

What?!? How did you get that idea? Sony is making the PSP for one thing only, media. If any next-gen handheld would be able to double as a PDA ( and I mean this loosly ) is the Nintend DS, at least that has touchscreen and a stylus.

You're missing the point. Sony's PDAs were an innovation because they had better screen resolutions, mp3 playback, camera and other multimedia capability - unlike Palm devices of the time. Their popularity does not in my view have its origin in their PIM capability (ie. necessarily as PDAs per se).

The PSP is a logical step forward in this regard and is specialised for multimedia innovation.

I'm just expressing a different point of view. Thinking outside the square or just another way of saying that Sony has taken the view that the PDA has gone as far as it can go. Also, PSP is a multimedia device that doesn't compete directly with PPC.

Sony has its work cut out for them with the PSP, another property format with which they will try to force the masses to REBUY what they already have in order to line up Sony´s pockets some more.

Who are they competing with?
Nintendo with a games console?
Apple with a music player?
Portable DVD players?

You tell me.

They're trying to bundle it all into the same unit so that they have no competition (ie. the others have not combined that functionality). Also, they're no longer in the PPC vs Palm market and probably thought that PPC will be the winner in the long term.

I agree with you on the lining their pockets without adding value point.

[Kacey Green]

• Sony forced people to use the Memory Stick slot, which kept you from using a wider range of SD and SDIO cards on the market. Not that most PalmOS devices can use SDIO anyway, as Sandisk will attest to in their SDIO WiFi issues. General consumers may not have understood the implications, but power users did, and power users are influencers. Irrespective of the OS, I always recommended against Sony if the user was going to be doing any advanced mobile computing, like WiFi.

This was the biggest strike against Sony for me. Having a proprietary storage card format meant that it was a complete no-no. I folks HAD to have a PalmOS PDA I would always point them toward PalmOne. At least the SD card could be used with cameras etc.

I really don't buy the BAH complexity argument either, though it does remind me of a similar tale. If a European doesn't understand someone, he asks 'What's wrong with me?' If an American doesn't understand someone he asks 'What's wrong with him?' :lol: On that basis I'm much more US than European minded. :wink:

I would agree that with Sony it was death by many medium cuts, rather than one 'killer blow'. Still, it would be nice to see them back someday - as long as they dropped the memory stick and proprietary mindedness. :)

If you look sony up in the ditionary you'd see "A Japaneese company that thrives off of proprietary products" :lol:

[Kacey Green]

This was the biggest strike against Sony for me. Having a proprietary storage card format meant that it was a complete no-no. I folks HAD to have a PalmOS PDA I would always point them toward PalmOne. At least the SD card could be used with cameras etc.

I really don't buy the BAH complexity argument either, though it does remind me of a similar tale. If a European doesn't understand someone, he asks 'What's wrong with me?' If an American doesn't understand someone he asks 'What's wrong with him?' :lol: On that basis I'm much more US than European minded. :wink:

I would agree that with Sony it was death by many medium cuts, rather than one 'killer blow'. Still, it would be nice to see them back someday - as long as they dropped the memory stick and proprietary mindedness. :)

people I don't know why the hell are you complaining about memory stick ? there are other proprietary formats as rs-mmc, mini sd, t-flash etc.
memery stick is as proprietary as SD card is

btw did you know that the amount of sold SD and memory stick cards is almost the same ?

and guess why? because sony is the leader in digital photography :-)
and why would company with such a successful product put there SD cards ?

why is sony the leader? certainly not because they have quality one of a kind non-proprietary products (they may have had one or both in the past) its because they have either locked us into one of their standards, or because most of us americans are brand-stupid, we have a good experiance with a brand and refuse to drop them untill they burn us

edit: fixed quote tags

[Kacey Green]

Japanese actually read the manual after the buy something, whereas Americans (and we’re as guilty of this as anyone) tend to play first and ask questions later and then get frustrated if things aren't completely intuitive."

I've found that people only read the manual if they cannot get it to work, unless you're my Mom and reads it cover to cover and then uses it.

I guess you're my spawn :lol: