Garmin to Pocket PC Owners: Sorry About the Palm Thing - Here's Something For You

[Pat Logsdon]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.brighthand.com/article/Garmin_cf_Que_for_Pocket_PC_Unveiled' target='_blank'>http://www.brighthand.com/article/G...ket_PC_Unveiled</a><br /><br /></div><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/2003/logsdon_20040506_garminCFgps.jpg" />Apparently not satisfied to stay in <a href="http://www.garmin.com/products/iQue3600/">Palm-land</a>, Garmin has expanded their line of PDA solutions to include a Compact Flash GPS unit for the Pocket PC. The unit has a hinge that allows the antenna portion of the card to swivel up and down (just like the <a href="http://www.semsons.com/haicmulgpsre.html">Haicom line</a> of receivers), but this card has something no other card does - 64mb of built-in memory.<br /><br />Brighthand reports that "the module will include the Que software application with points of interest, electronic mapping, automatic route generation, configurable road/area avoidance, and voice-guided directions. Que is also able to navigate to addresses stored in the Pocket PC Contacts application. Mapping details include highways, major streets, lakes, coastal waters, and borders for North and South America, Europe, Africa, and the Pacific Rim. The module also features 64MB of memory, enabling it to store detailed map data from the US and Canada MapSource CD included with the package. Additional MapSource CDs for US fishing lakes, offshore navigation, and others are available for a separate purchase."<br /><br />While this is pretty nifty, I'd like to see this in a bluetooth format. Compact Flash seems to be fading away, but bluetooth is becoming more common. My guess is that it won't be long before we see one of the current BT GPS manufacturers come out with their own units with built-in storage. <br /><br />That covers the hardware side of the package. Although I've used several different PPC GPS mapping applications (<a href="http://www.deluo.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&amp;Store_Code=DE&amp;Product_Code=RSSA&amp;Category_Code=GS">Routis</a>, <a href="http://64.208.105.215/home.jsp?s=1083791379968260&amp;p=&amp;q=612.1411726866977">Mapopolis</a>), I've never used a Garmin unit. Has anyone here used both? How do the maps compare?

[PPCRules]

While this is pretty nifty, I'd like to see this in a bluetooth format. Compact Flash seems to be fading away, but bluetooth is becoming more common.
When I plug in a compact flash accessory, it "just works"; you could say it's a mature technology. When I and many others try to do bluetooth, there is so much clunky stuff in the way that may or may not work; not mature. So while the promises of bluetooth are intriguing in an application such as this, I'd opt for dependability. I don't want to be stuck out someplace trying to discover my Bluetooth device so I can get home.

Compact Flash is "fading away" because too many of you people said "I don't need that for anything; give me a single SD slot". If buyers had more forsight, the CF-less devices would have never sold well enough for vendors to even offer a second model.

[rhmorrison]

Compact Flash is "fading away" because too many of you people said "I don't need that for anything; give me a single SD slot". If buyers had more forsight, the CF-less devices would have never sold well enough for vendors to even offer a second model.
:grouphug: AMEN to that brother!! :way to go:

[BarryB]

One of the reasons I bought my 2210 was the CF *and* SD slot. I had a CF wi-fi card that I didn't want to just throw away and pay more for built-in wi-fi. I also felt that having two slots would make me more flexible and adaptable.

So I'm interested in this Garmin product. I really like the idea of onboard storage with it. That makes is so much more modular. Everything about the GPS is contained within the GPS. Very nice.

[SeanH]

So while the promises of Bluetooth are intriguing in an application such as this, I'd opt for dependability. I don't want to be stuck out someplace trying to discover my Bluetooth device so I can get home.
It is true that some people have had problems pairing a Bluetooth device with their PDA. These problems will be less common over time. Once a Bluetooth is paired it will pair in the future with very few hassles and the connection is often less then 1 second. A larger problem is how long the GPS’s Time to First Fix (TFF) is. Assuming your GPS has good view of the sky most cards take minutes to lock. I have read a lot of post here were people say there GPS CF card takes 20 second for TFF. The chips sets used to build a GPS do not claim those kinds of TFF times. A serial GPS that is given constant power will start working within 1 second of plugging it in the PDA. A Bluetooth GPS with constant power will take 1 second to pair 1 second for the signal. A CF GPS takes minutes from the time the PDA is powered up because its powered from the PDA. The other huge advantage a serial or a Bluetooth GPS unit has is it can be mounted on the dash and the PDA can stay closer to the user. This makes it easy to read. A CF GPS requires an external antenna or the PDA and CF card have to be mount on the dash.

