Sony's Clie Line Is Leaving The US

[Ed Hansberry]

<a href="http://www.bargainpda.com/default.asp?newsID=2082">http://www.bargainpda.com/default.asp?newsID=2082</a><br /><br />The <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/index.php?action=expand,28462">rumors we mentioned last week</a> of Sony abandoning the Clie line and PDA market are getting clearer. Sony will leave the US PDA market for now. The Clie line will continue in Japan though. Bargain PDA has more info.<br /><br />"Sony has informed us that they will not release any new Clie PDAs this year in the US. The Clie line will continue in Japan though. This move is of course devastating for a number of reasons. We have all the details along with five different takes on what this move means to the PDA world. We had a conference call with Sony last week to discuss what we thought was going to be about the new Clie releases, hopefully something with OS 6. Much to our chagrin, Sony started by reading a very brief statement that clearly indicated their intent to vacate the PDA space in the US for at least the remainder of this year."<br /><br />Bargain PDA also feels this will shift the balance to Microsoft and its OEM partners. "But the issues here are much more severe than Sony deciding to step away for a breather. palmOne is now stuck in a very precarious position. They’re now much like the Apple of the computing world - the only major licensee of the Palm OS. Sure there are dozens of other licensees, but combined, they don’t have the visibility or sales of Sony. The exit by Sony will certainly mean a shift in the balance of power to Microsoft. The race between Palm OS and Windows Mobile was so close already, there’s no other reasonable outcome. Surely palmOne will scoop up plenty of prospective Sony buyers, but it’s impossible to capture all of them. With Dell releasing the new X30’s at such an amazing price and HP coming out with 7 new PDAs in the next several weeks, Microsoft has to be feeling very good about their place in this market. This shift could end up hurting palmOne badly, if their next round of releases doesn’t keep pace with their past few."<br /><br />What do you think this means for the Palm OS and overall PDA market?

[scmidlap]

All Palm has now is the Treo, I guess they are glad they bought a money losing company recently (Handspring).

Wonder how Dell will view this? 8O

[Sven Johannsen]

Certainly can't do anything but help MS. Kind of a shame really, since competition is what drives advancements and innovation in the electronics market. I remember us talking about how liitle Palm advanced in the years before PPC.

It'll be interesting to see where Clie users go, if that is possible. I can't believe they were attracted to the devices for the Palm OS. I wouldn't think the 'simplicity' of the OS was what was attracting folks to the Clie. I expect it was the Sony hardware innovation. I don't see folks that were drawn to the high end Clies, going for a Zire.

Would be nice if Sony adopted the MS OS. I think we'd finally see somethng other than the norm.

[Foo Fighter]

What do you think this means for the Palm OS and overall PDA market?

I think this is potentially a fatal blow to the Palm platform, which is now down to just ONE vendor; PalmOne. Sony's name gave tremendous credibility to the PalmOS brand, and was a leader in handheld innovation (UX50). Without that, you have to wonder if PalmOne can survive alone against HP, Dell, and Toshiba (for now).

[Ziad.T]

It wasn't unexpected ... But it's always painfull ...



The End Of An Era :(.

[outdoor]

this is sad.. Sony had the first palmOS with built in mp3 player..... first with built in camera... a major innovator in the pda community....


palmone better come up with some brilliant stuff, or people will start to leave the PalmOS market soon..

[Foo Fighter]

palmone better come up with some brilliant stuff..

That..or PalmSource needs to quickly sign on a brilliant new licensee commited to the PDA market. Which I don't see happening anytime soon.

[Ed Hansberry]

this is sad.. Sony had the first palmOS with built in mp3 player..... first with built in camera... a major innovator in the pda community....


palmone better come up with some brilliant stuff, or people will start to leave the PalmOS market soon..
Sony had style - there is no doubt of that. But an innovator? I can't think of a single thing Sony did with the Clie line that some Pocket PC vendor hadn't already done - except for the ill-fated UX50 and NR/V/Z huge formfactor devices, but those didn't do anything that the HPC didn't do back in 1998.

Sony pushed the envelope in style, but not features, not in the PDA community anyway. They may have been considered "innovative" if you put blinders on and only looked at the PalmOS line. :wink:

[ntractv]

I see a Sony branded PPC in a year or so.
Just my 2 cents.

