Competition That Will Not Be

[marlof]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=484' target='_blank'>http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=484</a><br /><br /></div>Recently Steve Jobs at Wall Street Journal's <a href="http://d.wsj.com/schedule/">D: All Things Digital</a> again dismissed the ever returning rumour that Apple is about to release a PDA. But this time, he added some spice to his statement: apparently Apple had actually developed a new handheld device, but in the end they decided against bringing it to market.<br /><br />Especially now innovating Sony is dropping out of the US market, I would personally have loved to see what Apple could do with the handheld device concept. The Apple products I personally use (iBook, iPod, Airport Express Base Station) all are very well designed both from a hardware and software point of view. Next to that the integration of hardware and software usually provides a great user interface. And when Apple comes to a market they undeniably have a few innovative ideas embedded in their projects. The price (and sometimes Rev A quality) of their products isn't always competitive, but people put up with that since they feel they get a lot in return. And if for instance you look at the current trends in notebooks (clean design, widescreen), you can see that Apple has influenced their competion in a big way.<br /><br />And now, that competition will not be in the handheld device market. What do you think? Would you personally have liked to use an Apple PDA? Is the fact that Apple is not coming to the handheld market something that we should be sorry for? Or do you think the Apple touch is overrated anyhow, and should we be fine with the current players on this market?

[digitalh2o]

I think all we have to do is to look back at the Apple Newton in comparison to everything else that was on the market at the time to know that a new Apple PDA would have been the best thing out there. Too bad Apple is not coming to market, as there is really a lack of true innovation in the PDA market.

[jblodgett]

I would have liked to see just what Apple could have brought to the table. I had the original Newton messagepad, and limited as it was, it was still easy and fun to use.

You know there has to be a back room someplace out there in Cupertino which is just full of apple prototypes that have never seen the light of day.

[Perry Reed]

I think all we have to do is to look back at the Apple Newton in comparison to everything else that was on the market at the time to know that a new Apple PDA would have been the best thing out there. Too bad Apple is not coming to market, as there is really a lack of true innovation in the PDA market.

I agree completely. To this day, despite its age, the Newton still does some things better than any other device I've seen. The UI is certainly showing its age, but it has held up very well.

I think given that Newton history and their more recent history with the iPod, etc., a PDA from Apple would be a very nice device with a lot of really nifty features... and a very high price.

[silver99]

I've always admired Apple's strong will toward technology. I missed out on the Newton but I sure wouldn't miss out on any other handheld they'd have to offer.

PLEASE APPLE - IF YOU'RE READING THIS - MAKE A HANDHELD!!!

[antipex]

I have to say after two bad iBooks - one of which went through four repairs and two replacements, both treated like absolute gods - I've been skeptical of Apple's quality control and their support. After the 4th repair on the 2nd iBook's 2nd replacement, two months of voice mails to an Apple Executive Relations person I was dealing with resulted in my call returned the day AFTER my warranty expired. She wouldn't do anything for me since the warranty had expired.

Then, I sold my iBook and bought an iPod a few months ago. The thing won't even hold a decent battery charge and keeps randomly turning on even with the button lock on! Thank goodness I don't have to go through Apple's "support" with that since I got it at Best Buy with their Performance Service Plan.

With all the issues I've had with multiple Apple products and their terrible support, I'd never buy a PDA from them, and I'd hope that no other companies follow their terrible model.

[dangerwit]

I've had three Newtons (lost the last one = "stolen") and loved every one of 'em. Excellent devices, and yes, still do things better in many cases than today's PDAs.

*Phil

[jkendrick]

The Newtons are still so capable they can be regularly found on eBay.

[Jonathon Watkins]

I would have liked to see what Apple could have brought to the table. Competition certainly focuses MS's mind........

[Mojo Jojo]

I have to say after two bad iBooks - one of which went through four repairs and two replacements, both treated like absolute gods - I've been skeptical of Apple's quality control and their support. After the 4th repair on the 2nd iBook's 2nd replacement, two months of voice mails to an Apple Executive Relations person I was dealing with resulted in my call returned the day AFTER my warranty expired. She wouldn't do anything for me since the warranty had expired.