Compact Flash is "fading away" because too many of you people said "I don't need that for anything; give me a single SD slot". If buyers had more forsight, the CF-less devices would have never sold well enough for vendors to even offer a second model.

CF device sold so well because they used very common interface on both the PDA and the peripheral. PCMCIA is a compact version of a PC ISA slot. CF is a compact version of a PCMCIA card. This made it very easy for vendors to move there products from ISA to PCMCIA to CF. With PDA and laptops intergrading WiFi and Bluetooth on the main board there is no need for PCMCIA, Cardbus or CF cards. On a PDA you can use SDIO for storage, built in WiFi for networking and Bluetooth for all accessories.

Sean

[AZMark]

Memory in a BT device? Boy would that be slow!!!

BT is great, and much more mobile between OS's. Many CF cards from previous CE incarnations are now useless with PPC2003/SE. Being a serial cord replacement my guess is that current BT devices will be able to be used with BT hosts for years to come and across varied platforms.

Dell Truemobile CF Bluetooth card, no longer works with Dell X5 2003.
WiFi card from Belkin no known SE drivers.

[sundown]

What would be just a little better is if the memory was removable - maybe a SD card or something. What happens when 64 MB isn't enough anymore?

[hamishmacdonald]

SeanH, thanks for that information about start-up time and signal acquisition.

God, the people on here know a lot of stuff! I really appreciate what an incredible resource this community is.

[L.Rentz]

You got that right. Everyone here has saved me a lot of time and effort with their input. Its always better to have multiple opinions to get the total scoop.

[Pat Logsdon]

When I plug in a compact flash accessory, it "just works"; you could say it's a mature technology. When I and many others try to do bluetooth, there is so much clunky stuff in the way that may or may not work; not mature. So while the promises of bluetooth are intriguing in an application such as this, I'd opt for dependability. I don't want to be stuck out someplace trying to discover my Bluetooth device so I can get home.
You make some good points, but I have to disagree with them. :wink: My last PPC was a Dell Axim X5, and I had a Haicom folding CF GPS for it. It was a great unit, but the Fortuna Clip-On BT unit I have now is far superior. As SeanH mentioned, I would have to wait for at least a minute and frequently more before I'd get a lock and I could start driving. With the Fortuna, I just open the map application, the BT Manager launches, I double tap the BT GPS icon to connect, and I'm done. It takes maybe 15 seconds from turning on the GPS to having a signal, being connected, and ready to go. It's been extremely dependable for me. :mrgreen:

Compact Flash is "fading away" because too many of you people said "I don't need that for anything; give me a single SD slot". If buyers had more forsight, the CF-less devices would have never sold well enough for vendors to even offer a second model.
I never said that - I think it's more of a cost/space issue. Devices are getting smaller, and SD is smaller than CF. It's also cheaper to put one slot in a device than it is to put two in. I just see it as one of those inevitable technological shifts - floppies die and get replaced by keychain drives, ISA dies and is replaced by PCI, etc. It's not anyone's fault, it's just a natural evolution.

[jonathanchoo]

[quote="AZMark"]Memory in a BT device? Boy would that be slow!!!
quote]

Yeah, but with no GPS taking up the CF slot you can use a real flash memory in the slot!

But CF takes up too much space for PDAs. Unless there are CF batteries then I would not bother.

[Craig Horlacher]

Compact Flash is "fading away" because too many of you people said "I don't need that for anything; give me a single SD slot". If buyers had more forsight, the CF-less devices would have never sold well enough for vendors to even offer a second model.

Mod +1 (TruDat)

[PPCRules]

Mod +1 (TruDat)
Huh?