[Foo Fighter]

I see a Sony branded PPC in a year or so.
Just my 2 cents.

I don't. Sony is exiting the PDA business to focus on the PSP. PDA's were a dead market for Sony to be in. Changing OS strategies won't reverse that trend.

[Fishie]

And again I have to point attention to the fact that the PSP doesnt have any PDA functionality.

[Foo Fighter]

And again I have to point attention to the fact that the PSP doesnt have any PDA functionality.

What difference does that make? If Sony is leaving the PDA market, I hardly think they give a tinkers damn about PSP having PDA functions. That will be reserved for their Smartphone products.

[ricksfiona]

I believe Sony is what kept Palm in a competitive market and they were innovators in the field. Sony came out with integrated MP3 player, camera and that beautiful high-resolution screen. Long before Pocket PC and Palm ever did.

I see the higher-end Palm users moving over to Pocket PC. With low-middle range users, they will be moved by value.

[Shadowcat]

This is indeed sad. I think it will hurt consumers too (especially us folks here at PPCT). Innovation in the Pocket PC line has stagnated as it is. Without Sony I only see it getting worse :cry:.

[fmcpherson]

Don't count your chickens before they hatch. From what I read, Sony has simply said there won't be any new Clies for the remainder of the year. I haven't seen them way they are completely leaving the market. It seems to me that Sony is taking time to change their strategy, and I see them coming out with new products in a year or so. The question will be, when they do come back, what O.S. will they use? I wouldn't be surprised to see them stick with Symbian, or maybe even do something completely on their own.

I wonder how much the Treo's success led to this announcement? The Treo is the darling of the Palm handheld market right now, and it may take Sony longer to create a similar handheld. If this is true, it probably means that Sony severly under-estimated the wireless handheld market.

[palmsolo]

Sony pushed the envelope in style, but not features, not in the PDA community anyway. They may have been considered "innovative" if you put blinders on and only looked at the PalmOS line. :wink:

Ed, I think they did actually perform some innovation as I think they came out with the first PDAs with an integrated camera, with the NZ90 even having a 2.1 megapixel camera. They also came out with the first PDA with integrated Bluetooth and WiFi with a thumb keyboard before the 4350 followed suit. Their flip and twist design was quite innovative as it provided screen protection without a case and their metal casing was also a welcome feature.

I owned several CLIE devices after my Palm IIIc and am actually working to get a UX50 again because I still think it was simply the best Palm Powered device made to date. I always found the CLIE devices to have the best PDA display (even compared to all Pocket PC models) and I was always pleased with their quality and included applications and functionality.

I think this is a sad day for PalmSource since I don't think palmOne can compete with all the new Windows Mobile devices coming out soon. I imagine Sony will not be back with a CLIE in 2005 or later no matter how much I hope they would even though they left this up to speculation. Once they stop making them for the U.S. they will find out that the real money is in gaming and not in PDAs.

[Jonathon Watkins]

OK, so that's the US. I wonder what they are doing about Europe. With the mention of Japan only, I guess it's the same. :?

Competition is good. Sony leaving the market will leave a gap. I wonder who can take advantage of it......

[Fishie]

And again I have to point attention to the fact that the PSP doesnt have any PDA functionality.

What difference does that make? If Sony is leaving the PDA market, I hardly think they give a tinkers damn about PSP having PDA functions. That will be reserved for their Smartphone products.

Sony is NOT leaving the PDA market in Japan, people here seem to think the Clie line is being fased out entirely while that is NOT the case for now.

[Fishie]

Sony pushed the envelope in style, but not features, not in the PDA community anyway. They may have been considered "innovative" if you put blinders on and only looked at the PalmOS line. :wink:

Ed, I think they did actually perform some innovation as I think they came out with the first PDAs with an integrated camera, with the NZ90 even having a 2.1 megapixel camera. They also came out with the first PDA with integrated Bluetooth and WiFi with a thumb keyboard before the 4350 followed suit. Their flip and twist design was quite innovative as it provided screen protection without a case and their metal casing was also a welcome feature.