Then, I sold my iBook and bought an iPod a few months ago. The thing won't even hold a decent battery charge and keeps randomly turning on even with the button lock on! Thank goodness I don't have to go through Apple's "support" with that since I got it at Best Buy with their Performance Service Plan.

With all the issues I've had with multiple Apple products and their terrible support, I'd never buy a PDA from them, and I'd hope that no other companies follow their terrible model.

Apple has recently extended its warranty and reimbursement program to cover a lot of faults with the iBook. As the serial range for this program cover the majority of IBook G3 models they will provide free of charge a replacement model, or as the paragraph at the bottom of the page states, will reimburse your for your cost in fixing the model even from outside vendors.

Here is the information:
http://www.apple.com/support/ibook/faq/

I am sorry you had a bad experience. I would go ahead and convey the name of the representitive who handled your case to her superviser as from a few readings of other message boards your experience doesn't seem to be on par with Apple's usual help desk and support. Hope that helps.

Apple has had great if not stellar support servicefor all my needs. On the rare occassion that I had hardware issues a trip to the local Apple store and they fixed the issue on the spot, free of charge. My wife who had suffered from a faulty motherboard on her laptop had it sent out from the store and a turn around of four days before it was back. Can you post the name of the store that did your Apple work?

[Stephen Beesley]

I've had three Newtons (lost the last one = "stolen") and loved every one of 'em. Excellent devices, and yes, still do things better in many cases than today's PDAs.

*Phil

I still regularly take out one or other of my Newtons for a bit of a play. There are definatley things that they still do better than current PDAs IMHO. In fact I am in the midst of editing an article I am writing for the site comparing the Newton Notes application with a couple clearly newton inspired Pocket PC note taking offerings.

[Kati Compton]

Anything that would increase competition and spur innovation would be good. I feel like the technology market has become stale over the past year or so...

[axe]

I still have things I would love to see in my iPaq, that my Newton OMP & 110 had builtin 10 years ago.
Bringing Apple back in to the market would be super! A little innovation & 'gee-whiz' options would be fun, like the thermometer. :wink:

Anyone know of a PPC app that fixes lines & correct circles and such? It seems like such a little thing, but I have yet to see any application that exists for the PPC that can add that functionality into the Notes.

ttyl
AXE

[Kati Compton]

A little innovation & 'gee-whiz' options would be fun, like the thermometer. :wink:
Isn't a tricorder what we all TRULY want? :)

[mscdex]

I believe that given all the functionality that is now available with the iPod (Contacts, Address book, play mp3s, etc.) that they most likely aren't going to get into the PDA business.

[marlof]

I believe that given all the functionality that is now available with the iPod (Contacts, Address book, play mp3s, etc.) that they most likely aren't going to get into the PDA business.

I just don't take this for an argument. Both Contacts and Address book are way too limited to be functional for someone with a busy life. Next to that, entering appointments on the go is a no go. If they come up with a better PIM interface, and enable text entry using that scroll wheel, I'll start believing the iPod is the answer.

[Zack Mahdavi]

I would definitely love to see what Apple would bring to the PDA market. Their Newton handheld was so revolutionary, almost too revolutionary. If the device had been cheaper and smaller, I think the Newton would have caused the revolution Palm started in 1998. The Palm handheld was able to learn from the Newton's failures as well as adapt to be the most popular PDA platform ever.

Now that Palm's slowly diminishing and Sony gave up the market, I'm afraid that Microsoft's control over the market will lead to very little progress in the PDA field. It would be great to see Apple step in and reintroduce yet another revolutionary product (this time at a price we can afford).

I know it's never going to happen anytime soon, but I can hope, can't I? :)

[Mojo Jojo]

I for one would like to see an Apple PDA (would probably sync a lot better then the PocketPC) but have been hearing this and that (http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0%2C1282%2C49463%2C00.html) for far too long and have become jaded.