[Mobile_Bear]

PPCRules:

Man. You are soooo right! My level of confidence on a CF accessory is very high, due to the fact that the worst problem it's solved with a driver update, at the most.

BT is far from getting at that level, and it is going to be a while for SD to be cheaper.IMO.

[denivan]

Weird, I have a Haicom Serial GPS attached to my iPaq. When both iPaq en GPS are powered by the car, off course they start communicating with each other immediately, but it takes at least one minute for the Haicom to get a fix, sometimes it takes five or more minutes. The longest I've experienced was 15 minutes ! before the Haicom had a fix. I'm 100% positive that nothing's wrong with the connection between the Haicom and iPaq, because the Haicom has a LED, so I can see if it has a fix or not.

Do you guys think my GPS receiver is lousy, or could it be another problem ? Btw, my Haicom is advertised as a '12 channel' receiver, but the max I have gotten is 8 satellites at a time, usually it's around 6 or so.

Ivan

[SeanH]

Weird, I have a Haicom Serial GPS attached to my iPaq. When both iPaq en GPS are powered by the car, off course they start communicating with each other immediately, but it takes at least one minute for the Haicom to get a fix, sometimes it takes five or more minutes. The longest I've experienced was 15 minutes ! before the Haicom had a fix. I'm 100% positive that nothing's wrong with the connection between the Haicom and iPaq, because the Haicom has a LED, so I can see if it has a fix or not.

Do you guys think my GPS receiver is lousy, or could it be another problem ? Btw, my Haicom is advertised as a '12 channel' receiver, but the max I have gotten is 8 satellites at a time, usually it's around 6 or so.

Ivan
Everything you mentioned is normal. That will happen with all GPS units, CF, Serial or Bluetooth. I would recommend plugging the GPS into a constant power source so it always gets power and keeps the lock. If your car lighter does not always stay on you can buy a kit to wire a cigarette lighter socket to your car fuse box. Once the GPS has a fix you can unplug the serial GPS until you need it again. The next time you plug it in it will show your location in less then 1 second. A Bluetooth GPS works the same way but you do not have to connect it to the PDA using wires. With a CF GPS or a GSP built into a PDA you have to wait for that GPS to lock every time because it powers down the GPS when the PDA is put in standby.

Sean

[denivan]

I would recommend plugging the GPS into a constant power source so it always gets power and keeps the lock.
Can't this drain the car battery or does the GPS consume very little power ?

If your car lighter does not always stay on you can buy a kit to wire a cigarette lighter socket to your car fuse box.

When I turn off my car, the GPS powers down (led goes off), so I assume my car lighter doesn't allways stay on. I didn't even know some car lighters did that ;)

Once the GPS has a fix you can unplug the serial GPS until you need it again. The next time you plug it in it will show your location in less then 1 second.

I'm sorry, but my english isn't good enough to understand that quite completely I guess ;). By 'unplugging' the serial GPS, do you mean unplug from the iPaq ? So the purpose would be that the GPS is constantly powered (even though the car is off) en when I detach the ipaq and attach it later again, I would have a fix immediately because the GPS still had power, right ?

Too bad I'm terrible at electronics, I have no idea how I could manage to give my GPS constant power...if it's too much of a hassle, I think I'll try to live with the long wait times ;)

Kind regards,
Ivan

[Altaman]

I like my Pharos IGPS-360, it is a serial/USB GPS and if I want I can get a CF card to hook the GPS to it so I can have GPS away from the vehicle (The only problem is I have my pas on the MD CF card :( ). I have contemplated getting a SD memory card but I have heard too many ppl having problems with SD cards that I have shied away.

I do like the option of having both CF and SD in my PPC, gives me more options for expansion...If I was to buy a new PPC and did not have any of my accessories I would still look for a CF device before a SD one however.