I owned several CLIE devices after my Palm IIIc and am actually working to get a UX50 again because I still think it was simply the best Palm Powered device made to date. I always found the CLIE devices to have the best PDA display (even compared to all Pocket PC models) and I was always pleased with their quality and included applications and functionality.

I think this is a sad day for PalmSource since I don't think palmOne can compete with all the new Windows Mobile devices coming out soon. I imagine Sony will not be back with a CLIE in 2005 or later no matter how much I hope they would even though they left this up to speculation. Once they stop making them for the U.S. they will find out that the real money is in gaming and not in PDAs.

The Sharp Telios/Intermec 6651 came before that and yes I happen to think that the Telios is as pocketable as the NR series, IE not at all.

[Snail]

This is very sad... As the proud owner of a UX50, I was looking forward to the "next big thing" from Sony. The PSP looks fantastic, and I imagine it will sell by the truckload, but I can't help wondering if Sony are missing a trick by not integrating gaming / PDA / phone functionality - god knows they could do a much better job than Nokia!

Oh well, the UX50 will become yet another curiosity, much like my box of old Newtons! :roll:

[Scott R]

What's all this about palmOne being the only licensee? The Tapwave Zodiac will be hitting retail shelves this month and they will continue to roll out via new retailers later this year. 480x320 screen, dual SD slots, Bluetooth, Yamaha sound chip. Good high-end PDA stuff at a price that's lower than similarly equipped PDAs. That said, if they want to make a dent in the gaming console market, they'll need to get the Zodiac 1's price down to about $200. What I'd really like to see them do, though, is drop the 128MB Zodiac 2 and replace it with a 4GB microdrive model for about $350. That price is doable and it could make it a real iPod killer.

Scott

[Paul P]

Man, was I wrong. :oops: Rumours usually turn out to be true these days. PalmOne needs to think Apple and step forward with other products.

[Falstaff]

What's all this about palmOne being the only licensee? The Tapwave Zodiac will be hitting retail shelves this month and they will continue to roll out via new retailers later this year. 480x320 screen, dual SD slots, Bluetooth, Yamaha sound chip. Good high-end PDA stuff at a price that's lower than similarly equipped PDAs.

Pa1mOne is the only significant POS liscensee. Tapwave and Garmin still only have niche markets and very small market shares. The Zodiac may gain some ground soon though with their new model. It looks like an incredible device, and they know their market, I saw ads for it at the Bookstore when I visited Washington Univ. earlier this year. I think they can make some headway, but they won't be the salvation for PalmOS. Plus, if they continue using their highly modified version of POS, that may make some Palm users less likely to switch over.

[Ed Hansberry]

The Zodiac may gain some ground soon though with their new model. It looks like an incredible device, and they know their market, I saw ads for it at the Bookstore when I visited Washington Univ. earlier this year.
Question: How do you know they know their market? The CEO came from Palm and had experience in other technical fields, but as Nokia proved, if you don't have experience in handheld gaming, it is not a given you know your market just because you make a handheld gaming device.

Their VP of Marketing also came from Palm and before that, messed with HP Pavilion PCs and then Apple before that.

Their VP of Sales also came from Palm and then Apple before that.

I'd say this is a speculative company that claims to know their market - and may wind up knowing it, but in reality, their past gives absolutely no indication that they do. Now, if they were from Nintendo and had some GameBoy experience, that would be a different story.

[Darren Behan]

My two cents:

Personally, if Sony came out with a PPC OS Clie, I'd buy it in a sec. I'm sure there are a lot of arguements for and against Sony being an innovator but IMHO they really definitely had style. Some of those Clie's were really good looking machines with innovative form factors. Seems for the time being we're stuck with the PPC brick (iPaq 1940 series being the only exception that I know of and that too apparently not for long based on what I can see from the new HP offerings) and I doubt that will be at all improved by Sony exiting the market.

db

[bjornkeizers]

l think im going to have a good cry now :(

[arnage2]

This means that palm os will slowly die, and ppc will only flourish

[tthiel]

That is not an apt comparison. Palm desperateloy needs licensees while Apple specifically does not want licensees and in fact killed all licensing years ago. Anyway Sony erred in making consumer based PDA's.
The main market focus has to be business as thats where most PDA's are sold and where the market is.


jkm[quote="Ed Hansberry"]http://www.bargainpda.com/default.asp?newsID=2082
They’re now much like the Apple of the computing world - the only major licensee of the Palm OS. quote]

[Scott R]

Question: How do you know they know their market? The CEO came from Palm and had experience in other technical fields, but as Nokia proved, if you don't have experience in handheld gaming, it is not a given you know your market just because you make a handheld gaming device.Mitzi McGilvray is Tapwave's Executive Game Producer. She's held production roles at Activision, Maxis, Tengen, Electronic Arts, and Slam Dunk Productions.