I can believe there was some research and probably even a prototype kicking around but the numbers probably didn't come out in the end and as stated was scrapped.

If I let my imagination run wild and dream of what I 'wish' for Apple to make in a PDA? Sure I woud want one. :D

However I am not holding my breath but instead pin hopes that in the next year, with a more open design standards in the release of the second edition OS, that the PocketPC will step out of its stagnent pattern or new products like the multimedia handhelds will reach market.

[IpaqMan2]

I think by Apple not entering into the PDA market has caused / Will cause just as big if not a bigger disappiontment in the PDAs world in general than Sony actually pulling out as they did. Even though it will mostly be unknown to the world because Apple never actually entered in PDa market the possibilities of just Apple entering alone would of raised the bar of PDAs to new levels to which all current PDA OEMs have not even dared to dream of. I personally believe Sony was a very important player in the PDA market. Even though Sony was a Palm OS OEM they brough new ideas into the market and even as importantly they were pretty much watched by all other PDA enthusiests and even many OEMs. Where as if Apple had entered into the PDA market they would of brought a BUZZ to the PDA world larger than I believe the iPod would of ever had and they would of been watched by EVERYONE, and all OEMs, ( something I personally feel the PPC community needed to push them into new designs, formfactors and functionality as all PPCs of current are reminding me of the same exact drones of Palms released in masses by the different OEMs way back before Sony came to the PDA market) but now...all those possibilities is nothing more than a nice fairy tale.

http://www.macnet2.com/more.php?id=455_0_1_0
...But only what if?? The above is what the Apple PDA was suppose to be.

[Mark Johnson]

I would have LOVED to see some real competition return to the PDA arena. Note that PDA is even (rightfully) their term, Apple deserves to be "in the game" at a minimum. It's just sad that they didn't anticipate that handwriting recognition not being "ready for prime-time" was going to be such a huge problem.

What is so sick is that Palm simple NEVER was able to get past their own marketing mantra of "simplicity." They only wanted to make a digital day-runner and dragged their heels at just about EVERY innovation point:
Move from mono to color? Who needs that for a day-runner?
Add rich sound? Nah, it's just a day-runner.
Web-browser? Who's going to surf the net on their day-runner?
All the really cool advanced Palm features are afterthoughts, bolted onto an OS that was never intended to support them.

So Microsoft was able, with a straight face, to market the PPC platform as more advanced, more capable. It was, and still is. And yet, the real tragedy of Palm (by not innovating) and Apple (by packing up and going home) letting MS rule the PDA landscape is that it has left MS free to only make PPC better than PalmOS (a low bar indeed.) MS has never had to make PPC reach anything near to it's full potential.

At first (years ago) I bought the MS-supplied argument that alternate inferior file formats (Pocket Word, not real .doc) and alternate inferior applications (Pocket Access, which we will then take away BTW) were because of limitations of the hardware. Now years have passed and it is inescapable that they continue to "keep the PPC down" where it cannot do things that threaten XP notebooks.

Redmond will willingly do NOTHING that bring the PPC to the point where you might start to think: "gee, I don't need both a notebook AND a PPC, the new units support Bluetooth HID, have SVGA, and can directly use .doc, .xls, .mdb data, so I'll just skip the notebook/desktop." No way.

Apple COULD bring some real competition back. I used to be (and in a sense still am) rather anti-Mac simply because it's a pain to maintain multiple platforms. I hate to see offices that have some Windows and some Mac because at a MINIMUM your applications and administration expertise NEVER cross over, even if your data files USUALLY do. So my "one-platform-to-rule-them-all" mindset led me to think "all-Windows desktop" and fooled me into thinking "Windows desktops = Windows PDA's."

Microsoft (not Apple, not Palm, not Linux) has DESTROYED this argument by relentlessly ensuring that Windows-in-your-pocket has almost no commonality with Windows-on-your-desktop. Different Apps, different API's, different data file formats, different peripherals, different everything.