Alt

[disconnected]

My car supplies power to the lighter even when off, and I just assumed all cars were like that. The last few cars I've rented did NOT supply power to the lighter when off, and it's a real pain. I thought it was just something that the rental companies did to prevent battery problems, although I don't think the GPS uses much power, and it's never caused a problem with my own car. At home, my Fortuna bluetooth GPS stays on all the time. I think the Fortuna is exceptionally slow to get a fix after it's been turned off. As long as it stays on, even if it is inside a garage overnight and can't see any satellites, when it's back outside it gets a fix almost immediately. If it's turned off, even for just a few minutes, it takes several minutes to get a fix; if I'm too impatient to wait and just start driving, it can take twenty minutes or more. This has been a real annoyance while travelling with a rental car, because even if we just stop at a fast food restaurant for a few minutes, it takes forever to get a fix.
The Fortuna, unfortunately, has another quirk -- it can use AAA batteries, but if it detects that it has batteries inserted, it ignores the power from the lighter, and runs down the batteries. This causes the ridiculous scenario of having to constantly pull the batteries in and out.

[SeanH]

Can't this drain the car battery or does the GPS consume very little power ? .It draws very little power.
By 'unplugging' the serial GPS, do you mean unplug from the iPaq ? So the purpose would be that the GPS is constantly powered (even though the car is off) en when I detach the ipaq and attach it later again, I would have a fix immediately because the GPS still had power, right ? .Correct

[SeanH]

The Fortuna, unfortunately, has another quirk -- it can use AAA batteries, but if it detects that it has batteries inserted, it ignores the power from the lighter, and runs down the batteries. This causes the ridiculous scenario of having to constantly pull the batteries in and out.
That’s too bad a company would design a product like that. It would be nice to use the car for constant power but when power is removed it goes into a very low power slow sample rate mode to keep a locked. Then when the car is turned back on it comes back to a normal operating mode.

I am an Engineer have seen the Dilbert theory in action many times. You can tell management and marketing that their ideas are foolish but they never listen.

Sean

[Pony99CA]

The Garmin unit seems very cool, but I'd like to see more storage for maps. I want street level maps for at least the entire states of California and Arizona, including points of interest. It would also be nice if the software was included on the card for quick installation. Imagine not having to install from a CD.

I prefer Compact Flash to Bluetooth because it enables me to treat the device as one unit. I can use the GPS out of the car without having to take two pieces (and trying to find a place to store the GPS unit).

However, I realize that Bluetooth does have its advantages -- especially the ability to position the GPS unit and the display separately.

Steve

[alizhan]

What I'd really like to see is a decent WiFi GPS. Even a sled/dongle which converts an existing serial/USB/CF/whatever GPS to WiFi would be acceptable. It's not that hard, really. Serial/UDP gateways are pretty easy to set up, and it would allow any number of devices to utilize the GPS simultaneously. Why WiFi? Because WiFi is designed to allow broadcast, and doesn't have all the baggage that BT seems to carry. That, and my PDA has WiFi but not BT. :)

I heard noises about someone developing a device like this back when the BT GPSs were first coming out, but have heard nothing since.

[SeanH]

What I'd really like to see is a decent WiFi GPS. Even a sled/dongle which converts an existing serial/USB/CF/whatever GPS to WiFi would be acceptable. It's not that hard, really. Serial/UDP gateways are pretty easy to set up, and it would allow any number of devices to utilize the GPS simultaneously. Why WiFi? Because WiFi is designed to allow broadcast, and doesn't have all the baggage that BT seems to carry. That, and my PDA has WiFi but not BT. :)

I heard noises about someone developing a device like this back when the BT GPSs were first coming out, but have heard nothing since.
WiFi is for Networking. It is possible for software to emulate a serial port over UDP like you mentioned. This company does a great job running serial ports over ethernet http://www.quatech.com/products/sds.php The problem is with TCP/IP you need a DHCP server to give the PDA and the GPS IP’s. You can force a device with an IP but another device might have that same IP on your PDA/GPS network. There is not a standard for serial ports over Ethernet. The company Quatech has its own drivers for Windows to map the serial stream to a com port. There is not standard for TCP/IP to give peripherals IP’s because it was never meant to do that. I predict it will never be a standard. You will not see ethernet based keyboards, mice, GPS units or other peripherals that use low speed USB or Bluetooth.

Sean