Additionally, Tapwave's handheld experience is a good thing, IMO, as they, Nintendo (with the DS), and Sony (with the PSP), all claim to be targetting the older market. Yet, the Nintendo DS and Sony PSP offer no productivity functionality, nor are they open platforms with rich programming IDEs. Both also require carrying around cartridges. Carrying around a bunch of cartridges is fine for kids with backpacks, but it doesn't work for the older market.

Tapwave's problem in making a dent in the gaming market has more to do with high price (for a gaming console, anyway - it's actually priced pretty low feature for feature compared to other high-end PDAs), a limited selection of big-name games, and lack of retail availability. The last point will be addressed this year and a few big name games will trickle out as the year progresses. If they can cut the price somewhat, that will help as well.

I don't expect them to be able to compete with the likes of the Nintendo DS. Nintendo has tons of big gaming houses signed on and the rumored DS price will be under $200. It will be a hot seller for the younger market, and older gamers who don't mind carrying it around along with a bunch of other gear will get one as well.

OTOH, I think the Zodiac has the potential to have a much bigger impact within the PDA market.

Scott

[ruarch5]

Is it a coincidence that Sony changes it' PDA roadmap at about the same time that the PPC OS "and" hardware finally gets to no. 1? A lot of people here have said that sony has had the best hardware of all PDA's and I totally agree. Not any more. If u dont agree with this statement, feel free to look up a Toshiba e800 running SE at a computer store sometime...It might change ur mind too. A really strong indication that it really is just a re-direction would be the new focus on "mobile" entertainment products. I think that maybe there is realisation that the POS OS cant deliver what the hardware is capable of without major tweaking and optimisation. All at Sony's expense of course...A lot of development time and resources.

If u do get a chance to play with a Tosh...imagine a Sony "Style" body around that screen, decent gaming buttons, dual wireless, a detachable analog joypad...and the flexibility of SE.

[twalk]

I don't think that this announcement has anything to do with Palm/PPC marketshare numbers. I think that it's just about everyone in the industry losing money, having a shrinking market that doesn't look as if it will grow any time soon, and their primary focus being entertainment, not computers.

To be blunt, why throw good money after bad?

I view this as being really bad for the PDA market in general. Sony/PalmOne/HP/Dell/MS/etc exist to make money. If there isn't any money in PDAs, then eventually they'll stop making them. (I've been thinking for quite a while that MS views PPC as just a short term solution because of the lack of profit potential, to be replaced long term by MS smartphone & palmtop XP.)

[mangochutneyman]

Is it a coincidence that Sony changes it' PDA roadmap at about the same time that the PPC OS "and" hardware finally gets to no. 1? A lot of people here have said that sony has had the best hardware of all PDA's and I totally agree. Not any more. If u dont agree with this statement, feel free to look up a Toshiba e800 running SE at a computer store sometime....

I wouldn't crow too loudly yet. I wouldn't be suprised if Toshiba didn't also leave the PDA segment before the end of the year. Heck both Toshiba and Dell have smaller market share than Sony does, and Sony is the one which decided to leave!! 8O

[guinness]

I don't think that this announcement has anything to do with Palm/PPC marketshare numbers. I think that it's just about everyone in the industry losing money, having a shrinking market that doesn't look as if it will grow any time soon, and their primary focus being entertainment, not computers.

To be blunt, why throw good money after bad?

I view this as being really bad for the PDA market in general. Sony/PalmOne/HP/Dell/MS/etc exist to make money. If there isn't any money in PDAs, then eventually they'll stop making them. (I've been thinking for quite a while that MS views PPC as just a short term solution because of the lack of profit potential, to be replaced long term by MS smartphone & palmtop XP.)