I'm INCREDIBLY open to the idea to having a Apple PDA, or a Linux PDA, or even a Palm PDA (if they'd ever expand their feature set) because I've learned (thanks to Microsoft) there will be NO problem learning to "interoperate diverse desktop and handheld platforms." Microsoft has already proven they have always, are now, and will for the foreseeable future, provide only a "minimum commonality" for the two anyway. Widows XP and Windows Mobile Edition share nearly NOTHING other than the word "windows" so why not switch to a PDA from someone else?

It's just sad that right now the only "someone else" is Palm that STILL (astoundingly) seems satisfied selling half-the-RAM, half-the-CPU, half-the-featureset devices to go out and get creamed against the PPC.

If Apple brought out an iPDA with the same tight engineering that made the iPod, what would be my downside in switching? I'd need to install some equivalent to iTunes (iSync?) to move my contacts from Outlook to my iPDA? So one "closed device" from MS would be replaced by a different "closed device" from Apple and I'd pull ActiveSync off my desktop and use iSync instead. Would any of us really miss ActiveSync?

Microsoft NEEDS Apple to get into this game. Palm is doing NOTHING to keep them innovating.

[marlof]

Palm is doing NOTHING to keep them innovating.

I'm not so sure, I kinda like the route Handspring (currently part of palmOne) took hardware-wise with the Treo 600, and the BenQ p50 shows that the Windows Mobile OEMs are influenced by that as well. But I'd sure like to see way more competition, and esp. from innovative companies like Sony and Apple, both of which will no longer enter this worldwide handheld device market for now. Which is too bad. :(

[mscdex]

I believe that given all the functionality that is now available with the iPod (Contacts, Address book, play mp3s, etc.) that they most likely aren't going to get into the PDA business.

I just don't take this for an argument. Both Contacts and Address book are way too limited to be functional for someone with a busy life. Next to that, entering appointments on the go is a no go. If they come up with a better PIM interface, and enable text entry using that scroll wheel, I'll start believing the iPod is the answer.

True, but if you take a look at those people who are using the non-tungsten Palm handhelds, the real purpose of them is to store contacts, addresses, etc. With that aside, I still think Apple's never going to release a PDA in the near future anyhow.

[nosmohtac]

Palm is doing NOTHING to keep them innovating.

I'm not so sure, I kinda like the route Handspring (currently part of palmOne) took hardware-wise with the Treo 600, and the BenQ p50 shows that the Windows Mobile OEMs are influenced by that as well. But I'd sure like to see way more competition, and esp. from innovative companies like Sony and Apple, both of which will no longer enter this worldwide handheld device market for now. Which is too bad. :(

I agree with you on the treo, but palmOne didn't conceive this idea. Their competition came up with the treo, and I love competition. It' the driving force in ingenuity. I don't really care who is in the game, but it would be tough to argue that an Apple PDA, or for that matter a Sony PDA running something other than the Palm OS, would be great for consumers. I would love to see a PDA from Apple, even though I've never owned anything from Apple. I would also love to see a PDA from Sony running either Linux or PPC. I have never owned a Palm, but I love what Sony did with the Palm OS, and have always dreamed of what they could do for the PPC world.

edit: I forgot to add that I'm all for a Sony PDA running an OS other than Palm, provided they drop the ridiculous proprietary Memory Stick crap and go with SD, CF or both.

[Gremmie]

One thing Apple would have done--as they are pushing this--is intergration with other products. Nothwithstanding iSync, media intergration with iTunes, iCal, and .mac services would be powerful.

Also, I'll assume production of this product was profitable, that is, allowed for margin on the retail level. I believe the Apple PDA was not released because it would infringe on the iPod. I would reissue the question about the Apple PDA when Apple needs to create new marginal revenue.