That's my theory as well, and Symbian-based smartphones are getting more powerful and advanced, why not just cram everything into a single device? Turn current PDA's into the portable media players and use smartphores for phone calls and PDA functions.

I also see Sony leaving the US PDA market as a bad thing, competition is good for MS, they dragged their heels for a very long time on the PPC, Sony was the only POS maker to push them along.

[Lucky Bob]

You know, it may actually turn out that this could do some good for PalmOne. If the majority of Clié users want to stick to the Palm OS, PalmOne's marketshare will probably go up.

It seems that PalmOne has been compared to Apple many times. I am not sure that things will turn out the same way, though. For one thing, PalmOne has both name recognition (Palm) and a major retail presence. But the biggest thing PalmOne has on its side right now is pricing. Although Dell has tried to keep its prices low, they still haven't been able to get down to the prices PalmOne has.

[bhkien]

I think Palm was success because its simplicity not by its powerfulness. And Sony had derailed from the "Zen of Palm".

If PalmOne come back to the simplicity, it will get more profit.

[ruarch5]

Sony leaves to concentrate on entertainment devices....


What exactly is the difference between a portable gaming/photoviewer/ movie player, and a PDA?

Isnt it just a problem of marketing...when I've spoken to people about PDAs, they generally think of them as "Palms". Something to keep addresses on and jot notes down on. I wonder what kind of product people would think I had if I said I'd bought myself a new Vaio pocket?

As far as I can see...the differences in the product description doesnt change the fact that they are esentially the same thing.

[orol]

You know, it may actually turn out that this could do some good for PalmOne. If the majority of Clié users want to stick to the Palm OS, PalmOne's marketshare will probably go up.

It seems that PalmOne has been compared to Apple many times. I am not sure that things will turn out the same way, though. For one thing, PalmOne has both name recognition (Palm) and a major retail presence. But the biggest thing PalmOne has on its side right now is pricing. Although Dell has tried to keep its prices low, they still haven't been able to get down to the prices PalmOne has.

not true, many palm os users (including me) where loyal palm os fans but just because of sony. palmOne might have good prices but inferiour products compared to sony.

[bjornkeizers]

not true, many palm os users (including me) where loyal palm os fans but just because of sony. palmOne might have good prices but inferiour products compared to sony.

That's what I keep trying to tell people! Palm is *nothing* like sony! It's like saying a Porsche owner would happily go back to driving a VW beetle!

Unless Palm comes up with hardware to match my TH55, it's bye bye palm for good. I will *not* go back to palm!!!!!

[Ed Hansberry]

Well, investors aren't happy with this. PalmSource is down almost 15% from their Friday close, before this became news. PalmOne is actually up - to be expected as at least some Clie buyers will be buying PalmOne devices in the future rather than Sony.

[Rolrbl8der]

This isn't just a reflection on the Palm vs. PPC battle... it's bad news overall for the entire PDA industry. To make things worse, I've heard that Best Buy and other retailers are significantly dropping their assortment of PDAs (PPCs included) in the stores. As sales continue to drop off, others will abandon and run for the hills. Though many of us die hard PPC users would like to think the Sony news is a coup for the PPC platform, it is in fact not... Will the PDA turn out to be a fad and have the same demise as the pet rock, razor scooter, :cry: pagers, etc?

[Fishie]

You know, it may actually turn out that this could do some good for PalmOne. If the majority of Clié users want to stick to the Palm OS, PalmOne's marketshare will probably go up.

It seems that PalmOne has been compared to Apple many times. I am not sure that things will turn out the same way, though. For one thing, PalmOne has both name recognition (Palm) and a major retail presence. But the biggest thing PalmOne has on its side right now is pricing. Although Dell has tried to keep its prices low, they still haven't been able to get down to the prices PalmOne has.

Compare the Dell´s with similar featured PalmOne machines and you will see that they compare quite favourably.

Toshiba e400 at 199$ as well kicks the pants of a Tungsten E.

Off course you dont have a PPC that costs 80$ but thats becouse the minimum PPC spec these days is still higher level then a mid level PalmOS machine.