[scottmag]

I don't believe Apple ever said that they actually created a PDA during the Jobs II era and did not release it. Here is the relevant portion of Walt Mossberg's interview with Steve Jobs.

Jobs: [...] I'm as proud of the products that we have not done as I am of the ones we have done.

Mossberg: What's your favorite thing you've not done?

Jobs: A PDA. We got enormous pressure to do a PDA and we looked at it and we said, "Wait a minute, 90% of the people that use these things just want to get information out of them, they don't necessarily want to put information into them on a regular basis and cellphones are going to do that." So getting into the PDA market means getting into the cellphone market. And you know, we're not so good at selling to the enterprise where you've got, in the Fortune 500, five hundred orifices called CIOs. In the cellphone market you've got five. And so we figured we're not going to be very good at that.


He specifically says that Apple did not "do" a PDA. I've seen this reported several times as Apple actually made a PDA then decided against releasing it but I don't see evidence that that is the case.

On a related note my iPod Mini has become my PDA. It does most of what I need in a PDA in terms of storage of key information and it has the added advantage of being the best portable music player on the market. I do almost all my initial capturing of data on paper these days anyway and then enter it later into the appropriate system. Not perfect of course but every PDA solution I've tried has been a compromise of some sort.

Scott

[IpaqMan2]

On a related note my iPod Mini has become my PDA. It does most of what I need in a PDA in terms of storage of key information and it has the added advantage of being the best portable music player on the market. I do almost all my initial capturing of data on paper these days anyway and then enter it later into the appropriate system. Not perfect of course but every PDA solution I've tried has been a compromise of some sort.

Scott


And why can't a PDA have a Micro Drive and be an MP3 Player?? Why haven't someone decided on making a PDA that coud just that? I mean keep the flash memory for the OS, but Why not add a Micro Drive to do Storage and play MP3s??? It's this kind LACK of innovation and BACKA$$ward step that will be the death of the PDA. The PDA market I think has seen there moment of fame. I think the next big thing will be a step backwards as we are already seeing.... mobile phones having PIM stuff... (yeah there great but sucks to enter info on), PIMs and cntacts on an iPod, going back to using day planners, or even Game devices (like Sony's soon to be released portable game device) that will have PIM stuff on...The PDA will never be what it could be.. A true portable computing device that can take the place of paper and pen, and even many Laptop Functions.. a device that at one time Palm invisioned as carrying all of your key information and wallet functions.

[Gremmie]

And why can't a PDA have a Micro Drive and be an MP3 Player?? Why haven't someone decided on making a PDA that coud just that? I mean keep the flash memory for the OS, but Why not add a Micro Drive to do Storage and play MP3s??? It's this kind LACK of innovation and BACKA$$ward step that will be the death of the PDA. The PDA market I think has seen there moment of fame. I think the next big thing will be a step backwards as we are already seeing.... mobile phones having PIM stuff... (yeah there great but sucks to enter info on), PIMs and cntacts on an iPod, going back to using day planners, or even Game devices (like Sony's soon to be released portable game device) that will have PIM stuff on...The PDA will never be what it could be.. A true portable computing device that can take the place of paper and pen, and even many Laptop Functions.. a device that at one time Palm invisioned as carrying all of your key information and wallet functions.

Easy there. First, there was a PDA with an internal Microdrive. It was called the Toshiba e550MD (MD=Microdrive). It was only released in Japan and was not outstanding. Second, there is a problem when you cram that all into one. Microdrives and a color LCD taxes battery life, also, it can be expensive. Not everyone wants a super device. It may sound great, but may not sell great.

Not sure where the pen and paper replacement comes in with the microdrive comments. People who want pen & paper replacement are not likely to want MP3 capabilities. People who want an MP3 player are willing to overlook some size.

[marlof]

Easy there. First, there was a PDA with an internal Microdrive. It was called the Toshiba e550MD (MD=Microdrive). It was only released in Japan and was not outstanding.

In fact, I believe this was a regular e550, bundled with a spare MicroDrive, not an internal Microdrive.